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Welcome back everyone. On our last episode we talked with Dr. Jasine Moreno and Dr. Elizabeth Wells-Beede about nurse educator competencies and the transition from clinical practice to academia so thank you for joining us for part two. What I always go back to is the systems issue.
This is this is a huge systems issue and I think offering two solutions but then you think about like I was in a course on health equity and anti-racism and the solution was mentoring, you know but how do you support the mentor in terms of release time getting them prepared for a role such as that because it is a formal role that you need some kind of orientation and socialization to and what system issues are there related to mentoring? Is there protected time? Do they have
released time? Is this acknowledged for their career growth and things of that nature because a lot of times I think about my mentors, it's always been informal and they've been nice enough to take the time to help me here and there but it's not a formalized role.
So how do we institutionalize that to make sure we have systematic support built in and you know all and also making it equitable for community colleges, for university, you know, everyone because I come from a community college background and we don't have that structure always. How does that look and how do we make it formalized and really operationalize this process?
Even when we talk about professional development, are there funding and then when there is funds like I ask people, hey how come you're not coming to this conference. They're just busy. They're overwhelmed, right. So how do we make it happen for them? I think all of us we've kind of had this affinity to simulation so we've had some similar mindsets and we've pursued, but how do we get the other other elements, the other pieces of it that?
I think that's a really great question. I think that's probably one of the big elephants in the room because if you if there isn't that support for both the mentee and the mentor then you are placing more burden on the person that's mentoring because you can't make an automatic assumption that just because they are a senior member of faculty that's done amazing work that's done pedagogical research that's like you know somebody in the
field that's just a Marilyn Oermann for instance I think it's you do place an unintentional burden on them as well because then you're uploading what you're expecting them to be
doing. I think it's really it's a call probably and I think that ends up being that catch 22 again because if you don't have enough funds to be able to support the professional development or the release in time because you have a shortage of faculty and you can't accept enough students I mean I think it's really hard because it ends up being this perpetual circle of really constantly chasing our tails of truly what is, and I hate the adage what came first
the chicken or the egg, but you're not, you're never able to find the solution because there's always something that's circularly coming back that's like oh well now this is a problem or now this is a problem. I think a big part of it is
administrative support. I think that's one of the bigger things you really have to be able to have a dean or deans that are going to be really truly committed and really saying that this is how they want to structure and this is what they're going to do and then have that ability to then really try to pull it up that chain of systematic structures because really some of it does come down a good chunk of it comes down to
funding. It's not, maybe it's even if you're like within a small institution and you do have a big group of faculty that are onboarding and coming in is it fiduciary responsible to send all of them to a conference or is there some way that you could possibly do some type of of a mini conference bringing people to them and do you know something within your regional location and even with that sometimes when you do something like that there could be the opportunity to really
not necessarily make you know get money off of it but to be able to support it by sending the option out to some of those other regional areas or or local areas because for me I think of basically within Texas. I mean, the state is so
big. We have so many rurally underserved areas and I mean that would be a great opportunity if somebody wanted to offer some type of educational session down on the Rio Grand Valley to where they may not have as many opportunities or funds because they are in a rurally underserved area that then they could come to that regional location to be you know to be getting those opportunities for education and services because it's really, I mean, even for
somebody from the Rio Grande Valley to come all the way up to Fort Worth where I'm at, that driving wise that's a good eight, nine hours. It's that's how big the state of Texas is. Maryland can fit - we could fit a couple Marylands here. But I do think it's important though if organizations want to increase the number of faculty that they have to invest in them, in the faculty because what I've seen is
the other side. You hire all the faculty, you don't have an established structured orientation for this new faculty and what happens they get frustrated, they get burnt out and they leave academia within a couple of years. I think that you have to invest and have a plan too. One thing I did appreciate about my first nursing education position was there was a structured plan. You were assigned a mentor when you walked in the door. You had to sit
on the curriculum committee for two years. You had to sit on the test development committee. I don't even know if universities still have these committees. I might be dating myself but I learned so much. At first I was like, oh, we're being forced to but I needed that and I learned so much from just being a part of those committees. And also we need mentors.
That was brought up. I don't know where I would be if I didn't have my mentors and people that have a strong foundation in education but they need to be compensated for that whether that's money, whether that's, you know. I remember when I was in academia part of my
are you mentoring anyone - not just students but faculty. And that was part of your evaluation so they need to get credit for that work that they're doing. But I think that piece is so important to have a mentor that you can bounce back and say: can you take a look at this syllabus? Can you help me decipher this test? I remember the first test analysis. Remember when you got the the data and I was like what do I do with this? What questions do I need to change?
Through all those discussions you have no clue what you're doing and nursing education. So I just want to stress that that piece is really important. What about ... we talked about it's important for the organizations to support faculty but also I think some of it maybe needs to be self-directed. So what advice would you
let's say that they're institution, they send them to that conference and maybe they have a mentor but what else can faculty do that is more proactive that they can do on their own to kind of meet these educator competencies?
I think one of the things that I did a while back and had some amazing educators that kind of pulled some of these things forward and even though sometimes it can be extremely like because it's theory but is really looking at research and information that is outside of nursing and so a lot of times when I would start looking at maybe trying something different. I mean, even when I did my dissertation I looked at something outside of
nursing to look at. Really and dating myself now. I did so my research was on the flip classroom and educators perspectives of the flip classroom and so I intentionally went outside of nursing to really see where education was at especially in that K through 12 area because those are who
come to us. I think in order for us to be consistently in a place to where we can help become better educators and as a faculty member we need to to be okay with looking at literature outside of our own profession because many times especially when it comes to teaching practices in nursing education we're behind. We're very behind. We're really, I mean, I can't express that enough.
We are so far behind. I mean, when you still see somebody that's using a PowerPoint presentation in a classroom we really kind of end up - we do it to ourselves because we're so familiar with what the practice is and it's easy, right? So I taught our OB course or our maternal child courses because I'm an obstetric
nurse at heart. I went back to that right you go to a PowerPoint because I know how to, I knew all the stuff about being an obstetric nurse but the unfortunate thing is is our students don't need to know what I know. They needed to know what they needed to do in order to be able to do it more appropriately. So I think you need to be, you truly do need to be a lifelong learner. You have to be okay with looking at things that are completely crazy and off-the-wall.
I always say and it's one of our values here at University of North Texas Health Science Center is to question the conventional and to be okay with failure because if you're not okay with failing you're not going to be Innovative because somebody that's an innovator at heart is okay to question why it's being done the way it's being done and to start looking around the corner for an innovative solution as to how we can improve it and I think that's also the same thing as were
saying. We're all, we're simulationists at heart and I think that's probably that we're all those innovative thinkers because we always questioned well, why are you doing it this way? Let's do it this way. We always try to find those ways for our students to really truly grasp what they need to do and I think feedback is a big thing.
I don't think personally in my experiences in academia for the period of time that I've been in academia I don't think we truly do a really great job of assessing and receiving feedback, whether it's peer feedback or student feedback with an evaluation type of process that's going to be appropriate, that's going to be useful,
that's going to help us improve a course. And a lot of people don't teach their students how to do an evaluation because they think it's an evaluation that they're going to be able to just completely disintegrate the faculty member because they didn't get the grade that they were getting. Well, what onus was on you to receive the grade that you thought you earned? Were the objectives truly clear? Did you meet the objectives of the course? Did the faculty help guide you to those
objectives? And really setting up an evaluation and feedback model that actually will also help feed a faculty's evaluation because I think that's where some of that back and forth is as if we're very intentional in a trajectory of how we're professionally developing everything should align from from point A to point B. I think we struggle with doing a really good job at that. I echo everything you said Elizabeth and I'll add a couple of things that came to mind.
I think one of the characteristics that you need to have is that you need to be able to be a self- advocate. As you come into this profession, I've noticed a lot of senior educators will just assume you're okay until you say like you're struggling or there's an issue that comes up, but meanwhile, as a novice educator you've got this internal turmoil. You're like, am I doing this right? And I think you've got to be able to ask for help and say I'm not sure how do you write this exam
question? what would you do? And that takes a little bit of intellectual humility. A lot of are educators our practitioners who transition to educators are experts. They've been oriented, they've been, you know ,the top of their career and so to come in all of a sudden and say hey I don't know how to do this, I've seen
that challenge. And I think you need to acknowledge that, yes, you were an expert but now you're kind of starting off in a new role and there's got to be that intellectual humility and say I'm not sure how to do this. I can do all these other things but when it comes to writing this exam like, darn it, I can't get it and asking for help. I think those two characteristics are essential for you to thrive. Just like if I have a new nurse who's on the unit who's not
asking questions, I'm worried, right? And I feel the same way about a new educator and even my peers who are seasoned educators aren't accustomed to that and I think we need to say it's okay. Like, yeah, they've been in the field for 40 years. They should have questions. It's okay for them to have these questions and then I always tell my nurse educators whether they're
be curious. We understand you're intelligent. We understand that you've got done all these things, but in the classroom be curious with your learners and that will help drive that connection that you might be missing, that engagement. So those are the three things that always come to mind when I think of characteristics of a good educator. I don't think it's going to be someone who's super intelligent or super you know ... I want someone who's
curious. I want someone who can ask for help and then who's always willing to learn. It goes back to that lifelong journey. There's always something new. We as nurses are going to be learning and having that intellectual humility to say pause and be like okay I'm going to listen here, you know, there there's someone else who can do this a little bit better. I'm going to ask for help. So those things I think are important.
So as we wind down I have one last question for each of you because I think about how we were taught and how this generation is different. We hear that all the time. We were okay with the as my mentor says, the talking PowerPoint, you know death by PowerPoint, but like I think you said Elizabeth this is a generation that needs to be engaged. They need interaction because they can lose their interests like this. So how do you envision the role of nurse educators evolving in the next
five to 10 years? How do we need to maybe change to meet the needs of just a different generation of learners? I can start of. So I'm just coming off the conference. Kellie presented a wonderful presentation on AI. I just signed up my kids for something lingo off of con that uses AI to help personalize their learning.
I really think we need to leverage AI. We're sitting here talking about item analysis, writing questions, how can we use these technologies to really help our educators so that we can spend dedicated time doing research or mentoring or all these other pieces that we need. I think if we keep layering on the expectations for educators it's not going to help. We've got to find ways and innovative ways to really help resources build that rich treasure chest of resources so
then we can take on these new roles. All of us can be mentors. All of us can be researchers. All of us can attend all these wonderful conferences because we have resources that are going to help do our job. And I'm not an expert in AI, Kellie, but I think that will be the future of education is really looking at how we can leverage it to the best of our abilities to do things that will make us more effective and more impactful in the other areas.
So that's what I'm hoping for. I'm looking forward to more detailed instructions on how to do that. Yeah I think I'd have to agree with that and then it just adding a little bit more to it in that so again remember I said I go I typically go to where teachers are teaching students at are K through 12 because knowing that those are the ones that
are always going to come to us. So again, looking at the technology what is there that was kind of how I when I started doing some of my research with VR sims and that's what I had seen is that you know kiddos were being introduced
to virtual reality and we weren't yet. We weren't doing it and so I knew that really what is that on that and I believe it was Dr. Love that said it's what's on the bleeding edge instead of the cutting edge in that not only the matter of and it may not even necessarily be embracing technology because we don't all need
to be champions of AI. I don't think any of us has the bandwidth to all be the champions of of AI, but I think to recognize that it's there and how are we going to utilize it within our practices and understanding as well as to what the scope is for those of our students that are to be going into the profession and what does that look like with them using some of these technologies
coming forward. And one of the one of the things that's been really hitting hard for me is that the the last couple of leadership conferences and leaders that I've been hearing within nursing is that I think for me within the next few years with the way that technology is advancing, I'd also like to see our profession advance a little bit
more. I'd like to see more nurses at the table. I'd like to see more nurses in those leadership roles and informing really what that looks looks like because without us at those seats it's going to get informed for us right. I mean one of the things that Dr. Love has spoken about at a number of conferences is really how nursing looked back at a time that we were part of that payment structure and now we're not and our voices are really muddled and other people are answering
those questions for us. It's kind of like when you have an architect come into and we say this all the time, right. You go into a hospital unit and you're like, who designed this? Was there a
single nurse in this conversation? Because like the gloves are 500 feet away and I'm not even being a good steward of my time in this room because I have to go around a bed five times because the equipment I need is on that side when it should be on this side and I mean I think it's if we're not at the tables to really say what that AI development or technology looks like it's going to get defined for us and we're not going to be there. That's powerful we have to have a seat at
at the table. So we have unfortunately run out of time. I think we could have gone on and on and on with this conversation for a couple more hours. But I just want to take the time out to number one thank you both because I know you're both like me coming off of a conference and had a quite a busy day so I appreciate you taking the time out to have this very important discussion because this is a hot topic. And like you said, there's gaps
that we need to close. We got to figure out how to do that and a lot of that comes with making sure we have the resources for these nursing educators, making sure we have mentorship and also just re-envisioning the way that we deliver nursing education and prepare our learners. So again, I want to thank you, Dr. Elizabeth Wells-Beede and also Dr. Jasline Moreno, for for helping me to have this important discussion and I stay tuned for our next podcast. So thank you
again. Thank you for the invitation. Thank you. [Music]