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Welcome to this episode of the NLN podcast, Nursing Edge Unscripted. I am Raquel Bertiz. I am the host of this episode and I am from the National League for Nursing. In this episode, we'll have an interesting conversation around pedagogical preparation of nurse educator. And our guest for today, I'll start with Dr. Amber Young
Brice. She is an associate professor and associate dean for academic affairs at Marquette University College of Nursing and Dr. Kyla Ferrar Stern is a clinical assistant professor at the University of Wisconsin Milwaukee. And our two nurse educators with us today wrote a very interesting article calling for a change in expectations a policy recommendation for future and current educators in the Journal of Professional Nursing. So welcome Amber and Kyla. Thank you for joining
us. Thank you. Yeah, thanks for having us. All right. So, let me ask you, what inspired or informed your interest in nurse educator preparation? Yeah. So, I'll take this first. So for me as a newer nurse compared to Amber at least, just kind of reflecting on my own transition experience going from a nursing student to a bedside nurse and then again shortly after transitioning to academic nursing or teaching.
It was kind of a a whirlwind experience and there were some bumps in the road I would say and that was kind of what informed my interest is how do we make that better for future students? What can I do to help that transition? Mhm. I would have to agree with Kyla that thinking about going through school, you know, even starting back in elementary school, things were not easy for me and I constantly through all phases of my education trying to figure out what do teachers
want from me? And spending all of that brain power trying to just figure that part out and then really missing out on a lot of key learning moments. And so like Kyla, I developed this desire to help students have a better experience than I had and really try to cut back on, all of that guessing, that students tend to
waste their brain space on. And so that's really how Kyla and I met is we both had this, similar interest in nursing education, which then, developed into doing research together. And so, we've done a few projects together, you know, with students or with faculty, but all really around nursing education and how do we best support student success from both sides. Wow.
Yeah, that's that's very interesting. And it's also kind of like a very uh similar theme across the board as I talk to a lot of educators and we look back at how we were all educated as nursing students and I would say at the back of our minds like I wish I could have been educated differently or what would have been my experience if I had a different experience and that
goes back to our nurse educators, right? So, now that we're all nurse educators as well, it's it's really high time for us to examine what's our pedagogical preparation or how are we being prepared to educate and and be at that place now where we can really influence the preparation of our future nurses. So with that said, what have you identified as primary factors contributing to the gap in the pedagogical
preparation among nurse educators? And I'm I'm almost already claiming there is a gap, right? So maybe we should start with that, right? Do you think there's a gap in pedagogical preparation? If if yes, what are the factors that contribute to this? So, I think it kind of stems from the expectations we set for our educators and what we want them
walking in the door with. So, for most states, it's mostly a master's degree, but is it a master's degree that's advanced practice that puts you in a a clinically specialized area, or is it specifically focused on how to teach in like a nursing education perspective? And so, currently, there's a lot of variation in what that baseline
is, what what are those expectations? So to help address that gap, I would say kind of going back to our state boards of nursing and looking at what do they want out of their nurses and do they even require continuing education. So I think this is the gap exists based on multiple reasons or you know um things that impact it, but I think that's a good like starting point is what are those expectations? Right. Right. And I'll highlight there's no standard requirement
to have pedagogical preparation to teach. It's as simple as that. That's the gap is states to state, school to school. There is no standard requirement to have any sort of preparation to teach. And I would couple that gap also with financial considerations that academics we just cannot compete with the salaries of
bedside nurses. And so I think that contributes to this gap in pedagogical preparation because it's it's it's an add-on almost and I hate to say that but it's not a requirement for a lot of people that go into teaching. So yeah and I want to highlight something that you wrote in your article that article that you co-wrote and this line about how interesting it is that AACN for example do not view nurse educator or nursing educate education as an
advanced practice or or even a specialty. And that goes back to what you're saying in terms of well, we can't compete with the financial aspect of that then because our counterparts elsewhere would be paid higher because they are at an advanced degree or advanced practice level. So what are your thoughts on that? So what are your thoughts and I'm throwing this to both of you. What are your thoughts about should we consider nurse educator as an advanced practice? I would say
yes. Because it's it's one thing to be a nurse and practice in a variety of areas, right? And even when you start those jobs, you get additional education and orientation to that specific area. Why not in teaching as well? We are doing something different. It's it's not the same as going and working with patients at the bedside. It really is its own thing to understand what you're trying to teach and then have it come across in a way that your students are going to
understand it. And that doesn't come natural for everybody. And having some of that additional education behind it is important and impactful. At least that's kind of what we saw from my dissertation study is that educators have such an impact based on how they do things. But that
doesn't come without preparation, right? And it's interesting that AACN has that perspective because then CCNE who does the accrediting is still looking at the masters in nursing education and looking at are those programs including the 3Ps the clinical hours so on and so forth. And so it's just an interesting dynamic between AACN and then CCNE and how they're approaching this area of nursing education. And I
would agree with Kyla. I think we're both clearly biased towards towards this being something that is special. You have to understand learning science. You have to understand, I mean, the theories. There's theoretical underpinnings of how learning works. And so you are going through a lot of specialized courses to really fully understand nursing education from that broader perspective. And so I would have
to agree too that this is a specialization. You are setting yourself apart from others by taking you know teaching and learning credits towards that masters in nursing education or even a DNP or a PhD. And that brings us back to the conversation of clinical expertise will not equate to expertise
in education or educational pedagogy. Mhm. And and therefore I think one way to to showcase that very point would be what have what are your observations or your experiences in terms of transition from a clinical expertise to teaching? So what are the experiences of nurse educators on
that transition? I think in terms of preparedness just like we see in practice if you like with our nurse externs for example they have a little bit more pre practice under their belt they're in the environment they're going to feel a little bit more confident to go do that nursing role when the time comes. I think if somebody has maybe a degree where they have maybe like like student teaching or they're in the classroom or they're in the clinical before
they actually have to be there on their own. It would be fair to say that just having that would improve hopefully that transition even if just a little bit. Right. I mean there's a whole role transition theory. We didn't talk about this in this specific article, but we did talk about it in another article. If I can just put a little plug about the comprehensive onboarding program that I facilitate. So, Kyla helped me with
data analysis on that. And the transition from clinical practice into being an educator is quite significant and one that I don't think we give enough attention to that. I had one faculty participant and she was quoted as saying, you know, the feedback I got at the bedside is not the feedback that I get as an educator. My patients are like, "Thank you." You know, whatever they say, students are very different and faculty colleague to faculty colleague, peer-to-peer is
very, very different. And so that transition in and of itself is significant. And then if we add on that layer of if you have education preparation or not or pedical preparation or not, that just compounds what a person can be experiencing in that transition into education. If at least you have some coursework under your belt, you're understanding the wise of what you're seeing and experiencing, even if it's still
all super new and you're a novice again. Knowing like, oh, this is probably why this is happening with my students can help lessen how some of the negatives that people might experience bedside to education. Right. Exactly. What you have said in that other article also because think about this what we have learned in nursing education is to practice as a nurse and then therefore if you are going to practice as
an educator what knowledge base do you need? Well, obviously education, but then in many, many cases in in the nursing uh education world, our clinical experts are transported into the world of nursing education and then kind of like we expect them to be magically expert educators
as well. But you're very right there. The role transition process is something that we really have to consider in in this world of academic preparation and it's just very interesting to look at it that way and then looking at what are the consequences of inadequately prepared educators? I think that's something that we have to think of as a nursing education community and the ethics of it. Right?
So let me transition then into questions about like hm let's talk a little bit about like what are the effects of nurse educators nonpreparedness or inadequate preparation for nursing education.
Yeah. So I think for this at least from like what I saw in my research study is that students they are very quick to say like oh somebody's doing this one way or my learning doesn't resonate with how this person's educating and they're very quick to say all the negative things um that they don't like about their experience but they're not always talking about the good things that happen.
The other thing I was thinking is that if educators don't have that background or that additional preparation, they might not be using maybe the most evidence-based strategies. And then kind of going back to what we said is there if they don't have it, they rely on how they were educated. And so students then are like, well, I'm not getting what I need or um maybe there's a mismatch in how somebody's educating versus how the students are learning.
And so even though an educator might have good intentions, it might not always translate to good learning for the students. So how they implement it is also important. So that's kind of my thoughts on that one. Well, kind of like if you're saying it that way, think about we're we're always ruminating on this concept of the education practice gap, right? So we're always looking at why are students
inadequately prepared. So if we are to graduate nurses who are going to be able to practice and navigate what we want them to be able to do competencies in other words how are we educating them? But then if we don't have that evidence-based set of knowledge to teach it. It could be like yes, yeah, it's a no-brainer. We are educating our our future nurses with with what,
but where did we learn all of this? Does it goes back to education on how to educate, which is of course back to your point both of you is that well there's no standard preparation. If there are also consequences on the institutions themselves or programs if you will or even our own nurse educator community. What could be the consequences of non-standard preparation or inadequate
preparation of of our faculty? What's the effect what would be an effect of that in our programs or in our I guess faculty uh groups? I'll jump in here. I think one thing we we want to make sure we're clear on is that having educator preparation, obtaining the CNE, you know, the certified nurse educator doesn't equal being a good teacher either. I think it does help people, again, and I said this a little earlier, understand the wise behind what's going on,
right? And I think that I always say this, student behavior is a form of communication. And if you have some if you understand learning theory like behaviorism for example which will correspond to competency based a lot because we're looking at what are students doing and showing us you can kind of navigate some of those curricular decisions in a different way if you have that underpinning. So I will die on the hill that we should all know about learning theory and learning
science um at a minimum. But I think if we have any sort of standardized preparation across the board, it helps us all have a shared mental model. And I think that is maybe some of the missing pieces. We have expert clinicians who are really amazing faculty. They are when you couple them up with somebody that has some pedagogical preparation that understands some of that learning science, how learning works.
That's where the magic happens I think and just think of the possibilities if all of us had some sort of underlying preparation what could happen to curricula across the board if that did become something that was standardized. And I think with you know thinking about educator competencies are consequences of you know having an adequate knowledge base and being prepared to teach. I always think of what's our ethical obligation to students. And you know,
it takes a team. It takes that experience. It takes mentoring and peer support to really bring all those pieces together coupled with a CNE. So I want to just make sure like we're not saying CNE equals good. It just you understand why like the I think the why is behind everything is really essential for us to help with all the things we're talking about. You just unpack a lot of concepts there. Amber, you you talk about what's the value of CNE. Yes.
It does not equate to competencies either if you will. And relating it to my own personal experiences and hearing other faculty preparing for CNE and their comments like, oh, finally I know what this is. And. Right. Right. And these are faculty members who have been teaching maybe like a few years already and now they're just saying, "Oh, now this is why we do this." Right. It's it's backwards. It's the why or having a name. Like I hear the oh, that's what that's
called. Right. Right. And and then think of and I like the word you use and I'll borrow that. Think of the magic that could happen if you have this strong clinical expertise coupled with like strong pedagogical background and therefore what
would that standard preparation would be. And you said well of course theory of learning is number one right and we can probably name a few more into that mix of the standard and therefore or standards and now I think it's also a conversation of what could be possible ways to make this happen. I know it's like we can make this happen but but how what are your thoughts on that? Amber, do you want to go first so I can ruminate on this? So how do we
make this happen? I have lots of ideas. You know, I think something that you may ask us coming up, Raquel, but I'm going to say it now is having standard expectations, standardized expectations for educators would really help us. Again have that shared mental model. However, credentialing in nursing education is not looked at the same way as it is as credentialing as like a ped specialist or older adult specialists. And so that is one one thing to note here with that
having the standard expectations. We don't want it to become a barrier to people coming into faculty roles because if it's if it's not standard as part of what everybody has to do and it's part of what's infused into the culture of a college of nursing or school of nursing, I could see us
having some issues. You know, for example, in higher ed, there are some places that'll pay for people to get their CNE and there's others that don't and they don't pay for any certifications for their faculty because it's not a requirement to teach, right? So, that's one thing to note.
I think what we have to think about with kind of making this kind of standardized pro standardized process is how are faculty being onboarded and how are we infusing again just I'm going to name it learning theory into an onboarding program. So at least they're getting that to then broaden out into more development as they go.
question there add is that for new educators it's a great learning tool right they're preparing for this new role it's something that maybe they want to invest in because they know they're going to use it the thing I question is well what about our like mid-career faculty who've been here doing this for a while or the ones who are close to retirement like how do you really standardize those expectations for those folks that are realistic and doesn't I don't like offend their
experience or their wisdom. So it's I think it's a bigger broader question than just what can we do now? We really have to think about all the pieces to the puzzle um to give that
answer. Yeah. Yeah. And and if we're thinking of nurse educators as having standardized expected competencies as well uh which brings us of course to the essence of the CNE certification where it's organized around the expectations or competencies of the faculty but we can also think about but leveling of competencies right of course the new or novice educator would would be at this level. Somebody who'd been teaching for 25
years or more should be considered an expert. So it's it's still that novice to expert expectations there within the frame of expected competencies and therefore think about other professions even in nursing right it your competencies are expected to progress from being a novice to expert. What about nurse educators then? Do we have that expectations for ourselves and and what would be the measure like CNE is that really
a measure of competency? And then in terms of faculty development, continuing development, what do we have? And I like what you said in terms of onboarding, what's that onboarding like? And then again standardization of onboarding for faculty that's probably another podcast by itself. So but yeah very well but let me point one more point out one more point from the article that you said is about what are the roles of of states? Could they be significant if lack of a
better word? What's their significance in helping this standardization or do we really want that to go there right would be a good question as well. Yeah, I think in terms of states they have the
potential to be helpful. Like if we just look at like continuing education in general from state to state if it's a requirement for nurses I would hope that those who are doing those education credits are picking things that are meaningful to them and useful in their development and so if somebody knows they're going to be transitioning into education maybe that's the time and the place to say okay this is where I'm going to do that additional preparation.
However, not everyone's going to think that way. Or it's more seen as a barrier. It's another thing I have to do. And so there's kind of pros and cons to saying, "Hey, let's do it this way." But that's just like a starting point. At least that's kind of the way I see it, right? And we're always cognizant of the shortage
as well, right? So nurse workforce shortage, nursing faculty shortage, and where do we stay in that in that to balance our expectations, wish future as nurse educators and then of course the needs that were facing as well. So yeah, so the these are all very good points and and highlights. And therefore as we kind of like try to close our conversation, I want to ask
both of you. So what are some of the nuggets or I would say lessons that you can share with us and the nursing education community about all of these lessons that you have learned your research on nursing education professional development or preparation of nurse educators. For me I would say that that nugget is that if anyone's considering transitioning into nursing education that your impact is potentially exponential. And so students are going to see that way, your
peers are going to see it that way. And so the more prepared you can be, and that's going to look different for everybody, but what you can do to prepare yourself for that transition, but then also that impact is really important and it doesn't go unnoticed. Yeah. And I'm hoping that our administrators, our leaders are also listening as we speak. Right. Right. And who is um here today? Amber, I was going to say I have a whole different lens on this and how we have to
think about it. And yes, you know, just a couple of things I want to end with. One, we need more data to have some data informed decision making. And I know there's some research going on. I saw a LinkedIn recruitment post of do you have your CE?
We'd like to talk to you. And I think if we can get some more data, correlational data between, you know, pedagogical preparation, whatever that looks like, and student outcomes, that's one thing to help us work with policy within our our institutions, but also policy at those state boards of nursing of of should there be something standardized because here's what the data is showing and we might not see anything. You know,
that's the cool thing about research. You don't know until you start to gather this data to make your decisions. And I would say then with that is falling back on the novice to expert that you brought up, Raquel, is being intentional about how we onboard people into their faculty roles is something I'm very aware of because when you are a novice in education, okay, expert in practice, but I'm sorry, now you are novice again and it's
really uncomfortable. What do we need to do first to help building people in their experience? What do we do at that midpoint? So, I have a a National Science Foundation grant and I'm finding that midpoint faculty are are the prime group because they have enough experience to know what they're they're experiencing and seeing, but they know they have still a lot of room to grow,
right? And so, how do we think about that with our nurse educators coming in and that novice to expert is the timing of the faculty development and what we're doing at what point? And then as admin administrator, I was thinking as we've been talking today, how are administrators weaving in competencies into their peer evaluations and their annual evaluations and what do those look like across all of our nursing programs? I would like to think there's some similarities,
but I don't know. I haven't looked into this, but that's another area of how are we leaving this in if we think it's important into our evaluation processes to help people feel supported and you know want to grow. Like Kyla has said a few times, this is a lot of times a personal endeavor that they want to do for themselves. And so how do we support and foster that through some of our evaluation processes, right? Like personal motivations, professional uh motivations
definitely and so much more. And I know we can go on talking about this because the this is a topic that I think that is close to our hearts as educators because we're essentially talking about ourselves here and um therefore it's hard to summarize what we've talked about because we've talked about so many areas of educational preparation of the educator in
nursing. But to end this conversation, I would like to thank both of you for being here and and sharing your thoughts and expertise and really also stimulating more thinking about what else do we need to talk about this very topic also in the future. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All right. So that ends our episode for today and we'll see you in our next episode. [Music]