The Rideshare Drivers' Unionization Debate

It's night Side with Dan Ray. I'm WBZ Constans.

Radio, delighted to be joined by Roxanna Rivera. Roxanna Rivera works as a union organizer. She is with the SEIU, which I think most of us are familiar with, and she is one of those who is very much in favor of ballot Question three, which would allow ride share drivers essentially, I mean, the two big ones are Uber and Lyft to unionize.

So welcome to night Side, Roxanna. How are you tonight right?

Thank you for having me in the cud.

Are you on a speakerphone or a headset or something or what sort of phone are you on?

Yeah?

Can you hear me much better?

Now?

What did you do educate me? What did you do?

Just stop putting it by my ear? Yes, thank you.

Oh that's very and get that mouthpiece by your mouth so that we can hear you very clearly.

Yeah. I didn't mean to embarrass you there.

But when I'm here and you know a connection that that needs to be better for my audience. I want you to be able to to tell your story and also for people to understand what you say. So let's uh, let's talk us. Let's start with the story. So you would like your organization. Uh would love to see right share drivers. Uh, that's people that's that transport persons from

Passes no right now. It only has to do with the transportation network drivers that work for companies like Uber and lyft?

Okay, are there just for curiosity? Are there other small I'm unfamiliar? Are there other smaller companies out there that that we don't think about the you know that that employ a lot fewer drivers that that are out there competing?

Or is Uber and I and lifted?

They pretty much have the the market of transporting people all to themselves.

You know, in terms of ride share.

Drivers, there's no other company at this point that would be covered under this.

That's fine.

And again we're not talking about taxi cab drivers. We're talking about people who drive who are now currently what's called independent contractors. Now, I had someone on last night, as I mentioned to you earlier today, a woman who is a union advocate, but she apparently feels, which is her right, that the piece of the initiative petition should

And that's the difference, right, Yes.

Okay, give me a little amplification of that. Rucks in and so I don't want to make an assumption here, but what she was saying last night was that this legislation or this initiative petition would not cover people who are out kind of doing the same thing. They're they're picking up someone's chicken dinner order or picking up their pizza. And she said that that's why they're opposed to this, because it doesn't include everyone who is out there driving.

Go ahead, thank you, Yes, no, Yes, those are drivers that do delivery, right, and so our balid initiative, the Yes on three, only covers those that are transporting supporting people and for a ballot initiative we have. We have to go with a single issue, and UH transportation is seen delivered different as delivery, and so we had to focus on the set of workers that are covered under transportation and so that's you know, we believe this is

So what you're saying to me, if I'm understanding what you're saying to me, is that it's not inconceivable that somewhere down the line you might try to incorporate people who are delivery drivers who are not transporting people but also are transporting you know, food or important mail or letters or whatever, you know, would not be maybe maybe you want to grow the union. So if the commonality was people who are driving their car to transport something, whether it's a person.

Or an item.

Why not go a year from now, two years from now, three years from now, bringing them under the umbrella of the union, is what I'm hearing you.

Say, right, Yes, not only here in Massachusetts among other drivers, but actually ride share drivers in other states are watching what happens here on number firs day. So ride share drivers from Minnesota, in California and Yellow Noise, they're watching closely because they are also want to do something similar in their states based on uh, you know, uh, the outcome of the elections here.

Now, are there are there any states in the United States right now where ride share drivers.

Have been able to form a union?

Or would this be the first union of ride share drivers that would be formed or permitted to be formed more specifically by this ballot.

Question, Yeah, this would Massachusetts would be first, so it would be historic. And that's why other states are watching what happens here because unfortunately, these rightshre drivers are not covered under federal laws, so they're not they don't have the ability to organize, like what is what is a right that's guaranteed to almost all Massachusetts workers. These workers don't have. So that's why we're asking the state to create that law.

And so my understanding understanding, and if I'm wrong, feel free to correct, because I'm sure you know this issue better than I do. But my understand is that the reason that you had to do the hard work of getting an issue on the ballot, you had to gather signatures and all of that, or certain amounts of signatures over a certain period of time, is that the legislature

What happened.

Yeah, so we know from the start two years ago we started really organizing right here drivers in the state of Massachusetts, and we knew at the very beginning that only you know, even though there's thousands of proposed legislative built,

And so no, I get that, But why, you know, are you letting the legislative look the legislative leadership roxy in And I can tell you it worked for many years up there, covering the legislature whatever they.

Want to get in front of the full House of Representatives, in front of the state Senate. You know, they get it there.

Okay, they have an arcane system in which bills get referred to committee.

And that's where they go to die.

What I don't understand is why an overwhelmingly democratic legislature, which I think there's a lot of progressive members up there who would want to have ride share drivers receive union protection, which they have a right, in my opinion, to receive. I'm stunned that the legislature wouldn't do this for you.

I really mean it.

They're making you accomplish it the hard way, which seems to me to be unfair.

There's a lot of priorities at the State House, a lot of good issues that don't don't.

Okay, you're buying what they're telling you. Okay, that's fine, I don't need to You're you are basically telling me answering my question the same way, and you're letting them off the hook.

But that's okay as far as I'm concerned.

They they should have done it for you in my opinion, And you don't have to say that.

If you want to say they're going to take a break, we'll get some more phone calls. Feel free.

If you are a ride share driver out there and you have an opinion on question three, I think it should pass. I think the more I look at it, it seems to me it's a question of fairness to people who are trying to either make a living or add to their living. They use they do this as a second job or as a job that's that's a part time job. I still think they should have protections of a union. Six one, seven, two, five, four, ten thirty six one seven, nine three one ten thirty, triple

Now back to Dan ray Line from the Window World night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.

My guess is Roxanne Rivera. She's co chair of the Yes on three coalition and she works for SEIU Service Employees International Union SCIU. I think most of us are familiar with that. Roxanne, let me ask you. Let's assume this passes, okay, is what will it mean to the drivers? What are the advantages that drivers will receive if this passes?

So the reality for these drivers is that eighty percent of all the trips are actually done by full time drivers. So that means that this is the primary source of income. And many have sied, and many of them have had found themselves having to work up to seventy hours a week.

And so.

Because the recent settlement from the AG, it with a start in setting basic standards, but it didn't address the reality, the full reality faced by these drivers and they it didn't account for all the hours that they work, you know, the wait time between rides. It didn't account for all that.

What I'm really trying to figure out here because I feel like you're reading some talking points to me, and I'd prefer you to just talk to me. Let's assume I'm a driver and you're trying to convince me to vote yes on this. What will be the benefit for the drivers? I know this and benefits just tell me what they are, because I think it's important for people to understand that talk to me, talk to.

Me, don't read.

The drivers will be able to have to be able to talk to the companies and actually have a voice with the companies to talk around the issues they face daily because literally they are struggling, they are hurting, they don't have they don't make enough, you know, to bring food at the table to make sure that they're not

Because so let's asserve that a driver again, I think you're giving me. I think the simple answer to be honest with you, and a great selling point is for the driver's perspective in unity their strength. If you're an individual driver and you try to have a disagreement with the owner of the company or the head whoever owns uber or whatever. They're going to say, Hey, if you don't want to drive for us, no problem. But if they're united with a union, that's going to benefit all.

But they don't.

The reality is that many have to work sixty seventy eighty hours a week.

Then the people who are working sixty or seventy hours, how much? How much? What? How many hours? What do they make? That's what I'm trying to understand. IM making one.

Hundred thousands, and I appreciate your question. If it's the reality is that what we hear from drivers is that they're still at the end of the day, they're still not making enough.

No, I understand that, but can you give let me ask you this, rock Sander, let me try this one. Okay, can you give me a figure as to what I can tell you that that you know what school teachers make and you know the general I just general ideas.

No, it's just many of the drivers are still saying they make less minimum wage after all the outer pocket costs that they have to put in in order to basically work for these app companies. And that's why it is important, like you said, you made a good point about, you know, have them having a voice on a job collectively right to be able to improve their lives and be able to h reach an agreement with these companies that will lift up and improve their lives.

How much of a turnover is there?

Again this I assume that there are some people who have become a ride share driver and that it works for their schedule and they basically that's what they do full time, and whether it's a sixty hour week job, or you know, most people think people work very few people work forty hours in real life, as I'm sure you know, I'm sure you work more than forty hours. I know, I do, you know, it's I think the idea of a forty hour work week is kind of I don't know that it's there.

There are some people who do. How much of a turnover is there in this job?

But people sticking with it because it's because of its convenience even though it doesn't pay enough. Or are they basically trying it for a year or two and then saying I'm done with this, I'm going to go do something else. What is there a lot of turnover in this in this profession, in your in your experience.

So the majority of driver, the majority rights are you know, done by what you know, you'd call an actor driver, not ones that are just doing it for a short amount of time.

Right.

And again, those that have been in this industry for years, they've you know, it started out as profitable, right, they were making enough to bring home, right, And then what's happened is that the companies have just taken a bigger, bigger share of divide and that's why they want you know, that's why they're asking for folks to vote yes on three,

Also there's an independence to that.

A lot of people who work in a factory and have to show up at seven thirty every morning and punch a clock and then they don't get up until you know, three point thirty in the afternoon. So there's some good things about being a right chaer driver. But you're saying, I think that in unity their strength, and if the right shaer drivers have the opportunity for a union, just like the hotel workers, we've just seen an example

So you know this. Unions are actually a good thing.

And I know that not everyone agrees with that, Probably a lot of business owners don't, but unions are a good thing. It allows people to collectively bargaining. We'll take a break. We're going to go to phone calls Roxane. We'll get to some phone calls on the other side. If you'd like to join the conversation and ask a question, feel free. If you'd like to state how you feel.

I learned at this job.

The best part about my job is that I get to meet different people, whether they're callers or listeners or or guests I can find out. I've never been a ride share driver, but with these two interviews last night and tonight, I feel that I understand the industry a lot better. And that's that's beneficial to me because the more that I know, the more that you're going to know, and the more the more considered your vote's going to

Night Side with Dan on Boston's News Radio.

All right, we're gonna take some phone calls. My guest is a union official with the s c i U, Roxanna Rivera, and she's co chair of the Yes on Question three committee. That question is headlined in that handy dandy summary that you have from the conwealtha Massachusetts law proposed by initiative petition Unionization for Transportation network Drivers.

Let's head to the phone is going to go to Dwayne in Rossendale. Dwayne, you are first this hour on night Side with Roxanna Revera. Go right ahead, Dwayne.

Hey, Dan, great to speak with it. Yeah. I'm a uber driver, left driver. I've been driving for a little close to ten years. I drive off and on. I don't drive a regular schedule.

But is it Let me ask you, Dwayne, is it is it your full time job or do you do you work it as a side hustle, a side hustle.

I'm seventy two years old, and I need you know.

It sounds seventy two. You got you got a young voice. Congratulations.

Well, well, I follow the Keith Richards program of Health, nutrition and Exercise.

So yeah, I've heard about that program, right.

Yeah, paid off in the end.

Yeah yeah, okay, hope you know what I'm saying.

Go ahead, yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah, I uh and uh, you know, it's it's been changing. I suggest that if they were to put the rates and everything back to where it was in twenty fifteen, I think most people would be happy. And it's not just so what let me ask you this.

Just give me a couple of round figures here. When you started working as a when they when they arrived on the scene and you were working you know, forty hours or whatever, it was. Okay, what were you making back then compared to what you're making now for the same amount of work. That's I just want to put it in some numbers that people will understand.

Most of us.

You work, you get a little raise. Maybe you don't get a raise, you get a little raise. I mean, inflation is killing all of us, no doubt about that. But just in terms of how much you would take it home back ten years ago versus today for the same amount of work, give me a rough idea.

Well, back then I was driving black car and suv in the rates were three dollars and ninety five cents a mile. Now it's a little about a dollar fifty I could make.

More than which is yeah, that's a good that's been cut more than fifty percent.

It's been cut in half.

Yeah, yeah, and everything else has been going down as well. Right now, I figure I make somewhere around thirty three dollars an hour. I work in the city. Because I live in the city, I work in the neighborhoods. There's not a lot of downtime between pickups.

But not a lot of launch trips either.

Oh, I avoid those. I avoid those right now are in front of me. I've got a receipt from the job I did the Manchester, New Hampshire. The passenger paid ninety dollars and three cents. I earned forty nine dollars and seventeen cents, So they took you know, forty dollars.

And then you've got to drive back from Manchester.

Yeah, at ten o'clock at night. So I drove back empty. Right, sure, it's one hundred figure, it's one hundred miles. I RS. Lets me right off sixty seven cents a mile. That's a loss. That's a that's a loss on paper. So not only am I not making any money, I'm not paying taxes either, you know, the communities. I mean, I appreciate all your taxes because they give me good roads to drive on in emergency services should they need them, because I'm.

Not making so you like, So you like even though they're cutting you back from three ninety five a mile to a buck and a half a mile, you'd prefer to do a whole bunch of shot short runs as long as you stay within the one twenty eight area. And when you when you take a job up to New Hampshire, you think you said, oh beautiful, I'm going to make a lot of money. Actually that's going to be a loser for you.

Absolutely, yeah, yeah, it's a big loser. In fact, they don't even publish their rates anymore. They make it up on the fly.

I do understand they have surge price.

I know the surge pricing deal and all of that, and it's a little bit, you know, a little bit crazy for those of us who do occasionally take it and over. But you know something, Dwayne, you explained the dilemma that you're facing really well, and I think that anybody who's out there will understand why you want to get into into a union of right share drivers.

This has to be settled down. We need we need some we need some standardization of how much we're going to earn, what the rates are. There are no rates. If you're going to the airport, you're in no position to negotiate. You've got to get there. And I'm finding that my passengers who are going to the airport are paying a lot more than what I get paid. There's still a surge, but uber and Lyft are taking it.

Well, what is so what is a normal middle of the day or whatever from downtown Boston to the airport. That's only probably five or six miles max.

Right, yeah, yeah, something like that. Yeah, from downtown Boston.

Yeah, yeah, So how much and depending upon the day, it's going to cost take time, a lot of time or less time.

What's the charge going to be? Roughly twenty bucks, twenty five bucks more?

Oh no, no, it could be anything from eight to thirteen dollars from downtown back Bay, say back Bay, Cambridge, he's Cambridge.

Okay, so that's a good deal.

That is a good deal for the customer, but it's horrible for the drivers.

Yeah. Well, well I'm not sure how much the customers paying. Yeah, we don't know.

Oh you're saying you get anywhere between eight and thirteen.

Okay, fine, So the customer could be paying two or three times that at least.

Could be paying twice that maybe, Yeah, okay, yep.

You know what's funny.

When Uber came in back in whatever it was, twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, I was amazed that they were able to come and basically we fled the city. The people who really took it in the chops with the taxi cab drivers, guys who had paid money, big money to have a medallion and Uber didn't care about them. They rolled right I was right, they rolled right over the What did you pay for you? Well, did you own a medallion or no?

I did not know. I leased a cab, right, So what.

I'm saying you when you leased it, you were still paying the person you know factored in there was how much the medallion costume. Uber just came in and they rolled over people, rolled over people. And the cabby's had no organization, The cabvis just they were They rolled over them. And now Uber is basically eating and you know, doing the same thing through through its most valuable employees. They're pretty they're pretty cutthroat.

Man. That's that you got reunion?

Ye we do? We do?

You got a question or comment from my guest Roxanna.

No.

I think what Duena's talking about is the reality is so many drivers that we've talked through over the last two years that they've just you know, seen the the company is taking more and more of the share of the ride, and that you know, and and there's other

Do you think fears will go up for passengers?

So I think that, just like Dwayne was saying, how much of the share is right they've taken, you know, we believe that they can take less and they're going to want to remain competitive for their you know, to keep their customers happy. And we think that they can still pay drivers fairly given you know that they uphold this whole industry every day for these Yeah, without.

Without the drivers, that there was no industry. You're right on that, Dwayne. Great call. Thank you so much. You gave us a lot of specifics. I'm sure you your call convinced a lot of people that maybe they want to vote yes on this.

Thanks Dwayne, I hope so favor. Keep listening to the show, love to have you become a regular listener and regular caller.

I will do that all right, Thank you, Dan.

Thanks to We take quick break, coming right back on nice side, my guest Lexander Rivere.

Dwayne was good. Dwayne was good. You could tell he was talking just from the heart. We'll take a quick break, coming back on nights side. We'll try to get everybody in. I promised there's one line that's open at six one, seven thirty. Back on night Side with Dan Ray.

Now back to Dan Ray from the Window World night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.

Okay, folks, the lines are now packed and I have a guest coming up at ten o'clock, so I'm going to ask each of you to be as succinct as possible. I wish all of you had called nine thirty. I what it got you all in. Let's go right now too, kehob In framing him. Eab you are next on Nightsiger, right.

Ahead, Yes, thank you so much for taking my call. I have been driver for a long time now eighty years, and our job really getting very difficult. All the expenses on the shoulder of the drivers. I would like to speak more about numbers. I have been listening to you, but your time is very limited. But Dan, our job is really extremely getting difficult. The drivers, they have no protection. They can stop any driver anytime they want. The activation

And now.

You that's why I was asking that question, because it would have been a lot easier on a lot of people if they had done the right thing quickly. They have your call. Your call is an outstanding call. I wish I had more time. I don't. I hope you call me and continue to continue to listen to programmed.

Oh will I will task to the drivers to this intense tone, I will done.

Thank you. We I hope to meet you someday. Thank you, my friend.

Oh, thank you, Donki. We appreciate you.

Don Kiyrosana.

Thanks by all right, let me go to Rachel.

Rachel, you gotta be I know you've been waiting a while, Rachel, but I got a whole bunch of folks here.

You gotta be a little quicker, I.

Know, all right, I'm gonna be really really really quick.

One.

When you ask that woman that you are with and ask what they make in hours, she did not answer. My whole thing, I manage your companies. That's union. My lineman went down and did whatever. So when you do union stuff, now you get into federal state, whatever. But if these guys or these drives are being hired by these companies and not being paid, she never even said, what, you know, the right is that they're being paid. But then she's gonna open the can of worms if she's gonna start union stuff.

And I believe in union.

I work for union companies.

No, But I think I think that these drivers, Rachel, I think that they have a right to unionize.

I think that they have no strength as an individual driver.

You know.

I I think it's Fairnish.

You gotta you gotta make that negotiating table somewhat, you know, level.

That's all that. I'm just trying to be fair, that's all.

No, you listen, Dan, you know me and I'm trying to be fair as well. Okay, it's what happens you start unionizing. You gotta deal with the state. Oh and then you have to background check, you have to do this, and again you have you asked more than once what are these guys making?

So that's okay, that's okay.

Look, my my, you know, I don't hound the guests, but I but you know, I think she look I like to give people the benefits of the doubt, Rachel. And I think that Dwayne put it out there pretty clearly. He said that they used to make three ninety five a mile. Now they make a buck and a half a mile. That's a big cause.

I understand that, but it should be something else. So if they're going traveling, it's it's a definitely unique situation. But Dan, you know, unions now you gotta pay into you start unionized.

No, I'm a union member, Rachel. I know.

I've been a union member for a long time. I was a shop steward and we we had tough negotiations. I you know you, I am not in any way, shape or form a post to unions.

I'm a union person.

So we can disagree on that you're in a management position. I'm not smart enough to be in management, Okay, Rachel.

I am union. I want these guys to get I.

Well, vote yes on three, vote yes on three, and and give them a chance.

Okay. Uber's pretty cutthroat.

It sounds to me like Uber and Lyft are kind of having their own way, and I like I like fairness. Rachel, I got a screwed. We did three minutes, which is much longer than I could. But because you were regular, you go a little longer.

Now. No, No, it was always good at different point of view. Thanks so much. Okay, talk soon. Let me go to Alan Boston.

Al, you gotta be quick for me so I can get Susan from Jamaica plane into go ahead.

Al.

Hey, damn hey, listen. One thing nobody's talking about is uh the insurance of these drivers. Most of these drivers only have regular auto insurance. There was an incident a few years ago on ninety three and heading into the city where a young girl was killed at college student and come to find out, the insurance company renegged on paying because it's a you know, higher higher come.

Yeah.

Basically they claimed that that the guy didn't buy commercial coverage.

He had bought you know, regular personal insurance.

Correct, and that that's tough.

Yeah, well again, you know, people try to people try to cut corners, Okay, and I'm not saying it's right.

Roxan, A quick comment on that.

Do you think that that the drivers can maybe you know, pay a little bit more for insurance when when everything gets gets squared away here and they're getting a little bit more money on their jobs.

We want Those are types of issues that we need to deal with right when we when when drivers actually get to the process of actually having the option to join the union and then being able to sit down with the companies and talk about this because because safety should be a priority, right. But the issue, the issue is that it's it's these these app companies have shifted the whole liability on the workers, right, and so that that needs to change in order for this insight.

I hope, I hope it does. And I think that's concerned Command Dress. Now, I hate you to do this year called in really late. I want to give Susan about thirty seconds to Okay, thank you, my friend, thank you.

Susan, and Jamaica Plan I forced to give you about forty seconds.

Go ahead, Susan, what's.

Your coming out?

So I was confused by the ads, and then I got my red books and the legal women voilters, and I read the four and the against, and I read the against, and it's the same old anti union stuff. Oh you'll pay your money, you'll get nothing, blah blah blah blah blah. And then I realized, who's on the flour and Roxanne and the union she represents has ably represented the lowest paid service workers in this city, building cleaners and parking lot attendance, people who had nothing and

You've done Gil too. You made an interesting point.

I would only ask you to call in earlier because because once ten o'clock comes along, I got to say good night, so we'll talk again, I hope. Okay, Thanks sir, Thank you, jam Thank you very much. We got you in at least a little bit. Roxana, thank you very much, Best of luck. On November fifth, Question three, I think that the driver should have right to unionize in my opinion, and maybe later on you bring the other people in

Have you back to back with the other point of view.

Thanks so much, Roxanna, thank you, thank you.

Have a great night. Here comes to ten o'clock News.

We're going to switch off focus, going to talk about Israel're going to talk with the Boston attorney who was there on October seventh and went back earlier this month and comes back with stories about what's going on in Israel right now. Israel under siege. It's a crazy situation over there. And Jason Greenberg will join us right after the ten o'clock News