It's going to be a windy and cool nights to night under a mainly cloudy sky. We'll have rain at times, which will be steady US near the coast, much of the time west of Boston will be dry, low tempter around fifty nine. We do have coastal flood advisories in effect all the way through Sunday evening with the storm system off to our south and high surf advisories are an effect through tomorrow, as it will be breezy and cool Tomorrow and Tomorrow night with clouds and some rain
at times close to the coast. Couple of showers farther inland high sixty two Tomorrow, low fifty eight Tomorrow night, an early shower toward the Cape Island. Sunday otherwise breezy and cool with clouds and breaks of sun high sixty five, clouds and some sun Monday with the cool breeze, high again around sixty five. I'm accurate with the VideA reallotis Brian Hops at WBZ Boston's news radio.
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Let's get back now to Night Side with Dan Ray. I'm Al Griffith, WBZ, Boston's news radio.
It's nice with Dan Ray on Boston.
All right, welcome back, Thanks very much, Al Griffith. As we head toward what we're now in our ten o'clock hour, by the way, coming up at eleven tonight, in the twentieth hour we do we'll do an hour. You're a brush with celebrity. Everybody has met a celebrity during their life. Again, to some people a celebrity as a president. Some people it might be the local selectman or whomever. We love to hear your stories about how they treated you, the good,
the bad, and the ugly. It's as simple. It's as simple as that. We're going to talk about the latest chapter, actually, what will be the next chapter in the Karen Reid case. I have with me tonight. Too well experienced lawyers here in the Boston area. William Kickham, who does criminal fence work and also deals with catastrophic on TWRT cases. Never quite heard it described that way, but Bill Kickham, Welcome
to Nightside. Bill's practices out of the community of Westwood, Welcome Bill, how are you?
How are you good?
And Attorney Robert George, who has handled some extremely high profile cases and gentlemen, let me, Hi, Bob, how are you tonight?
How are you doing Dan?
I'm doing great, So let me kind of set the stage here. And I might be dead wrong on this. As a matter of fact, one lawyer told me the other night I was dead wrong on this. But for those who have followed the Karen Reid trial closely that sat on that trial told the judge in July that they were hung. The judge never inquired of the jury as to if they were hung on all three counts for which he was being charged, or if they had reached a verdict on one or more counts subsequent to that.
The way this story has to developed is some of the jurors reached out to defense lawyers, and also I believe at least one juror reached out to the prosecution and said, hey, we had decided unanimously to dismiss the charge of second degree murder and the second charge of leaving the scene of an accident causing personal injury and death. They had voted to convictor on manslaughter, which was one count. So I don't know the truth of that, but the
judge never inquired. And now the defense lawyers for Karen Reid have petitioned the State Supreme Court here in Massachusetts through a gatekeeper hearing. They were looking for a gate keeper what I call a gatekeeper hearing in front of a single justice. The single justice decided not to hold a hearing, but read the file and basically said, we'll have the full court sit on this case, hear this case sometime in November. It is to me a case
of first impression. I'm going to ask both of these lawyers, who were more experience than I am, for sure, to tell me if they think the defendants have a chance
in this case. Obviously, they're arguing that if a jury did sit and did reach a verdict on two of the counts, although those that those decisions never became a verdict and that they were handed into the court, should Karen Reid have to face a second trial on all three of these charges or should the two charges be dismissed and she just goes to trial on the manslaught of charge. Let me start off with you, Bill Kickham, give me your quick sense of it, and then we'll
incorporate phone callers again. I think it's a really interesting case. I think it's a case to first impression. And I talked to one person familiar with the courts today who feels that her lawyers might have a shot on this.
Go ahead, Bill, Well, if it's not a case of first impression, it's definitely.
Impression.
Now, Judge Tony justified her declaring mistrial because was not acquitted on any Jerry's lips, and she wasn't acquitted on any Jerusalem.
Your your phone is not great, Rob, can you I'm gonna I'm going to ask Rob to try to clean up your phone because you're breaking up on us. So Rob, take take Bill and get his uh, get him on a different phone or a better phone. Let me go to Bob George, Bob, you know, I hope you you heard the way I set it up. I tried to set it up as neutrally as I could. What's what's your take on this? Did they is? Does she have a shot here? Do you think?
Well?
What you're calling down a gatekeeper, you know appeal? Is that basically a two eleven three. The argument is that Judge Canon, you know who's been a you know who is a defense lawyer for many years and now has been a judge for many years abused your discretion when she made her decision in this case, it's don't get me wrong. They look at the law, but they have to find that she she abused or abused or made a mistake in using her discretion and and and and deciding, Bob.
I've quivered with discretion for a second. My question is, and maybe I'm seeing it incorrectly here and help me out if i am. I'm assuming that that that she could have said to the jury for person, are you hung on all three counts? Or have you made a have you come to a decision or a verdict on any of these counts?
See, that's the lynchpin, you know. I the argument that Marty Weinberg's making on appeal, and that's that's lead. That's lead council. Now, so we got Marty Weinberg arguing that listen, you didn't you didn't ask the jury as to whether they had verdicts on all three counts, sorry, or what they were hung not all three counts. The problem is
the jury reported that they were hung. It's all going to hang up on whether the SJAC decides whether or not Trial judges have to ask jurors when they come back hung after they come back hung three times yep. In other words, the first two times that he give them, as you know, the charge up what they call the
dynamite charge. And so what she argued in what she argued, what she set out in her in her decision was she had is she quoted the defense as they argued once twice and three times that they wanted a mistrial declared. So it's it's not whether she declared the miss trail improperly. The question is whether or not she should have gone further in asking them whether they were hung on one, two or three g saying I don't have to do it unless you ask me to you, And that's what
they're gonna have to decide. And in this state, if you look at the case law, and I'm not saying I know and I know the case laws experienced, but it's not like I looked at the case law before I came on talking to you. I can tell you that the SJAC will be load to stick their nose into what goes on in the jury room because that's what the case law says. I'm not saying they don't have a shot because they may look at this case and as half the world thinks Karen should only.
Can I just jump in for a question, Bob, you said yes that the the SJAC is loathed to look at what went on in the jury room. I'm asking whether or not the the s JAC will establish a new practice if if if let us, they look at this case and they say, okay, it's her discretion and she there was no abuse of discretion here.
She chanced, yes, Can I step in here for a moment.
Let me just finish that point that I'll let you in, Okay. I'm just trying to say that that The question is might this court want to say we need to tighten up practice in the courtrooms and in multi count indictments. We want judges to ask juries to expedite and to move the system along and prevent a defendant from being put in a position where arguably they they're victim their due process to that because they're victim of a double jeopardy. Go ahead, go ahead, Billy.
And they need to take a corrective step here. They may do that. I think it's less likely than more likely. But if they do, there's a phrase that's going to become famous and be used all over this case and all over mistake firmative obligation if they did say what you talked about the possibly coming out and saying that we're likely phrase it that a judge has an affirmative obligation.
I'm not saying that presently a judge has that firm the obligation, but if they were to make such a change, likely obscured in terms of that, a judge has an affirmative obligation to ask the jurors these questions.
Sure, and that's how in many cases, new procedures or an effect codified. Bob, I interrupted, you can you finish on?
See Dan, I don't think you know. I don't. I'm not saying it can't happen. I'm saying you're talking about and listen, you may be right. You know, will they make new law? If they do it, they are making new law. But see judge abusive discretion is something else. Judge Town followed the law and did an abuse or discretion in following the law, so they would have to change it, and then it's not abusive discretion. But just remember one thing. Marty Weinberg's looking for a middle ground here.
The second thing he's looking for is for the case to be remanded back to the Superior Court for her to have a hearing where she hears from all the jurors. Now, that's more like it. That's more like it, because hearing second and third and fourth hand hearsay, you know, through affidavits from jurors who have never taken a witness stand. This is what happened in that jury room. This is
where it stood. If if one or two or three of those jurors don't agree with that version of events, then it is that it is, and it's over.
It's over. So, however, what happens if they remaind and Judge Canoni has an in camera proceeding and all the jurors troop in and say, yeah, we agree to acquit on one in three, you know, and and and you know, we did not a quit on two. I would hope that she would not ask where you were on two. There have been reports that it was eight to four, so that's a significant split. But it doesn't matter if
it's eight to four or eleven to one. What does she do if the jurors in camera or in open court say yeah, we did agree to a quit on one of three, what does she do then?
Then? She's in a different position. Then now she's looking at okay, I've got the evidence here that this was the vote. And then it becomes a discretionary call on her point, you know, on her on her you know, on her part, and if she says no again, it goes back up yep. And then they decide, are we going to codify new law, as Bill has said, are we going to create a new affirmative obligation to ask the jurors will tell me, are you hung on one, two, and three or you hung on all?
Three?
Are words to continue the inquiry, which, by the way, isn't what the law is, right now, that's not what the law is. So you're right, a new law will have to be created or sorry, new duties and new procedures, which is new law has to be created for Canon to not have abused her discretion. Well, for her, she has not abused.
Her I don't think she's abused discretion either. I think the question is whether or not the s JC will impose on superior court judges who are you know, who are the trial judges that on a multi count case, the defense and the prosecution are not obligated to make emotion but she asks a simple question, are you hung on all counts or are you hung on some only some of the counts?
Again back to the affirmative obligation. No, go, yeah, and you could came back to back to the possibility of of imposing an affirmative obligation of the judges. That would be a a pretty bald, a pretty a pretty surprising move, but it's possible.
Okay, gentlemen, how about we just take a quick break and that let's invite some of our non lawyers and other lawyers to call. Clearly, we are not of one mind on this, which is great, and I certainly will stand down in deference to your positions. But I do
appreciate the acknowledgment that this is. I think I think it's a fascinating, kate fascinating appeal on now again, I, to the best of my knowledge, I don't think that there is a single juror who has come forward to either defense lawyers or to the prosecution or to the judge. I've heard nothing that some some jura has come forward and said we never agreed on counts? What at three? And the fact that there's an absence of anyone any legitimate jury coming forward. That kind of adds adds a
little more drama to it, in my opinion. We'll take a break if you like to join the conversation Lawyer or not six seven four ten thirty six one seven nine three one ten thirty. I just think it's fun to talk to legal guys like Bill Kickham and Bob George, who has spent a lot of time in courtrooms over the years and understand that sometimes the sands shift within those courtrooms. And maybe we got a little bit of a seismic ship coming up. Maybe we don't, but it's
fun to talk about it and speculate on it. And we'll be back on Night Side with real phone calls for my two guests, Attorney Bill Kickham and Attorney Bob George both have spent a lot of time in courtrooms and a lot of time dealing with issues like this is and I appreciate that both of them have joined us tonight, particularly on a Friday night. We'll be back right after this.
It's Night Side Boston's News Radio.
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Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World night Side Studios on WBZ New.
Radio, My guests on the line, and gentlemen. I know, Bob, you are probably a little more strapped for time, so I can let either or both of you go at ten thirty, but I gotta I want to get a couple of calls in for each of you. Let's see what the folks have to say. If you if you want to take a position, that's fine, but I think it would be better to get a question for these
learned counselors. Danielle and Worcester. Danielle and Worster, you run next on Nightside first this hour, go right ahead, Danielle with Bill kick Him and attorney Bill kick Him and Attorney Bob George.
Oh this is this is almost a dream come true call. So there's so much but I'm just gonna first of all, I watch a lot of like law tubers. They call the lawyers from other parts of the country. The have YouTube channel, so they all kind of poke fun of Massachusetts always kind of match into their own beat. You know, Massachusetts don't set of law as compared to a ways
of doing things versus other states. One of the things that comes up a lot is how the judge picks the four person prior to alternates being named, et cetera. Is that can you talk about that a little bit? Because the jury for person is who seems to have played a big role in all of this confusion. A lot of the other jurors to come forward and said that he wouldn't allow anybody to ask questions when they didn't understand something.
So that's a great question. I was unaware of that. I know that he wrote a very lawyer like note explaining to the judge.
He's a former police officer and now it's to the physicians positions.
No more than I do, Danielle. Let me get Bob or build a comment or that. Are you guys familiar with the fella who was the four person in the jury. I wasn't sure what his employment was, but he wrote a very well written note to the judge since he read an open coort about how they were hung. He did, I don't hold the gentleman, Okay, Bob, go ahead.
I'm familiar with the note, and I was unaware that that the police. I knew there was a police former police officer on the jury, which of course stunned me in the first place. Not that police officers wouldn't make great jurors if a police officer was on trial, but I mean the fact is that that having a police officer in this particular case, especially in light of the allegations that were going to be made, was very odd. Now, as far as picking a picking a foreman. A foreman
is supposed to be picked one or two ways. The judge can pick the foreman but doesn't pick the form until the end of the trial, or picks the foreman. You know. The judge could pick whoever they want. Uh, and I believe it or not, could be best on site or on va deer. But a lot of judges just picked the juror sitting in seat number nine as the foreman, which is the front seat closest to the box.
Uh.
You know, and words, if you're sitting in the right seat, you could be the foreman. In this particular case, I doubt very much that that the cop was sitting the former cop was sitting in seat number nine, So I don't know how he was picked. I'm just telling you
how the foreman are usually picked. As far as this guy goes and his background, I had heard that there was a former cop on the jury, which made me think that someone wasn't paying attention or there was something about him in his background and his question error and is what there that made people think he would be a good juror for the defense and or the prosecution. So I don't know why tell you, Bob.
What would have your instinct told you without knowing much about him as a police officer in the case that involved the death of the police officer, and also some secondary theories as to if there were police all over this case inside the house.
You know, I would to put a cup on that jury in a thousand years. That's all I could tell you. If it was me, you would would I would?
I would not.
Not, Okay, I put it a cup on that jury with the allegations.
Go ahead, daniel Go ahead, Danielle.
That's the big that's the big hang up is no you know, because Alton, it's a picked and it bumped somebody. So she picked him so that we knew there's no way he was getting bumped. That was her guy, right, You.
Pick, you pick. You picked the foreman first, and the foreman is the only person immune to the bump. Every other juror in that box to get bumped after you pick a foreman. That is common. That is common practice.
Okay, okay, because that's one thing that's talked about in a lot of other states that they say that that's odd. And I thought I read somewhere that in Massachusetts law that that is how it works. So I just wasn't sure.
Well the well, the reason you don't pick the reason you don't pick a foreman early in the trial is you don't want someone to take charge over the other jurors when everyone's an equal, uh, while they're listening to the evidence. You never pick a formative the end of a trial. And you also have everybody maintaining attention or paying attention thinking they might be the foreman at the end of a trial. So that's why you don't pick a foreman until the very end.
And the vertict slips was the other big thing that you know, she even looked to you and Eddie to say, hey, you know you've been in my in the courtrooms before, and he even said, and I've never seen a vertic slip like this.
She.
Slip if I'm flipped. I'm not saying it's.
That nobody sees.
Nobody saw the altered version that was never seen. So they were very So there was a lot of talk, I guess the jurors that have come forward and said, there's been a lot of talk about that, and the fact that the language and some of the like the manslaughter one, this language in there about causing a chain of events that ultimately to the death. So the fact that she just simply dropped him off at this party and he ultimately died is what they were hung on.
And so so it just seemed like there was a lot of confusing language that caused them to they like overthought it, so to speak.
And I think Danielle has followed this case very closely, very perfectly. Me get a quick comment from either Bill or Danielle. I'm up on my break here, but I want to get a quick comment from uh Bill, kick him on, Bob George on anything that you happen to say.
Gentlemen, Bob pretty much nailed it, you know.
The funny thing, And the funny thing is is that a lot of people know a lot more about what went on in this case than us. And the fact is this is the reason when you listen to Danielle on the phone, this is the reason of what here or a hearing with these jurors could be a Handora's box of flying bats coming out of that court room if they ever reopened, you know, an inquiry into what
happened in that jury room. When you have these kinds of hearings, you're supposed to limit it to the to you know, the vote, what was the vote on count one? What was the vote on bound.
Bob? If the twelve jurors are sitting there and uh, and she asked them either in camera in her chambers or in open court. Maybe she does it first in camera, then she does it in open court. Did you she could say did you reach a unanimous verdict on any of the charges.
I'm not saying that she can't say that.
No, I'm just saying that would keep the pidora's box a little close.
No, let me tell you right now, the reason that judges don't stick their noses into the jury room is for the very reason, uh, that that that could come true here, which is that all of these different things like how did the jury form and treat other people? What was it? You know, was he trying to direct the verdict one way or the other? Was he trying to you know more?
Judge could control that. She just doesn't bring that up as an issue or as a question.
Right, absolutely, absolutely.
Daniel, Thank you for the call. That was a great call ahead.
Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it that. Thank you so much.
Have a good night, gentlemen, you can, you could if you're willing to stay, that would be great. If, on the other hand, either of you have an out of town commitment or an intown commitment. Uh and and you'd like to be off the jury of this moment? What what is? What is your choice? Do you guys want to stay or or get onto other things on a Friday.
Night, Jesus say a little longer. If Bill wants to stay, that's fine.
Okay, So, uh my my panel of experts, Attorney, Bill, Kick Journey, Bob George will stay. I gotta stay. But I enjoy this. I am enjoying this. I don't get a chance to talk to Bob or Bill as often as I would like. When I was a TV reporter out working in the courtrooms, we had lots of opportunities to interact. And here on nightside, this for me is a special conversation. It's one that I'm I'm just curious. This is one that has really I had no interest
in the Karen Reid case. I had no interest in a lot of the early stuff in the Karen Reid case. This issue as a lawyer interests me. We'll be back on nightside if you'd like to join the conversation, Ask a question, express a view points six one, seven, two, five, four, ten thirty or six one seven, nine three one ten thirty back right after.
This night side with Dan Ray on' WBZY, Boston's news radio.
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I'm Al Griffith's Night.
Side with Dan on WBZ Boston's News Radio.
Thank you, Al Griffith. With me, Attorney Bill Kickham of Westwood, Attorney Bob George, both very experienced attorneys here in Massachusetts. We're talking about the the latest appeal from the Karen Read case, which will be heard by the State Supreme Court in November. Very quick before we go right back to Carls, gentlemen, and that is is the whole double jeopardy due process argument as an underpinning to this affirmative
obligation concept that that we've talked about. Is the is the SJAC going to worry about double jeopardy or due process for Karen reid h in the context of this argument, or will they just focus simply on the fact that there is no affirmative obligation for the judge in this case.
Well, exit the one presently. But I think that they the constitutional issues a double jepathy, not.
That they will be around.
Okay, go ahead, Bob again, Rob, can you clean up? I don't know what sort of a phone bill is on here. We got to get them a better phone. Go ahead, Bob.
Well, you know, the double jeopardy argument is an attractive argument because it would prevent the prosecution from ever trying or again on those two counts. That's why they did they make that argument. To process is something they're saying, you know, is important to them in evaluating whether or
not the judge should have asked. So, you know, those are constitutional arguments that also set the table uh for for them to go further into the federal Court or into or if it ever got to that point to take a writ all the way up to the US Supreme Court on these issues, if they wanted to go that far with it, and if they need.
A rig would they have to have a conviction to to apply for.
A writ, Well, they'd have to. They'd have to look for, you know, a writ only if there's a conviction. But if you're making federal if you're making these constitutional arguments, you're setting yourself up for that type of appeal you know later. I mean, these are attractive arguments to constitutional lawyers and to appellate lawyers. So the bottom line is they're just they're just doing what they have to do to set this thing up for a further appeal later. If that's what they need to do.
Sure. Let me go to Chris down of the Cape. Chris on a rainy Cape Cod Chris, welcome. You're on with Bill Kickham and Bob George are both great attorneys.
I do know that I think from the outer Cape an attorney involved in the Christa Worthington trial, Bob, that you tried, you know, very very artfully.
Chris, Snow, how are you, Chris?
How are you?
Thanks? Crowding me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, small world, good.
Yeah, but you wouldn't want to paint it. Uh that that said, one of the questions I have very casually, you know, followed this, but it is a riveting, uh fact pattern. What are your thoughts as highly respected defense attorneys and you have to look at the fact Dan that hello, Dan, these aren't defense attorneys as am I. One of the questions I had casually following this is that was there an obligation on the defense to pull the jury when they came back with a declaration of
a mistrial? And was the defense a little elated that the fact that they at least got a mistrial as opposed to a guilty.
My answer to the second part of that question is yes, I don't. I don't think they have a right to hold the jury where they were they're saying, they're hung gentlemen.
They were elated when they got when that when the mistrial came through, they were quite fully stuf.
Like like Chris just said they were.
They were they.
Were out on the front steps of the courthouse, you know, already having their press conference after you know, after the mistrial and declaring victory, which of course it is a victory.
But Christ first, Chris's first question was could they pull the jury. I think they can pull the jury after the conviction comes in, particularly if you're if you're the defense and it's guilty. But can they pull the jury who said they're hung?
So the trouble is, Chris, is if they if they pull that jury, you're pulling. You're pulling them on the hum You're not pulling them on each count. But but on every case I've ever had, uhh, that I've lost that you know, you you always ask to pull the jury so you could see the hesitance. If you see a hesitance in a juror when they're announcing guilty, you know, where did you vote guilty? You're guilty, You're you're you're looking at them to see where your weak spots are.
On the other hand, even if there is a weak spot, you still cannot reach out for those jurors. You cannot reach out for them because you'll end up at the border bar overseers. Yeah, you know, answering to the panel up there. And believe me, I'm an expert on that. So the bottom line, the bottom line here is even if you know and see someone's weak maybe later, maybe later,
if they're calling you like we see. The trouble with this case is the calls are not necessarily coming in from the jurors like they came into me after them accounting Casey, I was getting calls directly from the jurors. In this case, the calls are coming in third and fourth hand hearsay in a totem bold fashion through friends of jurors or people who took screenshots of conversations between jurors. The jurors themselves, with the exception of maybe one did
not directly contact anyone. So if you do have this hearing that Marty Weinberg is looking for, in the alternative, the jurors have to come in and say it. They have to say what we're hearing that they may say. And that's where the SJAC is going to have to look at it and decide, Oh my word, I mean, I don't even have the jurors saying it directly to anyone, you know, by Appa David or under oath in the courtroom.
And now I'm going to tip this thing upside down and start shaking it around to find out what happened in that jury room. And I'm telling you whether they do it or not, and I hope they do. But whether they do it or not, they don't want to do it. I could tell you they don't want to do it.
The motivation's not there.
Well, who wants to say, really one? I mean, there was an option here to clean it up.
I hear, Bob.
According to Travis Anderson's piece into Vay's Globe, he writes, lawyers for Reid have said, now again I realized the hearsay component of this, but lawyers are also lawyers, they're officers at the point. Lawyers for Reid have said that after her first trial ended with Hunduri in July, multiple jurors contacted them to say they unanimously voted to a quit read on those two charges. Will most jurors voted
to convict her on a manslaught of charge. Travis anders is a pretty good reporter from my recollection, and we.
See Travis Dan Dan. Travis is a great reporter. But he's telling you know, news reporting isn't the same as filing an affict David in the open court. It's not the same as getting in the winnesstand. So I'm telling you that my memory, my memory of what I've seen and I've read, you know, I've read some of some of it, if not all of it, and I and I'm more closely involved in it in different ways since it happened, because I like reading this stuff. But I
can tell you that I believe. I believe that the jurors themselves have not reduced anything to writing, have not identified themselves, have not, you know, uh, directly contacted the court. And that is going to be issue for a hearing. But if the judge orders them in or the SJAC orders them in, you have their names. The judge is just going to bring them in one by one and then they're going to have to say it on the witness stand. How did you vote on one? How did
you vote on two? How did your vote on three? The trouble is you don't have that yet, and do you have enough now based on what you know? What Travis Anderson's reporting isn't enough. I'm telling you what does the court know? Conone knows. Conone knows because she's already reviewed it all and making her decision, And the SJC knows because it's part of the record appendix that's going to be in front of them at this hearing in October.
Then then they'll decide whether it's enough for them. I'm telling you, you know, I'm telling you what I think might happen for them to remant it down there for a full blown hearing like we had Chris in the McCowan case in two thousand and seven, when every single juror had to come in and then Judge Nickerson denied the motion anyway. So the issue is do you deny it now, do you deny it after a hearing, or
does just canon't hear it and then allow it. That's those are the kinds of things that perhaps the s JC might want to see.
The other album knew. This is a case that has had tremendous not only local interest, but also national interest. This is this is really almost risen, not quite to the level of an O. J. Simpson case in terms of national comportimity, not far from it. Yeah, absolutely, Chris, thank you very much for your call.
Yeah, so my point with Barb.
Chris finished, finish up. I didn't mean to cut you off.
Go ahead, christ right, Yeah, Yeah, My point is that I think it would you were on the precipice, if you were a defense attorney and elated by the fact that, oh good, we've got a mistrial, so they'll they'll drop this because all of the witnesses are on the prosecution are so compromised. However, I think that the expeditious way to have handled this by Judge Canone is to simply say, all right, we'll have a in camera review of this, we'll have a hearing on this, and it would have
avoided going up. But it's a very interesting I think in part I'm precedented in my experience that there are all a whole four or five jurors coming in on affidavits saying that.
Well, Bob George says he doesn't know of any affidavits.
But oh well, I guess I'm wrong on that.
Yeah, Okay, well so far we're all shooting in the dark a little bit because we're not experts on it. For me, it's just an interesting question, and for me, from my perspective is why would she not have said to the to the jury foreman, just as a matter of practice, are you telling the court you're hung on all three counts?
Right? That's my That's the point that I've been trying to and that's the question as to whether the s jac will move to establish an affirmative obligation on the pod of trial judges to do that.
Sure, well, sure it may not. It's the way. It's the way the court works, whether it's the Miranda decision back in the nineteen sixties, at some point the US Supreme Court said, yeah, you know, you have to give the guy the rights. You can't talk to him until you've you've mirandurized him. Gentlemen, I got to take a quick break. We got one more call, Chris, thank you so much for calling. Great to hear your boys.
Thank you so much. A great family.
You have the best, the best.
Uh.
We'll take a break, and Bob, I'm going to hold you and build for another six or seven minutes, and I'll promise I'll let you go at noontime rather at eleven o'clock. Quick, Rob, can you take the line six down please? My mouse here is not working properly. We'll be back right after this quick break on night Side.
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World, Nice Sin Studios.
I'MBZ the news radio all right.
Time for one quick call and a quick wrap from both of my guests, who I very much appreciate that Bill Kickhim a journey, Bill kick him and at Journey Bob Georgia spent an hour of their Friday night with us Jason and Norwood. Jason, Well, oh great, we just lost Jason. I got there's something wrong with my board here, Rob. If he calls back, let me know him. We'll put Jason right back up because I went to click him on and now and he's gone. Jason, call back if
you want to try to get you on. Let me get gentlemen, as we wrap this up here, the most likely result from this hearing before that, as a threshold question, do either of you take any guidance from the fact that the gatekeeper allowed this to go forward to the full court?
I do, Yeah, I do think it reflects the gravity of what's going on here, not just in this.
Particular case, but procedure procedure.
In George, do you agree with that? I don't know.
Yeah.
Judge Joor, who kicked the case up to the full benches, I believe she's new to the court and has you know. I think she took Judge Judge, she just got to point it to the bench within the last year, I believe. And the fact is it's a good move. It's a good move at the whole bench way, and because they have a right to appeal it from her anyway, Sure.
We have we have Jason back. Rob, you bring Jason up. I don't trust my mouse right now, go ahead, Jason, welcome to nightside.
I will be quick, and I think I'll try and leave time for the attorneys to respond, not the case, which might be another motivate.
I have no idea. What's wrong with your line? Jason?
Uh?
Uh? I? Rob, give it, give it a ten second? Uh fix? And and let's give it a shot. Let's give it a shot. If he's there, okay, Rob? Is he Is he there or not? If not, we're going to leave it. We lost him, okay. Well, maybe maybe he hung up in the first place. Maybe it wasn't my mouse, gentlemen, I think Bob George thinks it's going to be remanded back to canone conone. I'm not sure the pronunciation of her name. Uh is that true? Bob?
I believe that Dad is a good possibility, and it's something that can very well happen fair enough.
A bit of a prediction from you, Bill, kick him?
Yeah, I think it's a distinct distinct possibility. It's it's not a certainty it is going to happen, and it's not a certainty that it's not. But I think, I think, I think it's a good chance it may happen.
All Right, you got yourself out, and not to undermine what you think, Dan, I just don't think they're going to make new law in this case. I don't think so.
Hey, guess that's why. That's why I'm not practicing law full time like you guys, that I'm running a shark show. Gentlemen, thank you both very much for your uh, your generosity of time to know.
Okay, I really do, Okay, glad to be here.
You can find him in Westwood and Bob George easily available. I know you would. You're you're out of town tonight, and you gave us a good chuck of time, Bob, so I'm particularly intended too. Yeah, wherever, wherever.
Thanks Bob, Thank you, Dan, Okay, all right.
Absolutely, thanks Bill. That's the beauty of being able to work remotely when we come back. One of my favorite hours we're only doing about every four months or so. Brushes with celebrity. Everyone has met a celebrity. How did they treat you the good, the bad, or the ugly. This is your opportunity to tell us who was nice and maybe who wasn't. My name's Dan Ray. This is nightside. We wrapped the week on the other side of the eleven o'clock nurse