It's a nice side with Dan Ray w b Z Radio.
Well, we are about to enter into the political season, which course everybody thinks about politics, and you think about the presidential election. And tonight the Democrats are beginning their four day convention in Chicago. We'll talk about that a little bit later on, but there will be some ballot
questions here in Massachusetts. We're going to deal what with and one of the high profile ballot question we'll be dealing with the MCST graduation requirement question two, the elimination of mcast as a high school graduation requirement in Massachusetts with us is Mary Tamer. Mary is a former member of the Boston School Committee. She ran for state representative. She is the executive director of a group here in Massachusetts. And I want to make sure Mary that I get
the name exactly core of the group. I don't want to mess it up here, so let me get it right here, or you can tell us it's the Massachusetts Democrats for Education Reform.
Correct, correct, Yes, And I ran for city council in Boston.
Dan, that's said representative. I apologize that.
You absolutely absolutely, So first of all, let's start it off. There's a lot of people who know exactly what MCASS is. But give us the history of MCASS. It was an education reform that began in the mid nineteen nineties with bipartisan support on Beacon Hill, not only the Democratic leadership, the Senate President of the time was Tom Birmingham and Governor Bill Weld, and they worked on this very hard, and so it's been in existence now for almost thirty years.
Tell us what it is, what it does, and what it means, and just sure as a foundation for our conversation.
Well, thanks for having me on, Dan. This is a really important topic for us, and you know, I think for families across Massachusetts. But MCAST was, you know, one of the things that ultimately came out of the nineteen ninety three Education Reform Act of Massachusetts. So that brought us charter schools, for example, it brought us a new way that the Chapter seventy funding formula for all of
Massachusetts schools. And it also paved the way for a new system of standards and accountability for our schools in Massachusetts. And so MCAST itself, or our annual Assessment didn't come into being for a few years later. I think it was right around ninety five when MCAST came into being, and then it was in two thousand and three when it was it started that the tenth grade MCAST would be used as a graduation requirement for all students in Massachusetts.
It was about twenty years.
Yes, for the for the tenth grade requirement.
Yes, okay, Now.
If a student does and that's what we're talking about here, the these the teacher union, the teachers Union wants to eliminate the graduation requirement.
You see that as.
A preliminary test, a preliminary step to actually eliminating m CAST and the testing comprehensive testing.
Uh that that goes along with it.
But we're just focused tonight on eliminating the graduation requirement.
So that means, again, in your words, what does a.
Student have to do during the tenth grade or before they graduate to be sure that they get an actual diploma as opposed to a certificate of completion.
So so if m CAST goes away, what would they have to do then?
Is no, if it goes if it goes away, it's all off off off the books. What what is it required? Now? What is it that the teachers unions object to?
So right now students. Students participate in three or four days of testing and they take a test in English Language Arts which is known as ELA, Math and Science, and so technically they are taking this test in the tenth grade, but as our former longtime Dusty commissioner David Driscoll once said, they are truly being tested on eighth
grade standards in the tenth grade. And for whatever reason, if a student doesn't pass the test in the tenth grade, they have five additional opportunities to take the test while they're in the eleventh and twelfth grade. So for the very small percentage of students that are not passing in the tenth grade, and to be clear, it's about ninety six percent, ninety six ninety seven percent of students are
passing in the tenth grade. But for the small percentage of students who don't, they are supposed to be receiving additional supports from the educators and their schools in order to successfully complete that requirement.
Okay, So let's play Devil's advocate for a second, and that is some people, I assume the Teachers' Union would argue that the seven hundred or so students every year who graduate without the benefit of having passed the MCAST requirements as low as the standard is, they don't receive an actual diploma, so they can say that they I don't know if technically they can say they.
Graduated from they can say they completed high school.
I guess correct, but they can't say they graduated from high.
School, so they receive a certificate of completion DAN. And what's also possible though for students, you know, for students who have you know, significant disabilities, whether those disabilities are cognitive or physical, there is something called them CAST. All so is that is another pathway, But there are opportunities
for students to apply for waivers. Now that typically involved either your teacher or your school principal reaching out to the state, to the mass Department of Elementary and Secondary Education on your behalf to request a waiver whether you have you know, a challenging anxiety problem, whether there's something else happening in your life that would necessitate a waiver, you know. So there are other opportunities to get a diploma, but also to get a waiver around the MCAST requirement.
And so oftentimes those opportunities are not feazed because I think this is something families are often not aware of that, but certainly educators are aware of those opportunities.
Okay, so what taking it? Just playing Devil's advocate resection. I understand that it would be great if everybody who graduated from high school in Massachusetts, you know, past.
This bar as low as it is.
But the fact of the matter is, every year, I think is it's seventy fives high school seniors graduate across Massachusetts.
That about yeah, ive, seventy four thousand.
Okay, so if it's only seven hundred, that's about one percent that at the end of the day do not receive a diploma. Now, I'm sure the Teachers' union would argue, why stigmatize these students so that they go through life and they enter the workforce without benefit of diploma? What purpose is served? What is gained for society by that stigma being applied to a certain few?
You know, we want all students to be successful in their secondary education, but we also want them to be prepared, Dan, and so our argument here is, what are we doing to make sure that all of our students are successful. There are more than seven hundred students in Massachusetts who do not earn a diploma, but there's all so a local that's if they haven't met their local requirements. So I just want to be clear, it's only seven hundred who are not graduating simply because of not meeting the
MCAST requirements. There are other students, and again these are very small percentages, but there are other students who maybe didn't meet the attendance requirement, didn't meet the individual course requirements for their individual districts. But we believe that every child should be graduating from a Massachusetts Massachusetts high school prepared for their next step and whether that next step
is college, career, technical vocation. We want all of our students to be prepared, and we know that since we do not have Massachusetts is unique in a number of ways, and one of those ways in which we are unique is we don't have course requirements like other states. Forty eight other states have course requirements. Massachusetts doesn't have that.
We have a recommended set of requirements. And so the last thing we want to do DAN is go backward back to where we were prior nineteen ninety three, where diplomas were essentially meaningless pieces of paper because depending on your zip code and depending on what school you went to,
diploma's meant wildly different things. And so the one consistent standard we've had is that tenth grade MCAST requirement, and that tells us, it gives us some indication that students are prepared for their next step.
Last question, and then we're going to go to break.
Are these MCAST tests or prior MCAST tests?
I assume the test.
Gets changed every year, even the subject matter is the same, the curriculum that's covered is the same.
Are any of the past.
MCAST tests available for the public to see and review? I mean, you and I both I think understand that these are not challenging tests. These are not college admissions tests.
They're at an a grade level.
But are these tests available for voters to see?
Yeah, I'm fairly certain they are. And I can follow up with that with you because I know that I believe prior year's tests are available because they aren't changed. And what's also important to note, Dan, is that these questions are created by Massachusetts teachers, and so you know this is very much a collaborative process and it's educators who actually put these questions together for the students.
All right, well, let's take a break. My guest is Mary Tamer. She's the executive director of the Democrats for Education Reform in Massachusetts. They are on the negative side of question ballot question number two. We will reach out to the Teachers Union and have someone come on from the teachers Union. At some point, it is the mass Teachers Association, I believe who is really the group that
is pushing the elimination of the MCAST requirement. This is not the elimination of the testing and the third and I think the eighth and the tenth grade. But this is just the requirement that you pass an MCAST test in your tenth grade or later in order to be eligible to receive a diploma upon graduation. If you'd like to join the conversation, if you're a teacher, or you're a parent and you feel that these requirements are very important, or if you feel that they stigmatize people, we can
have a pleasant conversation. We don't have to be insulting. Six one, seven, two, five, four to ten thirty or six one, seven, nine, three one ten thirty gets you on Night's side. My name is Dan Ray. My guess Mary Taymor. She ran in for city council in Boston. Very active. I believe at one point you were active with the League of Women Voters. If I'm not mistaken,
you have an active record involved. You're the past president of the League of Women Voters in Boston as a matter of fact, if I'm not mistaken, and a former Boston school person. Yep, absolutely, Okay. Mary Tamer's my guest coming back on nights.
Now, back to Dan ray Line from the Window World night Side Studios on w b Z, the news Radio.
My guess is Mary Tamer.
She is the executive director of Democrats for Education Reform in Massachusetts, a former candidate UH in Boston for City Council.
She's also served on.
Legal Women Voters UH, and she is on the other side of the issue from the teachers unions. There's more than one teachers union in Massachusetts.
Is the teachers is it?
The Is the m t A the driving force behind this this ballot initiative, Mary.
They are, But the a f T or the American Federation of Teachers in Massachusetts has also been supportive of the m t a's efforts. But it is the m t A who who filed the question.
Yes, okay, Now, they had to get a lot of signatures to file to get on the ballot, that's for sure. What if the a concern with it, I mean, you know, be as charitable as you can, but are they is this something that they look at as onerous on them or unfair to the students.
How would they characterize.
Ye, No, it's a great question, Dan. I mean one of the things that that is said repeatedly is that teachers that some teachers feel that they are teaching to the test, you know, and that and if that were true, then all of our children would be, you know, just taking English, math and science all day, which isn't the case. You know, my boys both went through the Boston Public schools, as I know, you and I both did as well, and you know we weren't only subjected to English, math
and science, and thank heavens for that. So what teachers are supposed to be doing is in fact, teaching to standards, and then MCAST is testing students on the standards that they've been taught in the classroom. And so, you know, I understand that it's a disruption in the schedule, you know, when you have the four days of testing in March, but it really is essential for us to see what the data is telling us. I mean, it's the greatest gage we have to know exactly how students are doing,
especially at a time. And it was just this really interesting report that had just come out of Brown University at the Annenberg Institute about rising great inflation ever since the pandemic. You know, despite the fact that all you see in the news is about the chronic apps and
teeism and how much school students are missing. But at the same time we're having chronic apps andeeism, We've have more straight A students than we've had in decades, yet the test scores are not reflecting all a performance in class and so there's huge disconnects in terms of what we're seeing in grades are you know, grades are subjective and we need That's the thing about standardized testing. It gives us an objective measure of how individual students are doing,
how classes are doing, and how different. You know, we want to know how low income students are doing. We want to know how our English learners, students with disabilities, students of color are doing across all of our schools, all of our districts. And that's what mcass and standardized testing gives us.
Well, it's it's an interesting topic. We're going to go to phone calls, my guest and Carrie Tamer again. Whether you agree to disagree, we will have a polite conversation tonight. This will be ballid question number two on the Massachusetts November ballot, not on the primary ballot, but the November ballot. Robert, and you're going to start us off tonight, Robert, your first tonight on Night's side.
You called in first. You're up, Robert, Coret ahead.
Oh, good evening, Jannon, good evening. To your guest, Mary Tamer. I was wondering if if a New York Regions Exam still exist, and was MCS an effort to imitate the New York reationis exam.
Ooh, that's a great question. So the regents, I know there was a measure to also take away the Regent's exam and make it it might be it might be an optional exam at this point. See what we've seen in other states, and it's really fascinating is different states
offer different levels of diploma. And even in Indiana they have something called core forty and you could be core forty, core forty plus core forty with honors, and they literally have I think eight different versions of diplomas depending on the courses you took, what tests you passed didn't pass. In Massachusetts, we've been so fortunate to have this one,
you know, consistent standard. And I spoke with some folks of an education organization in Indiana, and when I told them about the ballot question we were facing, their response was, oh, my gosh, why would you change anything in Massachusetts? We all look to you as the gold standard. And so that's one of the questions, you know, we're kind of asking ourselves as well, because if you're going to change something,
and no test is perfect. To be clear, we MCSIE is considered to be one of the better of the standardized assessments here in the United States. But if you're going to make a significant change, why not do it through a carefully deliberated process where we're looking at what are other states doing? Is someone doing something better than we are? And also what is the high standard we want to hold all of our students too, because when you look at that we don't have required courses in Massachusetts.
The question we need to ask ourselves is do we want three hundred and you know, three hundred and fifty plus different versions of a diploma depending on what high school you went to. Or do we want to know that if you have a Massachusetts diploma that it actually means something because we know we've done We've looked at every district in Massachusetts, and we know some high schools have four or five course requirements for graduation and some
high schools have fifteen to twenty. So there is great disparities in terms of what is required of students. And so if we leave this to local control, you're not going to have any consistent standard whatsoever. And in fact, Massachusetts would be left with a lower graduation standard than states like Alabama and Mississippi.
Could I ask, would in your opinion, do you think the solar system is a basic is a basic fact that our high school students should have in their possession? And do you think that a standardized test like some form standardized test like AMCAST system of testing should have shared that knowledge like that is in the possession of our high school graduate.
I mean, I don't know if I would speak to the solar system specifically, but I think that again, I think having a science requirement, a tenth grade science requirement, is an essential part of what we would want to see from every Massachusetts graduate. And so and again, whatever the standards are for tenth grade science like that is what that is, exactly what students are being tested on. It's the standards that they are supposed to learn prior
to graduation. So I believe in all of the three requirements, which are ELA maths and the science requirements.
Well, thank you for answer, good questions, appreciate it, Thank you very much.
We'll keep rolling right after the news.
Here we get one open line of six one seven, two, five forward ten thirty and couple at six one seven, nine three one ten thirty. I'm looking at it eighth grade test here, and it's pretty challenging. To be really honest with you, Mary, I have no idea some of these questions. Now again I haven't studied tenth grade mathematics in a while. But some of them are understandable, some of them are pretty tough. This is not an, in my opinion, a really easy test. Maybe maybe what's important.
It's important to note though, to Dan, there's four different levels right when it comes to how MCAST is scored, and so there's not meeting expectations partially meeting expectations, meeting expectations and then exceeding expectations in terms of the requirement. We are asking students to hit the partially meeting expectations.
So yes, Okay, my.
Guess is Mary Tamer exacutly a director of Democrats of Education, a former Massachusetts talking about the MCST requirement for graduation, not talking about the MCAST testing that occurs at third, eighth, and tenth grade level. We're talking about the tenth grade test requirement for graduation. When she's being challenged in a valid question BALLID question number two and this year's Massachusetts
ballot questions, the opposition to MCAST graduation requirement. Passing MCAST as a graduation requirement or doing adequately in order to secure a diploma as opposed to a certificate of completion is being really pushed at this point by the teachers' unions here in Massachusetts. Back on Nightside More with Mary Tamer.
Right after this, it's Nightside with Dan Ray on Boston's news radio.
Okay, let me go to Judith in Mansfield. Judith, as you know, my guest is Mary tam Or. She's with Democrats for Education Reform in Massachusetts and we're talking about the MCST tenth grade graduation requirement.
Go right ahead, Judith, Hey, yeah, thanks.
Dan, and hello Mary. I got a flyer on my stoop and it says the ballot question will rep heel and replace the current statewide standard, so we'll still have statewide standards. So why keep the test?
Well, thank you for that question, Jude. So the truth
is there is no replacement. I think it's really important to be clear that if MCAST goes away as our sole graduation requirement in Massachusetts, there is no replacement for that, and as I mentioned in the last segment, that we will be left not only with it is essentially a lowering of the standards that we currently have for all of our high school students, but because we do not have required curricular standards, we do not have required courses.
A diploma will mean so many different things depending on what district you happen to send your child to. So that really is our greatest concern is that we want to maintain high standards in Massachusetts. We want to make sure that the children who were being left behind back before the passage of the Education Reform Act of nineteen ninety three that we're not leaving kids behind anymore, and we know that we still are, and there is absolutely more work to do here in Massachusetts, but this is
a step in the wrong direction. We do not want to go backward. We need our schools, our districts, and our students to move forward and to be well prepared for working in the global economy that we find ourselves in.
And I mean it looks like even if even if we're heaping the standards, then we're throwing out the test. I mean, why keep the test if we're we still have these standards.
Well, because so I don't want us to conflate standards and courses, and so we do have standards, but what we don't have is required courses. And so you have districts, for example, that meet mass course standards, which means the student and is getting four years of English, four years of math, three years of science, one or two years of language. But then you have districts that are not coming close to that at all. And so the question
is where would you want your child to go? Because if your child doesn't even have access to the courses that they need, whether they want to go to college, whether they want to pursue a technical career. The bottom line is, I think we all want our children to be well prepared for whatever that next step is, and I think that is what MCAST gives us, a measure of assurance, a guarantee that standards have not only been that the child has actually learned the standards that they were being.
Taught in the classroom.
Without that test, how would we know if those standards have actually been met?
Judith, what's your thought on this? You're asking some pretty good questions. Do you have a are are.
You leaning one way or the other?
I mean, I didn't realize that it's not being replaced. I was under the impression that there was going to be a replacement, So I think you know, I was leaning against or to vote yet, but I'm now leaning towards no, because if it's not getting replaced, I mean, it's scary to me.
Well, you've asked great questions, and I think you've got direct the answers from Mary. Anything else in your mind, Nope, thank you so much, Thank you, Judith, appreciate you.
Thank you Judith, And honestly, Dan Judith raises, I think an excellent point because with what the the literature that the MTA sharing literally says replace the m CAST. But
the truth is there is no replacement. And so that goes back to something I said earlier about, you know, if we want to have a conversation about what is it that we want all of our students to graduate having met, how do we what is the best way for us to determine, you know, what those factors are and what high school diploma should truly mean in Massachusetts. Let's have that conversation as adults. But to put something on the ballot ballid questions, frankly, are a terrible waste
of money and they're a terrible way to legislate. And so for the MTA to be spending whatever, you know, twenty thirty million dollars on a ballot question, how about helping those seven hundred kids who aren't passing MCAST, Like, how about we put some resources toward helping this less than one percent of students who really just need extra support to cross that finish line. That to me would be a better use of resources here I tend to.
Agree with you.
Let me go next to Steve in Stephen in Cambridge. Steve, you were next on Nightside.
Well, Hey, Mary, Hi, Mary, do you think one factor in removing the MCAST or proponents to have is that it distracts from their teaching of things like critical race theory and sexual identity fluidity. That the MCS interferes with that because they have a standard of things they have to learn, and that interferes with teaching these things that I mentioned.
Honestly, I don't believe that's the case. You know in Massachusetts schools to min no, I do not know of any high schools in Massachusetts who are teaching courses.
Like that.
So I think, honestly, what we have seen through these last several years is that the scores have continued to go down. And there's no question that the decreasing scores were exacerbated by the pandemic and you know, time out of school for students disrupted learning time. But those schoolers were going down, whether it was NAPE, which is a national assessment, or MCAST, which is our annual standardized assessment
here in Massachusetts, we've seen scores going down. And I think the distraction factor, frankly is people don't like looking at this data because it's really hard when you see that only forty two percent of third graders are reading proficiently in Massachusetts. In Boston, it's only twenty nine percent of third graders are reading proficiently. That's these are really hard things to wrestle with and acknowledge and try to solve.
And so I think, you know, one of the expressions we use is don't break the mirror because you don't like what it's reflecting. I think right now the MTA wants to break the mirror because the data are reflecting some really hard truths about what students are not getting in our schools, and there's a lot of work to do to turn that situation around.
Well, just to pursue that a little bit, Mary, a lot of people who noticed what their kids are being taught during the pandemic because they were being taught online. A lot of parents saw that and they objected to matters of what I just mentioned, critical race theory, sexual identity fluidity, and so are you telling me those things aren't being taught that what a lot of parents saw
was exaggerated. I mean, because that would definitely result in lower test courses if that's what the kids are learning rather than mathematics and history.
Yeah, I will say this. We have a lot of schools in Massachusetts, you know, thousands of schools, so it would be hard for me to know what was happening during remote learning and individual schools. I certainly have friends and relatives whose children were in school during remote learning, and I heard stories from them about frankly, you know, not enough time with actual lessons just because you know, a six and a half hour school day became a
two hour school day for example. I haven't heard any specifics from the folks I know about the topics that you mentioned, but I do think that the lack of sort of that six and a half hour schools they becoming a two or three hour school day. There's no question that students were not getting the adequate learning time they needed to be doing work on grade level. And I think we are still seeing the repercussions of that time out of school.
And can I asked Mary one more question?
Yea one more quick one goes I'm a little past my break.
Mary. Then why do you think the m cash scores were going down before the pandemic?
Well, there's I'm glad you asked that question. You know, with reading specifically, Massachusetts as a state, we are not following not all of our districts are using research and evidence based, which is the way you're supposed to teach children how to read with phonemic awareness, and the way that I learned how to read many many years ago, probably the way Dan learned how to read as well.
And so I think that whether it's our our English and reading instruction or our math instruction, I think that we are falling behind from following research and evidence on how children learn how to read, learn how to do math. And we have a lot of work to do in that area. It is a real when I say that only forty two percent of third graders are reading in Massachusetts, that is a real problem for us.
Thank you both very much. Mary, you're an excellent spokeswoman.
Thank you, Thank you.
Appreciate you. Call back at Nightside right after this very quick break.
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World Nightside Studios on WBZ News Radio.
I have three calls waiting. I'd like to accommodate all three. We'll set the standard forll me. Please, you're an experienced caller, go ahead.
Will okay? So Mary, I must say Dan, I love her as a call I mean as a guest, and I will say when I first heard you say Democrats for education reform. I said, oh, man, here we go. Because democrats the idea.
From where I'm from, education reform is to throw away all standardized testing, completely degrade education, and have a bunch of brainwashed left wing automatons.
Because I'm from New York and I have seen what happens when we start to take away standards testing. Like when the woman asked before, well, if we have the standards, why do we need to test you guys are very kind, but simply you need the test so that we know if we need the standards. It's that simple. And the standards that you have seen, the bar seems to be
very low. Okay, as a matter of fact, what's the purpose of unions really at the end of the day to make sure that their members do the least amount of work and get paid the most for it. So now they're seeing the these numbers.
Of people probably would disagree with that.
Characters I'm from, I get it, but you know.
Yeah, I get it. I get it too.
And people, I'm pushing you a little bit here because I got two people behind you.
Go ahead, I gotcha, But I'm telling you, you know what I think that Mary's trying to say. And unfortunately you got to watch out about what you're saying, Mary, because they might start calling you a conservative ooo or something like that. All right, but this is common sense democrat speaking right here, that we need people to be able to achieve certain standards and have education in this country. Go forward. I remember when progress went moving forward, not backwards.
Thank you for being to Mary.
Great call, great call. What are your best? Let me go next, Betty in the bout Betty, you gotta.
Be quick for me, Okay, Dan, I will be quick.
I'm very conflicted on this. I do not believe in that teachers are teaching to the students. They're teaching to the test. I'm a product of the period of time when there was no es L and my native tongue is German and I did not know how to read until I was two years old, and it impacted my life tremendously.
You didn't know how to read until you said you were.
Two thirty two.
Oh thirty two.
I'm sorry because I was saying, Jesus, if you knew how to read when you were too, that's pretty darn good.
Great.
No, my native tongue is German.
Okay, no, I get it. You didn't.
You didn't know how to read in English until you were until you're thirty two, Okay.
Nor, I wasn't taught in German either.
I was.
I remember sitting on my aunt Dania's lap and she would read the comments to me on Sunday. But they're not teaching to the students. That teaching to the test. And that gives me great pause.
Okay, let me get a quick, very quick comment from Mary, and then I got to get one other person and go ahead and marry quick comment.
Yeah, And I would say again, my own children went through the Boston public schools, and I am very involved in the lives of family and friends whose children are in schools, and I just have to respectfully disagree that children are being taught lots of different things. They are being taught to the standards, and then they're being tested on those standards. But they the teaching to the test all day. Unfortunately, I think it is a talking point
of the MTA that has stuck. It's easy to remember, but that has not been the experience of my children or the other children in my life.
Betty. I got to get one more in here. In fairness, but thank you.
I want you to call more often, Betty, and call earlier in the program because you were one of my most interesting callers.
I'm sorry to short change you. Yeah, thanks Betty, talk to you soon. Robin and Hingham. You got about a minute, Robert, you're the last call of the hour.
Go right ahead, I'll go quick. Thanks Dan Marias. What happens if a student right now does not pass the ENCAST in tenth.
Grade, so they get five additional chances to take the test between eleventh and twelfth grade and again, and it is the school that is supposed to be giving that child additional support so that they actually can pass the test.
So if this question passes and there's no measurements, like, are the students still going to get that extra help or or is that just going to go away?
That's a really good question. I don't know. I think that's the thing, is that because the ballot question it's you know, it's just there's not a lot of detail there, right, it's just eliminating the test itself, and so we honestly don't know what it will lead to other than taking away the only graduation requirement we have in Massachusetts, which we believe will be harmful to kids and set us back thirty years in terms of the standards, the high
standards we've set here in Massachusetts, Robert, we.
Will have We'll have more more discussions on this, I promise. And I hate to cut you short because you've asked a great question, but.
I'm flat out of time.
Mary, is there how can folks get in touch with your organization and your group if they want to support you or have other questions.
Sure, we have a website where people can sign up. It's no on question two dot org. And so people can reach out, they can sign up, they can reach out to me at Mary at d F E R dot org. Happy to answer any questions that people might have and happy to talk about this. And I do want to say we have teachers that are standing with us on this. And I know one of the prior callers made a statement about teachers, but we have teachers
who agree with us. I don't want there. You know, it's not pronoun that everyone thinks the same way, Mary Rolland we'll do.
More on this, I promise, and we'll have you back.
Thank you so much, Thank you, Dan, You're very welcome.
We come back right after the ten o'clock news, and we're going to talk about the Democratic Convention, which is now well underway in Chicago.