It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Costin's news radio Try Well.
Today, the Massachusetts State Supreme Court, in their infinite wisdom, decided that the Massachusetts MBTA Communities Act is constitutional and can be enforced by the Attorney General. But there was a big caveat, and so a story that we have covered now for well really just about a year has reached the big fork in the road, and we have two guests tonight who are going to talk about it. One is Denny Swinson. She is a Milton resident. The town of Milton is steadfast in its opposition to this
piece of legislation. This legislation which is imposing obligations on one hundred and seventy seven communities are in Massachusetts, and one of the attorneys on the case, Attorney Paul Hogan. Denny Swinson, welcome to Nightside. You've been here before. Attorney Paul Hogan. Welcome for your debut here on Nightside. How are you this evening, Attorney Hogan.
I'm good, Dan, thank you, thank you for having me on tonight.
Okay, I'm going to get hi Danny. Okay, Attorney Hogan, I get to you in a couple of seconds. I want to start off with Denny Swinson. Danny, you have articulated before Milton's concern and we know that Milton voters not only have actually voted this, this a proposal cooperation in position. Well, however you want to characterize it down at the equivalent of a town meeting. But I think you also, if I'm not mistaken, have changed the members
of the Bordist selectment a little bit. I mean, this is a very important issue in the in the town of Milton. Why is that? Can you just sum it up what the opposition is and then I want to talk to attorney about the implications of today's decision.
Oh sure, thank you so much for having us. Yes, in Milton, we have been trying to work with the state for years to address some of the issues that are preventing us from meeting the goals of the legislation. It really comes down to this one size fits all approach does not work for Milton. And I'm learning from over thirty other towns that they've been having the same sort of hardship that Milton has been having in trying
to work through these guidelines. And you know, the headline that I take away from reading the opinion and the court order coming out of the SJAC today is that Milton did not violate the law. Milton did not violate the Act, and the state has been enforcing illegal guidelines. I think those are the biggest takeaways for me. And you know, I think one of the key sentences is in the conclusion that the hlc's current guidelines were not
promulgated in accordance with the Administrative Procedure Act. And I'm quoting this from the s jc's conclusion, we declare them ineffective and as such, presently unenforceable. I think this is really big news, and I'm happy to share it with you tonight.
I appreciate that so, Attorney counselor I look at this situation as a political effort. This this is going to benefit developers, and developers support politicians. And I know that it passed while Governor Baker was our governor and it is being implemented by Governor Healy. But this, to me, I always thought, and I am not I'm a lawyer,
but I'm not at your level in terms of this case. Certainly, I all we thought that zoning provisions were sort of sacro saycd H and that as long as communities applied them fairly, meaning they did not discriminate against people and know its constitutional rights were violated, a community could decide what type of zoning they wanted. Now, if Beacon Hill wants to tell every town in Massachusetts that they need a bowling alley and arcade and three golf courses, what's the difference.
Well, I think that's a great point, Dan, and you know, you are right. Zoning has always been sort of the primary the power was with the local communities outside of being an attorney. You know, I was the political head of the Watertown government and we rezoned that town. So zoning was always the purview of the local communities here. You know, I think think you talk about a political view.
There seems to be this great desire to just increase housing, but there's a danger that, you know, the ends just they think the ends justify the means, and they bypass the requirements for these kinds of rules. I mean, they just really bypass the Administrative Procedure Act. I represent fourteen
small businesses. They're really severely impacted by these regulations, and for whatever reason, it seems like that the agency just didn't seem to value or care about these particular requirements from the Administrative Procedure Act.
Are those fourteen small businesses spread out amongst one hundred and seventy seven communities. Are they all primarily located in Milton?
They are not?
Actually, I believe that I'm this counted.
I think that seventeen businesses Milton won a Branks, one in Quinsey and one in Hamilton.
Gotch.
You need to have ten businesses for this type of challenge.
You know, the Supreme Judicial Court ask for amaricus.
Briefs back in March of this year, and these small businesses got together and they had ME prepared a brief for them, citing the lack of attention to the requirements from the Administrative Procedure Act about small businesses.
Okay, Now, today the governor celebrated the decision and said that these guidelines would be written and in place and effective by Friday. Tomorrow's a holiday, federal holiday, as I recall, And to me, that seems to be somewhat ambitious. And I assume that whatever is written and presented will ultimately also be litigated or would I be wrong on that.
Counselor well, it certainly would be the kid, because what's required, Dan is that they're supposed to develop a plan for small business.
And hold hearings, and you're not going to.
Have a meaning co hearing by Friday. So it seems instance.
Here and not really valuing what happened today.
I agree with Day.
I mean, the governor and Attorney General seem to celebrate the decision, but really the Supreme Judicial Court came down and said that these these regulations are no good, not unfortuable. So that's a that's a full stop, and I think they have to return to the detailed procedures of the Administrative Procedure Act.
Okay, we are we're talking about a decision today by the Massachusetts States Supreme Court. I know that if you continue to listen, folks will get you up to speed. Her My guests Denny Swinson, a Milton resident who is very much opposed to this. She's in the majority within the town of Milton, and also Attorney Paul Hogan, who is representing some seventeen small businesses. Fourteen of these businesses are in Milton, but three others are in other communities
here in Massachusetts. And we're going to just talk about this with them a little bit more briefly, a little bit on the other side, but I invite you to call and whether you live in Milton or in any of the other one hundred and seventy seven communities, some of which have actual NBTA service and some of which are merely contiguous to towns that have NBTA service, and another set of communities are contiguous to the towns that are directly contiguous. So it's it's complicated, and we'll try
to keep it straight for you. And if you'd like to join the conversation six one, seven, two, five, four ten thirty or six one seven, nine three one ten thirty, we get to as many calls, as many points of view as possible right here on Nightside. After a couple of very quick messages.
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World night Side Studios. I'm WBZ News Radio.
We're talking with the two guests about the MBTA Communities Act. Now again, the Healthy Administration is celebrating this as they would you would think it as a total victory. But my guest, Danny Swanson, who is from Milton, and Attorney Paul Hogan see it quite differently, very quickly, if I could, Denny and I want to get to as many phone calls as possible amongst your supporters in Milton and in other communities today. What's been the reaction to this decision
as it's been reported. Do you think people understand the how that it has been reported, perhaps not as accurately as it should be.
That's a great question, Dan, I've been following this, you know, Milton's been the citizen of Milton. I've been working really hard on this for a couple of years now, and I really feel like, you know, a year ago, Milton was catching up with a lot of the issues that are before us. And now, you know, in the last year,
I've seen the other towns sort of catching up. I really saw a lot of momentum building in September and through the fall when things had to come to a vote to town meeting, you just saw the learning curve just keep going at a pretty good clip. The momentum. You know, the citizens seem to have the momentum on this one. Now.
Attorney Hogan, do you think that the court I was not in court for the arguments that I'm sure you were involved in quite heavily. Do you think that the judges, the justices on the State Supreme Court understood the implications of this act as it has been constructed, meaning yeah, everybody wants to see more housing, great, but to basically impose it and relate it to the MBTA, the implications for a lot of these communities is going to be an explosion in the number of kids they haven't that
they will have to educate publicly in public schools. That's going to mean more teacher, is going to mean perhaps more buildings. I mean, there's some economic consequences down the line here above and beyond more housing units in the community, there's some financial implications and the judges. Did the justices seem to either address that or be aware of that or was that even a factor in the arguments of the briefs?
Yeah, I did this fine point at the end of the decision. It's not just a small business impact plan wasn't developed. The law requires that they also do a fiscal analysis both for the first year, second year, and then for five years. So the agency should have done a fiscal analysis about the impact of this project in the first year, second in five years. And you're absolutely right. I mean, here, you know the impact on the police
and fire, the need for more people. That there was talking Milton that we would need a new fire station for twenty five hundred more units in the East Milton area. The water and sewer is already its limit, you know. The schools, as you mentioned, they're talking about building a six school here already in Builton. They did mention sort of in the last page that one of the requirements of the administrative procedure at the so called APA is
that you'll file a fiscal statement. So the justices did at least acknowledge that to your point, But I don't think overall in the big body the decision because one of the reasons I'm on tonight is because the brief that the small businesses filed was the one that really was the slice that calls the court to say that the regulations can't be enforced. But there are other parts of the brief, and Denny was working on this with a lot of people that really talked about the impact,
and I think the court missed it there. I think the court doesn't seem to grasp or what a terrific impact this would have on some communities and parts of our committee here in Milton.
The court also did not I read the decision. I didn't read it as I would. I mean, I read it carefully, but I like to read decisions three or four times carefully. I didn't see that they talked much about the penalties that are associated with this law. They talked a lot about whether or not the Attorney General could enforce the law, and by implication, I guess the funding that Milton residents and resident taxpayers would be deprived of, or any community would be deprived of. It's very much
a carrot and a stick. Not only will we hit you over the head with the stick, but we'll also you're not going to get any of these carrots. And these are tax dollars that people have in Milton and elsewhere paid into the state. The court didn't seem to go into that in much much depth or detail. Or did I miss it?
I'm go ahead, I answering, Oh no, I noticed something.
It's interesting. In the final footnote number twenty three, it says I'm trying to boil it down for you, but as HLC will need to promulgate guidelines consistent with the administrative procedural requirements, those new guidelines may differ from the ones presently in place. We need not reach whether the
existing guidelines are consistent with the Act. So in other words, it's like the justices are acknowledging we're not going to evaluate whether or not the penalties that the that the guidelines continually added on too are consistent, because we've already told you the guidelines are unenforceable and therefore they're going to need to be repromulgated, and therefore therefore we're not going to evaluate them. We're just telling you. Yeah, that's
the way that I read that footnote. I thought that was interesting because, as you might recall, Dan, it started out in the Legislative Act as four funds that towns would opt out of, in effect, if they didn't do what they would lose those four funds. And then as as we went through our year, Milton went through our year and finally got to tail meetings, the guidelines, we're adding additional funds, and it went from four to seven, to thirteen, and then it got up to twenty by
the you know, it just kept growing. So those those guidelines that were added are not enforceable, so they're they're not gonna, you know, find a decision on whether or not they were consistent.
Yeah, it's like saying that you've been convicted of something and the penalty calls for, you know, two to three years, but we're going to hit you with twelve twelve, twelve years or twenty years, whatever we might decide to do. It seems a little unfair. Council. A quick comment on you, do you read that the same way as as Denny reads it.
I do. And there was some talk in the decision that Milton had said, well, you know, we can opt out and not get these funds. But there was you know, not clear to me executing what the what the ESJC was saying that what what are the enforcement actions I guess requiring the town to create this zoning district. It seems unclear that there was any anything there at all.
Yeah, I think the reference was that that they could be enforcement inequity, and I don't, frankly, frankly understand what they mean by that. I do understand what equity means as opposed to at law, but it was there were there were some holes in the decision. So we'll we'll see. We're going to get to phone calls. Denny an attorney hole, and I hope you both can stay there six one, seven, two, five, four,
ten thirty. Those lines are full. However, if you want to take advantage of a couple of lines one other line six one seven, nine three one, ten thirty, we would get as many people in as possible, not looking for speeches, looking either for questions or or or sixcinct comments as to how you feel about not only today's decision, but this MBTA Communities Act in general. It was interesting today. I was reading one press release from the Pioneer Institute
and they they're thrilled about it. And that's a very interesting organization. It's generally a very free market type organization, almost a libertarian aspect, and it's it was interesting to see the Pioneer Institute come down in favor of the Court's decision today. But that's that's a side note that I won't ask you guys about. We'll just take a quick break here for some news and get the phone
calls right after the break. I think it's an important issue because it really does talk about how much again absent some constitutional deprivation. Obviously, none of these communities are being accused of compromising or denying any individual or group of individuals their rights. To move into their communities. This is not a redlining sort of case. This is like do it our way or the highway, and I just don't like that tone coming from Beacon Hill as a citizen.
That's all. We'll be back on Nightside right after this.
If you're on night Side with Dan Ray on w B Boston's news radio.
We're ready to go to phones. My guest Denny Swans Swinson. She is a Milton resident who has been in the forefront of this fight against the MVTA Communities Act, And when I say against it, I think she's willing to cooperate as long as the state makes clear what is involved and just doesn't steamroll the community. That a fear characterization.
Denny, Yes, that is that's that's fair. I think there, you know, there's a middle ground to be had and I am hopeful that we can take this opportunity to create an avenue, you know, talk through the tough issues, and there are tough issues in each town. In Milton, it's the misclassification of rapid transit. But as you know from having you know shows on this in another town, it's a safe access in and out, or in many towns it's the lack of hospital care or access to
a hospital. In another town, I was talking to a farming community. They have serious concerns about not having enough water or access to underground water. They're a farming community, and there is no avenue to talk with the state.
The state is totally insensitive to this part of their concern. So, you know, I talked to residents all the time and people from other towns, and there just needs to be an avenue for our towns to be able to address our concerns and to work together, you know, to find a middle ground and to find solutions.
Let's try to find some solutions with our callers. We have attorney Paul Hogan here who's representing small businesses about seventeen small businesses, and Denny Swinson, who is an activist. I think she were now a community activist in Milton. Let's go to a couple of callers from Milton. Let me go first to Kerry, who's calling in for Milton. Carry. You are first this hour and night side with Denny Swinson and also attorney Paul Hogan. What's your question of comment?
Carrie Hi Dan, thanks for taking my call. Happy New Year and happy eighteenth anniversary. Thank you for taking the call. I appreciate you covering this topic because you're really one of the few people who has been very helpful and relentless in covering and uncovering I think kind of the root cause of what's going on behind here. As you have said a couple of times on your program, previous programs, not tonight, follow the money, right, there's a lot of things going on here.
Money. There's no doubt about that, Yeah.
No doubt, no doubt. Yes, yes, absolutely, any good reporter knows that, right, And I really appreciated hearing Attorney Hogan come now and also speak about some of the important points about that lack of consideration of small businesses. And that's not just an issue here in Milton, but that's an issue that I hear from many people in a number of other communities, including Marshfield where I grew up. It's an issue, and it's switch it's an issue in
many of the other towns. Are having the same hands that some of the towns that are grappling with the same issues.
That we are.
And as you accurately reported, you know, of course, this is sort of a battle for the freedom of our rights and when you speak about this here we are this will be the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of Lessington, Massachusetts is the birthplace of if you will are independence from tyranny. I feel like this is a somewhat tyrannicle, tyrannical, you know, ruth somewhat against many of our towns. Then we're all trying to do good things about providing housing, homes,
you know, everything that we can. Janny brings up a lot of great points. But my question really to Governor Haley if she would ever take a question from me. I have loved in many you know, emails through her portal.
If the law is truly aimed at addressing the regional housing crisis, then why is she at the same time filling up our precious few spaces for emergency housing for citizens battling you know, homelessness, addiction, the danger of the streets and places like mass and cats, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, with illegal aliens. And it's sort of seems kind of ironic. Maybe, I don't know, strange that this
ruling came out today. I didn't know. I don't know if Attorney Hogan or Denny expected this would come out today. I was surprised. Maybe I'm just missing it.
Well, you never know. The State Supreme Court issues rulings on their own schedule. Trust me on that.
They yeah, no, no, you're right, Dan, I.
Realized that, Well, we'll just leave that question. I don't want to go off into a different question. Well, we can leave the questions like that, but let's if either Denny or Attorney Hogan want to address it, they can, but we can leave it as a rhetorical question, or you can comment on or Attorney Hogan.
Thank you, Erry, Thank you any Hogan. I think it is more of a rhetorical question, but it is. It's a good point. I mean, if we have this type of housing crisis, it's driving them to bypass the Administrative Procedure Act. Why are we using up these other resources? Uh for people that way?
Okay, all right, thank you very much. I appreciate it. Gary, will we talk again, Thank you, Thank you, great night. Let me go next to Mark is in Milton as well. Mark next on Nsich. Go right ahead.
Hey, Dan, thank you so much, and thank you for being the person over the course of the past year or so has put some light on this topic. Very few of the media outlets are covering this in an embiased manner. To say the least, I'm calling in to support my good friend Denny Swinson. I've been one of her foot soldiers, got to know her through all this,
and really have enjoyed working with Denny. She kind of lit the match under this whole thing, which I think in the big picture has really gotten a lot of people across the state and the effected communities really to wake up and start to question these decisions in our government, the rubber stamping going on by this legislature, the rule by fiat which seems to be taking place from Healey, I'll leave my comments brief, but what just kind of
strikes me is the insincerity and in disingenuous. Even at the break up at the top of the hour, you had comments from Andrea Campbell saying she wants to work and is willing to listen from day one, and I've been involved with this over a year now with Denny. When we've pleaded, and Denny has pleaded to talk to the Lieutenant Governor and the governor and Drisco. They stone Wall, this community did not even want to hear our concerns.
There was a meeting here the night before the town wide vote that Lieutenant Governor Driscoll was on and people who were not identified, as you know, huge supporters of the MBT act were forcibly taken out of the meeting, not let in to enter because they were so afraid of having any questions or dialogue. So the fact that Campbell and Heally and Driscoll are all saying that they want to talk with communities, so far they've shown nothing
but contempt for communities. And you know, a final point here, this governor just seems to have no accountability to anybody, for constituents. I've never seen a politician who who wants to go to war with the people who pay the taxes like she has. The SJC. Now she seems to have contempt for by saying, but you know, they issued this order saying that basically go back to the drawing cord and you know, you know, make these guidelines properly instituted.
And she's saying, well, we'll have new ones by Friday. Well, where's the hearing's going to take place by Friday? Like like she she seems to be out of control. And the fact that finally, she you know, is spinning. This is this huge win for her or whatever. Hey, who knows, she rules by fiat, so she missed. She might not pay attention to anything anybody else says. But her administration
seems to be entering a death spiral. Between the Stuart healthcare debacle, the immigration debacle, the billions of dollars that's you know, coming to cost us now another four and twenty five million dollars. She's begging the legislature for the Bluehill Capital cronyism scandal, which you know, kind of got swept under the rug her, you know, wiping away her her friends there and making sure they're not held accountable. And the eleven percent pay rate pay raise for the legislature.
So she she needs to win, and she's gonna take She's gonna take her pound of flesh out of Milton. Apparently, I see no evidence that she or anybody else in that administration or the legislation of that matter of fact, will pay any heed to having any meaningful dialogue with with these communities, including Milton and all the others. I hope they do. But hooray for Denny. We got to
win today. They can call it anything they want, but they're supposed to go back to the drawing board now and give towns a little bit of input and impact studies. We'll see if they do it. But thank you so much Dan for the call, and thank you Dan.
Okay, you're welcome. Mark. I appreciate certainly something doing something new rules, promulgation of regulations by Friday. That seems a bit rushed. Well, we lost Paul there for a second. Paul very quick comment to Mark's point, which I'd like you to reinforce the administration basically saying, hey, we'll just write some new rules by Friday and everything's honky. Dori, I don't see that being possible.
That's just in genuine I mean it's absolutely impossible. Hearings, you know, have to be scheduled usually ninety or one hundred and twenty days out front doing a fiscal study of the impact on communities for the first year, second year, and five year. I mean that takes months, probably takes a third party, large accounting management firm doing a small business.
I mean absolutely, Dan, I mean when I heard that, I was like, what, because you know what the point was is that the SJAC while they opened the door and said you have the right to make this law. They said, these guidelines that these regulations have to have to go away and you have to start from scratch. But again it looked, it seems to that they never really appreciated the requirements that they have to undertake to issue these regulations, and it was really kind of a stunning statement.
All right, we've got to take a quick break. We're going to be back with more phone calls here on Nightside with my guest Dennysewinson, a Milton resident and attorney Paul Hogan and represents about seventeen small businesses impacted adversely potentially by the MBTA Communities Act, and feel free to join this conversation where I've got one line opened six one, seven thirty b right back on night Side.
Now back to Dan Ray line from the Window World Nightside Studios on WBZ News Radio.
We have pack lines, so I'm going to ask everybody if they can, in deference to everyone else, to try to be as concise as possible. Greg and Shrewsbury. Greg, you're next on Nightside with Denny Swinson of Milton, attorney Paul Hogan.
Go right ahead, great, yeah, yeah, yeah, My question is as follows. We have a referendum election on the fourth, and I think people are minimizing the guidelines. I mean the guidelines. I think of the meat of three A. We look at what the compliant deadline was, the number of units required, which is the biggest impact to the community, So for us fifteen hundred units, the fact that they
even classify somebody like Shrewsbury's an adjacent community. So I'm really trying to find out why, right what our community not vote know now, considering we have on the table a proposal that went through town meeting for a zone that is compliant to nothing, because if those compliants guidelines that's I'm missing something are gone. I see no reason for our town to move forward with adopting a zone when we have no idea of what we have to comply with.
Okay, let's get Attorney Hogan to briefly respond to that concerned.
Attorney Hogan, I think that's a legitimate concern. I mean, the regulations that were presented by the agency have been stricken by the Supreme Judicial Court, so I think the process should start again, that new regulations have to be prepared, and you shouldn't go through the process and the other cities in town should not be proceeding on the current regulations. Greg, exactly how I see it.
Great question, great answer, right to the point. Greg, keep us posted on Shrewsbury.
Will you absolutely I'm well there?
All right?
Thanks, thanks very much. Let me go next to Rita in Boston. Rita you and next on nights. I got to be quick for me. Please read it.
Go right ahead, Okay, I'll try. I'm a little The only way I know about this subject is through your program, because I can't get a buster paper anywhere in Boston. But does the mbt A, it's called the mass Bay Transportation Authority. Do they go throughout the state of Massachusetts like through the Pioneer Valley.
No, they serve one hundred and arguably one hundred and seventy seven communities. These are communities basically eastern Massachusetts.
It's been available for this law that's been crafted for everyone.
They want to oppose this law on one hundred and seventy seven communities either that have an MBTA service, or communities that contiguous to communities that have MBTA service, or even communities who are two communities away. A sort of contiguously contiguous.
Like down to the Fall River, or.
You have to look at the map and break down all the towns for you. But it's pretty much in Massachusetts. The one exception is the city Boston. They are not impacted by this. The community's more MBT service here. Yeah, fair enough, Okay.
It just seems that imposing these so called solutions on these communities is terrible.
It's that's that's the sense of that's my sense of it. I think it's unfair because I think local communities. The one right that local communities have is to zwe if so if they don't want to have ten liquor stores in in in Wellesley, they can do that. I don't even think Wellesley has a liquor store. As a matter of fact. I think that's part of the You got to go to Natick if you want to find a package store still, I believe.
And then you've got to deal with developers who want to put in these big, ugly, horrible buildings, you know, these concrete blocks. You know, it's just not right.
Rita, I gotta let you run because I got four more behind you. Thank you, Thank you much appreciate your call. Thank you Okay, great night, good night. Let me go to Brian and Milton. Brian Wilton's dominating our calls here, you go right.
Ahead, Thank you for having me on my concern. You see in the news that we lost because of the constitutionality was held by the court. Well, I look at it completely differently. You see, the constitutionality of the original law that was written and by the legislature is fine. It's when the guidelines were promulgated that screwed it all up. So our concern was the constitutionality of the guidelines not given towns of voice, and that that's why I believe
Milton won today with the leadership of Dennis Winston. I also find that the governor and the age are both just ingenuous about this whole thing. They didn't try to work with the town, and now to try to have an emergency act this weekend, it's almost like they avoided the law in the first place, the SJAC called them out on it, and now they're trying to avoid the law again by declaring some kind of housing emergency so that they can force uh new laws or guidelines on
us without legislature approval. So it's just and then when they talk about all these towns that have complied, they forget to mention that they had a gun in their head. You know, if you put a gun to my head, I would go along with anything you asked of.
Me, so particularly if that gun is loaded.
Agreed. They were forced to agree because they were afraid of what was going to happen to them.
And Brian, I think you're you're you're agreeing with everybody on the panel here and with your host. Uh and I thank you for your call, but I want to get to a couple more folks, and I hope you'll appreciate us. We're gonna we will stick on this topic. Okay, thank you very much. We'll go now one more in Milton. Andrea is in Milton Andrea. You're next on Nights Side. You're own Denny Swanson and Attorney Paul Hogan, go right ahead.
Hi, thank you, Dan. Can you hear me?
Okay?
With all my might, I will avoid various aspects of this discussion, but at the end of as someone who lives in East Melton and has been at Anny side with huge appreciation for what she's done and her dedication, I just want to reflect on outside of anybody's opinion of what the decision actually meant today that in this time that that citizens voted, know, there's been so much more awareness across towns across the state that one of
it happened. You know, it's very hard for people to know what's going on at all times when things are just kind of swept through, and so I'm very grateful to the town, most especially to Denny for drawing attention to it, because whatever it means to redraft the guidelines, which I think is a bigger deal than most are given credit to.
I hate to do this to you. I hate to do this to you, but we're flat running out of time, and that's the problem with sometimes when the ten o'clock hour draws near. So I think you've made your point. I think you've made it well. Hats off to Denny Swanson, and hats off also to Attorney Paul Hogan. And let us hope that through programs like this, people will understand exactly what happened today. Andrea, thank you for your call very much.
Thank you, Dan, You're welcome.
Denny Swatson, thank you for your continued commitment. Attorney Hogan, thank you very much for appearing tonight in the quot of public opinion, which I think is a very important court room if you get mine.
Thank you so much for having us. Thank you, you're welcome.
Thank you, Dan, thank you very much.
You're very welcome again. The quote of public opinion is one that I think may may sway the day here. We'll see what happens eventually. Both viewer welcome to come back anytime. Thank you both very much for what you're doing. Well,
take a break. When we get back on the other side of the nine o'clock news, we are going to talk with Todd Lyons, the National Assistant Director of Ice, and talk about maybe what's on the horizon with the change of administration in terms of immigrants who are here who have broken the law, in what their fate will be. Back on night's side right after the ten o'clock news,