It's Night Side with Dan Ray i'ebs Costin's new radio.
Before we get to our guest this hour, just gonna take one moment to give you an opportunity to win a couple of tickets to see Celtic Thunder. If you a caller ten, I'm gonna give you the number. Dial away six one, seven nine three, one ten thirty. Now, please do not take these tickets unless you're gonna use them, because they have great tickets. Call on number ten right now at six one, seven, nine three, one ten thirty. We'll win two tickets to Celtic Thunder at the Premier
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He will.
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going to clear them as quickly as he can. Just keep calling, and as soon as we get a winner, he will let me know again. Two tickets to see Celtic Thunder at the Premier Theater in Foxwoods Great great great location, great great performance, November seventh. That's a week from Thursday, and you have to call the contest line, which is at this hour six.
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We will let you know.
In the meantime, I'm going to introduce my guest this hour and I am delighted to be joined tonight by with a young man who I spent some time talking with today, CJ.
Leconte.
He's from the group called Massachusetts for Mental Health Options. They are supporting a yes vote on ballot question number four. And by the way, I'm told we have a winner, so you can stop dialing. We'll give away tickets tomorrow night, Thursday night, and Friday night, also right after the nine o'clock news. So if you didn't make it tonight, you've still got three more shots tomorrow night, Thursday and Friday night. So CJ. Laconte, CJ. First of all, welcome to Night's at How are you tonight?
I'll doing great, Dan, thank you for having me. Congrats to the winner of the Telvision.
Absolutely, those are good tickets.
So Jay, you are probably going to shadow the stereotype that some people might have of somebody who is a one of the spokespeople from Massachusetts for Mental Health Options voting yes on question four. Question four is described as a law proposed by initiative petition limited legalization and regulation of certain natural psychedelic substances. First of all, tell us
what is meant by natural psychedelic substances. We have had a conversation of about ten days ago, twelve days ago now with a doctor from Toft's University of Tufts Medical School, doctor Messir Gami, and he is opposed to question four.
But tell us what we're talking about.
And then I'm want to know what your experience is and what brought you to this point in your life where you were advocating for the legalization and regulation of certain natural psychedelic substances.
Yeah. Absolutely, having to dive into that. So the natural substances, I mean, it's not a synthetically derived substance if it's from a plant or a fung gui based and you know what we're seeing. I mean, we can get it. We'll get into this later. But what we're kind of seeing, because it is a very nascent space, a very tricky
space to kind of get into. What we're seeing from the FDA clinical trials going there is that there's synthetically derived versions of these substances, of these psychedelic substances going through clinical trials. Now, what we're talking about is the natural natural fungi based plant medicines that have long histories of traditional, traditional and indigenous use that date back millennium.
They have extremely low addiction potential almost none, and there's no known lethal dose for these natural substances.
So yeah, yeah, well we're not talking about what people would think of as LSD and doctor Timothy Leary type stuff.
Correct.
Correct, Yeah, LSD is not on the is not on yes on four, it's it's yeah. So it's a psilocybin silicen, which is the active metabolite of psilocybin, and I can get into that, but it's a psiloicibin pilicen mescaline d MT and I began.
Okay, so you know a lot about this because you've experienced this, as I understand it.
But your background is interesting.
You're a local guy who went to West Point, graduated from West Point. Tell us about your time in the military and what you've done subsequent to your time in the military.
Yeah.
Absolutely, so. I graduated from West Point in twenty seventeen as an infantry officer. My first duty assignment was out at four Cars in Colorado, where I had the opportunity to deploy as a rifle portune leader. You know, I think it was the greatest honor and privilege of a lifetime to leave thirty six soldiers in the deployed environment. It was also really the first time that I, you know, saw the devastating toll of mental health firsthand.
You know.
While we were overseas, I had four soldiers attempts suicide in one of which I unfortunately witnessed when we were over there. You know, not even six months after getting back, we did tragically lose one two suicide. You know, I think as leaders, we reflect the praise and shoulder the blame.
And that suicide really hit me hard. At my next assignment, you know, I began really having nightmares, started lashing out, my marriage started suffering, and I just spought to myself that this will get better when I get out, when the uniform comes off, it'll be all sunshine, rainbows, right, and be more wrong. I got out in about two year or a little over two years ago now, in March of twenty twenty two, and was going to business school.
The world should have been, you know, all all great, but it wasn't.
You know.
I was on nine different medications through the VA and was spiraling, you know, and just completely numb to the world and incapacitated with apathy, and you know, I think and the worst part about kind of My story is that I did what I was told to do right. Like I I followed the quote unquote orders right. I went to the VA. I sought out help and want to help you get you know, is a ten minute medication management appointment every quarter and nine different medications to
keep track of. When that doesn't work, you start to think that you're the problem. You start to think what's the point of even trying? Right? And Yeah, went into my uh second semester at business school, I I started having some suicidal ideation. It was actually hospitalized at the Philadelphia v A with that suicidal ideation. And yeah, that was a low point. I've never been more kind of dehumanized, abandoned, alone, afraid ever in my life. And it's actually in that.
Moment, we'd we'll be deployed overseas.
Middle least Kuwait, Jordan, Okay.
And that was still, uh it might not have been a hot zone, but it certainly was a zone where you had to be careful. And uh uh you were you you were not in the in the in the comforting arms of the the the U s A. You were you were in in the territory and a part of the world where bad things could happen.
Correct, Yeah, correct, we uh, there were some tricky situations over there, yes.
Okay, And because of what you witness is really impacted you. I want to take a break and I want to talk about how you came to find some help with these psychedelics, and also invite people to call and join the conversation. My understanding is that this, of all the ballot questions, the polling that has been done on this question is the one that is as close close to fifty to fifty as any. We will have a conversation
on Friday night at nine o'clock. I spoke with you earlier about this, and talked with doctor Nasa Nasa Gami earlier this evening, and we'll spend about an hour on Friday night at nine o'clock with both of you in a conversation, not a debate, but a conversation.
But I want to give you an.
Opportunity tonight to take as many questions as possible and explain why you feel this is a frontier at which we as a society have arrived, and why it is something that will be beneficial to you and others, not something that everybody should be doing. This is this is not as a broad based and I want to make
sure people understand that as well. Give you a chance to explain that tonight and also a couple of nights from now when we have both points of view, when we bring both points of view together, which I think is an important an important hour for people to hear. We'll be back on night's side. You have the numbers, folks, six one, seven, two, five, four ten thirty or six one seven, nine three one ten thirty if you'd like
to speak with my guest. He is a veteran military veteran graduate of West Point, has an NBA from the Wharton School, and is currently going to the Kennedy School of Government.
Uh.
And he's he's he's just twenty nine years old. And although twenty nine and I'm sure seems pretty old to him, for those of us who have passed that age and long past that age, we realize that he has an entire life in front of him. He has sacrificed and served,
and he finds some help with these psychedelics. And I think that he is a very effective spokesperson, just as doctor n Sergami is a very effective spokesperson on the other side of this issue, and it's an issue that I think people should think about long and hard in advance.
If they haven't voted already. We'll be back on nights.
I feel free to join the conversation right after a couple of messages.
Now back to Dan Ray Live from the Window World to Night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.
My guest is CJ. Leconti, West Point graduate in twenty seventeen, served in the military, was deployed overseas, and while he was there, he witnessed some things that most of us would never witness in our life a lifetime. And he has seen and himself suffered from suicidal ideation. And he has participated and received these natural psychedelic substances, and he swears that they.
Have helped him.
How were you able to legally be treated with these It's they're only legal, I believe in. You told me two states oregone in Colorado, correct, tell us, tell us the procedure and what did it do for you? Positively?
Yeah? So, I mean just a back up like I was because of the way the laws are in this country.
I was.
I was in Philadelphia and Pennsylvania, right and and it wasn't legal there at the time, and I was in my lowest point in that locked unit in Thesilydia, and the doctor there told me two things, right. He told me, One, this medication cocktail that you're on, the nine different pills that you're on is a lethal mix. This will literally kill you if you continue taking them. And then two
he told me you should really try psychedelics. And that was that was the guidance that I got because he told me he couldn't tell me what to do for fear of losing his license, essentially right. So so I was left in the dark, essentially right and literally right, And I'm, you know, very particular about what I put in my body one and two fair to say, relatively straight edged. I didn't even drink in high school and
I'm kind of a loser in that way. Ah, So I was completely taken it back, thank you, but just taking a back right, like I'm being told to take psychedelics, which are to me this thing that the hippie fringes of society did in the sixties. Right, I'm like, dude, what are you talking about? Right? And long story short, I really dug into the research and was justmpletely blown away. I did just study after study after study from very reputable places JOHNS Hopkins, NTU, Imperial College to London, and
learned a lot about how to do this. The thing was is that I couldn't get into a clinical trial. I didn't have the money to go overseas, so what's left? Right? Luckily I had my my wife who's an icy universe, and I was able to procure you know, it's for
those listeners. And I don't know if you know as well, like it's legal or student I legal is decriminalized for unlimited cultivation right now, and the municipalities in Massachusetts already and a plethora of other cities throughout the United States. So it's it's accessible, right, it is what I'm getting at. So I was able to access it myself and have a controlled experience at home with my wife who's a healthcare profession and that experience completely and yeah, it's saved
my life. Saved my life, bar like no question, save my life.
How long? How long is the experience? Is it like a couple of hours? Is it a day? How long is.
It a couple of nights? It's yeah, roughly four to six hours for sillim speaking about psilocybin mushrooms and.
And and do you need another person they.
Are with you ideally, yes, absolutely, And in the regulated framework that's being pushed forward, yeah, it's best to have a someone there to administer it for you and help guide you through the experience. They act as a real grounding force for you when you're in you know, in the in the medicine, in the experience.
What does this what does this product do to you during that experience? In other w it's this is something that that you feel and you literally feel, you know, like you the world is spinning or is it something that you basically endure.
It's a relatively pleasant experience.
And when you come out of it, your view of yourself and the world is a.
More positive one. How would you describe it that way?
I mean, that's a I think describing the psychedelic experience. It's very ineffable. It's really really challenging and I've tried a lot, believe me, and how to describe it. It's kind of unlike anything. It's not you know, it's not like drinking alcohol and getting a buzz. It's not like smoking, you know, anything like that. It's there are visual components of it. There are like some hallucinations. You know, that's like a scary word, but it's not that you're not
going to like see a demon, right. And for me, I was I again, this is sounds odd, but I my grandfather passed away when I was twelve, and he was like my rock, my mentor, my coach, my biggest fan. And I met him in my experience and he at the time, right, I had such a low view of myself, like I hated myself, right, Like I was thinking of killing myself. And I felt so alone, you know, right, I felt like just on an island of my mind,
in my in my mind. And and he took me through my different parts of my life and showed me, you know, oh one ye're four. Look at how loved and supported you are at this birthday party. Look at how loved and supported you are at this lacrosse tournament when you're eleven. Right, And they was just showing me how all of these dots were connected throughout my life. And and I, yeah, I don't know, I don't know how to describe it as it was.
I have to ask you this CJ Okay, guys, I'm sure people in the audience. Do you feel that through this experience you met with your grandfather in what for him would be in afterlife?
Uh?
Or do you feel that your mind was released so things that your grandfather probably had told you when you were four and when you were eleven, uh, were positively reinforced.
That's a great question. That's a great question. And and honestly, I've been grappling with that a lot myself. Candidly, I I I I do believe it's a little bit of the ladder, you know, Uh he has you know I
he yeah, I mean he was. He was that guy, you know, my mentor and told me all of these lessons throughout my entire life, you know, play the game the right way, hand the ball the rest when you score, celebrate with her boys in the locker room after the game, right, And it was just a class act and and kind of instilled all those lessons in me, uh, from from my time growing up. But but I yeah, I I I don't know. I wish that I did. I've definitely been grappling with not a lot myself.
All right, let me take the pressure off you here for a second, and let's we got to go to a newscast, and in the meantime, we're going to invite people to call six one, seven thirty, Triple eight, nine to nine, ten thirty, six one seven, nine thirty. Feel free call if you have a question, that's great. If you have if you want to make an argument to the pro con that's fine. But I'd like you to focus, be guest focused, is what I'm asking my callers to
do this evening. We will have a conversation on Friday night, uh, forty eight hours from now, actually, excuse me.
More than forty seventy two hours from now.
Let me get my math right here Friday night at nine o'clock with CJ uh and with doctor Gami who who was with us about ten days ago, Doctor Nasier Gami UH, who takes.
A very different view of this.
And it will be a civil conversation, not a debate, kind of a discussion, conversation, and we hope that will help you decide as to how you want are going to vote on ballot initiative question. For as you can tell, my guest CJ. Lacanti feels very definitely yes and doctor Gami expressed very definite no. So there's not probably a lot of overlap and agreement, but I think we'll have
a great conversation on Friday night at nine o'clock. Back on Nightside with my guest, who's a yes vote on proposition for a limited legalization and regulation of certain natural psychedelic substances.
CJ. Laconte. Back on Nightside after.
This, You're on night Side with Dan Ray on w B Boston's news radio.
My guest the CJ. Leconte.
He's a graduate of West Point, has an NBA from the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania. He's currently enrolled at the Kennedy School of Government, and he is an advocate for Question four on the Massachusetts ballot this fall. Let us get right to phone calls and we'll talk to as many people as we can between now and ten o'clock. Let me start off with Thomas and Quincy. Thomas, your first this hour on night Side with my guest, CJ.
Leconte.
Hi, guys, should I turn the radio the speaker of.
I think it's a good idea as sure that My producer Dan told you to turn that radio down because you'll be distracted if you right.
Right now, go ready ahead, tight, I'm Thomas. Hi, mister Dan Ry, first and foremost, you are one of DCL men, right that carried the radio news, but you carried the television news with that redhead flat top. But anyway, we get to mister C representative for possibly alternative H treatment for Depression obsession PTSD and and the kind and the like.
Yeah, I think that you you kind of have have covered the waterfront here? Do you do you have a question for for my guest?
You said that I covered the waterfront. I am a long showman and I was gonna bring that up the last strike. I've been a long showman for twenty two years. I suffer from PTSD. My question is this, Uh, I'm microdos right, Ah.
I don't know what microdose means? What what what are you referring.
To is a small amount of psilocybin?
Yeah, that I was involved that everybody else was involved in.
Dan Mister Dan, Mister Dan Ray, I would never tell you that, uh micro dosing. H. We have to find equilibrium, right and tripping and all that and masculine. I tell you I suffer from PTSD. I don't know. Maybe I don't know. I suffer from a loss. I don't know. Maybe, But have.
You talked to you doctor, Tom?
Have you talked with a psychologist or have you sought professional help?
No, I don't have a PCP, a PHP. I don't have that because I only lost by seventy hours if I could have had that.
But no, But Tom, just listen to me for a second.
I'm asking you whether or not you've ever, you know, gone to a psychologist, a psychiatrist and talked about your problems.
How did you get No, that's a big note. Okay, enough, No, I have it.
Unfortunately, I have it, and I think that's my next step.
I hope, I hope it has to be.
Of Course, I'm a proactive guy. I'm not calling to bring the show down. I'm calling it to let's let's let's look at these alternative roots.
Because okay, so you're on the Yeah, okay, c J One, Why did you say?
Yeah, absolutely, Thomas, thank you so much for for calling him in and really appreciate it. I think that, yeah, yeah, and and and really apparent and really appreciate the work that you do and can can sympathize with the with their situation. Brother, I mean I wasn't very similar waves. You know, we all no, no, yeah, exactly. We all struggle here and and uh, you know, not being able to reach out to anybody, or not feeling like you
can reach out to anybody, not even have it. I mean I when I got out of the military, I had no idea how to you set up an appointment with a PCP, let alone, how to find a therapist, you know what I mean. So I definitely feel you there and and rough tough. Yeah, it's tough.
I mean I think that's why I have undiagnosed PTSD, undiagnosed mental illness.
In the like.
And but listen, a show like this, mister dan Ray, you are on the cutting edge, avant god of mental health and awareness.
I'm going to hang out.
I appreciate it, and I hope you continue to listen. Thank you right back at you.
Absolutely well, well, can I get that.
For first time?
Call always here, We'll get the digital audience laws here absolutely.
Mister cg a West point to thank you for your.
Good night.
Well, as you can see, there are a lot of people out there who might benefit from this. Let's continue our conversation. Let me go to Andrea and act and she's been holding on a long time Andrew, I'm going to get you in here before the commercial break right ahead.
Thank you for yourself and the prior an for serving our contry. I'm sure it's not easier, you know, coming back with sometimes the way that America is right now. I'm sorry for the trauma that you went through. So I'm a healthcare professional and I really believe in anything that treats or helps anyone with depression or any kind of always moss, so my understanding, and please correct me if a yes vote says that you can form an
advisory committee for regulation. Yeah, and then number two was is anyone over twenty and can grow, use or possess? So I guess my question is why not just allow it an inpatient setting? Why take the chance of allowing someone to have hallucinations on the outside If there's no regulation committee at this time, like, why not take the step to have a committee and then have studies and then all loot once it's you know, people aren't jumping in front of trains, are seeing bats flying or you know.
And I know that the VA, unfortunately is very very you know, it's a difficult place because there's so you know, healthcare today it's just very difficult to you know, there's so many people trying to get into.
The system, but it's not the most supportive.
A great question, Andrea. Let's let's see J respond to that. It's a it's a great question. Go ahead, c J. Yeah.
So why the home grow is is in the ballot measure? Is? I mean, it's the AMAS official recommendation is for the elimination of all criminal penalties for possession of psychedelics for personal use. And in fact, I would actually argue that the home Growth provision is actually providing a framework to what is already happening all around us right here in Massachusetts, you know, I mean eight municipalities have already allowed unlimited
cultivation for personal use. So what this ballot measure does is actually standardize and narrow those parameters on a statewide basis. And there haven't been any issues in those eight municipalities yet. And I think that the criminalization of natural psychedelics really fuels the black market. It does not prevent people from accessing psychedelics, but it does force them to navigate a very risky underground market or travel out of state or
to a different country. And you know what this does, is it allows people to have an open and honest conversation with health care providers such as yourself. You know, for me personally, I wasn't able to talk to a doctor about this because when I tried to open up about, hey, I'm thinking about taking psychedelics, I was told, don't talk about that, You're going to take your your VA benefits are going to get taken away.
Right.
So so what this does is allow people to have those conversations with their doctors and then, you know, God forbid, right, something does go wrong when you are under the influence of a psychedelic and you need help, isn't it better to make the call to an EMT, make the call to nine one one without the fear of being arrested without you know. So that's kind of that. That's kind of why the Home grow Personal Use Provision is in the in the balot no no, and thank you.
I get the whole regulations over regulations, over regulation, but why haven't they already sent up an advisory com many who have tested, you know, especially here in Boston and Massachusetts with Harvard and m I T and others, to make sure that it's safe.
Well, there's a real that's a real political question. Andrea, let me tell you, the legislature probably is not going to be on a cutting edge on something like that. And I think that there's a lot within the medical community, and we'll talk with them, uh doctor Nasa Gami, uh with with CJ on Friday night, and I hope you'll listen at nine o'clock, because, uh, this is not a
drug that's recognized by the DEA. It's still on as I understand that, and I'm not an expert, it's on the DEA uh proscribed list.
And as a consequence, a lot of doctors and a lot.
Of medical institutions don't want to jeopardize their their relationship with the government by getting involved in something like this.
Fair statement, c J.
Question, I question.
One thing you can get it in patient?
Is that correct? And go in the sight?
No? No, no, no, okay.
No, yeah, that's wheah you have to yeah, yeah, you have SJ.
It was my characterization fear in terms of why the hesitancy of the medical establishment.
Probably oh yeah, yeah, absolutely absolutely. Yeah.
And young kids though, we're going to be responsible not to pass it on to like high school kids. It's their only twenty one I guess I don't trying to say yeah, well.
Again, we're probably gonna probably Andrews, I'm up way past my break because I didn't want you to hold on much longer, and unfortunately I have.
To take a break.
But we're going to get back to this on Friday night with both points of view with CJ along with doctor nir got me of tough medical uh, and we'll we'll go to some of these questions and if you feel, because you have a real interest in this, you want to get involved in calling on Friday night, you're more than not going to do that as well.
Okay, Oh, thank you, and thank you J.
I'm so thank you much.
That's Andrew back on Nightside six one seven thirty six Month seven nine thirty will conclude this this hour with my guest c J. Leconte again West Point graduate has a degree from Wharton and NBA from Wharton and is currently at the Kennedy.
School and he is dealing with and an.
Advocate for psychedelic substances, the the limited legalization and regulation which is question for in the Massachusetts ballot this fall.
Back on Nightside right after.
This, now back to Dan ray Line from The Window World. Night Side studios on w b Z the news radio.
I'm going to get one more caller in here, and that is Patrick from Charlestown. Patrick, you're on with with my guest c J. Lacontent do write hid Patrick?
How you doing?
C J?
Hey, Patrick, We're good.
How you doing?
Little T tell you what your question of comment?
My My question in comment CJ is a you know, I'm a I'm gonna lie of the Kennedy school myself, and I have to say, CJ, I'm disappointed in you. No, I don't think any reasonable person believes the way.
Let's take it a judgment free zone tonight. Patrick. Okay, you don't really know him.
You don't know, but he's yeah, I don't know that. You have that right to be disappointed. You can disagree with him, but don't be disappointed. Go right ahead.
Well, I do have a right to say I've dealt with a lot of the carnage of the drug crisis in Massachusetts and seeing what it's led to and and listen, listen, mister Laconti, you're going to be remembered like Francis Forbes in the Sackler family. When we have people who are suffering from mental breakdowns and suicides and deaths resulting from this, and you will be long gone with Uh what did you You formed an LLC? Right, you formed an LLC to to profit from this, Right, it's formed that. What
what's it? Out of Duxbury? So that's your LC? Listen Loo, Kanti, Lookanti, we're onto you, buddy. You're going to kill him? O?
Yeah, you know what, Patrick?
You want to make it personally, we'll a little end the conversation. You got the plank ready there. I think Patrick needs to take a swim. It would be very very helpful, I think to get him going. Here we go, Patrick, enjoy see Jay. I have no idea what what that gentleman was referring to making some pretty interesting allegations. We have no idea who he is, no idea what his experience is. You have explained your experience to us fully
and totally. It's pretty clear to me that from your life experience, this is something that that you feel very deeply about. And I'm sorry that I ended on what I would call a negative note, but as I said to my producer before we put Patrick on, I said, Patrick is always it's one of these guys who is often mistaken, but never in doubt. He will have a
strong point of view whatever the issue is. And I figured he's either going to be one hundred percent behind you or he's going to accuse you of all sorts of skull dodgery and motivation. Uh. And I just if you want to address anything that he said to feel free if if you don't, we can just move on.
No, I mean disappointed in me for seeking out, healing and saving my life. So yeah, I you know, I take that for what it is. I think that's an interesting and interesting.
I suspect that that you would be more than happy to compare your military service and your academic records with Patrick. That's the thing that's beautiful. The callers can remain anonymous in these programs CJ. And even even with the caution of telling him that, I don't know how he has a right to be disappointed in someone. There's a lot of people who I disagree with on different issues, but I've never felt so superior to other people then I
would say I'm disappointed. I might disagree with someone, but it's just it's just if folks. If folks want more information on the yes position, and we will have you with us on Friday Night with doctor Gami.
Uh.
And if you have any questions on how that's going to go, I explained to today, feel free to reach back to me, as doctor Gami is more than willing, uh more than able to reach back to me as well. It'll be a civil and a polite conversation and there'll be no spurious allegations against against anyone. How can folks get in touch with the Yes Yes on four committee?
If if such a committee exists?
Uh? Yes on four? Is uh m a for mental health uh dot org. So that's m a f O R mental health dot org And uh yeah, that's probably the best way to get involved. Yeah. I would say I would give out my email and you could reach out directly to me. But I don't know if people like Patrick Patrick out there, I might take that back now, So but yeah you can.
Yeah, no, I think go through the group and go through the institution.
And it's just disappointing that people, uh, you know, through the anonymity of a telephone call, they can make allegations which have no basis in fact, and even if there's a basis in fact for them to question someone's motive it's totally unfair. So I apologize for Patrick, but probably not the first or the last time I'll have to apologize for him. And I'll look forward to talking with you and doctor Gammy on on Friday night at nine o'clock.
Thanks so much, CJ.
You so much appreciate it, and thank you, and thank you very much for your service.
By the way that I should.
Have well, thank you for your service.
We'll be back here. Thanks again, Patrick, CJ.
We'll be back on night side and we're going to talk right after the ten o'clock news at Emerson College.
Poster Spencer Kimball.
There's an election next week, and around this time next Tuesday night, we may have a pretty good idea who's going to be the next president of the United States. We might get a little bit of an insight from Spencer right after the ten o'clock news.
Stay with us.
We're calling all people of interest in politics right after the ten