Offshore Wind: What It’s All About

It's night Side with Dan Ray WBZ Constance Radio.

All right, welcome back everybody, as we begin the nine o'clock hour, and we're going to talk about offshore wind here in New England. And we had scheduled a guest who is with us, Dustin Delano. He's with the New England Fisherman Stewardship Association. Dustin, welcome to Nightside. How are you, sir.

I'm doing well. Thanks for having me.

You're very welcome. We had also extended an invitation to the group called the New England off New England four Offshore Wind Coalition. We had not heard from them, and we are now being joined by Grand Provo, who is a member. I'm not sure, is it Provost? Give me the correct pronunciation? Okay, so it's the anglicized pronunciation, Provosts.

You got it the second time.

Okay, that's good. That's good. The New England for Offshore Wind Coalition. So let's just have a discussion here so that we can get everybody's point of view out as to the positives and the negatives of the proposal. And I expect that both of you will treat one another, you know, professionally, and we'll also take phone calls if people want to join the conversation. So let me start off. Grant tell us about the New England New England for

So we're a coalition of labor, social justice and environmental organizations. You have the e l M in there, you have some members of different a fl CIOs who represent different labor unions. You've got building trades members. And the coalitions ends from uh, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont.

Okay, well, there's no offshore wind in I assume in Vermont at least maybe off of Lake ship Plane.

But now, but they have green energy goals. To meet their pro you know, they need to procure green energy from someplace. You know, Massachusetts gets green energy from hydro Quebec.

So yep, I'm very familiar with that. So how long has your coalition been around.

I've been a member for five years. I'm currently the vice president of the main a f l c i O and I'm a business agent Fire Workers Ocal seven in the state of Maine. It was a lot smaller back then. It's grown considerably over the last five years.

But yeah, I assume the answer is five years. Yes, okay, And then where's your funding come from? Is it just come from labor unions?

No, I mean it's in viros too. I'm not sure how they do their funding. But yeah, and we're just coalition members.

No, No, right, you're the vice president of the organization. Right.

Wow, the AFL is different. It's an umbrella of different labor unions. You know, it could be like the Postal Service, could be teachers there.

Don't confuse me here. I'm just trying. What I'm trying to get in my arms around, and I want to do this with both of you. Is you're an officer in the New England for Offshore win coalition. I thought that's what if I misheard you, I apologize.

No, I mean it's a it's a little different. It's just a little technicality. I'm sorry. I don't need to confuse it. You know, we're there's a steering committee of a few people, and then there's a bunch of different coalitions and businesses. Black Economic Council of Massachusetts. It's over one hundred one hundred uh businesses, labor associations.

And organ Well, let me put it like this, who is going to build the turbines? Uh? Who's who's funding the construction of the turbines that your organization would advocate for?

Uh? The developers would fund the projects and the building trades would provide the labor for those No.

I get that. No, I I know the developers are not going to be out there in the water, trust me on that. So who are the developers? Uh?

Well, n the developers to be just.

To be to be candid, grant, let me, you know, let me go across to the table there. I assume there is significant business corporate interests here as well as you know, labor unions which would like to see people get jobs. I get that. So I'm just wondering where's the money coming from. Where's the money coming from labor unions? Is what I'm trying to get at.

Well, I mean, the labor unions are nonprofits that get paid by membership deduction.

The labor unions were Grant, Grant, I get it. I'm a member of a labor union, a member of SAG after Okay, I've been a member of a labor brief over fifty years. Okay, so I know how that works. But what I'm trying to understand is who is behind the effort to build the turbines. The labor unions might construct the turbines, but where's the money coming from for the projects? Is what I'm asking? And if you don't know, feel free to tell me that.

Well, I mean, I guess I got confused because I mean ratepayers say for the projects, for the developers to bid, and the developers put the money up front. A funding for our coalition would come from whatever money.

I don't care about funding for the coalition. You're trying to do about answer my questions directly or maybe I'm not articulating them.

Well, I'm sorry.

That We'll come back to it. Okay, Dustin, how are you tonight? Dustin Delano of the New England Fisherman Stewardship Association. Dustin, tell us about your organization. How long have you folks been around and how large is your membership and who supports you? Yeah?

So I'm with the New England Fisherman Stewardship Association and we are a very new organization, very grassroots. We represent commercial fishermen all across New England, and any consumer who also wants to participate and be involved with us as well has opportunity to be members. We currently our membership is right around nine hundred active members and businesses. And like I said, we're spread out from Maine all the way through Connecticut and Rhode Island.

So you're opposed to offshore wind far I assuming I'm aware of that, correct?

We are?

Yes? Okay? Why are you opposed to what? I'm sure the other side is going to say, natural clean energy.

I think the primary reason for our opposition is that, you know, we represent the interests of coastal communities and and you know the fishermen that they depend on to exist and continue on in their their generational legacy, and offshore wind directly displaces all of those people wherever it comes.

How close if you know, how close are some of the turbines that would be built, say off of Maine, which might affect you, how close are they to to not only fishing grounds, but how close close are they proposed to the coastline?

So in the Gulf of Maine, they're they're further offshore. I think the closest, the closest commercial site is supposed to be around forty just over forty miles off shore. There is a test site being developed by the State of Maine which is about twenty miles off shore. And these sites are you know, it's not about how close they are to fishing grounds, it's that they are in the fishing grounds.

So therefore residents are not going to I mean, the water is the horizon and the ocean is about sixteen miles, so if they're twenty to forty miles away, people are not going to see these from the shore. But you're saying it's going to affect the fishing grounds. What will it do to the fishing grounds?

Well, that's still remains to be seen. But I can tell you that I've sat through I couldn't even count presentations that I've sat through in the last twelve years

Which will you say that they're not embedded in the in the seabad, you say that they're sitting on cement which is sitting on the seabed.

They're sitting on cement which will be floating on top of the water column, and they will be anchored to the bottom. And the types of anchoring systems vary depending on who you talk to, but a lot of the original planning that was going on was for like three sets of anchoring systems for each turbine with chain links the size of a pickup bed and scope anywhere from seven to one or nine to one to the water death.

We're going to Okay, I'm getting into the weeds a little bit there. Let me take a break. When we come back, I want to talk about the pros and cons of this and the success that we've had around New England so far, and of course we had the problems with the blades breaking off off the coast of Nantucket just a few months ago. We'll get to all of that, My guests on the line together and I'll have them at some point. They'll probably want to talk

Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World night Side Studios on DUMBZ News Radio.

We're talking about offshore wind and let's talk from the perspective of a Grant provost who's with the New England for Offshore Wind coalition Grant, I'm going to ask both you and and Dustin to keep you your answers a little tighter because I want to make some room for some phone calls, which we'll start right after nine thirty. What's the long term benefit here if we put aside

I think a big benefit will be state stability and electricity rates. They'll come in and they'll stay at a rate as opposed to fluctuating crisis with whatever happens geopolitically in the in the world. There'll be a war in Ukraine and you know, Russian oil won't be allowed on the market, and or Opak will make a decision that they'll hold back oil production and then prices will go up because of the cost when you have a lease area they've been in at a certain price.

What sort of So would this be electricity and power just for New England or would you your companies that that you support. Will they be selling this product nationwide?

I think when it gets on the bread, the electrons don't discriminate where they go. I mean, that becomes part of the overall package. But you know, it'll be a stable source of electricity for New Englanders.

And I understand it's a fungible commodity. I do get that, okay, But the question is if we have turbines off the coast of New England impacting our fishing industry, are we going to incur a greater cost and inconvenience to provide uh, you know, stable electric rates for people in other parts of the country. Are we being asked here in New England to do more than we should? Give me A quick response to that.

I would say, now, you know, it's all part of changing our energy source into something that's more climate friendly.

So what the rest of the country is is your your focus is on New England. I get that, But is this happening yeah, all on both coasts, and is it happening in the in the the central part of the country. Obviously they're not doing offshore winter mines, are they win there's a lot of wind in places like Texas, Oklahoma and Kansas they can contribute as well.

Yeah, there's a lot of wind, and there's a lot of solar, especially in the southwest. California's going to do floating offshore wind. That's going to be similar here. And you'll have, you know, a thirty year lease at a set rate that they're going to be paying in so you'll have initial construction jobs as well. You know, all these jobs are going to be one hundred thousand dollars a year jobs. Vineyard Wind created a thousand of them.

Vineyard. Then you have the company that went out of that basically stopped the project. It was Vineyard Wind the project that has the problem with the blades.

That's I mean, I'm not an exec for Vineyard Wind, are familiar with it, but you know, from what I've heard say, single blade a situation and they halted their project. I'm not sure if it started up again, I believe you know, it would be a matter of time.

That's fair. That's fair. Yeah, Dustin, let me come back to you. So Grant has just talked about the benefit. You know, it sounds to me like there I don't know if they're going to try to retrain you guys. Will this destroy the fishing industry? Is it just going to make your job a little tougher and everybody's got to sacrifice a little bit? What do you what do you say on to points that that grants us raised?

I think that there are so many environmental concerns that are unknown that make it extremely difficult to predict what the for sure outcome will be. What I do know is that the spatial impact it does completely remove fishermen from any areas where you know, floating offshore. When technology is used, it's not possible to coexist in those areas.

Can those areas be limited dust? And so that let's say it's a five mile square mile area that's limited and you've got the rest of the ocean. Is there is there any way to compromise her?

So it's you know, we have a number of fisheries in New England. You know, we have what people hear most about is a lobster fishery, a trap pop fishery, but we also have a very large mobile fleet and those fisheries focus on very different types of bottom and so basically all the bottom out there is covered by some sort of fishery, and so when you start pushing people around and moving things around, everybody has to sort of overlap or or move and you can't just you

Okay, gentlemen, what's going to take a break here for the for the nine thirty news we come back. I'm going to ask the two of you to address concerns that each of you have just to try to get this. The conversation has been very good, and I appreciate both of you being gentlemanly here, which is great. Obviously there's a lot at stake. We'll continue with our conversation. We're talking about wind, offshore wind and its particular impact on the fishing industry here in Massachusetts. It is not an

This Night with Dan Ray on Boston's News Radio.

Before we get to phone calls, let me kind of give a challenge to each of you, and that is Grant. Why don't you explain to Dustin why his business, his livelihood, has to stand down and allow these farms or wind farms, whatever you want to call them be built. I think that you must recognize that although you have a lot of workers and probably you know construction people anxious to work out there on these projects, it is going to affect another branch of labor, and that's the fishing industry.

I don't know if you know exactly what you're saying. I mean, I reprospect that's in a lot he's He's an awesome advocate for his organization. I've seen him over the years, you know, grow into a really, really great leader. I don't think I would kind of sell him on that, you know. I mean, I share some of the same

So you have no option to say to him, hey, look, maybe this might be a career change for some of your guys. That there's nothing that you can say to him to even soften the impact of what this will do. I mean, this will have a very I assume you would admit this will have a huge impact on the industry that he represents.

It's going to have impact, whether it's huge or small. I know I couldn't.

I couldn't.

I can't tell you there. I know it didn't work very hard on a building a state of Maine to push the area that any commercial project could be outside of lm A one, which is a lobster management area where a majority of fishermen work in the state of Maine, not all of them. But I would never intend to convents Dustin otherwise about his own industry.

Enough, okay, that's an honest answer, Dustin, I'll turn the table on you and give you a chance to address Grant again. You're both people who have some disparate labor concerns. At this point, you're obviously concerned about your membership your industry.

Sorry, I dropped off again there for a minute, wonderful service in Maine. Could you just repeat that really quickly.

I'll try. I didn't realize you had dropped off. Okay, you heard what Grant said to you that pretty much there was not much he could say, and he represented it that he respected your position. I get all of that, and also said that he's representing certain members of people who will benefit workers who will benefit from the construction of of offshore wind projects. Conversely, your group of supporters, your membership is going to be adversely impacted. I think

Yeah, so there's there's a lot there. But you know, I will say you probably didn't expect that Grant and I would know each other, but we have been on opposite side of this issue for a few years, but have been very cordial with one another and respectful of

What percentage of your membership would be so adversely impacted by this that they would lose their livelihoods?

Uh, I would have to say, you know that there's there's less people out there, so maybe twenty five percent.

So if you have a membership of nine hundred people, twenty five percent of that is about two hundred and twenty five jobs, two hundred twenty five livelihoods. Which cannot be minimized, but it doesn't destroy the fishing industry, is what I'm hearing you say. Am I misreading you?

With the thing is that we just don't know. We don't know what the environmental harms will be. I mean, in order for these operations to exist in offshore waters, they need to have cooling stations, They need to have a lot of different things, which cooling stations, active heat exchanges for the cables, and they will dump millions of gallons of hot water back into the Gulf of Maine day after day after day. And all of these types of things are what we have raised concerns about, right

Okay, fair enough, Grant, Let me let me have you if you could address those concerns. Those are some legitimate concerns that Dustin just raised. How How has have those addressed been addressed by offshore wind in other parts of the country. I assume the same issues would occur.

I think we're in a fledgling kind of industry right now, and the only offshore wind projects are in the northeast currently right now, the Urmans themselves are air cooled, so less of a concern there. I think that the major concern would be around any type of substation at sea, possibly you know, cooling. For those not super on the technical aspect, says I'm not an engineer, but yeah, well okay, so.

Yeah, and great, let me.

I would say, you know, when these things go off shore, yeah, you know there. I mean I would be concerned about, you know, something being in the water for any period of time, you know, to gross things. It creates ecosystems. And with these uh arrays being so far offshore, different adverse weather, and you know, large fished populations in a new ecosystem could could raise a lever of a level of danger for the people who work the waters. That would be a concern.

I would have. Okay, am, I to understand you, you correctly, granted you said that there's no offshore wind farms or turbines or whatever operationally anywhere in the country that we can we can draw history from, not off California off more temperate climbings.

No, sorry, there's not in there's not in California, And there's Block Island Sound and they're fags six mega ones, so they're smaller than the ones that they're doing now for Vineyard with no sense station. So you know, Vineyard one is really the first commercial and then Commonwealth is or Revolution is next one of the two I can't remember, but yeah, these are the very first ones to get going, and they were the fixed modefile. We won't see floating.

Okay. And then so, so you said that Vineyard one is the is the company that that I was trying to get at earlier tonight? Is that is that the company that's that's that's negotiating this with the legislature in in Maine or wherever else or with the federal government? Is it is the company called Vineyard one.

Uh, well, it's Vineyard one, and Vineyard one is the fleece area they recently, I think Vineyard two they came in the try to stay solicitation with Connecticut where island?

Okay, So so that's not the un company that that's the name of the geographic area.

So Vineyard one was one day with Vineyard Wind and they are co developing it. I think it's aving Grid was in there with Copenhagen Investment Partners and they split that first project and then Vineyard One became its own entity, I believe.

Okay, So now we're now we're getting down to who owns Vineyard.

One Vineyard Wind after Wind developers.

Okay? Is it again? The connection is not great? Are you saying Vineyard one of Vineyard Wind? If you could just spell it so I he can hear it? Correct win win Okay, who's the primary owner of Vineyard Wind? Is it a corporation? Is an LLC? I can handle it? Is the private individuals, it's a it's a corporation.

Uh, it's a little tricky if I can just go. I mean, I'm not fully you know there. But so basically bo lease is an area, but they pay for the lease area and then they put their turbans, will say hey to construct inside of the lease area. And then it's it's for the state of Maine. The legislature directs the utility to precious power off them for a certain amount of years. So I'm a thirty year lease to sell power to rape painters.

Get that? No, I get that. But again, the question that I think you're ducking on me, and I hope that you're not ducky intentionally. Is there has to be an individual and or corporation which which is probably privately held. These companies are not publicly traded, correct.

Oh jeezus, I imagine some of them are in you know, like Vineyard, I don't think is publicly traded.

But so you can you can't gear the name of you can't give me the name of one big investor.

No as a developer.

But some corporations are publicly traded, publicly owned. Others are privately owned, Okay, And people who own private corporations of this magnitude will stand to make an immense amount of money, much more money than all of the workers combined. Gentlemen, Gonna take quick break and if if someone out there wants to ask a question that I haven't asked, feel free six one seven two five six one seven nine. We'll be back right after this.

Now back to Dan ray Mine from the Window World night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.

During the break, my guest uh remaining with us, Dustin Delano, the New England Fisherman Stewardship Association. He's concerned about the liveliheerds of Button nine hundred fishermen off the coast of fisherman families off the coast of Maine and grant Provo with the New England for offshore wind coalition. Vineyard one is jointly owned by two companies, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners and Iberdrola,

Wells. Actually, the industry is a fledgeling right now. There are American companies that are learning and they're American developers. There's Americans working in Europe on offshore wind projects. For Dominion. It's not Dominion, I'm sorry, it's for Demi. It was like one of these international merchant marine companies. I basically got, you know, for the Dominion project their developer now and they've purchased some lease areas from other people. They have

All right, okay, well again, I thank you for your your candor. And it's a difficult situation for the first in Maine so let me give a final comment to Dustin. Dustin, make the case as best you can that the area that your fishermen conduct their business in needs to be protected. And I don't know if you've gotten any support. I understand that there was a period of time where Donald Trump stopped some of this activity while he was president

I mean, I think if we go directly to the issue, a lot of us are familiar with you know, uh uh Donald Trump's podcast with Joe Rogan where he said that he would put a stop top for wind development. And so I think there are a lot of fishermen that have put a lot of hope in that, and you know, we we hope that those promises will be

Don't mind, you got any quick here, because I'm running out of time very quickly.

The Gulf of Maine, these areas in the Gulf of Maine, these leases went for fifty dollars an acre fifty dollars an acre for the ocean that we make a living from. One fish could be more than fifty dollars one haul of it, and that area went for fifty bucks.

All right, gentlemen, Dustin Delano, thank you, Grant Provost, thank you. This is a tough set of circumstances, very important, competing interests. I tried to get two people who could have addressed it tonight. They both did very well representing their point of view, and I thank them for being gentlemanly and being constructive and advocates for their constituencies. Gentlemen, thank you