It's night Side with Dan Ray on w b Z, Boston's news radio. Thanks very much, Nicole. As we head into this a Thursday night, my name is Dan Ray. Just try to look out and see if I can see the northern lights And no, I didn't see them at all. Just dark, just dark where I am, that's for sure. My name's Dan Ray, host of Nightside, heard every weeknight right here in WBZ from eight until ten o'clock, eight until midnight. Excuse me, eight until midnight only if
it were eight until ten o'clock. No, only kidding. Dan and Rob are back in the control room double teaming with producers tonight, which always makes life interesting most of the time easier, but makes it always interesting. We have a couple of big topics we'll deal with later on tonight. I'm going to talk about mass ballot question number five that proposes giving tipped workers here in Massachusetts state minimum wage.
It's a little more complicated than that, but we're gonna be talking with Steve Clark, the president and CEO of the Massachusetts Restaurant Association, and then we're gonna help all of you overcome the fear of public speaking, gloss of phobia I had never heard of the word before. Gloss of phobia is one of the most common fears of phobia's and it effects an estimated seventy five percent of people.
And we'll have a very special author and transformational speaking coach with us who we've had on before, Linda Ugolo. So we've got an interesting night coming up. We start off with a very interesting guest and a very interesting topic. The Bruins are underway tonight. A couple of weeks from now, the Celtics will be underway, and of course they have the additional opportunity to defend Banner eighteen and maybe look
for Banner nineteen. And there's a new book out the Boston Globe, Story of the Celtics nineteen forty six to President, the inside stories and claimed reporting of the NBA's banner franchise. No doubt about that. It is the NBA's banner franchise. And with us, I'm delighted to have Chad Finn, a Boston Globe reporter. He's the editor of this book. This book, I believe is actually out Tuesday, this past Tuesday. It's out an available Chad, Welcome to Night's at How are.
You I'm good, Dan. Yeah, it came out Tuesday, and I've had to get over my fear of public speaking with a couple of book events here these first couple of nights.
I don't imagine you have a fear of public speaking. I don't believe that. So where are the book about a little bit? Yeah, we're the book events.
I had one in plain Villa, Unlikely Story, which is fantastic, and then one up and conquered me. I'm sure it gets in those bookstore. So we've got a few more lined up, a few in Boston here coming up to taking those days.
So this is, this goes, this goes all the way back to nineteen forty six, as the as people who do some math will recognize. Pretty soon in a couple of years from now, the Celtics will be celebrating or maybe even sort of that year number eighty. What a great accomplishment over the these years. Look, it's one of the storied franchises in for Montreal Canadians, the New York Yankees, and the Boston Celtics. And I think those are the
top three, although not necessarily in that order. Tell us about the variety of stories that date back all the way to the nineteen forties.
Yeah, I'm with you. I think that is the top three, just iconic franchises. We did a book like this for the Red Sox in twenty twenty three, and they came around in nineteen oh one, so we had to dig back even deeper. But maybe not a lot of people know this about the Globe, but the Globe was around forty five years before the Red Sox even started, so it was a pretty long history of covering all of
these teams from the very very beginning. It was a little bit easier to put together a Celtics book just because it's fairly contemporary, going back to nineteen forty six. It's all not eighty years yet. It's stuff people are still pretty well aware of. So it was it was fun to discover things I didn't know, but also revisit a lot of things we do now.
Okay, now you probably know a lot about the Celtics, because again I know that you're a big sports guy. Tell me one story maybe that surprised you. That's in the book. Because if you don't know the story, I'll bet you ninety five percent in my audience doesn't know the story.
Yeah, one that really got me was Red Auerback was, of course, the architect of the Celtics and genius for decades until Rich Petino came along and then ninety seven and kind of booted him to the side.
It's team president's not coming through that door. Okay, so we're okay.
Exactly. Not a lot of Rick Patino in the book. But Red didn't want bub Hoosy back in the early nineteen fifties, whoso's the star at Holy Cross and phenomenal college player. But Red thought he was too small and that he wouldn't hold up in the NBA. And he called him a local yocul and said, what would I do with that guy? I'm trying to put together winning
basketball team. The Celtics ended up with him kind of, I guess their will, almost in a dispersal draft, and he turned out to be the Coup's greatest point guard in early in being history. So you got to be lucky too, I guess that's so I.
Read was a better coach than maybe a director of player personnel. I got to tell you my one Rick Patino story. I actually lived in the same time as Patino for a while, and I coached his little boy. I don't know how many little boys he had, but one of his little boys in T ball, which of course is a pretty low stress athletic situation, and it was in the springtime, as you would expect me and Patino stood in the outfield for every game. He must have driven the kid to the game, stood in the
outfield every game on his phone. Never got off his phone, never came in and said hello to the kids, never came over and said hey, thanks very much for coaching or anything. I just thought that was a very weird. Yeah, And as a result, I know there are a lot of other stories about Rick Patinos, some of which we can't talk about here on WBC if you know what I'm talking about, like some of those restaurant stories.
Oh yeah, I.
Just thought it was very weird.
But yeah, I think that fits the irro against the reputation that he had. He was probably on his phone making a lot of bad traits because that's what he did when he was there.
Yeah. Well yeah, So so look, you have some great writers. Everybody knows, Bob Ryan, Jackie mcmonllind Lee Montfield, Dan Shaughnessy, back to Holmes, Gary Washburn, Adam Himmel's back some of the there are there some of the older writers who maybe are not around to appreciate this book, but who were writing in the sixties and fifties. Did they have beat writers not in the forties and fifties. Did they have beat writers back then?
Assigned to it appeared to be Yeah, beat writer. A guy named Jack Barry, who also covered the Red Sox and was a really well regarded, well liked person in the Boston sports community, covered the Celtics early.
You said, Jack Barry a r R Jack.
Barry, Yeah, b A R R.
Y remember reading him?
Yeah, his bylines on a lot of the early Bill Russell stories. Another writer I thought was really fantastic, not so much the early days, but later on in the Bill Russell dynasty in the sixties Bob Sles, who went on to be a sports edit at the Herald, but familiar. Yeah, yeah, he had a really nice writing style, a little bit more modern maybe than some of the writers who came before him on that beat.
Did you have at least one story in there about Johnny most I.
Hope there is one story in there about Johnny most A profiled pretty early on. We had a really hard time finding a photo of Johnny mose Young. We couldn't find one. I think he might have been born at fifty years old.
Yes, yeah, oh that's a great story and of itself. Yeah, not the story when he when he lit his pants on fire up in the in the press box.
No, no, no, no, none of that. That's a that's a favorite of the Boston sports media to tell among themselves. For sure.
Well, that old, that old press box at the Garden. I don't know if you have had a chance. That you're much younger than I am. I'm sure never had a chance to sit up there. But yep, it was a great cat bird seat, that's for sure for hockey.
And hang over the ice on the court there, Yeah, fantastic view. I don't know how safe it felt, but.
No it didn't. That absolutely didn't.
So so the book is called The Boston Globe Story of the Boston The Boston Globe Story of the Celtics, Okay, and available right now from the Celtics nineteen forty six to President, the inside Stories and aclaim reporter of the NBA's ban of franchise, that's a great title.
It is the NBA's ban of franchise. Despite what the Laker fans will say, I can remember at least I think at least one or two of those Laker flags were one I believe in many Minneapolis, if I'm not.
Mistaken, Yes, at least a couple.
Yeah. And so therefore all of our eighteen were in Boston, and that's important. This is accounting for great uh, you know, holiday gift, Christmas gift. If you're going to someone's home for Thanksgiving, instead of a bottle of wine, bring this book and you'll you people gather around the book, it'll be you'll be the hit of the party. Chad Finn, enjoy your stuff in the Globe all the time. And I enjoyed a chance to catch up with your hair and exchange a couple of funny stories. I really enjoy.
Appreciate you having.
Dan always great talking here.
Absolutely, we'll talk again anytime. Thanks Chad Finn. Boston Globe. The new book, The Boston Globe Story of the Celtics nineteen four to President. The Inside Story is in acclaim reporting of the NBA's batter franchise. All right, we're gonna take a quick break here. When we come back, we're going to talk about a very interesting story with John Lennehan. He's the CEO of Zoo New England and Boston Zoogoers will be able to recycle cell phones to help protect gorillas.
I'm interested as to how that story is gonna work out. We'll be back on Nightside right after this.
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window.
World night Side Studios.
On w b Z, the news Radio. Well, it's not often that I get to talk with a personal friend here on Nightside during the eight o'clock hour, but John Lennihan, the CEO of Zoo New England, is a great personal friend. John. Welcome to my program. Obviously you always welcome us to the zoo. So now the tables are a little turn How are you tonight.
Hi, Dan, It's a pleasure to be with you.
So I've seen this story here that you're asking people to donate their cell phone or cell phone to the to help gorillas at the Zoo New England. I didn't realize that gorillas actually could use cell phones. Only kidding, John, and I knew that that in that that new Gorilla uh Den whatever habitat, which is spectacular for anyone who wants to visit the zoo. You can't miss it. It is the most unbelievable, uh experience that I have ever had. I mean, you literally are standing a foot and a
half away from gorillas. They're looking at you, You're looking at them. They're safe and you're safe.
Us and actually you're entertaining them.
Yes, yeah, yeah, go ahead.
I was just gonna say, dan, uh that that really this cell phone collection program is about saving and helping gorillas in the wild, particularly in the Congo.
So it's a.
Great program that allows everybody to become conservationists in a very direct sense.
So what's the connection with the cell phones? The cell phones then flown over there and made available to.
Be happy to explain it. It's really that the cell phones contain some really rare and valuable minerals that help the electronics to work, and the primary source of them is actually in the gorilla habitat, and so by recycling them, you are helping to save gorillas in the wild because this mining that takes place is extremely destructive to the to the rainforest, but particularly the gorilla populations that live there.
Interesting. Interesting, So you said this is in specifically in the Congo.
That's correct, Yes, there there are great. There's a there's a particular mineral called coaltan that is mined there. It's mined in in very informal ways, but people move in with their whole family, and not only is the habitat destroyed, but but to feed their families, they are out hunting all the animals in the forest as well. So gorillas are killed and injured both directly and indirectly by the people that go in there to try to feed their families.
But it's it's something where a lot of people get hurt because it's very informal mining without any sort of safety measures. And then this this coal tan is so valuable that the cell phones that get recycled, it gets taken out of them and put into other cell phones.
Now this or a mineral, however you would describe it, I had never heard of it, John. How much of it is in an every cell phone? You said it's cold in like co lt something correct?
Correct? And that is a mineral that helps the electronics to work much more efficiently. So it's used on I think it's the capacitors and it makes the transmission work much more efficiently. And it is key to every cell phone that everybody has, and so by doing this we you know, we've got collection bins that are out there in schools and different organizations as well as at the zoo every day, and people bring in their cell phones
and recycle them. We want people to use their cell phones for as long as possible before they get rid of them. But if they're going to get rid of them, you know, this is a very efficient way to do it. And we get a little bit of money which is invested back into gorilla conservation in the wild. So, you know, the zoo is, you know how deeply committed the zoo is the conservation of wildlife, and this is one way that anybody who has a cell phone can help us do that.
You know what's what's great about the zoo is you see the animals up close, obviously, but you have to think as you do and realize that, look, these these are wonderful creatures. They they're not you know, part of the wildlife just here in Massachusetts or New Ekland or America. That they exist in other parts of the world and they face dangers as powerful as they are. You have people out there who are trying to, you know, just trying to make money off off of wild animals. So
here is an opportunity to really make an impact. Now I don't know how much coldan is at effort cell phone. I assume it's not a heck of a lot, but I assume everything.
No, I don't think it.
It does and it makes a real difference. And you know, there are thousands of devices. We're part of a larger group of zoos and other organizations that are trying to collect these things and recycle them. We work through a company called eco cell that is really committed to conservation of gorillas. And when you protect the gorillas, you're you're actually protecting all the other wildlife out there. And literally
tens of thousands of devices are collected each year. Last year, you know, it was almost eighty thousand different devices that could have cold tan extracted from them and recycled. So it's a it's a really big effort, and yet it's easy. It's it's you know, any organism, any school can take
one of our collection bins and collect phones. The main program takes place from February first to September first, but we have a receptacle at the zoo that's there every day and we collect them year round, but it's something that you know, people can really make a difference for
gorillas and other wildlife. As you know, we have a lot of conservation work we're doing locally, and people who are visiting the zoo can just bring their phone with them, their old phone and drop it in the bin and it's very easy, and they're helping us to make a real difference here.
And I assume that they're concerned about privacy issues, they can take the SIM card out or whatever like that.
That's exactly right that we want them to do that before they bring them, and you know we can take them out as well.
My last question, which is I always ask questions I honestly don't know the answer to. I had never heard of this mineral before. And if you know the answer, great. How long has this mineral been involved? I mean, cell phones now have been around what thirty years, I'm guessing something like that in their most rudimentary form. How long have we known that this mineral which was in cell phones was such an important echo element that had to
be protected in the natural habitat? How long has this campaign.
Been Honestly, I cannot answer that we've been doing this recycling for about the last six years in twenty nineteen. But I don't know the answer to how long in the cell phone.
I just always I always ask probably one too many questions, but that's what I'm trying to do, and people don't realize we don't. We don't practice these interviews. These are all live and they're spontaneous. John is always what's new with the zoo, And I think people I saw zoo lights are back up.
Yeah, Boston lights at Franklin Park Zoo is people.
So I pardon for that full pot, but I think of them as zool lights. Go ahead, John, I'm sorry.
Well, we do the zoo lights that'll be coming up shortly at Stone Zoo. That's more of a traditional holiday festivity, but Boston Lights has till November three to get out there and see it. But we also have a new baby zebra that was born not too long ago. And as you know, Dan, all the animals in the zoo, other than a few rescues, are captive born multiple generation, and this new baby zebra is joining another zebra fold
that we had born in April. And so we've got a lot of activity going on at the zoo and a lot of excitement and just tons of people who are coming out with this beautiful weather we've had, and both day and night to see the animals and to see the lights at night.
Oh that's great. John Lenhan, Zoo, New England, not only the Franklin Park Zoo but the zoo up in Stoneham Stoneam Zoo, two great facilities. It's worth a trip to both. Absolutely. Thank you so much.
And anybody who wants who would like a recycling ben can contact us through our website and we are excited to have you as a partner in this program.
Sounds great. John Lennahan, CEO, Zoo New England. Thank you, John. I'll say to every bank you Dan all righty pleasure by all right, wee come back. We're going to talk about it more serious. Well it's not a serious issue, but it's a more personal issue for a lot of people, and that is what's called Sober October and the Sober Curious movement. Going to talk with doctor George Coop, director
of the National Institute of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism. Coming back on Nightside right after the News at the bottom of the hour.
You're on Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ News. Radio.
Well, as we leave the summer season and we move into the fall, and pretty much we move into the party time of the year. We're inside and we're enjoying each other's company at Halloween parties and Thanksgiving and Christmas holidays, on New Year's Jewish Jewish holidays oftentimes some of us might on occasion over and vibe with us is doctor
George Coop. He is the director of the National Institute of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism and he's going to talk about sober October and what's called now the sober Curious movement. Doctor Coop, Welcome to Night's Side. Sober October. Well, that rhymes, so I don't know if it's just for the rhyme or not, or if this is the time of year when people do start to take assessment of how much they're drinking and under what circumstances.
Yeah, Hi, thanks for having me, And yes, Sober October is an opportunity to evaluate your relationship with alcohol. So if you stop drinking for an x amount of time, and what I use as a metric, if you start feeling better, you start sleeping better, your relationship with your loved ones is getting better. You're more likely to get to work on time, finish your jobs on time. Then you should pay attention. And your body is trying to tell you something, so you may want to listen to your body.
Okay, So there's another element here, and it's called the sober curious movement. I think I know what that is, what that means, But why don't you explain it. I'm sure you are much more informed about it than I am.
Well, I think it incorporates sober October, dry January, but also the issue of alternates to alcohol in celebratory events. We have now mocktails that are sold at many restaurants. There are dry bars where you can go, and you know, one of the things we advocate is it in any
celebration where beverages containing alcohol are served. It's always a great idea and really a kind thing to do and a healthy thing to do to have non alcohol containing beverages available for anyone that wants them, even someone who wants to make sure they're not drinking too much. But someone who you know, just doesn't want to m vibe because the next day they have a big report to do or a huge job that they got to work on, and they want to be at full steam.
Is there a growing attitude towards alcohol in the country. I mean, we did go through the prohibition era about one hundred years ago and the country turned away from non alcoholic activities. And it's always been a big part of a cell. Sometimes it's too big a part. I'm just wondering, are there any trends that are suggesting the young people are now having second thoughts about a lifestyle that is infused with alcohol. Are there are there any studies of trends that you could tell us about.
Yeah, there seems to be pretty good evidence that Generation Z is more interested in a healthy lifestyle, which means less partaking of alcohol, you know, outside the moderate levels. And you know, I think we have seen for twenty years now a decrease in underage drinking, and you know, that's the good news. The bad news is, to be honest with you, is that women now in the underage group and also twenty one to twenty six year old group are actually drinking more than men for the first
time in history. And that's been going on now for three to five years. So there's a whole bunch of shifting trends. We also have a much los to increase in drinking and the elder popular population individuals over sixty five, And that's probably a cohort effect, but there's so many of them because of you know, the baby boomers, that we're seeing large increase in drinking in more aged population. So you know, there's a multiple things going on at
the same time. But I think that the general trend with young people is we want a healthier lifestyle and we want to you know moderate.
What is causing young women, young women particularly to to im buy more than their male counterparts.
I mean, yeah, they're even been drinking more more than males. Now I suspect it. You know, it's a whole series of issues, mostly cultural that women are a major part of the workforce. Now they do what men do, so they're celebrating with men there. You know, when the group goes out to drink, they go out to drink with them. That was not the case for many years and and I and I suspected that that's that's part of it.
The negative side of all this, though, is that women are more susceptible to the deleterious effects of alcohol, so they tend to have you know, more likely to get the pathology associated with alcohol, with liver disease, more likely to have you know, you know, depression and anxiety, which can be exacerbated by excessive drinking, more likely in some cases to advance through the stages toward an alcohol use
disorder faster than men. So all of these things, you know, they end up with more hospitalizations and they get less treatment than men. So there's there's a whole series of you know, risk cost difference between men and women that makes the increase in drinking and women particularly problematic.
So let me ask you a question for those in the audience right now who are listening and say, well, you know, I do I have an occasional this or an occasional that, and maybe have a couple of these occasional things. What is the standard that your organization feels is a safe level? Or is there a safe level at which people can use but not abuse liquor alcohol be or y? Is there is there any sort.
Of Yeah, So we tend to go with the cd the not the CDC, the the Department of Agricultures. Okay, Now, it's the Department of Agriculture that sets the dietary guidelines, and so the dietary guidelines are two drinks a day for men and one drink a day for women. No more than you know, fourteen a week for men, no more than seven for women. I mean, these are guidelines. Okay, they're not.
No, I totally understand that. But I don't want people who are listening, if they're doing a lot more, not to be aware of those guidelines. And if there are people who are below those guidelines, I don't want people to think, well, you know, I need to be able to drink more. Look, if that's what it is, that's what it is.
Yeah, those are the US Department of Agriculture guidelines. But I think I should mention that basically, the risk with alcohol goes up with the more you drink, and they're just some people who shouldn't drink if you're pregnant, if you're thinking about getting pregnant, if you already have compromise
liver function. You know, the elderly who are taking lots of medications that are sedative drugs that you know, sleeping pills or anti anxiety pills, or even opioids for pain, all of those mixed with alcohol in a bad way.
That's a tough that's a bad That is definitely a bad mix, Doctor Coop. I appreciate you taking the time. How can folks get more information on this? There must be a website you could direct this too.
Yeah, it's very simple. If you just type in an I A A A, you'll on the first or second line. You'll come to our website and there's lots of really cool information there. There's a box on the front tells you all the stats I've been going through.
Good. Well, that's it. Yeah, a lot of people are driving right at this hour of the night, and so they can check them out tomorrow, later this evening or over the weekend again. The National Institute of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism H five letters NI AAA or NI triple A would be another quick way to remember. Thank you very much, doctor George Koop, Thank you, sir.
Thank you, Dan, Thank you very much.
You're very welcome. We come back on and talk about another serious issue, and that's World of Mental Health Day. I guess it is. Today. We're gonna be talking with an author, doctor Helen mckibbon coming back. She's an author and a therapist. Me back on Nightside. Now back to Dan Ray Live from the Window, World Night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio. Well, today is World Mental Health Day.
I was not aware that it's World Mental Health Day, but this tells me it is, uh and I'm about to interview doctor Helen mckibbon, who's an author of a book called Drop Making Great Decisions. And I also believe doctor McKinnon that maybe folks can start to figure out how they know if they're okay? Is there actually something called an okay scale? This article would suggest that exists. I was unaware of that.
Whether you're okay or not is very much dependent on what I call a feeling disease in art society that affects depression, anxiety, and substance abuse. And that scale, if you will, is dependent on if you emerge from into childhood, from a childhood into adulthood with self trust and trusting your thoughts, feelings and ideas people read you is very
solid and that they can't knock you off balance. You're okay, You're stable if, however, in your gears of development, you don't get enough reinforcement for listening to that feeling part of you, that thought or idea. You emerge into adulthood reading other people for what do you should feel, what you should say, and what you should do instead of yourself? And that is not okay. People can smell it. People use it against you, particularly at work or in applying poor jobs.
Okay, So I just listened to that explanation, and it sounds to me when we reduce that explanation to its or that what you're saying is it's better to be yourself than to try to be someone you're not.
Absolutely okay, tell us why that's important.
Let me use the example of an individual who's emerged into adulthood not listening to themselves. They go for a job interview, and the person reads that's interviewing them reads that they need accolades from them or they're dependent on their point of view. The interview or sees the person flipping into reading and trying to please the interviewer, and that person who's interviewing them goes, ah, I've got their number.
I can get them to do whatever I want. I can use them, I can break their boundaries, I can call them day or not. I can use them to do whatever the work I want us. They get into the job with not listening to themselves and self doubt and the employees around them start coming to them and saying, hey, can you do this work for me? I want to leave early, or start bullying them or gas lighting them, or coming to them for hours talking about personal problems.
It is not okay, as you said earlier, because it's people's read of you that determines if you're going to end up with costly disabilities like that building stress or interaction with other people leading to depression, anxiety, and substance abuse, which is causing our nation mental health lives trillions of dollars.
Okay? Is that condition as you describe it, is that correctable?
Yes? And that is what my book is about. And that's my life's work, Dan, that I created a simple neuroscience method. So the individual who finds themselves in situations where they keep getting employed by the same people and people aren't treating them well as coworkers, they go, what am I doing wrong? Then they come to resources like podcasts or books and say, what am I doing wrong?
My life's work is giving them a simple neurological based method to reverse themselves back to listening to their first feeling, thought or idea and emerging into adulthood by listening to the brain in the way it's already designed to make great decisions, thus have self confidence, and they can't be knocked off balanced.
How is this condition recognized or recognizable by the individual who has lived that way for many, many years. I mean, you know, if you've break your leg, you have a pretty good idea that you're broken your leg, right, But when you're talking about someone's mental health, how did they figure out on their own that they first have a problem.
Growd brains are designed to be pretty pliable until earlier mid twenties, and then the unhappiness or the way we're being treated or the stress that cause starts to build. And by the mid to late twenties we are starting to experience anxiety or depression or substance abuse, eating disorders, panic disorders, and we go, what is wrong with me? I'm a nice person, I'm a hard worker. How come people are treating me this way? How can I keep getting these same kind of bosses who try to use
me or walk all over me. That's the recognition that they finally get as they move into their late twenties thirties. That's when they reach out for help and go, what am I doing wrong?
Okay. Now, your book is entitled Drop Making Great Decisions by doctor Helen mckibbon. Is this available? Has it just come out? Has it been out for a while? Tell us real quickly how easily people can get that book if they would like.
There was launch May fourteenth, twenty twenty four. It is available Amazon, Barnes and Noble. It is available through my website Helen mckibbon dot com, which also gives all of your listeners open view into how to use this method to rewire the brain back to the default of listening to your own thoughts, feelings, and ideas and getting respected by other people, not walked all over in adulthood. That's great website, MCKI you access.
Yes, Doctor Helen McKibben, an author and therapist. The book drop colon Making Great Decisions by doctor Helen mckibbon. Thanks for joining us tonight. Very interesting conversation. I enjoyed it a lot. Thank you so much.
Well, thanks for having me, Dan.
You're welcome. You're very welcome. When we get back, we're going to talk about the Massachusetts questions Massachusetts ballot question number five giving tipped workers the state minimum wage. It's an interesting question. And it's one that people should get enough information on so they can make a decision about it. We'll be talking with Steve Clark, the president and CEO of the Massachusetts Restaurant Association, right after the nine o'clock news