It's Night Side with Dan Ray. I'm Wbzy Constance Video Ori.
Welcome back everybody. Before we start the nine o'clock hour tonight, we have a special ticket giveaway here on night Side. We haven't done this often, but if you happen to be a Tina Turner fan, well there's a big show. The Tina Turner Musical is coming to the Hanover Theater
in Worcester on Friday, October eighteenth at eight pm. So, as I begin this hour talking to my guest, if you'd like to give a shot at this, if you're calling number ten right now to this number special number six, one, seven, nine, three, one, ten thirty, you're gonna win two tickets to see Tina the Tina Turner Musical let the Hanover Theater in Worcester on Friday night, October eighteenth at eight pm. It's an
uplifting comeback story like no other. Tina the Tina Turner Musical is the inspiring journey of a woman who broke barriers and became the Queen of rock and roll. Set to the post pounding soundtrack of her most beloved hits. This is an electrifying sensation. It will send you soaring into the rafters. So Rob, just let them come in. It's going to be caller number ten. Don't have to
spend a lot of time with it. Just tell them caller one, caller two, call a three, call of four, and we'll move to caller number ten as quickly as possible. You may get some busy's here, but just give them the courtesy Rob of telling them to call her three, call of four and we'll get him for calling number ten. Call her ten at six pe seven ninth, three, one, ten, thirty will win two tickets to a great musical, The Tina Turner Musical at the Hintover Theater in Worcester, Friday,
October eighteenth, at eight pm. Rob, when you get a winner, tell me and I'll call. Tell the people that think they can stop calling. All right now, The subject that's sort of the appetizer for this hour, the subject that he end. The subject that he end is the m CAST question. It's BALLID two. It's BALLID Question number two in Massachusetts, which will ask voters whether or not an MCAST passing score should remain a graduation requirement for public
school students throughout the state. The Massachusetts Teachers Association are opposed to this idea, and so they have put a ballid question on which would eliminate not mcast, but would eliminate the graduation requirement. With us to talk about it and explain, I think a question that is a vital importance to the commonwealth, to be very honest with you, is Matt Hills. Matt is the vice chair of the Massachusetts Board of Elementary and Secondary Education. Matt his family
live in Newton. He in a lovely wife, have four children who went through the Newton Public School K through twelve. Matt received a bachelor's degree in economics and politics from Brandeis University and NBA from Harvard Business School. He's former chair of the Newton School Committee. He served in the committee for eight years through twenty eighteen, and he is currently vice chair of the Massachusetts Board of Elementary and
Secondary Education. Matt Hill's welcome to Nights Out. How are you.
I'm great, Dan, Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate you inviting me. And it's not my first time on your show. I was on at least once a number of years ago about some Newton issues. So thanks for having me back.
As we say, and by the way, It's important to point out that you serve on this position. This is not a funded position. You do this out of your concern for public education in Massachusetts, and that's very important for people to realize, to be thank you, to be honest with you, this is an appointed position. You were first appointed, well, you've been appointed twice by Governor Baker, if I'm not mistaken.
Right, like most people on the board, I believe most people on the board. I'm a registered Democrat, and Governor Baker appointed us notwithstanding any party affiliation, So that's correct. I was appointed originally in twenty nineteen and then in the summer of twenty twenty two for a second five year term.
And before we begin, I want to make it clear to my audience that we had hoped to turn this program tonight, at least the hour that we're going to spend with you, into a conversation or a discussion. We invited Max Page, who is the president I believe, of the mass Teachers Association, to join us, but he declined, and I just wanted to make a there. We actually invited them to designate someone else. So let's by the way, Rob,
I assume you got a winner there. On the Tina Turner tickets, right, Okay, so you can stop calling folks of the Tena Turner tickets. That's what's important about that. So congratulations. Maybe I get that name from you during the break so I can give them a congratulations. Now, let's talk just a little bit of history here before we go to break, and then we will take phone
calls from interested individuals. Mcass was part of education reform in the mid nineteen nineties when Republicans and Democrats felt that there had to be some standards in the public school systems, in every public school system throughout the Cormwealth of Massachusetts. Explain to us if you could briefly how that legislation came to be and how the system that parents today are very well you came into in your creation.
So the very short answer to a very long story is the legislation was just a great example, as you said in nineteen ninety three, of bipartisan cooperation and excellent
policy that came out of that bipartisan cooperation. Bill Weld was governor, I believe Tom Birmingham was President of the Senate at the time, and it's origins, I'd love to say it was all good intentions, but its origins were lawsuits, and the essence of the lawsuits were the Commonwealth has a constitutional responsibility, given the words in the Massachusetts Constitution, to fix the unequal educational arrangements that we have with
three hundred plus district having three hundred plus different ways
of funding, and three hundred plus standards. Out of that game was often referred to as the Grand Bargain, the Massachusetts Educational Reform Act, which in a nutshell, provided significant amounts of additional state funding billions and billions of dollars today in addition to local funding in return for certain standards voluntarily being adopted by districts, not all districts to adopt them, and some way for the state to assess
whether districts are meeting their obligation to all students, not just to the best performing students, to all students to meet certain standards.
Just to make sure people understand that because some of our listeners have kids in schools in school systems, others don't. There are some tests that are given to students in some basic courses in the third grade, uh and in the eighth grade, and in the tenth grade, and in
the third grade in eighth grade. Those tests, as I understand that, and please correct me if I'm wrong, are intended to uh measure the strengths and weaknesses of the kids in certain in certain subjects, and for the teachers then to have an opportunity to help the kids, uh the students that need some help, whether it's in English or math, both in the third grade and then in
the eighth grade. And that there are test scores and all of that, but there's no uh, there's no consequence of good grades or bad grades in the third grade or eighth grade. That's just part of the process that that's going on. And those tests in the third and eighth grade are not the issue in this ballot question, but talk about the importance of those tests because they're not going away no matter what the ballot question siderect.
So, yes, that's correct. School districts have their own assessments of their students. The one opportunity, the only opportunity that the state has to assess the performance of districts and students is the MCAST MASSACHUSETTSS Comprehensive Assessment System. I think that's what MCAST stands for. They are given third through eighth grade, so third, fourth, fourth, fifth, seventh, sixth, seventh grade, tenth grade, and there's state law and federal law that
requires it. None of that goes away if this referendum would, unfortunately pass, the referendum would do away with the single opportunity that the state has to ensure minimum standards across districts are being met for all students that are ready to graduate from high school and to ensure some consistency. That's all we're talking about here. It's a tenth grade
m CAST assessment. It's based on tenth grade educational standards, and in the absence of this test, there is no other opportunity for the state to ensure minimum standards or some consistency across districts.
Matt, I got a pause for a commercial break. But when we get back, what I want to talk about what happens if when the students take the test in the tenth grade. And I thought that these tests only were given into third and eighth grade. So you've educated me already that all of this the testing is three through eight, not just third and eighth.
Correct, correct, the graduation requirement is only tenth grade.
Though yes, I understand that, No I did. I thought but okay, so the only thing that is at risk here is the graduation requirement. We'll talk about that. We'll talk about the success rate of students, the number of tests that students have, the number of opportunities they have. There are certain students obviously who have you know, some have maybe their anxiety. We'll talk about all of that. They try to help kids achieve at a very minimal
level this test. But the Teachers' Union, as I understand it, is leading the charge to eliminate this test and in effect, in my opinion, return to what we used to call social promotion, where it doesn't matter how prepared you are, whatever your age is, you get promoted, and then eventually the system kind of kicks you out at the end
of your senior year and says good luck. We'll be back with my guest, Matt Hills, who is the vice chair of the Massachusetts Board of Elementary and Secondary Education. We'll get to some phone calls if you want to join us right away. Six one, seven, two, five, four ten thirty six one seven, nine three one ten thirty Back with Matt Hills talking about the MCAST graduation requirement, A ballid question that all of us who are going
to vote. It's ballid question number two, when we will explain to you kind of the complexity of this because what might seem like a yes vote should be a no vote. Inconversely, what you might think is a no vote as a yes vote, because it is all the way the question is phrased. We'll be back on night Side right after this.
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Well, I guess this Matt Hills. Matt is the vice chair of the Massachusetts Board of Elementary and Secondary Education, and he is here to support mcast not only the testing that goes on during the elementary and junior high school years and the assistance and the instruction the teachers are supposed to give students who are having difficulty with one or more subjects, but he also is a supporter of the testing. Now, Matt, these tests, some would say
their high stakes test. I think that's what the Teachers Union are saying. What percentage of students in Massachusetts do not successfully complete these tests? My understanding it is a very low percentage, that's right.
So this is a great place to start. So if I could just explain kind of the facts and fiction about the test and why it's so important to keep it. I mean, this is, as I said before, the sole only opportunity the state has to ensure minimum graduation requirements in some consistency. If this referendum passes, every district sets its own standards. It is not repeal and replace, as
some people call it. It is repeal and there's a prohibition in the question on any other statewide graduation requirement. So this throws away a graduation requirement that's been in place for decades. It would cause harm to the quality
of our public education. It's particularly unfair and unjust to the most vulnerable students because, as you have already pointed out, Dan, the whole purpose of AMCASS is to focus the effort of districts on the students who need to help the most, and not just push people along or push students off to the side. So the mythology around this question is striking. I've been involved in local political issues for almost twenty five years, and this one stands out. So let me
just go through some very quick points. Number one, the scores on the tenth grade graduation test actually are very predictive of future life outcomes that are the very reason we value a good education system, future income and or the likelihood of en rolling in a two or four year college. We want to prepare our students to launch into the workforce or for further education. If you hear this test is nothing more than testing your ability to take a test, that's false. This is predictive of what
we value in education. Secondly to your question, one percent of the students, approximately seven hundred in the last pre pandemic year, did not graduate solely because they didn't pass the tenth grade M test. It's just not true that thousands and thousands of students are not passed. There are students who don't pass, but also don't mean local requirements that wouldn't They wouldn't get a graduation diploma even if mcast went away.
One fos for a second here if I can mat, I want to since we don't have anyone for the teachers union here, I want to make sure it's a little fair. So so you have seven hundred kids out of I guess it's about sixty seven seventy thousand seniors who are graduating every year. How many shots do these kids have at this exam. Is it one and done?
Next point, that's your your your feet. You're feeding into.
Uh because I want to I want to get to calls to man, So let's just feed.
I'm where I'm gonna sort of wrap this up shortly. Third, most students, almost ninety three percent pass on their very first attempt, which is almost always in grade ten, okay, And almost all students pass on their second or third attempt, which is grade eleven. There are five attempts you have while you're in high school to pass the test, and in addition, there's other ways to be deemed to have met the requirement there.
What about kids who have any We'll get to those of the What about kids who have anxiety or they are disliked that they have some impediment to take it? Is there any consideration of those kids?
So yes, And not only are there considerations for those kids, there's a significant number of accommodations for any special need student on an IEP. I mean, there's a forty four page book filled with accommodations. But the but the exceptions go further than that because in addition to the five attempts you have to pass, there's a lower score you could earn and with some additional help from the district,
be deemed to have passed. And there's appeals process for special needs students and for what you described as kind of the students with anxiety, you know, sort of decent grades but not good test takers.
And at the bottom of the hour, Matt, so I got to put you on pause for a second, I got to take the news. At the bottom of the hour, we get back. We will finish the reason that all the information we have and then here phone, I'll phone calls. Don't understand, but I got to stay on course with the news and all of that sort of stuff on the radio show. Here I do. We'll take a quick
break back. But I guess, Matt Hills, who is the vice chair of the Massachusetts Board of Elementary and Secondary Education, a poll, which we will be talking about next hour, shows that most people are not convinced that this this graduation requirement should stay based upon a poll we're going to be talking next home with Dave Paleologus, Suffolk University polster. But I won't. But there's been a lot of advertising done by the teachers Union. They have bombarded local television.
We're going to talk about that as well, and if you'd like to join the conversation six one, seven, two, five, four, ten, thirty six, one, seven, nine, three, one tenth. They would try to get called two calls as quickly as we can back right after the news. Now at nine thirty two.
Night Side with Dan Ray ONBZ, Boston's news radio.
We're talking with Matt Hills, the device chair of the Massachusetts Board of Elementary and Secondary Education. We're talking about ballot question number two, which if you want to get rid of about this on this graduation requirement, this MCAST graduation requirement, you're going to vote yes. If you'd like to keep it,
you vote no. We'll explain that a little bit. But Matt, I want to come back to this situation and let me sort of if you played Devil's advocate for just one second with you here, okay, despite.
It, And I also just want to wrap up the point we were talking about if I have a moment.
To do that, So yeah, you got to do it quickly for me because I want to get the phone calls to go ahead.
I just want to be clear on the question you asked. There's not one attempt you got to take the test. There's five in high school. You can also take it after twelfth grade indefinitely. There's accommodations for special needs students. There's also appeals processes, So if you have a student with anxiety, who's you know, bad test taker, but good students. There's appeals processes also for special needs students who don't pass.
About seventy five percent of appeals get approved. So if you hear you have one chance to take the test and that's it, that's just a total falsehood. You have many chances, are opportunities.
That is why matt I phrased the question that way, to give you that opportunity.
No, I understand, and they're fine.
Now let me go from the point of view please devil's advocate for a second. What do you say to a parent who has a child who is having trouble is not a great test taker and they want to vote on this. My argument is that this is sort of the reality of life, that there will be tests people will have to take every day in there, either in college or wherever they might go to school, or or in life if they open a business that they
work in a business. And this sounds to me like the Teachers' Union is looking to basically make sure everybody gets the same trophy. It's no longer you know, kindergarten soccer where everybody gets a trophy. It's something you don't want to devalue the value of the diploma by giving a diploma and socially basically getting back to social promotion promoting everyone. How far off am I on that as an argument.
So.
I can only speculate about what's truly motivating.
The That's not my question. My question is is this an extension of what used to be called you know, everyone gets yeah, And so if it doesn't matter how you do in high school, everybody gets it. Everybody gets a graduate, gets a diploma.
Whether that's the motivation, that will be a key and negative outcome of this, and that will be the shame of it. So social promotion, you know, when it comes to schools is not just you know, as simple as everybody gets a trophy, so everybody's a winner and everyone feels happy. What we are doing as a state is shirking our responsibility to give our students what they need to move on after grade twelve in the workforce or for further education. If we are not doing something to
ensure that those minimum standards are met. That's what the constitutional violation would have been that led to the nineteen ninety three and Reform Act. That's what MCAST is a critical part of remedying over the last thirty years, the ability of the state to ensure that the focus is put where it's needed. And that's why educational achievement has gone up. It's straightened though, but it went up and now it's flattened out. We need to try other things.
You don't throw out the CAST that's enabling us to see that. You have to try other policies that work, and that's what, for quite a number of years narrowed
some of the achievement gaps in the state. So with respect to a parent who's seeing their students struggle with testing, I would simply say this the only way for the state to ensure this is not an IQ test, this is not an FAT This is testing whether the educational standards are being met, and the only way for the state to ensure this is through these tests and through
the graduation requirement. If we don't have this graduation requirement, we will be one of three states in the entire country with no comprehensive statewide requirements.
I got to go to phone calls. Okay, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I think you've made some of those points repeatedly, and that's why I want to go to phone calls. Let me go first to Lawrence in West Roxbury. Lawrence, you're a night side with Matt Hills, the vice chair of the Massachusetts Board of Elementary and Secondary Education.
Go ahead, Lawrence, mister Hills, rather than on you the path, why when you use the Stanford of metropolitanic teament tests, which have you know, fifty years of data, or make comparison? I'll think your answer optophone.
Okay, I'm not familiar with that particular test, Matt. I don't know that you necessarily are either. But if you are correct, then feel free to defend the MCAST test because it's been around here for a while and you said that it was that it is predictive.
M test gives us the information we need, so I can't compare it to another test. I will only say it is it enables us to see whether those minimum standards are met.
Yeah, and that is also not the issue here. The issue is whether we're going to blow up this test and get rid of it as a graduation requirement. That's the question played. It simple. It's not that we will replace this test with either a B or C. So that's, you know, an interesting suggestion by Lawrence, but it doesn't quite I assume that the teachers Union would be opposed to any of these tests.
Well, the question, if it passes, would not allow any other There's no it would disallow any other state requirements. So that's not an option.
Okay, we're going to take a quick break. I got one more couple of commercial messages to get through. If you're on the line, stay there. I'm going to try to get everybody in. If you support what Matt is saying, I'm sure he'd love to hear from him. If you have a question, he'd love to take the question. We'll be back on Nightside talking about question two of the Massachusetts ballot. Getting rid of a yes vote gets rid
of the graduation requirement of passing an MCAST test. Those students would not get a diploma, they would get a stratificate. Back on Nightside right after this.
Now back to Dan Way the Window World Life Sight Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Folks, we have full lines your question A comment from Matt Hills that appreciate no speeches are necessary. I'd like to get everyone in who has taken the time to call. Some have waited longer than Owthers. Let me go first to Jerry and Melrose. Jerry, Matt Hills got to be quick for me. Jerry, go right ahead.
Thank you all try. I'm opposed to question two. I represent students in special meetings around the state, and districts don't do the job without accountability. They find ways of just ignoring what students need. The grades three to eight mcast they're supposed to give an indicator of whether a
student is on track to pass the grade ten. But I was just at a school committe meeting tonight with thirty thirty five forty percent of students not meeting expectations, and the assistant superintendent of Teaching and Learning said, oh, we're going to stay with the status quo. The only thing that gets districts to actually try to teach students is that tenth grade competency determination, so that they actually
realize they have to do the job. Politically, they know if they don't do the job for the students, they will fail. And in fact, the tenth grade MCAST is really the eighth grade learning standards. That was a political decision made back in the early two thousands because you know, the state would have revolted if there was twenty five percent of students not graduating, so they made the graduation requirement very low. But I'm absolutely opposed to this. Districts
don't do the job without the accountability of students. Would that would be failing in the political you know implications of that.
Thank you, Jerry Well said concise to the point six thinc Thank you very much. Sure, thank you. Okay, got to keep rolling here, going to go next to I lean and how I lean. You got to be quick for me, Please go right ahead.
Okay. I just want to say that I grew up in New York State, where we took Regent's exam and if you didn't have, you didn't have. If you if you didn't want to, you didn't have to have a Regents diploma, you could get what's called a school diploma instead. But I thought the Regent's exams were excellent. I wanted to go to college in New York City, and when I got there, I had I had the same standard of education as students from New York City. And I
still have some of the Regent's review books. I don't know if you have mcast review books, but I still have some for algebra and geometry and so forth, and they're excellent summaries of things that we learned in school.
So I assumed that you would probably want to oppose this elimination of the graduation requirement, and you'll be voting no. One question too.
Absolutely, yes, thank you very much.
Let's keep rolling here, trying to get everyone in. Is the name Trev like a short Revere.
That's right, Go right ahead, Trev.
You're on with Matt Hills, Go right ahead, Thank you.
I'm I I believe I'm with Matt, definitely. I'm an I'm a no vote, and I urge everyone listening to you tonight to vote know and not eliminate the m CAST. I feel that just the very first statement you said, well, you invited the union rep. Teachers Union Rep. Or was it the president, I'm not sure who was.
The president of the teachers Union, Max Pe. We specifically invited him, and we and and Matt was willing to accommodate him any night.
Yeah, go ahead, Yeah, your lot, your your second to last guests on the air. It just came on and said it more eloquently than me. But the union rep not wanting to come in and and and talk to you and face the music is equivalent to what Liz Warren and and uh, you know, Hillary clink and never wanted to answer any questions from from you know, from the common folk because they believe.
That again, as they say, I want to make you understand that he, Matt Page is the president of the teachers Union. Correct me if I'm wrong, Matt, He's much more.
Than just the president of the Math Teachers Association, right right.
Him not wanting to come in to answer questions for the public is disgusting. He's gonna let their pony ads that they spend millions of dollars on try to convince people to vote his way so they can basically eliminate teachers' unions. They don't they don't want to have, they don't want to be held accountable for anything anymore. They rule kids.
Let me off that ask a quick question to Matt. Let's assume they're successful and the teachers Union successfully eliminates the graduation requirement Uh, the the the m cast you know, three through eight will stay, but I'll bet you that will come up as an issue in the future, not a question.
So the mcast tests will stay, the requirement goes away, and how shall I politely say, we can speculate about what happens next. There's federal and state law. But whether there's law, whether that law changes, the policy is good policy for our students. We need to adopt the right policy, not just because we're required to, but because it's the right.
Thing to do. Thank you very much you call. I want to get two more in appreciate the Caul trip. Thank you, well said, well said. Let me go next to Bob and Boston. Bob you were next night, Zack, go right.
Ahead, all right. First of all, for the elimination of a graduation requirement for MCST.
So you would be a yes vote. You'd be a yes vote on one, yes vote, yeah, Bob, I'm just repeating, you would be a yes vote on question two. Then correct, yes, yes, Okay.
And picking up on the person who spoke about the regions regions in New York, and there's also our regions somewhere to California. They've been around forever. They it's one hundred years almost of the year that the Regents hasn't been diescablaged. That's ten decades, not two decades. And they hundred people taking tests by giving and regents scholarship. I
just checked. The current region scholarship for New York is between one hundred I'm sorry, between one thousand and five thousand dollars a year, which will help out.
You know, well, that's not Look, I appreciate that information, But tell us why you are in favor of getting rid of this modest education requirement and tell us in a few short words, what's the advantage of getting Does just everyone in your room get a trophy? He does not. He's not even listening to my question.
In mindset that that you don't get awarded for working hard at school and regents give their awards for working hard at school.
Yeah, you know what again, and all the information in the regions, that's not what we're talking about tonight. But I wish you'd listen to my question because your answer might have been interesting. Thank you very much. Let me go to John in New Hampshire. Very frustrating in my job is when people don't want to they want to make a speech and not listen to a question.
Go ahead, John, Okay, I'll make it.
Bring you got it, just really got about thirty seconds left.
Go ahead, Okay.
Eliminating eliminating the mcast is an Amtrak move. Early in the days of Amtrak, the trains were not on time and the unionized train crews came under criticism. So there was a solution. They slowed down the schedule. Guess what trains were on time, and the unions were free of criticism.
Okay, so I'm in New Hampshire's anyway. Thank you very much for the analogy. I'll digest that in the next few minutes. Thank you very much, John. Okay, Matt, I'm sure you figured out. But I was still thinking about Bob and all the information about the recent scholarships. I wish we had better questions. But you want folks to vote no on question two. And right now the polls, which we will find out next hour, are going against that, and they're going in favor of getting rid of this mcast.
How come there's been no effort to match the teachers' unions. How much of the teachers unions spent on TV ads in the last month.
I don't know what they've spent. They've obviously started their ad campaign. There is a strong No campaign that has a media blitz that should be coming. Our own internal polls and this is the Globe poll that came out as a high quality poll internal.
We have thirty seconds go ahead.
Our internal polls are consistent with the Massing poll that came out last week which showed Yes barely above fifty percent with no movement for the last few months, So we have time. We have four weeks before and the No campaign needs to make the case.
Like how would you How can folks get in touch with you if they would like to get in touch with you and either help you or get information. Is there a website?
There?
There is a website for the No campaign, and the simple way to do it is just go to for no on Question Too. I think it's protect our kids, but if you google it you'll find it. You can get through to me by emailing me. You could find my email, or you can go directly to the No campaign. The governor, the Speaker of the House, the Senate President are all opposed to this, as are the current and all former secretaries of Education of both parties all.
Right, out of time. As much as I'd love to keep the hour going, I got to get to the news. Thanks for your time tonight, Thanks for the information. I think it was an effective hour. Let's see what happens. Thanks Matt.
We'll talk so thanks Dan.
When we come back, we're going to talk to poster Extraordinary David Paleologus Dave Paleologus, poster for, amongst other Suffolk University, about this and other races in Massachusetts.