It's Night Side with Dan Ray. I'm WBSY, Boston's Radio.
Well, welcome back everyone, Thanks very much, Carol, and we moved to the second hour tonight, nine o'clock and we're going to talk with Boston City Councilor Ed Flynn. For a long time council of Flynn has talking about some ethics reform at the Boston City Council. I'm suggesting there should be ethics reform throughout Boston City Hall. Ed Flynn, welcome back to Nightside. How are you.
I'm doing well, Dan, It's great to be with you. It's great to be with your listening audience as well.
Well.
I really appreciate the way you have conducted yourself over over your career and of course over your when your dad was mayor. This we've got some we've had some problems. This is the second city councilor that has really, I think disgraced the council. And we're talking about Boston City Councilor Tania Fernandez Anderson. It was interesting The Globe today, I think described her in their front page article as
an embattled counselor. And I just think that that's an interesting, uh choice of adjective to describe the situation that she finds herself in. I mean she she apparently has agreed, has has agreed to plead guilty. She's not been sentenced yet, but she could be facing up to a year and a day in jail under the under the agreement. That should not reflect on other members of the City Council, but it does. Would you agree?
And Dan, I definitely agree. It should not reflect on us, but it certainly does. And I was at three events last night and people coming up to me and asking me about the case, and they were saying, well, Ed, what is the city Council going to do about it? You know, we don't want the status quo? Ed, what changes are you making? How are you going to improve
the ethics on the city council. This is a poor reflection on the city of Boston, the residents of Boston, Dan so ys to answer you directly, It's a reflection on every residence of the City of Boston, whether we like it or not. It is a reflection on us, especially elected officials as well.
So what can be done? When you think about ethics, you sort of draw the line between ethics and a criminal act and Obviously the councilor, Tanya Fernandez Anderson was indicted and now she has pled guilty, apparently to this sort of payoff system where she gave she gave a raise, as I understand the charge to a relative, but with the understanding that part of that thirteen thousand dollars raise that she gave to the relative would be kicked back.
My question is why are city councilors employing relatives.
Well, they're not allowed to dan by law. She hired her a relative anyway, and maybe the relative didn't have the same last name. I don't know exactly what the circumstance was. It's going back several years. But by law, you're not able to hire your relative.
How did they define relative? In other words, obviously a member of your immediate family as a relative. What about if I'm your brother in law and I need a job. Am I a relative as your brother in law?
I believe so. I believe that would disqualify you from working for a city councilor who is a member of the family, whether it's a brother in law or sister in law. But I think that would preclude you from working in a city council's office.
So how how is that then at this point without the ethics reform that I guess you're looking for, how is that monitored? Or who's in charge? I mean you see someone in their office and there they have a different last name. Uh, and are they supposed to prove it? Who has the burden of proof? Is the burden of proof on the the counselor that that they have not had any relatives on their staff? How does how does that work? I mean, how does that happen? I guess is what I'm saying.
Well, it's not. It's not necessarily monitored as as strictly as as it could be. And you know when an elected official does. When the elected official is sworn in, they signed documents saying that they would not hire relatives, and they understand what the rules are. And if you have a different last name, you know, it can be challenging to prove otherwise.
No, I've never been an elected official, and god knows the people of Massachusetts, I'm sure would be appalled at the possibility of me being an elected official in Massachusetts. But I would think from a point of view of an elected official, it would be good to have an ethical rule because as long as you had that ethical rule, you can say to some cousin who says, jeez, i'm kind of hitting on tough times here, I wouldn't mind.
They're doing a little work for you if you could find me a spot on your staff.
Right.
It gives the elected official not only the obligation, but it kind of gives them the ability to say to that relative, gee, you know I was up to me. But it's a different story. But I'm precluded by by I assume it's as simple it's a city council regulation that does that, or is that a City of Boston regulation.
That the city council regulation? A city councilor cannot hire someone from their immediate family and I do know that's sister in law or brother in law.
Okay, So how long has that been on the books? Is if that's on the books, it should be enforced. Was that I assume there must have been a time when that wasn't on the books.
Yeah, it's been on the books for a while, and it is. It has been enforced in the past under various scenarios. But each city councilor knows clearly that that's against the rule, and you cannot do that.
Okay, let's do this. We'll take a break. I want to come back and talk about it. And I also want to talk this particular counselor. And I don't want to dance on anyone's grave. But she's been very controversial even today at the at city Hall. I watched some of the reporting on the local news to and she doesn't seem at all ashamed of this. She was very overtly arrogant to some of the reporters. She picked which
reporters she would talk to. She hasn't actually announced she's announced an intention to resign, but she hasn't given a date by which she will resigned. Do you when I get back, I want to ask you about that. And again, I'm not looking to, you know, kick someone when they're down. That's not my style. But I was kind of appalled by the demeanor that she appeared to strike. I was watching some of the newscast tonight and it seemed to
me inconsistent with with her situation, with her circumstance. If you get my drift, we'll come back with Boston City Councilor Ed Flynn, And I'd also like to hear from residents not only of Boston, but in the surrounding area. I don't think it's too much to ask elected officials
that they don't put their own relatives on the payroll. Uh. And it's also not too much to ask elected officials, UH if they do ever elective or anyone in the payroll, don't give them a raise and then expect to get a kickback in cash in a bathroom, which is what Fernandez Anderson I believe has has played guilty to. That's that was the primary allegation for which he was indicted.
We'll talk with Ed Flynn and you if you'd like six one seven, two, five, four ten thirty six one seven, nine thirty And if you are a Boston resident, you know Ed Flynn's done a good job for the city of Boston. Wouldn't be a bad idea to give us a call and uh and give him a pat on the back, because frankly, we need more Ed Flynn's in the Boston City Council. In my humble opinion, more people like Ed Flynn, longtime Boston residents who are there for
the right reason. Back on night said, right after.
This, it's Night Side Boston's news radio.
We're talking with Boston City Councilor Ed Flynn, and we've we've, we've you know, uh, the I was watching. I don't know if you saw any of her demeanor today the city councilor who is now you know facing apparently is going to plead guilty, has signed an agreement to plead guilty, and it's facing actual jail time for you know, what you would say is a fairly craven exercise of not only authority over a subordinate but also, you know, something that a politician should not be doing. I mean, she
should have, she should not. She does not necessarily need to know all the rules and regulations of the Boston City councilor the What she did was wrong in my opinion, and she walked around there today like she almost had something to be proud of. Did you did you watch any of that today play out outside of the chamber or no. I don't want to put you on the spot here, but I just want to find out if what I saw on television you may have seen yourself.
Dan, I didn't see any of it. I didn't see any of any of it play out. I didn't see the television stations. I did hear about it, but I didn't witness it myself.
Okay, last last question before we get to start to get the phone calls. Do you know when she's going to resign? Is she just going to hang in there as long as she can until the court date.
No, I think she's going to resign in the immediate future. I would I would expect that she would resign in the next seven days, although she hasn't committed.
Twenty things is I think that in order to have a special election in that district, if she can hang on, I think to like May seventh or something like that, then there would be no special election, and even when she vacates the seat, the people in that district would not have representation. You're I'm sure you're aware of that loophole in the law. They would not have a special election that close to an election because it would be a lot of money to have somebody serve for two
or three months. That's apparently the underlying reason for that.
Yeah, that's accurate, Dan. So I think she would have to resign by mid mid May for there to be a special election, and then so there would be literally two elections in that short period of time. So it'd be basically like July and August and then September and November.
So what other reforms ethics reforms are you proposing and what sort of reaction are you getting from it? Colleagues, give us some examples that people will understand that, in your opinion, need to be adopted by the city council.
Well, Dan, several months ago, I proposed having a standalone ethics committee like the State House does. The mass House of Representatives has a ethics committee. I would want one for the Boston City Council. I propose this, and my colleagues voted it down for various reasons. But I think it's time for us to revisit that. And maybe it would not be just city council is on the ethics
committee itself. Maybe it might be people throughout the city, maybe some type of college professors or ethics professors or business people. But I do think we need some type of committee that would hold city councilors accountable. That was voted down, but I'm I'm going forward with it again. Maybe a different type of opportunity for us to do that.
How close was the vote when when it came? What was the vote? Do you remember?
No?
I don't, but I don't believe it was close. My colleagues advocated against it. They didn't think it was necessary for various reasons. In one of the reasons was they didn't want city councilors holding other city councilors, you know, responsible or accountable.
But you would you just addressed that if you could, they could put together a committee. I have, you know, a couple of former judges. There are retired judges who who are always you know, involved in sort of these things, mediations, arbitration. They could be easy to put together a five member committee which would which would not meet very often, and I suspect they would probably do it at for for no cost, and that a lot of the judges would
be willing to give back some time. I suspect a couple of judges, a couple of lawyers or whatever, maybe a citizen representative. I think that there's a lot of ways to do that so that none of the councilors are put in the position where they have to stand in judgment or sit in judgment of their colleagues.
Yeah, right, I agree.
I think that's a great, a great avenue to pursue. And that's that's something I would like to pursue. And the other the other couple of options besides having an ethics committee, which I desperately think we need to, but i'd also like city councilors in the mayor, but focused on the city councilors to release their state in federal taxes. I think I think that's important and maybe over the over the past five years. And we also dan have to to file a form a financial interest form Statement
of financial interest in that form is yearly. It goes to the city clerk and we signed it under the pains and penalties of perjury. But I think we also we also should be sending that document as well to the mass State Ethics Committee, not just to the city clerk. And I think that form should be public.
It is.
It is public now if you if you go into the city clerk in person and request it. But I do think any state or reason why you want it. But I do think that type of form should be should be public inaccessible as well.
In this day and age of you know, the Internet and UH and computers and AI. No reason why because at that point obviously the you know, they probably can play all sorts of games well you've got to file a Freedom of the Nation request and then you have to pay ten dollars a page, and they that's that's many ways in which people get frustrated when they're trying to figure out what's going on. I agree with you. It should. It just should be made public and there
for everyone, for all the world to say. Simple, simple as that. And I want to take a break, and I want to hear what people think. The lines are full at six one, seven, two, five, four, ten thirty. We got Jack, Bob and Ron there and I got a couple of lines at six one, seven, nine three, one, ten thirty. We'll be back on night side right after the news at the bottom of the era. My guess is Boston City Councilor Ed Flynn. His dad was mayor of this city for about ten years from nineteen eighty
three to on nineteen ninety three. Uh did a great job as mayor. Just you know, I thought one of the series of great mayors in Boston. UH and UH. And Ed is following in his footsteps. As you probably know, Ed served in the US Navy for over twenty years, and then he's following in the footsteps of his father as a Boston City councilor family that gives a lot of genuine service, genuine service, not self service, but genuine
service to residents in Boston. We'll be back on Nightside right after this.
It's Nightside with Dan Ray on Boston's news radio.
My guess Boston City council Ed Flynn, councilor. Let's get some phone calls, see what people think about this. This is this is a stunning fall from grace for a Boston City councilor who actually came here from another part of the world. And I don't know, maybe maybe somehow Someway didn't understand what the standards of in this country are. But boy, she disgraced herself, and she disgraced the city council and disgrace the city of Boston. Let me go next. First,
Jack is a Newton Hey, Jack, welcome you. Next on night Side, you're on with Boston City councilor Ed Flynn.
Hi, how do you do, Jack Porter or pleasure to talk to you. I think I have.
On this.
Yeah, thank you. I handle on this as a sociologist, uh mental health stress. I know that people in the Cape Verde and community. I've talked to psychologists there. They have a lot of stress. In one case where you know sister guys in childbirth and cavebrity. Another one, a brother you know dies in an accident. If you told me that, you know, death and is very prominent. And
that's one stress. The other is if you're a woman, if you're a woman of color, if you're a single woman of color, there's going to be you know, more stress on you. So you need to have mental health. Part of your bill that you want to introduce is mental health. It's not an excuse, though you're right, you can't excuse.
I don't know.
I think Professor Dershwitz wrote this book called the excuse defense. That's because you have this doesn't mean you can get away with breaking the law. You still have to be punished. But I think we have to understand distresses that Dominican uh death for American women and capability and women I'm talking about, I mean Wilkinson member, she also built the law term that.
Was the state senator who stuff who stuff pictures of dead presidents in her in her bra on camera. If I'm not mistaken, she was under a lot of stress.
Do you think that that that's a factor here.
You're asking me or ed Flynn. Yeah, go ahead, go ahead.
Counsel Jack, I don't know. I don't want to dismiss that outright. I just don't know the answer to it. I do know what what what I do. What I know about is, you know, she she entered the guilty play today and she she accepted or she's going to accept responsibility. I think there will be some type of commitment to federal prison. But I could not speak about mental health related issues at all. I'm sorry. I don't have a I really don't have an answer or an opinion on that.
You know, Jack, I think you I think you're painting with a broad brush. I really do. I think that there's a lot of people in different groups, different groups, men, women, older folks. There are folks who are more your age and my age who are are seeing the sunset of their lives approaching, and some of them, you know, are facing financial problems. I mean, a lot of people have stress. It doesn't justify doing you're familiar with what this city
councilor has admitted to doing. I assume you're familiar with the case. I'm not gonna yeah, yeah, right, that's what I'm saying, I mean, this is this is not someone who understress blew up and yelled inappropriate words during a city council hearing. This is someone who engaged in what would be considered to be a pretty craven act. I mean, giving money to a raised to a relative who shouldn't be on the payroll.
See how angry she is. You can see that it's just not normal behavior. Cal lend her actions not normal.
The woman that that that that crashed the car. Yeah, well again, I don't know. I think that there were plenty of people of Cape Verdian extraction and and and all sorts of groups of minority and majority who conduct themselves very well. I mean, we could turn around and we could we could say, look at the stress that Harvey Weinstein was under. The Hollywood producer.
Maybe he was.
Maybe, you know, Jack, you can't. You can't use stress for every person who breaks the wall.
I know that I agree with Hill. They should bear. And I'm saying it's a factor to understand what is happening. You know, stress on baseball players, the stress on people who are in politics, one of the factors is that they are women and a minority. It doesn't mean I'm.
Feeling stress right now, Jack is a talk show host. Because they think you're getting angry at me, Jack, I'm feeling stress. I need to get to a counselist. Oh yeah, okay, Jack, I appreciate that point of view. Very thoughtful. As always, we you and I might see it a little differently, But thank you for your call. Have a good mine. Let's keep thank you, Jack, Let's keep rolling. He're going to go to Bob and Walpole. Bob, you got any stress you'd like to let us know about.
Yeah, look, work, what's the maximum sentence that she can reserve?
I don't know what the maximum sentence is. I will tell you that apparently the US Attorney's Office is apparently going to recommend a year and a day in custody and the three years of supervised probation upon release. You got to turn that radio down, Barb. We got a lot of noise in the background. I don't know if that's going to cause your stress.
Okay, I shut off the radio. But here's my thing. She knew exactly what she was doing. Why do they always get off almost scott free? Why don't they get the maximum sentence? She knew on purpose.
Yeah.
Well, well, first of all, it's part of a plean a plea negotiation. Uh. And the the U. S. Attorney's Office probably takes into consideration a lot of factors. The fact that she did this while in a public in elected public office, that works against her, frankly, because the argument is that she would have betrayed the trust not only of all the City of Boston residents, but also
the people who elected her. Think she was elected twice to the council, maybe three times, Ed, you would know that better than she's been elected twice or three.
Times, I believe to him twice twice.
Okay, go ahead, Bob. I interrupted you to go ahead and made your act. Go ahead, Bob.
But you know, listen, she know what she was doing. I've been around a long time on some of you, and you know, these elected officials are supposed to take care of the people, and they don't, and they go out and they try to rob people.
Well rule, not all of them, not all of them, particularly Ed Flynn, who comes from a family that has really given a lot of service to you know, Ray Flynn ran a very clean mayor's office for ten years at a top time in the city. Okay, so let's not paint with that broadbrush. But go ahead, go ahead, your point.
No, my point is, why should she get off without a maximum sentence when she knew she was doing wrong. You can't say that she didn't know what she was doing. No, no, no.
I would assume the lawyer sat with the prosecutor and said, look, would you consider a plea, or maybe she was offered a plea, and maybe her lawyer counselor then said, look, they kind of have you dead to write, and you go to trial, You're going to get convicted, You're going to spend more time, and therefore this is probably the best deal you can get under the circumstances. Let's deal with it. Do with it. You're forty, I think she's forty six years of age, learn from it, come back
and pick up the rest of your life. I mean, some lawyers will say that to their clients. Because you go through a trial, it's more expensive, the lawyer is going to get paid. And if all of a sudden you get a conviction, and if the case, if the evidence is overwhelming, now you might be looking at five to ten years.
Yeah.
I think I think you're right. Dan, and and the the federal government. And when I was in the Probation Depontment, we did guidelines, sentencing guidelines, and you know, the guideline range could be you know, one year to ten years. But when you do plead guilty, you do get a better deal. And in one of the factors is they do consider if you have a previous criminal background. That plays into it. And also if you accept responsibility by entering a guilty plea, that's also factored in in your
in your favor as well. So there's there's a lot of there's a lot of pluses in terms of lead and guilty, especially if you've done something something wrong and you know you've done something wrong, you're going to be found guilty, so you might as well take the best deal you can that. That's that's what I'm what, That's what I'm thinking.
Ye well, oh tell me what what's your opinion, Dan?
Well, my opinion is exactly what what ed Ed said. And again I've you know, been involved in legal situations, uh, not only as a journalist, but as a lawyer. And your client comes to you, you have an obligation to the client. You can't say to the client, let me take this, I'll take it to the Supreme Court, and
we'll win at the Supreme Court and raise money. And you have to be honest, and you have to uh, you ethically, have to sit across from your client and sometimes deliver them to the bad news that this case is not very winnable again, depending they may have audio tapes,
they may have videotapes. They they you know, in the case of Diane Wilkinson, they had pictures of her stuffing money inside her bra I mean, you know, do you remember when they had the abscam case back in the early nineteen eighties and they had several members of Congress. They set up a sting and these guys walked into the hotel room and they accepted the money, and oh they was. They were glad, handing and shaking hands and
patting each other on the back. They were dealing with undercover agents who you know, the only the only argument you can make in that case is entrapman and that and that wouldn't have worked either. So so on I understand rather, Bob, I understand your frustration. As a citizen. You probably have worked your entire life, done the right things, and now you turn around and you realize that. Hey, you know some some people look at it differently. So
I appreciate your your comments and your observation. I appreciate you call to night Okay.
Thank you for taking my call. You're very good. I listened to you every single life.
Well, Bob, I appreciate you doing that, and I hope you call more off and I really enjoyed the conversation. Thanks. We got Ron and Newton coming up, and Paul and need him. Maybe a little room for you if you want to join us. Back with Boston City councilor Ed Flynn talking about some real substantive and specific ethics reform that the Boston City Council should adopt, in my opinion, and they need to adopt at this point. Back on Nightside after.
This, you're on Night Side with Dan Ray on w Boston's news radio.
All right, we got three calls. We're going to try to get to. Let me go to Ron and Newton. Hey, we're on next on Nightside. You're on with the City Council of Boston City Councilor Ed Flynn Grudhead.
Hi, Dan, thank you very much.
I think I want to thank you for the service the public service that you've given to our country, both you and your dad and the military service. My dad was in the Navy, and so currently my nephew is on an aircraft here somewhere. But thank you for your service. Thank you for saying that I have what could be a very simple question.
I don't know if it's naive or not, but Dan has always encouraged us to ask the question, regardless of how how simple it may seem. I'm paraphrasing, but anyway, it's a part of the reform. I'm wondering. I work as a part of our disaster medical response system, and every year we have to pass an ethics exam as a part of our annual tournament. We have to pass not only that ethics exam, but we also are issued United States government credit cards for which we can only
use for certain purposes. We have to we have to satisfy one hundred percent of the UH of the exam. We have to pass with one hundred percent before we are deployable. So I'm wondering whether I don't know, if it were to help put the ethical matters more in the fourth snag on sprain, if you have to satisfy that standard annually or I'm not sure. It may be a very I'm not sure practical gat question.
It's a great question. Let's see. Let's let's see what ED says.
Go ahead, Ed, Yeah, it's a good question.
We do.
We are required to attend some ethics training annually, but it's nothing like it should be. It should be more, as you say, Ron, I think there should be probably an exam, a more hands on, instructed based approach to it. Interactive with city council is interactive with the person given the training, But just listening to a couple electure for an hour and a half and two hours and signing in, I don't think that covers it. I think it has
to be extensive. And you know, in the military, we had ethics training and you're held to a higher standard. And when you're a city councilor or you're an elected official and you're placed in you're placed in a in a position with authority, you owe it to the public to be ethical, transparent and held accountable. And I don't think we have a system right now that holds elected officials accountable in city government in Boston.
All right, great answer, Ron, I got two more. I want to try to get in here. Okay, buddy, appreciate, Thank you very much, thank you, you're welcome. PAULI got time for you and one more go ahead, Paul, Paul and need him his own with Boston City Councilor Ed Flynn.
Yes, mister Flynn, thank you for your service. You're a good man.
Thanks.
As an outsider looking in, I live in Needham, it appears to me Boston has a strong mayor for a weak council. The city council is a body very seldom questions the mayor on some of her actions, and an example is this. Then I'll get off the air. She went down to Washington testify in front of Congress. In prior to going down there, she spent six hundred and fifty thousand dollars on legal fees in getting coached on
how to testify in front of Congress. Did you or any of your fellow counselors question that type of an expense. She's an attorney. What counseling does she need to get down to testify in front of It's.
A good question. Did you have any authority? Were you knowledgeable of that expenditure? Did seem to be a bit much?
No, we didn't know about it. We didn't know how much it costs until it was reported in the paper. But I think I think you are right that the city council does not hold the mayor accountable. We don't ask tough questions. We're more of a rubbish stamp. And you know, a lot of city councils, it's about the next election. And when you're concerned about the next election, you want to cozy up to the mayor and to the mayor's administration so you'll you'll get re elected the
next term. That's what most of my city city council colleagues believe. That's how they conduct themselves. City councilor Aaron Murphy is not like that. She's very honest woman. She challenges the city on neighborhood services and quality life issues. But most of them just go along to get along, and it hurts the city, it hurts the residents.
I'd love to see a breakdown of that legal bill. And well, well.
Let's uh, I think that's a great question, and uh, maybe maybe we will, maybe a Freedom of Infmation Act. Maybe the Globe of the Herald, more likely the Herald will get a hold of it. That'd be a good one, Paul, I gotta grab one more here. I got a Boston resident want to get in as well. Thank you for ask you great real quickly, Michael, you've called late, but we got about a minute and a half for you. What can you do with it?
Oh, I can do it. I just wondered I have been wondering for several years when she took miss Anderson the oath of office and she refused to put her hand on the Bible or raise her hand, what was theo Didn't that raise a red flag and tell us all there's going to be here? How did that end?
Mister Flynn, Yeah, you are right. The city council in question did not raise her hand or did not did not did not say the oath of office. I believe she went to the city clerk a couple of days Lada. She may or may not have given the oath there as well. I don't know. It's there's add of questions that remained unanswered.
I think she said a style from the from the day that she was elected, or probably even before that, she was going to do things differently. And obviously the one thing that she did very differently was to solicit funds from an aide who was a relative and who in fact she now is admitting she took part of that raise from. So you know she she pushed. She pushed it in a lot of ways, and this is the one that got her in big trouble.
Dan that do I have fifteen seconds?
Shoot?
Go ahead, well, compleat squid. I live in Copley Player, I've been here for thirty six years. The tents went up. You got garbage around the bottom of the fence there. This has been ongoing for will be four years. We've missed tourist seasons. It's on the tourists lists. Couple he squared the library scene at church. What is the underlying problem there? It can't positively take over through years to put some brick, take out some gratch.
They've done, You've done the thirty seconds. You've put it on ed Flynn's radar, and that's a good thing, and I suspect you'll see some action on it. Michael, thank you for your call, Thank you for raising that issue, and I hope that you get a chance to maybe do something for that constituent, even though he may not be a consent of yours. He's still a citizen in Boston and Flint. Thank you so much. Keep us posted. We'd love to come have you come back.
Thank you Dan. It was great to be with Ian. It was great to be with the listening audience tonight as well.
Okay, please say how do your dad and mom. I saw them the other day at the Mary at the Mary Beth, Mary and Brett food pantry and they look great. They thank you all right. Thanks you. I talk to you soon when we come back. We're going to talk about the stock market, and I have a very interesting guest on the other side of the ten o'clock news