Linguistic Programming

notice me sent pie. Kim Kardashian has been doing a lot of Instagram posting recently since having her baby Chicago, and people have been noticing that they're sort of increasingly thirst trappy with what she's been doing, where it's just like something more crazy each time, or more trying to get attention. E people are surmising that she feels insecure about Kylie surpassing her. That's the number one Kardassian and

now also the number one Kardashian mom. So well, actually there's only one number one Kardashian mom, and you know it's Chris Theo is not a Kardashian. It's true, but let's be real. She's the ultimate. She's the Queen. I thought you're gonna say Courtney, but I do love Courtney's Like Courtney is the only one who seems like maybe

Chill and mom Secretly Chill. I feel a little disconnected from things because I can't understand how anybody, especially somebody within her own family, would find Kylie's circumstances and motherhood right now to be in any way enviable. But that's just me. It's sexy to have a baby when you're a billionaire, billionaire babies just to prove you can do it exactly. I mean, you know, I'm trying to be open minded, but she did put a Snapchat filter on the first picture of the baby, and I was like,

this baby is doomed. Don't you say that about all the babies at various points, like didn't we probably say that about Kendall and Kylie? And like the first season of Me Again, Like now, I'm like, that's so like they didn't have a Snapchat filter on their infant photos. That really made me go, huh or a new world now. I saw a story the other day that was about people bringing in Snapchat filter selfies to plastic surgeons. It's apparently really common now and they come out with roses

growing on their forehead. Yes, sparkles and spangles on their weird dilated pupils. Yeah. Yeah, they're like, I want to look at like, make me look like this, dear filter, I want to be a deer. Um. So, Kim Kardashian posted on her Instagram she now has pink hair. That's her new her new uh Instagram stunt is that she got pink hair. And she posted a picture of an anime babe with pink hair, and so this was my inspiration. Yeah, and uh, Emily, I'll defer to you as the expert

um anime podcaster. Yeah, what do you think it means? What do I think it means? Well, I mean I think we discussed this maybe on a group chat that obviously well, I mean, I won't rule out the fact that that Kim enjoys herself some automy on her own, but I feel like, definitely Kanye has made her watch a Kira at some point. That has definitely happened at some point in their relationship. Um, and where she chose to go with her fandom and interest in the medium

from there is uh, you know, anyone's guests. But I do think that right now there is I would be more shocked about Kim embracing on me or even taking style cues from Automy at any other time, but right now I feel like it is. Uh there's a wave right now of celebrities coming out of their otaku closets. But aren't you glad about it? Because at least it's like reclaiming it back from the alt right, who we were concerned had sort of taken over anime avatars. Yes,

they try to take over everything, but they're not taking anime. Yes, I mean I am I am a d percent for that. I'm a hundred percent for Michael B. Jordan's um talking about Naruto UM in an interview. I mean, it's it's it's very it's very endearing. Or are you such a snob that you're like it devalues my Naruto fandom now that you're going to funk about Naruto like, uh, he can have it, But it's it's still very sweet, like and I've I like to like just I mean, it

could be Fraser, you know. I like to imagine beautiful celebrities at home watching Netflix, watching you know, Pokemon or whatever in their free time. That's very that makes me feel like, I, you know, they're one of us. You have a generous spirit. Well, I mean I don't. Yeah, it's hard for me to be snobby about on me because I'm like, you know, I've I've explained this. I used to explain this on the podcast that I used to have it. I'm not like a like expert by

any means. I don't know what that character is that Kim posted and I didn't look it up actually in time for this podcast, which I probably should have done. But uh, you know, it's it's cool, like I I don't know, I'm not mad at it. Uh, And I feel like it's just about growth of the fact that all these shows are so much easier to watch now

than they were like when we were when we were teen. Yeah, so you know, it's accessible and it just couldn like, you know, absorb itself into the culture a little more easily than it could have a while ago. It's just fright and cool. Like well, last week we talked about Phantom Thread, but not in time for the podcast. Molly got a text from her friend illuminating a theory that we all thought was really interesting. So we wanted to just jump back so that we could kind of explore

this theory. So, uh, Phantom of the Theory time UM. Friend of the podcast, Gil Keenan, who is also a director from the San Fernando Valley UM, told me that he had to fandom throwd theory. He would let me in on after I saw the movie. So when I asked him what it was, I will read it. He texted it to me. He said, oh, just that Alma is a camp survivor. Her parents were killed there. She made it to England after the war, and the recent memory of the loss is what makes her so strangely numb,

but also equipped to handle Woodcock and whose gestapo sister. Also, she becomes weirdly animated by the disrespect that the old rich lady shows to the dress. After the press conference scene where the fit press asked the fiance about his family's involvement in his scandal involving Jewish visas, m and I wrote back, Oh, it's the night Porter, which is my answer to everything. It was interesting to kind of. I think Molly dived deep, as did I into the

into finding ways to justify this theory. But I'll let Molly go first. And Emily, I bet you of your own thoughts, but it was it was thought provoking because that the Jewish visas thing really stood out in the movie as being like very specific information that was kind of dropped and then not really revisited. So I think it's stuck out to all of us as being kind

of strange. Yeah. I mean, also if Paul Thomas Anderson wants to call us and be like, you know nothing of my work, like we just give us anything we like to theorize. But you know, I'm also willing to accept that this might not be true at all. But um, Emily, what did you think? Um? Well, I mean, I I

really like the theory. I think I think it would explain I think I would explain her resistance to Reynolds and Cyril if she was forced into the situation, like if she was hired as a maid or something like that. But she's you know, she's drawn to her herself. It's not just a resisting of a thing. It's like she's actually attracted to there. They're just stop at ways. Well to the night Porter comes in. Yeah, well, yeah, so I feel like I don't know, I would I would

need a little more psychological back up there. As far as I said she could stand forever. Yeah, because she has the resilience. Did as the Robert gray Smith did a lot of real research and came back with much information that I don't know if it supports the theory, but there's there's some interest. I kind of went down a rabbit hole and found like some weird some weird threads, if you will. So one thing that I found, um

that was interesting from Nylon. It doesn't address the you know, Holocaust in particular, but it is interesting visa VI that scene. So it The article says one of Woodcock's most important clients is the heiress Barbara Rose. Anderson gives hair is only four scenes in the Phantom Thread, and they're not long in terms of length, but it seems that Barbara Rose is like a message stitched into the fabric of the narrative, and her appearance feels crucial to understanding the

rather obscure meanings of the movie. Oh yes, it does so. Basically though her first name is Barbara, you know, it didn't occur to me that Harris was playing a role based on the Woolworth heiress Barbara Hutton until her second scene. This is all quoted from Nylon by the way where Anderson stages, Barbara Rosa is humiliating press conference announcing her marriage to a noted playboy who is clearly meant to be the infamous Porferrio ruber Rosa. So then there's a

Vanity Fair profile and ruber Rosa. It says um that he was unable to return to his country because he was basically, you know, he would he had been selling Dominican visas to Jews wishing to flee Europe and had been kind of found out. And Barbara Hutton was the poor little rich girl that would you know, for every poor little rich girl movie and book has been based on Um. So she was kind of like a sad sack.

She I think she got married six times or something and at one point was married to a grant Like she was a really kind of bizarre and like sad person who squandered her fortune. Yeah, this is the thing I was talking about last week, but I couldn't remember the names of them. So yeah, there's a lot of further reading on Barbara Hutton and Porfirio Um on the internet to be found. I think several people. I think

there's a piece on Vanity Fair about it. As well. Yes, that was there was a vanity there's a nylon piece in the Vanity Fair piece about Barbara Hutton too. I also found some interesting things about people who were sewing secret messages into needlework while they were in Nazi camps. Um. There was a guy named Alexis Castalli and he was he would add secret messages to the stuff that he was sewing. Um in morse code around you know, some

piece of needlework. He wrote, funk Hitler. And then there was also um the case there were like all of these women who were working under Hedwig Pois, who was the wife of a concentration camp commander, and she had a dressmaking workshop where they would do hoach culture um and kind of like make these gowns for for you know, Nazi events. Um. And there was a book about it that I guess then was adapted into a young adult

novel by a woman named Lucy ad Linton. But had said that there's a I pulled a quote from an article in the Express about this, but it says the clients even came to the concentration camp camp workshops for fittings and consultations, all part of what ad Linton calls the repulsive mock civilization of the Nazi regime. One of the Auschwitz seamstresses, a Slovakian dressmaker named Lulu Gruenberg, could barely control her resentment at the indifference and arrogance of

the women for whom she was making clothes to survive. Okay, that's just super interesting. I went away down the hole on this. That also sounds like like that does sound like made for a novel. Also, I believe that there is a novel based on that. That's fascinating. Someone like

make a movie about that. Yeah, I know somewhere in the article they said they were sewing for their lives, like they were trying to prove their talent and like, you know, worth to be kept around, and all the Nazi things where they made people like do creative stuff to like prove that they should survive, like the musicians. You know. It's that's the scariest. It is the scariest thing. I don't know why, I mean, I do know why.

It's strange that all. I mean, it's it's interesting that you can kind of find these weird, you know, articles that that seemed to relate to the phantoms I mean it's definitely about a certain time, and then you get into like the seamstresses and the hidden messages being sewed into things. But it's it was interesting the passports or the visa line being like this weird clue and you think you're going to follow it and find something concrete, but you but it is a phantom threat. It's merely

a phantom thread. So let's take a night call. And as always, if you want to leave us a night call, you can give us a call at one two four oh four six night that's one two four oh four six night. Or you can email us at Night Call Podcast at gmail dot com. Which other whichever method do you prefer, is a okay with us, and just leave us your questions, theories, comments, just your thoughts and we will will address them on air. So we have a call today about a little movie that I think we've

all seen. Let's see. Hey, this is Charlie in Texas. It is twelve oh five am, true night call hours. I just got out of the screening of Annihilation, which fucking ruled everyone should go see it. Um, But I notice this is like the third time in a row where I've seen a movie and Jennifer Jason Lee randomly popped up and it made the movie a lot better. So I was wondering if there's any actors or act is that you, guys, you rarely pop up in movies

that you never will bring a good time? All right, thanks, So I really appreciate Charlie's p s a to go see Annihilation, a movie that I quite like spoiler alert, But um, I fear that it might be a little too late for it, seeing as I think it's like maybe still in five theaters in the United States by

the time you're hearing this podcast. Um. But yes, Jennifer Jason Lee is in it, and she's very scary and weird in it, and uh, I'm I'm a fan of Jennifer Jason Lee, and I feel like it isn't I feel like she rarely pops up, though I'm usually very aware that Jennifer dationally is going to be a movie

before I see it. I had a spooky experience because I had no idea she was in this movie, and my mind was wandering and I was for some reason thinking about, like, hey, it's so weird that No bom Bach was married to Jennifer Jason Lee and it is now Date's greta girl right And then like as I was thinking it was like, then she appeared on willed Her and I like was so weird it out because I was like, I don't normally just think about Jennifer

ducing Lee. But I was also I was so happy to see her, um, and she really brought me back into the movie. She was fantastic in that. But wait, what what actors are you guys always happy to see um Luise Gusman. Yeah, that's a great one. Um. I kept trying to think of people and I just ended up coming back to everybody in the Paddington movies. Jim Broadbent is a big one for me. Um. I love

a Jim Broadbent cameo slash appearance. You know who used to be one for me or like, I mean he is no longer with us our I p but um, when he appears in kind of if I'm watching an oldie or some you know, kind of b list thing I've never seen before, if Pete postal Weight shows up

in something, I'm always really into that. Oh yeah, well that also leads us into this this Danny Boyle Yes conversation tonight can I say mine because I have too, Sorry, Danny Boyle, affiliated Yes, mine are Martin Maull because he was in an episode of Taxi and he was also in an episode of The Golden Girls, and like, I remember both of them, and then I was I was looking. I was like, oh, you know what's his wikipedia And it's just like full of those things. And then also

Richard Maser, we've ever seen Fernwood Tonight. No, that is the best show in the world. Uh, and kind of what I want night called to be, like what it's like a spinoff of Mary Hartman. Mary Hartman. Oh, yeah, that's all I'll say. Fernwood Tonight, That's what I calls very Friendwood Tonight inspired. Let's talk Annihilation. Let's talk about Annihilation. I wish Martin Maull had been in an He should have. Maybe he was maybe he was double Emily. I'm going

to break your heart right now. Okay, go for it. Test and I did not love Annihilation as much as you did. I think, well, you test actively disliked it. I was more more kind. I think I liked a lot of things about it, and I thought about it a lot afterwards. Um, we also sell it at eleven in the morning. That's the best time to see any movie. I'm a huge fan of watching movies in the morning. Your mind is open, you're not all tired and jaded yet.

So you know, I feel like this was more of a nightcall movie, movie you might want to watch at night. Well yeah, I mean, for sure spoiler alert about the swirling guts and seen in this movie twenty in the morning. But you know, we had meet us appreciate it more. I think it's our guts were still swirling with breakfast, and then we're like, oh, look at look at that. That's when I turned to Tests and I went, I'm in yeah. Um. Test is also not swayed by the

charms of Oscar Isaac like some of us might be. Look, I appreciate his acting. It's purely it's a sexual preference, like right now, oh my god, I know you're not sexually attracted to young al Pacino. He's just not well. I didn't say that specifically, there's just something I guess because I know everyone else feels that way. I'm like, well, let them have him. But I appreciate his acting. Although he didn't do much in Annihilation, it was which was great.

It was a female dominated sci fi movie, which is fantastic. Everybody was really excited before the movie came out because he was only billed as being the husband and I am DV and everybody was like, yes, Oscar Isaac is

the husband. Um, yeah, it was weird how much. I mean, first of all, I'm glad test and I both saw it because there's no way you could possibly explain this movie and the amount of time we have on a podcast to each other and also to the audience, So we should probably decide how what level of spoiler we want to go with it, because I actually, I mean, my favorite aspect of it is the end, and that's the part that I could talk about the most. Well,

that's how we'll get there. So Annihilation is a sci fi uh movie about a team of scientists going to a area you're not supposed to go to, some sort of contaminated area, Area X. I feel like the distinction is sort of weird in the movie. In the book, it's all called Area X. They also call it the Shimmer in the movie, but they also refer to Area X as like maybe a reason that contains the ship shimmer. It's very strange. It's like a weird southern swamp. Yeah,

it's it's supposed to be in Florida somewhere. It's based on a book by Jeff Vandermere. There's three. There's a trilogy of books that's based on the first one. But it's very much meant to just be a self contained movie. I think. Yeah, And it's different. It's very different from the book supposably, Um, but there are some things that are the same. Test and I both brought notes right, can't wait. I it made me want to go home

and watch Tarkovsky's Stalker, which I did. Oh yeah. And then my friend gave me a hard time about watching Stalker on a laptop. I was like, but I was really close to the screw going on. You have a projector at home. Yeah, but I was like, like, I was watching it by myself, like you know, I was. It was great. It wasn't super enjoyable for me. Um. And then I was reading about Soviet sci fi all

night long? Ye, which is the best. Well. Stalker is the only movie that Alex Garland, the director, has owned up to being inspired by because he I think like I think understandably bristles at like the thing of like, what things were you looking for for your movie, because I think especially people who are trying to do like newish sci fi, you want to feel like you're trying to Yeah, it's a it's a tribute slash rip off of Stalker. But that's the one thing he was like, Yeah, Tarkovsky, definitely,

it's a trip off. Um. And yeah, and also Solaris, which is the other Tarkovsky movie which I saw recently. I saw like a beautiful new Stalker. There's also like a new Criterion print of it that's yeah, sucking all so um. But Solaris, which is based on a novel by the Polish writer Lim Standis law. Uh, it's sort of invented the sci fi concept of like the aliens being like instead of being little gray men or tall grays or little green men, they it's like a planet

or like a gas. It's like a consciousness. It's like a consciousness and you like can't communicate with it at all because so for it, Yeah, um, the Solaris is a planet that watches you the state of mind. So yeah, Test and I both really like a lot of the ideas that are in Annihilation. Um. I just felt like the characterization and dialogue was like felt really flat. Yeah, yeah,

I mean I definitely think that it was. It's hard because you kind of place all your hopes on when you see five women who are scientists or I mean, I guess one is an e M T. But I mean they're there are five strong women who are not like being shepherded by a man, or being sent on this mission by a man. In fact, like you know, venturous dr Ventrous, who's Jennifer Jason Lee. She's kind of portrayed like you would. It's a shame that you would normally see men playing these roles, but I felt as

though they could have intellectualized them more. And I was telling Molly that it made me really nostalgic for the original Jurassic Park and Ian Malcolm because I remember reading the book and seeing the movie the explanation of the science and his you know, drive to kind of wrap

his mind around it. Was a lot of screen time was devoted to him kind of unpacking it, and I felt as though that was something that was kind of neglected And I don't know if it is in the book as well, but we're just supposed to accept that, Okay, So d N A is refracted like through a prism, and it's like, but what does that mean? And then you see that it can, you know, you can kind of transfer your DNA via touch that you become contaminated. Your DNA is seeping out all over the place and

mingling with plants and becoming a fungus. And I thought it was interesting, but it seemed like not satisfying to not have at least one of these very accomplished scientists trying to give a more thorough explanation, Like it felt like a blind spot that we were just expected to accept, and it bothered me. Well, the only the only one of them who is a scientist who would be equipped to explain it is Natalie Portman's character is a biologist.

The other ones, there's a physicist, the physicist, yeah, Tessa Thompson, Yeah yeah, And I mean then there's also a psychologist who or I don't know if she's a psychologist or psychiatrist, but I mean, spoiler alert, it's weird that the physicist gets the biology death exactly and Tessa neverre also bothered that Tessa Thompson's character who turns into a plant spoiler spoiler they don't show you that she turned into a kind of off then you never see her again and

it's very creepy and wickermanny. But you're also just like waiting for the shot of money plant and I don't show it, and then I don't know, really wanted to see it also made me want her to play poison Ivy. Yes, well so, so the thing about the book is that they actually have more character flashing out in the movie than they do in the book. They're pretty much like Cipher's. We saw it with a friend who had read the book and he was like, they're even more like Ciphers.

And they don't have names in the book. They're just called well the different positions too. They have like the surveyor the anthropologists. The linguist is one of them. There's no linguist in this one, um, which is because the whole thing that the linguist is interested in is not in the movie, which is one of one of the bigger things that I missed from the movie that's in

the book. But um, but I I kind of bristle against this idea, and this has come up multiple times, and I feel like I haven't had like a forum to talk about it um or like haven't had the time or I don't I don't know, but like I kind of bristle against this idea of like this should be a movie about strong female scientists. I don't think that that's what this movie is about. But it's it's fun to watch. It's fun to think about the portrayal

of five female sciences. It's as so funny. It is like when I was watching it, I never thought about the fact that they were all women, just like regular people, and they're just like, we're going to try something different. The last few exhibitions have been men, and we haven't done with all women yet, so we're just gonna see it goes and it's like cool. Then there was a point where they all came out in the suits and

I was like, oh no, their Ghostbusters. Um, you know, because it's not their fault or it's not this movie's fault. It just stresses me out because I'm like, if this movie fails exactly like A Wrinkle in Time, you know, fails, like are we ever going to get any more female sci fi ever again? Or people going to be like female sci fi doesn't self, let's never sell it. I mean like last, you know, like Annihili or Animil Arrival. It was my favorite movie of that year. Um that

was like a very successful movie. I got nominated for words and stuff and is very much told. That's like a developed I feel like scientist character dealing with something uncanny,

an alien. If you want something that has like that's a little more of a character study as opposed to this, which I feel is much more like It's like it is like those Tarkovsky movies where you don't I don't think you have a gripe about those movies that you wish to like the main dude character that you knew more about him as like a professional you know more about I mean no, but I mean like in the mold of a movie like Aliens or Predator, which was

the things I mainly was thinking about, It's like, how much do you need to develop those characters that you know we're all going to get killed off? Well, I mean I think that I'm guessing Emily that you would agree that the Crosby stills and Nash flashbacks too, that made Test so much helplessly hoping was really rough. I mean that was but you know I was right? No, tell me, Oh, come on, therefore people or the other two people they are three together, they have it's about

cell division. Okay, it's great, but I can't watch a woman crying on a sofa walk. It's against my religion. I won't do it again. I was brought up c S and wait, how can I even pronounce this? Like yes? And sometimes why yeah? I want to say, you know, the best part of this movie reminded me of of Angel's Egg a little bit, And sometimes I was like, I kind of wish this or just an anime, and I wouldn't QUI honestly. I mean, I think some of the design of it is cool that I did was cool.

Doesn't love the aesthetic? No me, I feel the same way. And there was a moment where I had like a false revelation that turned out to not be true, where when they find when you know, the whole end is very cool. It turns into like a Jodorowski movie in a way that is like made it worth seeing for me definitely. Um, And when she's in the like there's like the bone fungus we say that where we haven't really even that much, but you should probably she goes in a hole in a like a lighthouse with bone

a bone fungus, a skeleton fungus that's growing everywhere. That's very scary. And then she gets in there and it's like an hr Geiger a drain pipe. And then she finds Jennifer Jason Lee or like an alien Jennifer Jason Lee. She's like Jennifer Jason Lee is letting the alien presents basically take over her body, or like you, Jennifer Jason Lee goes, oh, no, Mortal Kombat. I mean, it's sort of funny because annihilation is also like a significant word

uttered by that character in the book. But no, I read it makes a lot more sense in the book. But it's one of those things like in The Shining where it's like a vestige of the book that like is creepier because you don't have the context for it, like in The Shining with the bear the bear costume guy oh, and speaking of bears, that was I think the best part of I feel like it's I feel like it's a good litmus test, like to know what's scarier to you, the the green suit at the end

or the bear. Because I think that everybody I have talked to who's seen this movie, it's one thing or the other, like one thing upsets them more. Um. Okay, well okay, so so Jennifer days and he goes into allusion and then she turns into like prismatic rainbow matter. And then what I thought that meant was I thought, oh, you become the shimmer like the shimmers people. Um. And then it was like, no, it's an alien. Well I mean, but I think that's how the alien manifests itself, right,

I guess. But then it's like and then someone comes out in a fetish suit and does like a tangle the dance the modern dance. Good, but it was bad, you know. I mean, that's kind of it was. It was good, but it was bad. We watched it with our friend Brendan whale and who used to do the social media for a fetish were site, and he was like, it's just a z any suit. Well, you guys, I'm willing to I'm willing to fill in a more and more of that scene for you if you're open minded

about it. Don't I I'm supposed that you've written anything that I've written about it on the internet, so I'll be happy to repeat myself here. We both of us and we both test tests like, this isn't a drug movie. I did not think it was a drug Well it was eleven twenty in the morning, but you know, I went in with an open mind and I still didn't feel like it was a drugma, I don't think it's a drug movie. I'm I'm in a drug movie. Well that was in my first piece that I read about it.

But like, I don't think it's a drug movie in that it is about drugs, but I think it's like maybe destined to be the kind of thing that you show somebody at a dorm room at four in the morning, like that kind of movie. Yeah, but you know what, Like then I went home and watched Stalkard. I was like, you know, Stalker is like a more psychedelic movie. Even though there is no rainbow fungus in it. It's like

the it's paste better, it is scarier. Just like this was fine, it was okay, but you know when I realized it was Alex Garland. I also really liked ex Machina, which tests I think to not like again, which is the same actor Oscar is like and interpretive dance to checks on your list. But you know, I did I did really like X Macina. Um. I don't know why I was underwhelmed. Maybe because you built it up and I thought it was gonna be great. Well, I didn't build it up because I would say that I gave.

I would give this if I had to do a star rating, which I never do for movies, but like it would be like a three and a half out of five for me or something. I don't think that it's perfect at all. I think most of the body

of the movie is kind of poorly written. Um, not because of character development, but just because it's just sort of like laying out all these sort of structure and steaks things that feel much more like like skeletal Hollywood structure than then the then I think the movie really is trying to do and I feel like that kind of undersells how kind of cosmic it goes at the end? Can I Can I recommend something that I read about

Annihilation that I thought was a really good take on it. Um. It appeared in Collider and it's I'm Matt Goldberg and he basically is like, this is a movie about cancer, and it obviously cancers a through line, but the way that a cancer spreads and changes, and it doesn't have like an agenda other than the you know, innate biological agenda to self destruct, which is also referenced a lot um. But how how it like mutates and changes. And then he also kind of went into like, oh, they're all women.

The most common form of cancer is breast cancer, like it was an interesting thought to play with. More it starts with them looking at cervical cancer cells at the beginning,

and like, I think that's very intentional. I mean, I think, you know, I think that this movie is also like resonating more for people who have like have you know that with depression or any other kind of self destructive tendencies, because I think that there are people who watch that ending scene and are like it's like, yeah, it's like out there, it's crazy. And then there are people are like, oh my god, Like I I mean, I have like

an extremely emotional reaction to the end. H. I appreciated that it was trying something crazy, But I do think that Alex Garland has sort of like an endings problem, um other than ex Pacino, which I really liked the ending of UM, but you know, I remembered he Sunshine also, which the movie that I really really liked up until a certain point, and I was always like, it's like two thousand one, it's like the acid cosmic horror movie,

and then this is like the ecstasy movie, right. Um. In Sunshine also it ends with like and then there's a guy, a scary guy. And I think for me, just having it be like like a scary like a like a boss, you know, a level boss, instead of just being sort of like, oh, it's a mind fungus and it's not like a human being. The fact that it was like if it had been like tests what we were saying too, if the body had been made of slime, we would have been much more into it.

I mean, I guess we thought we were looking for slime because maybe Emily is like, maybe it's because just like why did Emily want us to see that so badly? I don't understand. Um, But yeah, the part we're like the guy, the guy the suit thing is kind of like grinding on her and trying to become her. Like I thought it was gonna be like, oh percent, I think I just said, it turns it turns into slime

and like takes her, you know. But again, maybe that's just because I was I was thinking for blob horror, see I find it well. I mean, you know you you see that part with the like deers who are

marrying each other. Basically, I think that there's something terribly unsettling, much more than a bunch of slime would be about these sort of auto pile itsels that are just mimicking the body that are you Like, the idea of being in something that feels like a fight but is not a fight because it's just you is like, I feel like a kind of constricting fear around my chest because that sounds like a nightmare. Like that sounds horrible. Well, I initially when watching and I was like, oh, it's

about PTSD because they both served in them. You know, scary had no face. That was the scariest part that very scary images in this movie, including the moving guts. There were like a lot of things that really liked and I appreciated how ambitious it was. Um, I think I also just felt like, oh, I don't want to have to put the pressure on this movie of like will we ever get another like team of female scientists.

That's what I meant when I said that it was you you want so badly for it to be perfect, and I think what you expect from it depends a lot on what the changes that you want to see in the roles that women get to play. We were talking about another movie earlier. I don't want to outtest what I'm going to as she said she wasn't a

fan of Ladybird so much as everyone else was. But she said also she was like, but guys get to make like narcissistic movies about their lives all the time, that like, maybe aren't the greatest movie in the world, So like, I don't want to condemn it, because you know, I liked Ladybird, but it didn't blow me away as much as I wanted it to, and then I had to and then you felt guilty for loving it, Like I wanted to be like my favorite and I thought

the performances were incredible and I was happy that it was there. But I think maybe it's expectations that that I have that are so unreal stick to be met of, like I want Lady Bird to be the best, whereas we bring nothing to go see Paddington two, and then I love Paddington because I have nothing riding on Paddington too.

You know, I feel like having that attitude, especially about anything like created by or featuring women, is like, I don't know a recipe for it is self destructive and and and it's unfair also like yeah, because exactly you don't. You don't come in with that expectation about no, it's

totally unfair. And I also like, I feel like I put this pressure on Natalie Portman all the time too, you know where I'm like, Oh, that's where I differ because I'm like, I feel like, you know, I guess I understand in a cynical way why they wanted Natalie Portman to be this character. It's not like she's not

the character. But I don't think that like trying to sell the movie on her name alone is any kind of strategy, because I feel like people are much more excited right now in general to see Taza Thompson and Gina Rodriguez in a movie that too. I mean, they were like, you know, I think it's also just because she's playing this main character who's a little more of a merry Sue and a little more sort of like

a cipher. And then there was like the part that Tests and I both were like this is the best part was when Gina Rodriguez this is like, oh we got Hella footage, because I was like, she probably i'd lived that, because I don't know that Alex Garland has ever heard Hella. But it just felt like, you know, it's like, oh, a real person, like a character who feels like they have a life that exists before they

were in this. And I think one of the things that I really wanted to was I wanted it to be a much stranger movie than I felt like it was. I wanted it like I was just thinking when we were talking about, you know, these expectations that ending was too normal for you. It wasn't that it was it was that there was so much formulaic plot in that movie. And yeah, I didn't need any of the backstory or the setup, like I could have just been they could have just started an area X and just and I

found the I found the characters. I mean, it was not just the characters themselves, but how how the like exal the like they were cuts. To feel I couldn't that stuffer, but to feel that's the thing where I'm like, don't don't condescend to self destructive. And I felt That's why. That's why I'm like, I don't I would rather do

away that with that entirely. I would rather have those performances from the supporting characters be purely performance and not written as like, you know, she does X Y Z therefore this, because that feels so on the nose and like like so literal in the way that I don't think this film is operating in a really literal way. I mean, how are you supposed to really like explain

the ending and a to B manner. It's just it's kind of all at that point, I wish this movie had like less dial just spend a lot more like plants growing into animals totally coming each other. Because obviously I like that. Yeah, that was that was great. I

don't know why, but tests is looking up welcome to me. No, I'm not distracted, and I've no but I it's just because when we were talking about the best movie about a self destructive woman, yes, And I think it's it's interesting because I think every time there's a movie that is being framed as being like very strange or kind of mind bendy or something, I'm like, well, I don't know if I should recommend Welcome to Me, judging it against a Welcome to Me. Welcome to Me. It was

not well received. I mean it was not well received, but it was well received by me. But it's like from when you talk about like a self destructive person or a personality where you have that you know, you kind of identify or you see parts of yourself in a very extreme characterization of a person, like Welcome to Me was. It didn't rely on anything familiar, but it painted a very specific and you know, it was a

very full portrait of a self destructive person. Maybe not completely successful, but I mean I wanted something where the characters like you, you know, I really have a hard I'm with the she wears long sleeves and she cuts herself to Felix. I'm like, that's just kind of it is. It's condescending, and it's almost like exactly, this has a lot of tropes that like she cannot deal with, which I respect, and one of them is people using a

stage brush, like people sweeping. It's sweeping the floor. That was my main issue with Horse and Pete, which they don't ever really do a lot of on Cheers. Surprisingly now they don't know it's wiping the bar. And I don't have no problem with wiping the bar. The bar go'll be white. But the floors, when when you see someone sweeping a floor and you look at the floor and you realize that there's nothing there and there's no pile and there's nothing to sweep, that's it takes me

out of it more. But pro cosmic cor yeah, yeah, I mean, I I agree that it should have just been weirder if that's the main like complaint, because I think that, I mean, for the same reason I'm saying that I kind of resist this wanting to read it as like this victory because it's about five strong women.

I like, well, women should also have stories about like like cosmic dissolution too, because like that that is like and usually that is just uh like men get to experience that in movies, and I feel like people are afraid to put women through that kind of thing fully in a movie because it feels like, oh, they're weak, and we need to always show strong women, uh in movies.

And I feel like in something like this, it's so much more and I enjoyed it more certainly than I enjoyed seeing Jennifer Lawrence get the ship beat out of her and mother, Oh my god, Like there there are things about that movie that I liked, but I also, you know, could have done with more zeny suit dancing. Until you see Jennifer Lawrence get the sheet, the ship beat off, the sheet, ship beat out of her in

Red Sparrow. Do you think she has Brendan Fraser? Uh, I guess where she wants to get beaten up in movies as like a self destructive tendency. It's very possible. It's very possible. Well, I mean we all actresses. It's like, yeah, you're a little bit of athochist, all actors. Let's be honest, guys. Let's take another night call. Let's do a night call. So we have another night call, night email. I guess if you will that also happens to double as a

Fraser minute tests you want to read it for us? Sure? So this comes from Kate and she writes, dear night call, I actually already left you two voice messages about two different things, but this also just occurred to me. I was too embarrassed to call back a third time. I'm so grateful that you all provide regular Fraser banter. So my question is, have you ever tried to cast the role of Maris. The first person that comes to mind for me is Parker Posey, But that's never felt quite right.

Despite the entire point of Maris being that she has vividly described but never seen, I can't quite seem to picture her. Is it possible? Is it like trying to imagine the face of God? Thoughts? Great question? Yeah, that was a good one. That's such a tough question because it is like trying to imagine the face of God. Right, I almost don't want to. Like I understand why Parker Posey, especially because of her in Best in Show. Um, but I feel like Marris is almost like transparent, like I

always imagined her as being like a frail ghost. I have maybe an answer. Okay, So, as everyone knows, I've been watching all the Cheers in the world, UM, and I realized from watching Fraser prequel Cheers that the device, the Marrist device of the off screen character is actually from Cheers. Um, in reference to Norm's wife. Um, but it's talked about a lot UM. I also have realized that everything I've ever liked about any sitcom is from Cheers.

Everything I liked about Friends was actually stolen from Cheers. Why did it take you so long to watch Cheers? It's so, yeah, I don't can't. I was always like, why would I want to? I don't like hanging out in bars in real life. Didn't your parents watch Cheers? No? I didn't watch sitcoms until the nineties. There's like a like a blank period where I didn't know anything about culture and the artist. I watched Sesame Street and Red Nerd Books, and then I insisted on watching full house.

Cheers was the first show that I remember watching alongside my mom and not understanding, but like laughing along with the laugh track to prove that I got it. So, I mean, I don't. I didn't remember much about that initial viewing, but I remember like all the characters and the vibe and everything. Yeah. Yeah, my parents watched Twin Peaks. But wait, so who would you cast as marriage? Oh? So I was watching Cheers and there's an episode where I'm in the Rebecca years now, which are you know,

it's a different show, but it's fine. Um, Rebecca's sister came on and she was played by Marcia Cross. I know I remember this, yeah, as her like slotty sister who always steals her man um, and Sam tries to set them up into you know, he tries to play them off each other. Um, And I thought Marcia Cross would be a great merest Actually she's got that. She's see through. She's very, very skinny and sort of attrician looking and scary. But I do also think you can't really.

I think Maris is the person thing from the end of Annihilation because I feel like it would be interesting to cast against type. I think for Mariss, I think my marists pick. The person who's base usually comes into my mind is Jane Adams. Weirdly, that makes sense too, because she appears on Fraser later and she's just got

these big Yeah she is on Fraser. That's right, Um, she's am I allowed to say to ethnic she's like too She's not like waspy enough is my feeling, because I feel like she looks too like um, like a real person. Yeah. I mean, I was gonna say Mercedes McCambridge, but that's like a big time hop. Who's that Mercedes or culture the world's greatest living actress. I'm relying heavily on my phone this podcast. But so, she was the

voice of the demon in The Exorcist. Okay, alright, but also also I wasn't she wasn't she Annie Hall's grandmother Gray Hawk? And I'm making that up. I'm gonna look. I like the idea that Niles is that Mary's is actually like very old. Well, I'm saying I would time hop I don't would believe that that Maris would not necessarily be like either because she's like she's like, she's like our wool war theorists, like she might not be

the most eligible, couldn't you see? And Niles is totally her her beard that she married, Yes, yeah, but also couldn't you see Niles in like a Harold and mod situation? Yes? And then it's just like and they're still together. Um, well, that was a great question. Um let's take it to

speaking of self destructive stadistic tortures. UM. I made Tess and Emily watch Darren Brown The Push, which is a Netflix special from the magician Darren Brown, who is a mentalist and uh a famous person in England but not here. And I feel like this was his first attempt to cross over into America. And what an attempt? Can I say that the title Darren Brown The Push sounds like

a sex toy, I mean, Darren Brown. The Push is a reality TV special that is best described as like a serious Nathan for You death, where you try to socially conditioned someone to agree to push someone off a roof at the end of like a long night in which you've gotten them to agree to do all these different other demeaning things leading up to getting them to murder somebody. What do you think? Nobody was actually murdered,

but that doesn't mean that it didn't feel like somebody was. Yes, I guess I'm so mad at you for making me watch I was. I mean, because I'm the Jennifer Jason Lee. Yeah, welcome and I um, yeah, I was. I did not watch this all the way through. I will admit, first of all, I watched a large a lot of it. I watched over how they missed the ending. I have to cop to the exact names I could not. Did you look up to see what happened? Yeah? I looked. I looked up to see what happened. And okay, guys,

he didn't do it. Yeah, he tried to get somebody else to do it. No, he just didn't do it. He just said, like, no, this is wrong, I won't do it, and then they cut to the three other people they did it on and they all do it. In my head, no, it's amazing. It's like reverse editor because you're like, this guy is totally going to do it, and they lead all the way up to it, and then at the end they're like, you have to do it. You have to push him off the roof, and he's like, no,

I'm not going to. This is fucked up. I don't believe in, Like, I don't want to do it, I don't care. Are like it's not worth it to me. I'm leaving, and you're like ah, and then they're like, oh, but also, we ran this experiment three other times and then they just show you one after the other, the people being like oh no, oh god, they just push him, they like cover their mouths. So I feel like we

can get to a deeper car. I want to maybe not discuss this right away about the veracity of all of this, but I feel like those three other contestants could have easily been not real, Like maybe Chris, you know, I know That's what I'm saying. Like, I mean, before we get into that whole aspect of it about if it's it's like the TV show Cheaters. That's right, yeah, exactly thought experiment and the way it makes you feel, like the fact that you guys both reacted like so

violently it works. We got pushed, you got pushed. I found that they do have They have kind of a button at the beginning that is a different social It's like a microcosm of the whole thing of a man receiving a call at a cafe and the man and is not an actor, but everyone around him is an actor, and um Darren Brown and his friend or coworker, I don't think they're friends. Who knows the other guy he's with.

They call this this person in the cafe, and they instruct him to steal a baby carriage because they say, you know that baby has been kidnapped and where the police you need to get out of bring the baby out of the cafe. So the guy does exactly what they say, and he brings the stroll or outside the cafe, going like this is crazy. I don't feel right about this,

but he's doing it anyway. And I was so immediately disturbed because there's a Truman Show aspect to it of you eliminate you know anyone, nobody around this man is

acting in good faith, and so that that's fascinating. It's fascinating because because in the social Okay, So, first of all, these are all people who signed up for a reality show, went through a barrage of like psychological tests to prove they could be on a reality show, and then we're told they didn't get the job, and then the reality

show starts. So it's like David Fincher's a game. It's like it's even though they auditioned for a reality show, if any of them at any point, and even though everyone around them is acting like an actor, like acting very actory, which is also hard like impossible to tell from British. Yeah, no, I thought everybody was such a bad actor. I couldn't believe it. But like if anybody were like am I in a reality show? Like is this all a setup, like constructed to get me to

push someone off a route to their death? Like, then you'd sound crazy. The kind of the prem recreated corpse is the best actor of anybody, and that thing was like that name is the biggest achievement of the show, is that corpse? Which oh, also Tessa and I saw a preview before Annihilation for the Steven Soderberg movie Unsane. That is for sure a night call. Yeah, so I think I'm going to see it in a couple of weeks,

so we should definitely talk about it. So yeah, Darren Brown, Um, Darren Brown is like he's a mentalist and all of his magic is sort of about social conditioning and linguistic programming and how you can convince people to do things if you talk to them in a certain way and if you like repeat words over and over again. You can't see it right now, I'm doing like a big jack off motion. I can hear it. He's super famous in England and he's also like a genius close up

magic and like regular magic. Um. But I mean, you know, the end of the show is he's like, don't be fascist, Like don't do stuff just because people tell you too, because like even though you think you're helping, you might not be. And like listen to the voice in your head of like why you're doing things instead of just doing things because you think you should. But he underwent I mean he the manipulations and the links that he

went to. It's hard because if it weren't a reality show, and it were an experiment, it would be very very difficult what way does like, at what point does this diverge from anything that resembles anything a normal humans going to go through in life. For one, at this point you would know that maybe you were going to get like mega prank. I don't think that means a shadow LLC or something. No, he well he did one. There's

one about the apocalypse that's really amazing. Yeah, that sounds good. Um, that one's really packed up because it's a kid whose family are like he's a lay about and like we're all tired of his ship. So they all conspire to like help do the con on him, which is the scariest thing of all. His married's baby. Everyone you know is in on it and they're your family. But they're like, he only does is like fucking funk around on his computer.

So they start it's very black Marry. They start like seating his computer with fake news stories, um, and like his phone and it's like the computers in their house. I'll have these fake news stories that like lead up to a sort of twenty eight days later situation. But like nobody you know, I hate everyone, and hey, I mean you know question is what does this do to

the person the subject of this show. I mean, if you if you actually had to put yourself through you know, me to a place where you thought you were pushing a human off a building. I mean, look, they all volunteered, and they're all and then Darren Brown comes out at the Brown comes out at the end, and they're all like so happy to see him, and they're just like,

I love you. That's a social experiment that you're the person who is, you know, pretending that you're illuminating these truths about humanity, but maybe you're just kind of stoking your own ego. Well, he's like a weird con man in you know. I mean, I I don't know if he's a genius in like the Ricky j way. You know,

he's definitely like a manipulator. I think the thing that I um that I find to be the most disingenuous about it is this like kind of underlining message that he's saying that that is going on about, like don't be a conformist, Like don't let yourself get wrapped up

in in a fascist just don't get in it. Don't get in a crazy Truman show or anyone but it's it's I feel like there are so many of these like dog whistles in it are actually way more appealing to like men's rights activists and stuff, because it's all

about here's a compliance mode. It all feels very pick up artist e and like I totally how to manipulate people to like get maybe the alpha and ship, and I like, I find sure a lot of a lot of that Frank T. J. Mackie stuff, the real Frank T. J. Mackie whose name I forget, but who once got mad at me for doing a blog post about how this thing is literally to be like linguistic program people by getting them like you just say like blow me. You say like could you reach that that soda below me?

And you just say like over and over again. It's like your programming them want to blow you reach soda below me? It's a dog like Okay, this is a women's rights activist poems w R all the way up. I have to say, like it was a different time, but I used to watch pickup Artist thought it was an interesting experiment. Just I mean, it was obviously horrible, horrible, and it made me feel rotten inside. But I was

like didn't you like mind Hunter? Yeah, I've been liking mine. Huft. Okay, so you like thinking about like the rotten parts of the human brain. That thing's just if it's real or fictional. And this is the thing, is it felt you know my mixed feelings about The Bachelor for instance, of how you kind of, you know, take these people, you put them on a show. You you create very strange circumstances that they are forced to adapt to. They have real

emotional responses to things that are constructed. There's like an ambivalence there. But then when you take someone, it's essentially emotional torture to prove a point. And I don't think that the point was necessarily proven. And I also think that, you know, it made me very nostalgic for I shouldn't

be nostalgia for it because it's ongoing. But Nathan, for you, where I would expect to feel that same kind of like, oh, I feel morally uncomfortable with but I don't because the motive is not to exploit or somewhere or embarrass somebody. I know a lot of people who can't deal with that kind of comedy in general because they're like too afraid they'd be the mark, you know. But it's not only that. It's so it's so hard to watch someone who is trying to do the right thing, but the

whole frame is that it will be the wrong. The point is that it's hard to do the right thing and people don't care if you do. So, like in that situation, it's like everyone's telling you to push someone off a roof. Do you not do it? Because you're like, no, I still know that's wrong. I guess I just can't get past the actual stress of that he's going through. Like I just I think that that's a traumatic experience

that they put him through. I don't feel like it's for any like particular particularly enlightening outcome, because I think it's applicable to groups. It's just about group psychology and and but I think it's like nothing. I feel like that hasn't been like it. It's like a big Milgram experiment basically, it is exactly what's interesting about I'm like, you can do a millgroom experiment on British television. I mean, I like, only on British television. Don't you do anything

on British television. I thought that one thing that was very thought provoking, and you know occurs like pretty early in the push if you have any interest in seeing it but are ready to duck out. Is when they're doing the auditions. I guess that everyone will be told they fail, but they didn't. They have a bunch of actors and then they invite in some actual, just real people who don't know what's going on, and they ring a bell. Had every time the bell rings. Oh well,

I was like, this is interesting. Every time the bell rings, the actors stand and the people who don't know what's going on. It takes them a while, but eventually they just start mimicking the behaviors of the act right. Wasn't that like annihilation too? It's just like human beings are just animals, man, just adapt dogs man. I mean, I think that there are more interesting things that could have been done with this idea than punishing someone this as

much as they did. I mean, it's it really, I think you have to be at such a distance from someone else's humanity to think that it's worth that cost to make the point. Yeah, I I don't think it's a victim less show. I guess that's how I feel. In the end. I feel like those people could be

like especially the ones. If if those people did indeed go through this entire thing and then opt to kill the guy at the end and then learn that about themselves, I feel like that is that could really fuck somebody up for their entire life and for sure send them down a really bad reality. Um uh, you guys, I'm gonna make you guys watch Haunted, the Haunted House documentary. So I started it and I was really liking it.

I'll make you watch that for next week because what I think, Yeah, it's also can you repeat the name? So it's called haunted. I think it's called haunters. It's called haunters. I keep calling it the wrong name. It's called haunters. It's about people, people who are really into Haunted House stuff and who professionally work as haunters in haunts. But again it's also you have to hip. But it

also you're also going to be mad at me. It's be great because I mean that I watched that right after I just started it, right after the push, and I was like, see, these people want to be some I'm saying, those people want to be scared. People who

signed up for a Darren Brown Show. At this point, they know what they might be in for, because it's like the fifth one of these, and the last one was like the Apocalypse, and the one before that was like getting people to rob a bank, So like it escalates. I wonder what the next next one will be. I honestly want to see one where it's just like, will this person eat three cream pies fifty Yorkshire puddings? Do

we dare? Do you dare? Want something so twisty because fifty Yorkshire puddings would also be tortured so much food, that's so much butter. It ties back to Phantom Thread and here we are all about the hungry boys. Yeah, full British practice. So I guess you guys don't think Darren Brown's going to cross over into America. It's what you're saying. Well, he pronounced taste. He overpronounces his name so hard that I feel like he's really trying to

get his name into our minds. So maybe he won the number one magician from the Magic Castle like two years running to see a mockumentary with someone else playing dar and Brown with a linguistic programmer. So he's just saying his name over and over again. Wow whatever it takes that part where they keep saying whatever whatever, good Well, Um, this this is a lovely night Call. Yeah, it's a

wonderful night. Thank you everybody for listening. And hey, if you like Night Call for a few episodes in now, I think you know who you're in for. Why not leave us a review on iTunes, give us a rating and review and and and subscribe and subscribe if we are already, but you should be doing that by now, right, um and yeah, that that just helps us get the show out in front of more people's eyeballs and helps spread the words. So yeah and um and and as always,

leave us a night call too. If you have any questions or anything to share with us at one two four oh four six night And you can also leave us an email at Nightcall Podcast at gmail dot com. And if you want to follow us elsewhere, come check us out at Facebook dot com, forward slash Nightcall Podcast and on Instagram at Instagram account Nightcall Podcast, and on Twitter at Nightcall Pod. We'll see you in the shimmer. Have a good night.