88: Merry Labyrinthmas

this podcast and my podcasts UM. She's an artist, and she was also MTVS fanatic for Back, which we will talk about more later. We're going to get into it back in the news Um. And she's going to a conference called the Submergence Confidence, so we'll also discuss that. And she's wearing a four local shirt which I just noticed it's actually a dress when it becomes the shirt in the winter Chameleon. We're going to talk about a lot of puppet movies today. The theme of this week's

Night Call is eighties puppet movies for children. I think our theme until the Holidays basically like we're going to submerge ourselves in this and stuff. We were all just we decided that Baby Yoda, the popularity, the rise and fall of Baby Yoda, we're just cashing in on a craze right now, like we're we're yeah, it's viral content. Um. But I think you made a really salient point, which is that the reason people like Baby Yoda is because

it's a puppet. Right. Yeah, and apparently, um, I don't remember if we talked about this before, but Werner Hertzog claimed that he was the one who fought for Baby Yoda to remain a puppet as opposed to c G. I. I still think there's some c G. I like he's been juiced up with a little bit of it. But um, and and called the the I don't know if it was Jon Favreau who we called a coward, but he

called somebody coward in in true Verner Hertzog fashion. But this has been debunked because most things that Werner Hertzog says can be debunked in somewhere or other. Um. So, yeah, the weird thing about Baby Yoda and and not not to I feel like we could do an entire spinoff podcast about Baby Yoda, but that um, you know, they don't have toys for it, which feels like a huge oversight and makes me think that they're not as smart as they like. They seem like evil geniuses for creating

in this thing and for how popular it's become. But there are no toys ready for Christmas for it, which just feels like, what are you doing? People are crocheting their own I know. Like it's also like if you see there's a lot of cheepy Yoda things anyway that just kind of looked like baby Yoda when you see them, like I saw Yoda Christmas ornaments, like oh, baby Yoda. Disney has its own kind of fun co pop esque

iterations of characters, called it Sum Sum. I only know this because once I was in a waiting room somewhere in the Disney channels. The ones you can stack on each other. They're like these little toys. Okay. Our friend Jamie Patterson went to a Disney convention on with a dress that had all of them sewed on. It paid for them. Yeah, it was like a dress made out of them. They're like Disney beanie babies essentially, Wait you wait,

hold up. Was that a decision that she made or was she like paid to do She paid to do it. She was like the model for the Beanie Baby Disney Soon Soon dress. That was a great gig. It was, to be honest, Yeah, I mean more dress is made out of a million stuffed animal right. I think it was very heavy, That's what she said. Actually be Yeah, we got a like sideways speaking of Star Wars creatures

and puppets. Um. We got a kind of like indirect inquiry uh via Twitter from a listener or more specifically, from a listener's boyfriend who had a theory about Nia Nubb. Do you guys know about Niab? Didn't? Got asked? Um? Nia Nub isn't return of the Jedi. He is a slution male. Um he uh. And he looked at it because you'll you'll only know when you see it. Well, so, so he's like Lando's co pilot when Lando goes in to destroy the Second Death Star, um and nodding along,

why space this way? He has some folds? Um, what happened? Well, okay, so when I first saw Star Wars when I was, however old, like seven years old, I just sort of and I've talked about this, I think on blank check before. I kind of just implicitly, without even like questioning it, just understood that he was I thought he was Japanese UM. I thought he was a Japanese alien, UM, and I

thought maybe I was related to him. I just like that, like this is just like because his voice, the language that he speaks, because he only he like speaks unsubtitled in his alien language, and it sounds Asian in nature, I guess uh. And there were some theories like it's so the boyfriend of the listener who did eventually clarify his theory was that he thought that he was supposed to be a Vietnamese alien, which the name feels vietname like fake Vietnamese Um. But apparently he was voiced by

a his name was Bill kept saying road chick. He was a Kenyan student, and he spoke in his native language for the role um, and he became like a local celebrity in Kenya afterwards for being this alien and Star Wars. Pretty like he'sising that more than one person

was like this alien. It's definitely Asia, and like specifically this, I have another Asian American friend who identifies deeply with et see, like what is this is what happens when you're like not representative, You're like, what can I be in this movie? And I mean like, because I was I rewatched um just in preparation for the new Star Wars it's coming out. I rewatched Last Jedi this past week, which does have like the first ever actual Asian character

and it like your main character in it. And it was just sort of like hilarious to think that up until then, the only like substantial Asian representation was like Nea Nub And then in a very dark turn, uh, the what are they called Nemidians in the prequels, which are like basically like super offensive Chinese characters like these like kind of trade and a negotiation Aliens who are just like bureaucrats and super evil and have like bad Twilight.

Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. This is the hardest I've ever thought about any of it, you know. But I was like, oh, the cantina is it in Mexico they have cantinas, not a cantina cantina. But also it is weird that it's like almost all white people and land in space and yes, yeah, yeah, that's weird. And then sometime and whatever timeline that the current trilogy is taking place, and suddenly everything gets more diverse, Like suddenly space is more differ is weirdly fifty years after a return of

the Jedi or however long it's supposed to be. I think it's fifty years yeah. Um, anyway, this is just more This is a Star Wars podcast in short, Um, who's the it's a trap guy. He's Admiral Akbar. I've come to love that one. Oh yeah, he's great, he's a and there, um are there. I feel like there are more like Calamari people in either the new trilogy. People get disappointed when there's like a backstory rhet condan for some character that you had made up your own

weird story for. Yeah. I mean I've kind of gotten used to that now because the animated shows have a lot of that stuff that I just never watched them. And then I'm like, oh, there's like a whole story about this one droid that always creeped me out, like he was a character, um, which I I don't. I I go deep, but not that deep, which is to say, not very deep at all, because they're like entire television shows.

I haven't watched, but but and is like a good example of like that kind of that kind of like creature workshop stuff where it's just like the head and they find a way to like animate the eyes and the but it's like a human body, so it's not a puppet, but like the head is a puppet. The head looks very plastic, like molded plastic. And I can't tell if that's supposed to be hair that looks like a fifties game show host or if that's a hat.

I think it's a little hat um little hat. So the thing about puppets is that they're fundamentally like a little bit off put it. They're weird. They're weird, Lily, and do I have anything to add about puppets, I can't agree more. Are you pro or anti puppet? I'm pro and I specifically was like a super fan of the show syphilin Ali. But then yeah, so those are my main puppet association, Precious Roy Precious puppets are less creepy than like anything made out of molded ly tex.

Yeah that's a little Some puppets are pretty much just cute yea, which it should be the opposite. Like I feel like real puppets are meant to be cute. Stock puppets are meant to be weirder. But it's well, trying to make things cute always backfires. I mean well, kind of like with baby Ood. It's like it works initially, but eventually there's something about like a bit of like a textured or rough kind of thing, or like an innate organic cuteness that sustains. But the manufactured cuteness. You

can't try to be cute. You can't try to be somebody younger and cuter to push you out unless you and then that's forever. Baby Well, should we take a question about some very cute puppets of old, Yes we sure. Hello, nightcall. It's ten fifty one PM in Chicago, Illinois, and my name is Jesse. I'm calling because I've always thought that Gremlins could be classified as womb horror, because it's about like the horror of giving birth and spawning all of

these creeps. I'm evil, But upon a recent rewatch, I feel like it's maybe a little bit more like erase their head, where it's like a fear of fatherhood, because the entirety of the movie is really from the point of view of the young man who has given the serve sweet little creature, uh, and then has no control over anything. But he's just sort of left to clean up the mess. And it just sort of feels like

a weird sort of uh maybe masculine fear of parenthood movie. Anyway, baby Yoda is giving me really maternal feelings and I'm super uncomfortable about it. Thanks to Night Call, good night. Um, great question. Yeah, I heard actually one theory that baby Yoda was a sci op to inspire maternal feelings in women because the birth rate is like down every year four years. Really come on, yeah, man, No, I mean I know the birth rates down obviously, but the color

is right. They're playing into their saying hands. I didn't think that would work. I was like, Baby, it doesn't make you want to have a human baby. You want to have a baby to adopt a French bulldog. Yeah, but it makes you want to have a little bit like any time your baby Yoda gets picked up and you realize how light and we he is, it doesn't make me go like, don't they referred to him as

the child, yes, an officially baby Yoda child. Well, when is the last time you guys watched Gremlins, Okay it's been I watched it like as an adult but not recently, and I love Gremlins. Gremlins reps. We should do a

whole Gremlins episode, totally, we should. But I definitely I had not thought of this, and I don't know if it's particularly paternal, but I definitely think there's something about And also this ties in with a movie we'll be talking about later, Labyrinth responsibility, like the fear of like fucking up a huge responsibility, which is such a valid fear um and one big responsibility as children and they're very cute and then things can go wrong and then

they can turn out bad. And yeah, I mean I definitely I was like, yes, maybe that's why I loved Gremlins.

And also may maybe like, oh, what's the other great maternal horror movies or like uh, but like it's really interesting when it's stuff that's pitched at kids, because doing this work early to be like no wonder like if you watch Gremlins and you're a little boy, like maybe you're like I never want to have a pet in my life, like that it makes you want to have a gizmo that it makes you want to, but it's also a good parable for like, well, you could adopt

a critter and then it could turn against you and destroy everything. The Big Gremlins or Teenager. Yeah, yeah they are. They are. Well that's also like what's good about alien Like how all the Motherhood horror movies have just like scary puppets in them. Yeah, it's true. I mean you have to get a good amount of goo in there. I think also I got to have something punching out of something. Have you seen Gremlins too? I've actually never seen gin Amazing. It's funny and it's like a like

a satire of the eighties and movie making. There's like the Key and Peel sketch about Gremlins too, where it's just like they go around the room and just like call out names of kinds of gremlin and they're like it's in the movie. Yeah, it's just like yeah, it's

totally like, oh, you want us to merchandise this. Here's a million new characters, and it has the sexy Lady Gremlin, which was totally the baby Yoda of her day because everybody was like, oh my god, they put lipstick online and now feels like It is like that part in Wayne's World and they're like, you know, bugs Bunny puts on lipstick and you want to make out with bugs Bunny. Um, some of us wanted to kiss the gremlins in all their forms there. You're furry if it's for a gizmo,

you're like a scaly if it's for really. I know it's a slippery slope. But when I think about the grapes that tastes like hot and candy, I'm just like, how hard could it be to make? Have you not had these? But but I never tied those things together. I never made the connection before. And this is another movie too that was just like about like white people's fear of Asian culture and like, oh, if you buy products from overseas, like scary things will happen. And again,

it totally just makes you want to go buy a gizmo. So, well, we're going to take a quick break and when we get back, we're going to talk more puppits of course, and we're back. Um. So a long running campaign on Nightcall has come to a close because we finally got Molly to watch Labyrinth Labyrinth, not the Labyrinth Labyrinth, Um Labyrinth Labyrinth. UM. I watched about half of it just to refresh myself. It was it was a fairly big movie of my childhood, but I hadn't seen it in

the second Um. But yeah, it's a Jim Henson movie if you haven't seen it, with David Bowie and Jennifer Connelly and about losing a baby. So it's just like pure panic all the way through. Like that's the experience of watching Labyrinth and the uncut gems. Yeah, it is Labyrinth is I mean it's kind of always panic inducing. Um. What did you think about it watching it for the

first time as an adult? First time ever? Actually? Right, as with many things, Yeah, I had a total misconception of what it was going to be like and then it was totally different And what did you think it was going to be? But it was a medieval fantasy movie because it's called Labyrinth. You know, you didn't listen

to us the whole time. We were like, no, it's not that babysitting adventure that and then I was like, okay, you said it was like when you said it's like a girl never ending story, and I was like, oh, all right, but there's like a part in they showed at the beginning wearing like a princess dress, but it's her just practicing. Yeah, very nice costume, better than most schools can afford. Yeah, I don't know what I thought this movie would be like, but it's just so weird.

How can you not like it? Yeah? Um, it's so deeply weird and it's exactly what we wanted to talk about, which is just like children's movies in the eighties, We're so scary. They felt very dangerous and so horny and like no movies like but especially children's movies now are not like that. But also like even adults movies for children, it's like they don't have any of the weird spiky parts that give you the weird nightmares and help you

grow as a person child. You said something like they make they made us strong because they made us afraid, which which resonated. I mean, Labyrinth has a lot of the puppets and Labyrinth are really purposefully ugly. Yea, and they're like wrinkly, they look kind of brown. Yeah, well they look dusty. They look like they've been hanging upside down Godfather color Palace. Yeah, and they have the wispy hair and like they look kind of stinky, Like a lot of them are kind of like right, like that's

the big kind of like snuffle up. I guess one um that is the animal that has the face of a monkey about like we can't go to like the swamp because like bog of not bog of eternal stench, but something um there's there. It has a lot of like smell elements and like burping, belching, wheezing and moss and just like wetness, Like the labyrinth itself is very wet, and there are lots of like tunnels that you can fall down it is you get lost. There are little

like like moss like creatures with eyeballs on them. Yeah, also the tunnel with the hands. Yeah, like the scariest part to me. You know, there were a lot I mean just like as a fan of puppetry, yea many parts that I was like, this is so cool. Well it's just like it's it's I have not seen dark crystal. Actually that's the thing, you guys haven't seen dark crystal. That dark crystal is really dark. Like content wise, everybody looks unsettling in a in a way that as a

child I found very accessible. But when I tried to watch it again, I just couldn't get could not isn't that weird? Like I've watched recently on Disney Plus just because I find it useful to revisit every now and then. Now and then I watched A Little Mermaid just because it's a movie that I watched every single day of my life when I was four years old, and so there's no way it hasn't affected me on some very

deep cellular level. And yeah, like, well you made something, you chased them the Underset Dream, But like, yeah, there are things where it's just like I took for granted how such and such a character was designed or something. I just thought like that, like the Little the Little Need Souls and Ursula's cavern. I was just like, yeah,

that's like a that's like a scary thing. And I'm like that that's such an interesting design, like and such a weird, unexplained kind of creepy factor that I feel like that's actually kind of a gift of somebody like Jim Henson to come up with stuff like that that just makes sense to kids. Stuff. There's stuff that's in the gutter between creepy and like enchanting, you're like you're like compelled by it because you're sort of repulsed by it.

And then there's like things that are just kind of repulsive in a different way because they're like so shiny and boring. Yeah yeah, where you're just yeah, you're you're the eyes rejected because it's too clean, like me and most Pixar movies, and we're in such a zone of like extreme cleanliness. And you know Marvel movies that have just like these giant c g I stage battles and stuff like that that have like nothing real to hold

onto in it at all. And I have always said this that you know, nobody's improved on Jurassic Park, which was a mixture of puppets and c g I. And I was always like, well, why don't they do that more? And it's like, because it turns out it's really expensive, more expensive than doing either one individually, but it's the only thing that looks good. Well to be like the Lord of the Rings movies, I feel like we are

actually the last like the first three. I didn't see all the Hobbit ones, but like those did a lot of mixing of practical and c g I effects. I think it was like the thing that bothered me about those movies was the way that like the sky was always perfectly tweaked to be like the most beautiful sunset I've ever seen. Was just like I wanted to be

a little bit more like Terence Malick. Well, that was the first film that they were really like going to town with digital grading, and I was like, too much. There can be too much of the thing, like use it sparingly if I can detect it, you're using too much. And obviously it's not like you don't know there's like people in a puppet suit, right, but that's part of

the thrill. Well, elide shut what about um? Well, Like I was thinking of Hoggle the Little Guy and Labyrinth, who is like the first creature it's really encountered in it other than the like the Greek chorus of goblins at the beginning of the movie. And that's like another thing where it's like it's a it's a little person

in a in a head. It's like in the head is a puppet because the head has like I was trying to figure out how it works, and it feels like it's like that Jaws just maybe operated by the person inside actually moving their jaw because it's very limited and it's it's just open and shut like the mouth movements, but the eyes in the face are like fully expressive, which is really it's such a it's so wild that like for a decade, like people got really good at

this kind of thing and like involved, and now we don't really used through the peak of you know, puppet peak, puppet peak, puppet and rubber rubber mask, latex creature technology. It's true, and it got the most broke point and then it totally disappeared. So the idea that Baby Yoda made people be like, oh, like a puppet. It's expressive in a way that like c G I just like cannot be you feel like the puppet is a real

thing in a different way. Yeah, that's so great. But puppets in person I find more disturbing than puppets on the screen because there's the subtleties that you can accept of the limitations of the mouth movement and stuff like that in person are even kind of more glaring and feels really wrong. Right, It's like if you see a taped play exactly, you know, that's my favorite. Can I hear everybody's footsteps. Yeah, I mean Labyrinth was awesome. It

was my favorite part. Well, I think I was also just afraid that it would like introduce me to some kind of a corny David Bowie, and that that was something I wasn't prepared to ever face. You know, he's in full I've seen the gifts out of context and I was like, oh, it's like silly David Bowie. But then it's a very horny Yes, that's remember from Labyrinth,

is like David Bowie's moose knuckle. I think I just I'm not like think of those things who You're like, I won't be like every single other person who thinks that like a hot person is like Tim Curry in the Rocky Horror Picture Show. And then you're like, no, I no, everybody thinks that for a reason, he's the

best at this. And also like when you see David Bowie at a young age with this moose knuckle and you're like six or whatever, it really does kind of color the rest of your Like, I feel like I feel like a lot of people in our generation were deeply influenced in ways that can never be reversed. Yeah, I'd seen it earlier because it's very I can imagine.

I was watching and I was I was thinking, like it feels actually a lot like a Miyazaki movie, Like you can really easily imagine a population of it, which would also be really cool, it would be different, but the whole kind of where it's it's sort of a template to just like let a visual imagination go, like in a new place and there's all tons of new,

weirdy creatures and things to see. Yeah. I think one thing that I also like enjoyed watching or like kind of reappreciating this time is how much because I remember like playing Labyrinth as a kid, and there are so many little ideas and tricks in the movie that I don't really have anything to do with the puppets, but they're just like you know, where a wall looks like a wall and then and then it's not they can walk through and uh, you know, the little switching of

the tiles and stuff where it just feels like stuff that's very like it's very inspirational for playing and like make believe when you're a kid, which is really cool. Like I feel like that's very like, I don't know,

that's like a force for good as far as I can. Yeah, it's like Alice in Wonderland, where it's like it's got its own logic, and the logic is that it makes no sense, but it's also it's just like it's also kind of just a love triangle between well, Hoggle is in love with her and he gets friend zone and he's like, she'll never love you, idiot. I didn't think this Christal Ball. Do you think that that David Mowe

could actually do that with you? Couldn't? I found out it was a hand double and also like I think that's the thing puppet puppeteers can do, maybe because they're good. Yeah, it just had some of the like Moment Shawn stuff like the face faces made out of hands and stuff, like they probably had all these ideas that were too

scary for Sesame Street. They knew they could do um and I think that they're afraid to see it, because I was like what if It's like, I'm very unsettled by things that like makes Sesame Street fucked up my most hated troupe. Um wait in what way? Like stuff that makes it? Stuff that's like they're killing each other. And there was a Liquid Television segment where like Burton Ernie like siced anddised each other and it really oh god, you know, and I was like, I will avoid Garry

puppets right too scary for me. Um, this has a heart of gold. There's no slicing and dicing. Yeah, there's the threat of slicing and dicing, but it's not. There's a masquerade ball. Yeah that's its. But like you said, I had an Uber driver once who told me about there's like a Causplay Labyrinthe masquerade ball I think every year that they do downtown because she was a Cause player and she was like, have you ever Cause played? You should causeplay as Marita from Brave because of your Sure,

she goes every year too. There's like this Labyrinth cosplay masquerade ball that it started as just being Labyrinth themed and now it's like maybe even a little more generally steampunk. But we should totally do this if our Patreon goal every single episode, I'm like for our next Patreon goal, and then we never changed it on the Patreon, but

maybe that will be a Patreon goal. Um. We got a message on the Facebook group for a nightcall Nightcallers by Lindsay, and she pointed out it's pretty well established that the Labyrinth world and everything in it is a manifestation of Sarah's childhood fantasies and unconscious desires. Before she goes there, we see that her bedroom is full of toys and posters that resemble characters and scenes from the

Labyrinth World. But if you look closely at the photos of Sarah's glamorous stage actress mother on her mirror, you'll notice that her handsome young co star called Jeremy and the novelization appears to be David Bowie. So not only is the Goblin King a kind of teenage rockstar fantasy, he's also based on her image of her mom's boyfriend, very Electra. Yes, yeah, but not her dad nor her dream dad. Her room and the kind of like references throughout the movie or also it has a lot of

like Easter eggs that are fun. Yeah. I thought Jennifer Connelly was great. I guess she got bad reviews people remain to her some of her performances in Labyrinth. Yeah, that's shocking, Um, but I thought she was great. Well, Um, I'm glad you finally have had your eyes open. I mean the songs, but did you scary because I didn't. I found it super scary. It's still pretty scary. I mean it's it's just unpleasant, like I think, like, I mean, it's it's cool, but it's like it gives you this

sort of like yuck feeling. I feel like even when I was a kid and I liked it, it was just because it felt like I mean, it felt like going out into the wilderness and the mud and stuff and like finding weird mush the way David Lynch movies are scary. It's like it's about your subconscious and anxiety dream. Yeah, and you have to do some weird task and there's like incredibly weird rules to follow. Who is everyone's favorite creature?

I like the little eyeball moss things. That's like the first thing I think of when I think of Labyrinth, because I think that just really troubled me for whatever reason when I was young, Like it was very setting. Um, but they're a very cool little design. I like them. I like that thing I can't remember the name of. It looks like a fuzzy elephent with a monkey's face. Yeah, exactly know. They're cute too. Um. I like the word good and I was like I'm in he has a

little scarf and I've seen it. It It was one of those things too. I was like, oh, I've seen this image before and now I know. Yeah, I understand, Lily. Do you remember having one h David Bowie's moves nut Yeah, yeah, dance, magic dance. Um, well, I don't remember any of you.

I was just gonna say, maybe we should take a little break and then when we come back, we should talk to Lily about some pretty breaking news within the past week that affects her personally, and a reaction on air going deep under the sea and making art about all the cool creatures you see. We'll be back, and

we're back. So guys, we were talking, Um, we actually we assumed Lily knew the fact that Beck has has now come out and said that he's no longer a scientologist, that he never was a science yeah, which which that's just clearly fun. He just said I am not a science I think he just said I am not a scientist. I'm not affiliated. He said, I'm not, so okay, I'll find the which we would know this right it was. It wasn't an interview with this Sydney Morning Harold. So

this is the quote. He says. Um says, there's been persistent speculation and curiosity about Beck's own beliefs, and he said, I think there's a mixed conception that I am a scientologist. I'm not a scientologist. I don't have any connection or affiliation with it. My father has been a scientologist for a long time, but I pretty much just focused on my music and my work for most of my life, intended to do my own thing. I think it's just

something people ran with. That's the quote. Um, alright, that's the role of the the world's foremost pacologists. We know you may have been off the grid having a child. No, I mean I'm a lapsed ecologists. Like I stopped. I was a big fan of an incredibly big fan of Beck when I was in high school, and I interviewed him on MTV as his number one fan, and I

think I legitimately was. But then, Um, I kind of got less connected to the music as I stopped being a teenager and he was Yeah he was my life, yeah, um, and like was not as into his music post See Change, and I believed him to be a scientologist. Of course, part of my teen crush was that we were going to be together one day, and if he was a scientologist, that couldn't happen. It was although I did toy, of course with joining the religion too, didn't happen. How far

did she down the street to the celebrity Center. I took it. I actually, let's see, I was on a scavenger hunt and I bought dianetics quote for the scavenger But that's as close as I got it. That's a brilliant way to get kids to read dionetics to create a scavenger huts. It's fun, it's part of a game. So do you think Beck was a scientologist? I mean, I feel so weird going against what he's saying. But I definitely got the impression he was because he married

Marissa Rabi. It was very carefully worded. Yeah, yeah, that's true. But he did in two thousand five he did explicitly say, um, yeah, I'm a scientologist. My father has been a scientologist for about thirty five years. So I grew up in and around it and stuff. I remember that. And before that, he used to say who was Jewish? He specifically said identified as Jewish in like the nineties, because he's closer

with his mom, right, who maybe is not. I'm actually very close with his She became friends when I was in high school and she's awesome, and she is not a scientologist. Um. She and I have never discussed it, but my impression is that she may have been at one point, but I don't think she is anymore. I'm I'm yeah. His dad obviously is. And my theory was that,

like she left the church with his kids. But I've never talked to you about it, so I think that is the But again, it's interesting that somebody can be this famous and there are things we just like fundamentally don't know about them that seems very impossible for like anyone else at this point, dare they spill the so some some other former lapsed scientologists have have taken issue

with this quote. Uh specifically Leah Remany, who um I believe said that it was a pussy move for him to claim he was never a scientologist, and she was like, you can quote me on that pussy move, yes, yes, um yeah. And and Mike Render is that how you say his last name? The former senior executive sent he

has the website about scientology. He was also kind of um, you know, it feels basically, it feels like a cheat to them, Like it's one thing to have been at one point and to say that you're not anymore, but then to deny that you ever were. But again, I don't think he's denying it. I think he's just phrasing it care fully because again it's like if he does have an ex wife who's maybe in and like children, you know, than like because he doesn't want to be

an sp Yeah. I. I also again like for people who were born into it, I give them like so much more leeway or just anyone. I feel like it's like just another religion in many ways, there are like a lot of religions that do things that are shady. Like to me, it is not worse than the Catholic Church. It's just newer. Yeah. I. And also just like I've known people that like were scientologists and there aren't anymore

and like nothing bad happened to them, you know. I think sort of the idea that like they are this all powerful like you were saying, like the way that Disney wants us to think of them is like the most like all knowing, evil company. Like I think in a lot of ways they're just sort of like more like an MLM or something right. Well, that they are a really good example of the fuzziness, at least in

America between a religion and a business. And I think that's what's creepy about them, because it's like you can kind of explain a lot of the stuff, the awful stuff that the Catholic Church has done over history with like, well, it's faith, and it's like what people do are capable of when they have a faith, and like sometimes it's

good things and sometimes it's bad things. I think like the fact that I mean they would say otherwise, but that their model is pretty explicitly a business, I think is the thing that makes it feel more Like if I know lots of stories about people who had been personally threatened and really harmed by the Church of Scientology, I would not share them because I'm afraid of the

Church of Scientology. If I had new people who would say that Scientology is far worse even than the Catholic Church, what about all the peophilia in the Catholic Church, I mean pretty doesn't get worse than that, like the scars. Yeah, That's what I'm saying, is that there's a lot of religions. I mean, this is probably my hottest take, but obviously, like I do think that a lot of religions have

like fucked up ideologies to perpetuate violence. People take a special kind of offense to Scientology because it's so new that they can be like it started like a hundred years ago. Where do you think Shelly is where? But that's what I'm saying, Like you know, one Shelly mis Covige. It's also the legal team, the legal team, which is why if I knew lots of horrible things about the Church of Scientology, would not share them on this podcast,

but would share them afterwards in the elevator. Because they, I have heard, will hound individuals in a way that

larger religious organizations won't bother with. They are litigious. I have heard to the point of like ruining people's lives who don't have much power them cells and using a huge amount of energy to destroy this random person who well, then again, can you blame back for not wanting to be like exactly you know, I think for somebody like Leah Remini, who has taken a hard stand, it's probably like galling to her to be like yeah, I mean, but yeah, I am a pussy isn't the best way

to convey that either. Sure, I'm not really defending yeah, and also she shouldn't be using the word pussy in a derogatory way. Yeah. Yeah, I guess you mean he's awesome because the list of everything we've said about Pussy so far, all their all their great traits. You're saying he's cute, like the gizmo from Massy invertants speaking, I would have to agree. How about those dark depths? Uh, Lily another a cavernous, the deeps um deep. Everything I

paint from the deep looks like a vagina. Yeah, well, because the ocean is vaginal. Um. I am. We're all, I think, big fans of your art. So I just wanted to talk with you about that because you've probably mentioned on Molly's other podcasts kind of the work that you do, but it's you do really cool, like you

go way down deep in that ocean. Yeah. Yeah, Well it's kind of funny because I was a super fan of Beck and now I'm a super fan of these sea creatures, and I went to great to meet Beck and now I go to great lengths to meet sea creatures in person, where you I know you just came from the airport where you like coming from a project. No, no, um,

but I'm doing a project here that's really cool. Oh yeah, my. Well, so I got really into ecosystems that live around hydrothermal vents and chemical seeds because we used to think there was no life in the deep sea because there's no light and so there's no plants, so there can be no food chain. And then in the seventies they discovered that there are these chemical hot spots where microorganisms turn sulfur and methane into energy, and then bigger creatures eat

those micro organisms. So my next project is I'm working with a scientist at Caltech who studies the actual microorganisms and how they turn those chemicals into energy. So how do they um, uh, well, it's complicated. I don't know if I can summarize it, but basically, they consume methane.

ARCHAA and bacteria work together to consume methane and sulfur and then like the things that I've been painting are, I got into it because I got really into the yet E rab, which is this um deep sea crab that has is all white and it's got white furry pinchers, and the pinchers are covered in this like the fur is actually uh like filamentous bacteria and so that bacteria like consumed sulfur and then the crabs farm it and eat it, eat the bacteria off. Such a cool crab.

So yeah, I got to dive in a submarine and see actually yetti crabs and they look like fraggles. Actually they do full circle, they really do. I mean they have like, um, it's like those like, uh, those leggings like rave girls. Where's funny. I made a yetti crab costume for for Burning Man, like twelve years ago, and uh. And then I got there and I was like, oh no, I just look like a raver. What is it like to go in a submarine that deep? Is that? Is it terrifying? Are you used to it now? No? I

haven't been that many times. But I've been to see a lot of times, but I've only been in the sub twice. And what was really cool is I was at sea and one of the submarine pilots new Molly and Jefferson. This is proof that Molly knows everyone. And I wrote Terra. I was like, I'm on a ship and of course the submarine pilot. It's like, I can't believe I'm not a submarine pilot. Yeah, there's still time. Yeah, totally wanted to be a submarine biologist because I'm seeing

the Little Mermaid. Yeah yeah, um and yes, So many of the things that you have documented in your paintings are such like labyrinthy that's true. Yeah, And the Yeti crabs that I saw. The species they have this crazy behavior where they wave their pinchers above their heads continu uously and it looks like they're dancing. So they're very very fraggle, right, fraggle, and that's like a very fraggly type of dand like specifically the like kind of car wash.

They're so cute, it's crazy. They Yeah, it's like totally dark, and then you look around and you just see all these like fuzzy fuzzy white claws waving at you, like every crevice. I thought i'd see like a handful of yetti crabs, but they're like hundreds of them. Are they doing it to pretend to be like a different like

seaweed or something or what are they? I think it's because they're stirring up the sulfur in the water to feed the bacteria on their pinchers, because the ones that live around hydrothermal vents where it bursts out really dramatically, they don't do that. So it's only the ones that live at these like chemical sleeps where it comes out more slowly, so then they have to like stir up. It's this kind of creature that can't be brought up to sea level because it will just just like get

destroyed the pressure. For the lack of pressure, I guess, well, actually it's more the change in temperature that I think, uh damages them in transit. But we actually did keep them alive on the ship for the whole time we were at sea, and they had they're so cute. They were in like um, they were in these like little containers and they didn't like fight with each other anything.

They're just like very loving and they make all these like orgiastic piles on the floor, just like like the babies are in little crevices, but the adults all pile on each other. And that's also weird because most crustaceans don't like to touch each other unless they're having sex or fighting. But they're peaceful yeties. Yeah, they're peaceful, loving that's amazing. Life just like so boring to you know, you're like a person who went to space like that.

I miss it all the time and missing Antarcticle all the time too. How long were you there in Antarctica? Uh? Days? And then I was there for a month and a half like two years prior, so like a total of It's funny. It's totally like the place from the thing. And then the way Lily would talk about it should be like there's an open mic night. Do you basically know everybody who's in Antarctica when you're there, Like it's

like when I was there. Yeah, there's like, well, there's town, which is the research station McMurdo, and then they're like little field camps where you'll be with only like six other people or something. But yeah, I got to know most people in town. There's like a capacity of twelve hundred people. That's more than I would have thought. Yeah, but it's not usually that full. And so yeah, it was so fun. It's like camp. There were three bars

in town. Oh good drunken Antarctica. There's a Yeah, there's a lot of um. There's like a whole subculture. It's like the ice it's like ice cold burning man. Yes, they have freezing man. They're regional god Antarctica. Oh definitely. Yeah, there's there's drama rama yea. The scientists are called beakers and then the people who are like science support. Shoot, I can't remember, I'm so rusty, but yeah, they refer to the scientists as beakers, like in a derogatory way. Um,

just like a slang way. And but yeah, there's sort of like if you're science support, you're there for the long haul, like um minimum of four months, and then some people stay for a full year, and most scientists are there for a shorter portion of that, so it's like you're not really native. But I was there a whole almost the whole season. I was in between. I mean,

I can't even is like going to space. It's such a it's such a different and especially to be there for that long or it does like it's long enough to become your normal. Yeah to You had a video in one of your shows. Yeah, under the Sea ice because I got to scuba dive. It's the largest expanse of sea ice in the world McMurdo Sound, and it's all like six ft thick. Yeah, this is where I was like, I would have checked. I could not do this because under the ice, Yeah, that's so scary. That's

why I went in. It's so beautiful, Like on top it's just white, but underneath there's this like microalgae that grows in the ice that makes it glow like neon green and gold, and like the ice texture is super feathery, and it's just like the most My friend Henry Kaiser

called it like mainlining LSD. It's just so so trippy, and you can see a thousand feet because there's nothing growing in the water because it been dark, and you're diving in like early spring, so there's like you feel like you're just flying through the air in this crazy landscape and there's like submerged glaciers and I would lose my mind immediately. Were you afraid you might just like swim off and become a mermaid, an nice mermaid I wanted to? Yeah, Yeah, it was like, yeah, it was

other than the YETI craft. Do you have a favorite creature that you've encountered personally? Um? Uh, Well, my other favorite deep sea creature is probably the giant tube worm Riftia, which is the first deep sea creature that was discovered at hydrothermal vents in the seventies and they they're very like Freudian. They look like phallic and vaginal, and they get up to like six ft long, and they're just they're sort of iconic because they're like the first chemos

the very sent seventies too, so it's very appropriate on trend. Yeah, basically I was a more for Halloween in second grade. A long love. Yeah, I think I saw or something. The two were predated back then. Yes, yeah, I'm really I'm back to my roots, right right, that was a diversion. There's probably no way of really knowing this, But are any of the animals that live that deep in the water smart animals because the two were octopi, But do

they live like way that they do? Yeah? Yeah, Actually, there's a really cool photo I'll send you guys of the There's was an octopus that came up and shook hands with the sub, so you know this is like a pro octopus. H I've heard that as a seal friend.

Oh yeah, there in Antarctica, the seals used to use our dive holes because they have to find cracks to breathe through in the sea ice and then we have dive holes that stay open like the whole season, so they would come to the dive holes and breathe and they just be there chilling, hanging out. Yeah, to wait for them to move away from the whole so you can leave. Were they friendly? Could you like approach? They were totally have a picture with one where it looks

like it's a dog. It's like so cool. Yeah, they weren't friendly like the way dolphins might be friendly, but they were very present, like they would just be right next to you. Yeah, that's so cool. And they're huge. The Woodell Seals they're like, I don't know how big, but they're huge. The big baby bloppers. Yeah, we want to hug them all. Yeah. I mean the other thing about Baby Yoda is like, there's cuter things in real life. Yeah, and you can all of them, but the ones you

can hug. Do you really think I have to circle back to this, but do you really think that Baby Yoda was intended to lift a flagging birthrate? As soon as I like, I believe it from my own personal experience of seeing Baby Yoda for the first time, But I don't know if it's that if they didn't want to know that they know. But I had I had the thought. I had the thought first a listener had that thought. Yeah, so I guess it's provable. Now I

feel like anything vaguely neotonous can trigger that reaction. It's the big eyes. I mean, yeah, I don't know. It's it's it's it's a helplessness too. You're just like, I gotta help baby Yoda. So he doesn't even have his bass net anymore. Oh my god, it's gonna get so cold. When I thought you turned on him, I did turn on him. We don't have enough time to talk about why. This time I thought that there was a new image

of Amy Sadaris carrying him. Oh my god. Um, well, thank you so much Lily for coming by and talking about your your twin interests more in common than also back there's still a chance. So um, she's waiting. Where can we find your work? Is there give a site or someplace where people can check out what you do. I have a show that's up right now at the Harvard Museum of Natural History, cool and it's up till March,

so if you're in that area. And then also I have a website Lily Simonson dot com or Old genres dot com, which is like an art joke, like New Genres is like video and performance. So I got. I was very happy to get that you are l as a painter. I make paintings. I don't know if Yeah, you're also going to be painting an underground tunnel? Oh yeah? Where ye tunnel related to measure it? But it wasn't

open on the weekends. Yeah, that's that's the Victoria Orphan is at Caltech and she's the one who studies the archaea in bacteria that help these deep sea communities thrive, provide food. We all the food chain. Can we take a Nightcall sojourn to an underground tunnel? Okay, perfect, we'll put that in the calendar. Maybe that will be our next tunnel to a lab. Yeah, it's very cool. Yeah. Um well, thanks so much for listening Tonight Call. If you are not subscribing to us already on iTunes, you

should do that. Leave us a review and rating helps us a lot. You can also follow us on social media and on Twitter, at Nightcall Pod, Instagram, Nightcall Podcast, and Facebook at Night Call Podcast, and join our Patreon if you haven't already, We're at Patreon dot com slash Nightcall, and you can chip in at any level you would like. We have another book Club episode coming out this month in a couple of weeks, so get in now to get in on that um and yeah, we'll see you

all next week. Nightcall is a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.