Welcome to NFL Daily's Top twenty five players of the last twenty five years. Yes, this is the first episode. It's going to be a six part series. I'm really excited about And there is no one I would rather start the series with than my friend Mina Kimes of ESPN. This is a big responsibility, Mina taking the first episode.
Hello, I'm excited to do this. The players that are in this bunch are great. This is a great group. I mean, they're all great, that's the general premise of this entire thing, but they're really fun players to talk about. So I'm particularly excited to be twenty five through twenty one.
Yeah, a couple things I noticed putting the list together that it's backloaded, like the current players are more towards the back. Don't blame Mina or any of the future guests that are coming on the show. It is my list, but that they're coming on to give their impressions. And we have a lot of great guests. Kevin Harlan is going to be on the show coming up, your buddy, Nate Tice, Brian Baldinger, Steve Weis. It's going to be
really great. Just a couple of little ground rules. Though, for the listeners out there, if they're curious, it was more about sustained greatness over like a three to five year period. Was like where I started, like, you're not going to be on this list if you only had one or two great years. That's almost a prerequisite. But it wasn't about longevity to me. It was like who was the very best and maybe longevity is a little bit of a tiebreaker.
Do you think that's like a fair way to do it? Yeah?
I do.
I mean we're talking about especially when you're talking about top twenty five, it's tough, man. Yeah, you're gonna have to make some really difficult cuts and you're gonna have to set guidelines. I think around like, it's kind of like when we do general debates that we're like who's the greatest of all time? You have to take longevity into account. You can't just be like a guy at his peak. I actually think the player you're starting with
is a great He really is. He really is perfect fodder for this exact question is exact debate because there's another player who he's constantly compared to, who I think is probably also on your list, and you're by starting with this player, you're making drawing a line in the sand, really and you're kind of it's a take.
Honestly, it absolutely is, which means we should just get to it. But yes, he's on one side of the equation. You're absolutely right, you're gonna find out. And a second on the other side, for instance, is maybe a guy like no Imdasamawa or something. And not that he was close to making this list at all, but for a three to four year period he was one of the coldest cornerbacks of the last twenty five years. Like, obviously he's not gonna make it because that's too short of
an absolute peak. But this list is full of guys who had crazy high peaks.
Larry Fitzgerald is not on this list, for instance.
I don't want to spoil too much, but he's a guy when you look at it, not that he was a compiler, but a one first time All Pro or first team All Pro, like two second teams, his highs weren't quite as high.
Let's just get the little list. Let's go to number twenty five.
Number twenty five, Travis Kelcey Maholmes gets the shotgun snap pulps throws for the end.
Zone to Kelsey Asting makes the catch touchdown.
Travis Kelcey put a touchdown in.
The back right corner of the in zone.
Kansas City wins it forty two thirty six and over time.
Patrick Mahomes back does get up the road middle Travis Kelcey, this dude's taking over and been dominant in the playoffs.
When Mahomes throws doing they have a.
One forty quarterback writing, I mean, this is Montane wife territory.
I don't care what people call us.
I know I'm back to back and I won three in whatever year.
Y'all can call us the dynasty.
You can call us whatever you guys want.
I know we got it.
Something more special than really what you've seen in the NFL is because the guys in his locker room, in the headcoach.
It has been a wild dirty we have been on with Travis Kelcey.
Yeah.
I remember when he slips in the draft because of tests and stuff and underrated and comes out. He was older when he came out, twenty four years old. He didn't have his first thousand yard season un till he was twenty seven years old. And yet he is one of the most famous certainly and one of the defining players. I mean, you started this whole thing already saying I'm making a take. What do you think that take is putting him at twenty five?
Well, I guess that take depends I'm making an assumption, which is that Rob Gronkowski comes later.
Yeah, you're in this list.
Okay, So that's the take, right, Because this is the debate, and it's a debate, the debate between Gronkowski and Kelsey, and I think is a really good debate, and I think it's not one that's like there's an obviously glaring right answer. I think you can argue either side. It's about longevity, it's about dominance, it's about peaks, it's about postseason accomplishments. It's also about the nature of this particular position.
I think that's the most important thing. Is when you're talking about who is better, who was greater, who was more dominant, you were also talking about, well, what are we expecting out of the tight end position?
Aolute And yeah, his blocking obviously is not nearly what Rob Gronkowski's is. But I don't want I don't want to be comparing those two the whole time, because at first he wasn't even on my list, and then I started thinking about, yeah he was well because I'm thinking about absolute dominance.
Who are the best?
But it's crazy the Hall of famers that are not making this list. I mean there are there are a lot of them. This is a it's a tough list. But for first team All pros three seconds. He's on the All two thousand and tens team for the Hall of Fame that they put out. He has the numbers like most yards, most playoff touchdowns now, like third in receiving yards among tight ends. So the numbers are all there in terms of counting stats, and I just think his peak wasn't like as high as some of the
guys higher on this list. But it is ridiculous, meana, how many defining moments he's had. And it's because he's been in the playoffs so long, but it's because he finished those games that catch you.
Heard to start.
It was the Divisional round, maybe the best game of this decade that he finishes in the overtime against Buffalo. He's had like so many walkoffs, including against the Chargers. We might hurt hear that one a little later, like him beating Kyle Hamilton in the AFC Championship just a couple of years ago. The walk, Like, he's had so many absolute big moments and he's just been incredibly consistent, and.
He had to make this list.
I talked to our friend Nick right because I was thinking about Tony Gonzalez because his all pros and his numbers are just outrageous. But I think at his peak, Kelsey was ultimately better, and obviously he deserves to be here.
Yeah, a lot of thoughts on Traus Kelsey. First of all, I think because of the comparison to Gronk and because of who he is a disappointing career his career, we forget he was an okay blocker. He wasn't like he was never as dominant as Gronk, and that is a huge part of the argument for Gronk if one wants to make that argument, but he wasn't bad, I just I want to throw that out there. He still isn't
actually that bad. He just gets used differently, And a lot of the way he gets used has to do with the fact that he has not been surrounded by world beaters outside of Tyreek Hill. I think that also bears mentioning this offense has been run through, has run through Travis Kelcey at so many points in so many big games, and certainly since Tyreek Hill left since then, and that's not something you see very often. A lot of his usage is because of that. It's born out
of necessity. I would also argue, and this is something I would say is a little bit is if you weren't to make a case for him over Gronk, he to me, Greg is the single best zone coverage beater maybe of our lifetime. Maybe that's a little bit too rich. We think about some of the receivers, but certainly amongst tight.
Ends, no question amongst tight ends. And you're right, I would have to think about that list. And that's why he was a tough one for me of where to put him, Like is he high enough? He's one of only two tight ends on this list. I don't mind spoiling like that is his trademark. And you saying how his usage went up, like his best season was twenty twenty, that that cursed season with no crowds or anything, that
he was just going crazy. He actually got a few Offensive Player of the Year votes that that was one metric, Like was he ever at the super top where he's winning those sorts of awards, not so much, but that year, you know, fourteen hundred yards, like over one hundred catches and just totally dominant. And to me, he's had a better career than Antonio Gates.
He's the key player other.
Than Patrick Mahomes in you know, the best dynasty that we've seen other than the Patriots dynasty, not just the last twenty five years, but one of them in the history of the NFL. And the thing that's crazy that you pointed out, Mina is he's actually gotten better as he's lost juice. One of the fun things I've gotten to do with this exercise. I just go back watch some old tape or watch some old highlights, and you know, he's ripping off eighty yard screen passes in twenty seventeen,
twenty eighteen. You're like, oh, yeah, Travis Kelcey used to have so much juice. And yet because he has a ridiculous mind meld, maybe the best since Montana to Jerry Rice, as Mahomes to Kelsey, he's actually gotten better as he's gotten older.
I do like that, Like, you can't really punish eitherism for the quarterback because they both played with like the two greatest quarterbacks, right, So yeah, it's not like, well,
Travis Kelsey got to play with Patrick Mahobes. I swear to God, I'm not gonna only talk about Trales Kelsey do the lens of Ropper Gronkowski, but Gronk got to play with But I think right now he is in that phase, the one last job phase of his career where all they need is for him to be big in huge moments in certain games, the same way that Gronk was in the infamous RAM super Bowl victory on that one last drive. Yeah, I think with Kelsey, like,
I absolutely think he belongs on Listless. Yes, let's start there, because it's just like the TI, he really marries all of it, longevity, peaks, playoff, accomplishments, big.
Games, random reality shows.
That's the other thing is like watching those clip like because he's played for so long at this point and as his persona has evolved so much, it's kind of like his girlfriend's eras, like we do have Travis Kelce's. Yeah, that's that, by the way, is all I know about Ty.
I've reached the limits of the slip jokes. That I can make, but like, there have been points in his career where he's been used in different plays where he's where he's played different roles in that offense, where he has sounded different he talks, and it's like he to me, like, you really can't tell the story of the NFL over the last ten years without him. Yeah, I just spectacular football player.
That It was part of my reasoning. Not only that he was on a lot of these guys were going to be on. Who were the most painful to leave off? When I had him off first, I was like, oh, that's too painful and Chiefs fans are going to want to hear this, But there were there were a lot of like Chiefs that were right. I thought about Chris Jones, I thought about Tony Gonzalez.
They were among the first.
People to be left offices that I was like, it would be too painful to leave Kelsey, who, yes, not only entertain millions, including the namesake of the studio, Chris Westling and Lakeisha Westling were hardcore fans of Catching Kelsey at the time, the only two people I know that
were watching every single episode. But yes, like authored so many moments that I can remember, let's actually look back because one thing I found looking through like his greatest plays in his greatest games, so many of them came against the Chargers. It's just outrageous that I just want to play one of them.
Get all number three on the all time Chiefs touchdown catch list. Would one to night now just one catch shay otis Taylor. Here is Kelsey, still going, still going, Kelsey, good night, touchdown Chiefs.
Winning the thing I remembered more, not that I should have, but he has so many good after the catch plays where he just puts that foot in the dirt and gets everyone to go one way, and you don't think of him like that.
And half of them are against the Chargers.
I mean, he has two game winning touchdowns against the Chargers. He has one hundred and ninety yard game against the Chargers. I believe that that was part of that, Like he so many of them was just like breaking the rest of the AFC's hearts, especially the Charger.
It's funny because I feel like Derwin James on the Chargers has been thought of as one of the dudes you can count on to try to handle Travis Kelsey. I think that's the other thing that's so unique about him. Whenever we've talked about the Chiefs over the last few years is certainly when during the Tyree Kill era, it was a lot about how you handle that level of
speed and it was game tilting. But I know as an analyst, every time I've talked about this team and playing them and the defenses, it always starts with, Okay, who's on Kelsey? What is your game plan? What is your approach to him? Are you comfortable playing zone coverage? The question you ask always about the Chiefs, right like do you have the capability to man up this team?
And if you do, who's on Kelsey? Like I just I think that's a when I think about like great players and whether or not they qualify for a list like this. From my not to be solipsistic perspective, I think through, Okay, when I'm thinking about this team and their games, this is the first person I think of, how do you stop them? And he could make that same argument for Chris Jones, by the way, who I do think was probably a tough cut.
It was he was an extremely tough cut, And like I said, there's a lot of Hall of Famers not on this list, So It's tough to make those cuts, but I'm glad Kelsey is on. I'm also glad I have our next guy.
Number twenty four, Terrell Owens.
Terrel Owens down the sideline, getting the first down and continuing richeld move backing sow Owens Loo's a big run all the.
Way under the XIL for the forty nine touchdown.
Another seventy five yard play, this time terror Owards.
Doing it after the catch, throw it and doing see you off the play.
Rolling right the touchdown, ter Olands.
Theren's are going right to the center of the stadium.
Rug to the Dallas Cowboys all going yah, see it touchdowns again.
Heading from midfield there he goes.
He's there's gonna be a penalty on George t because he's gonna clock them, so ow it's just gonna show him up again.
And Tik just said, the heck with it. This game's over anyway. I'm just gonna take a cheap shot at him. We are wrapping.
Yeah, that little celebration ofterrell Owens with him sleeping on the football. He could make this list just off the celebrations. You kind of forget how many of them were so iconic. Uh, you got the popcorn eating the popcorn. You have the Sharpie signing the ball, you have the Seahawks, you have the pomp Poms grabbing and doing the pomp Pom dance.
You have him, of course doing.
Holding his arms up to the sky at the old Texas Stadium. It's it's just amazing and five first team All pros kind of what you imagine Mina when you think of at least back in the day, there's not as many of these guys of like, what would you want your number one to look like? Six three, two hundred and twenty five pounds and just fast as hell.
I went down a rabbit hole watching too highlights when I saw he was on your list, And one of the highlights was just every catch he made against the Chicago Bears in the record breaking game that I think was Brandon Brushall Brooke that if I remember, yeah catches, yeah, and it's it's a great mix of just you know, slants and hitches, but then also some couple deep balls as well, and you really get a full sense of
like his unbelievable skill set, which really was. I mean, he was good a lot of things, but at that size, the speed the breakaway speed. First of all, he was really physical, really strong, good contested catch guy. Some of his most famous catches are like that. But then like the breakaway speed and movement abilities he had at his size were so rare, it's like you're like you put it.
I mean there's another. I'm sure Calvia Johnson's going to come later, but but it does feel like he was like built in a lob to be a true X.
Yeah, a little different, like better after the catch even than Calvin Johnson, and but still had like the mobility. And I know he had some drops certainly along the way and wasn't like as great a separator, say as Antonio Brown, who was a tough cut from this list ultimately because I just just on the field watching him.
He was among the very best I ever saw.
But he's a guy who, till the end of his career was just a big play machine. He averaged fourteen point eight yards per catch for his whole career that like never fell off. He's third all time in receiving yards. He was on the All Decade team. He was timed very well for this list his breakout season, and that was part of it. I did not consider any nineteen nineties seasons. So even if you started in the nineties, like a Randy Moss for instance, that wasn't part of
the equation. And his breakout season to was two thousand and five first team All Pros And man, he didn't have like a ton of playoff moments. He had he had to catch too, certainly with the forty nine ers
when he was young in his career. But you remember that performance he had against the Eagles where Belichick has said many times how he assumed to is not going to be in that game or not gonna look like to because he's coming off of a broken leg, and he goes nine for one twenty two and almost kind of carries them to a Super Bowl win all by himself while he was a member of the Eagles.
The was the finger game before that was after that, right when he had the plate in his finger and he came back and played. And that's the other thing we got to talk about with him. Yeah, this is the unbelievable toughness, which and it's the other thing about him, like just like the perfect I talk about him being like the perfect wide receiver, lab built ride receiver. The personality is like when people think about wide receivers better or worse, and I say better for better or worse
because you know, was he always the best teammate? No, did he rebul the wrong way? Sure, but holy smokes, his dude was tough and was a competitor. I mean, like some of the injuries that he overcame to play, I feel like, maybe more so than he has some of the most iconic coming off in injury games of any player in NFL history. And it is funny to me that like he contained multitudes in that way, right, Like we think of this like diva personality, but then
he was tough as nails. I don't know, he was just kind of an interesting mix of contradictions.
Yes, let's let's listen just to a little cut up we have of some t o trashtock.
I know you don't know me to sound put them a sound in a way because I love me.
Tell me I.
Can hit me.
Oh, y'all won't do what you can stuff.
He is an all time NFL Films sound effects guy, like an all time NFL miked up guy. There's a clip on YouTube from NFL Films with just thirteen minutes of him on miked up and it's so good. And one thing you do get from it is you're reminded, like he was a team captain more than a few times in his career, he was known as like one of the if not the hardest workers on his team. He learned literally from Jerry Rice, and he talks about that, not only about how to work, but how to look
good on the field. He talks about that a lot, and you just kind of think about him running over all these guys and running past him, and it's just like, that's what you want on your team. And yes, it ended up sour at the end in a few places, you know, in Dallas and San Francisco, like when it
went bad, it went bad. But the vast majority of those years, especially the first couple of years in each spot, even into Cincinnati at the end of his career, when he's with Ocho Sinkle, he's still putting up a thousand yards like he gave you everything he had. And so that was why I didn't want to knock him too badly for all that.
Well speaking, I mean, I mean, I have to bet we run an NFL podcast, but I coverring this up. He's not in the NFL one hundred. Did you know that? I did not know that he was not, So then I fell did the one hundred greatest Players of all time? I think they did it a few years ago, five years ago, and uh uh, let's see why. Let me find the headline. He called it despicable and he was
left off, and like, I'm on his side. I mean, come on, dude, he's third old time and receiving yards, touchdown catches top ten and it's not just a long He's not just a compiler, dominant seasons, one hundred yard games. It's insane that he wasn't on that list. I'm just gonna say, it's crazy.
Receivers the toughest position.
So I think making this list okay when you're just thinking about the last twenty five years in no particular order. Julio Jones like is he like his peak was just absolutely outrageous. Antonio Brown, he used to get into an argument that at his very peak, I don't know if anyone was any better. These are guys that are not on the list. Larry Fitzgerald, like I mentioned, who's just stacked up numbers like not on the list.
It was very hard to separate wide receivers.
But ultimately, yeah, the combination for me of just he was a little bit uncoverable because even though he had those drops at times, he was such a good contested catch guy that like, even if you could cover my Revis had some good battles with him later in his career, even if you could cover him, like it didn't really matter if he was playing his best.
The Catch Tube being the perfect example of that. I remember growing up when I first got access to like YouTube, just watching that over and over and trying to like understand it. It haven't right because it just doesn't just like what wait the ball, Like how is this getting through? And how is he winning for it? And yeah, it was just yeah, remarkable. I was asking just one quick aside. I was while I was watching Highlights, I was texting
a little bit with you. Mentioned Nate Tice and Danny about who is the closest to him in this current generation, and the consensus was AJ Brown is the player who's most similar to t O, which I think is accurate.
I think that's right, especially this version of AJ Brown, like where he is right now, where we just did a Receivers episode and we had him third overall because I think he's such a complete receiver. I think Too also warmed up to that spot too, as you mentioned, like the catch Too, that was his big breakout in San Francisco. Like, it's funny hearing them talk about him early in his career, like he didn't speak, he was very afraid to talk to the media. It was like
this shy guy until he wasn't. But yeah, Marvin Harrison was another guy. Tyreek Kill was another guy that got cut off this list. Marvin Harrison somewhat got cut off from the ninety two thousand thing. But it's crazy how hard it was to make it. So it just shows you what kind of career Too had. Let's take a quick break and we will be back with the next guy on the list. Back on NFL Daily Best twenty
five players of the last twenty five years. And yeah, as we go through some of these players, I will be mentioning who didn't get off the list.
I almost feel bad not saying it.
It's like Justin Jefferson and Jamar Chase, they are building up that resume, but they're getting cut off basically because they haven't been in the NFL long enough.
Unlike our next.
Guy, Number twenty three, TJ WAT.
Sixty yards of offense for the Falcons since halftime Man.
Cousins is sacked.
Guess who TJ WAT put in an exclamation on this one.
Big rush Hey kJ On has that suck.
Unbelievable. TJ W comes around and.
Makes a sack.
Favorite pass rushler to watch. I mean, I have to say, TJ.
What shoe string sick?
From the master himself.
TJ continues to run rough shot woop, Newton gets hit, ball is out. That's it in trouble periods.
TJ rock.
He is now the Steelers franchise all time leader in that category.
The single most surprising player to make this list for me in terms of I did not expect to be putting him on when I started the list. He was not even that close until I really started thinking about the resume. Defensive Player of the Year Top four in the voting four straight years, the last four years, four all pros. The most sacks since he's entered the league, the most forced fumbles by far since he's entered the league, the most tackles for loss since he's entered the league,
the most sacks in his first eight seasons. Other than Reggie White and DeMarcus where single season sack record led the league in sacks three times, and I just thought about, like, what are we talking about here? I'm talking about players at the very top of their game. Even though I feel a little lower than consensus on TJ. Watt in general, I realize, like, not only is he a first ballot Hall of Famer, but he deserves to make this list.
What do you think?
Yeah, it kind of sneaks up on you how dominant the numbers are. And we know, oh well, whenever we do like we're the best three pass rushers in the NFL, it's always TG Watt, Mouse Garrett and Blank Michael Parsons right now, right, But I think you don't think of him as like historically dominant until you look at what you just described, the idea of that he has led the NFL three times in sacks, twice enforced fumbles, that
he's reached such insane sack totals. It's kind of one those things where you really have to take a step back and realize how incredibly dominant he's been, which is I think I'll throw something out. Do you feel like maybe not he's that he's overlooked, But it seems so unbelievable. JJ Watt could have a brother just right, like the JJ Watt who his peaks were so high that his brother came in and you were and you were like, uh, you know, it's JJ Wat's brother. That he became what
he came seems so unlikely. Greg, maybe that plays into it a little bit.
I think so. I mean, you know, who agrees with you the entire NFL?
How did this guy go thirtieth in the draft, Because for so many years all anyone said about JJ Watt was.
Like, how did he fall so far in the draft?
I know he was like he's a you know, walk on and he had a different sort of career. He's like a late bloomer at Wisconsin. But it's like he's two ninety five and the biggest, freakiest athlete with like the best motor you've ever seen, and then had you know, a first ballot Hall of Fame season. Obviously he is going to be on this list coming up. And then the exact same thing happened mean with d J Watt.
Just knowing like what happened with JJ and somehow that it's like in them they we used the phrase like they're built different. Like, so Watts apparently really are built different. How did TJ. Watt get to thirtieth and then be this big of a seal for the Steelers of all teams?
Yeah, I mean I guess, you know, genetics and also just work ethic and technique. I mean, that's the thing about TJ. Watt similar to JJ. But to focus on TJ for a second, just such a complete player. I think that's if you know, if I had to summarize him in one word, it would be complete. He's so
good at everything. He's so good. Obviously, he is very technically refined and fun to watch pass rusher, and that is something he kind of has only gotten better at over time as he's you know, added more to his repertoire. He wins with speed, he wins with power. He wins with speed to power. He's got great inside moves, like he's just really really really smart. He's seen it all and then he finishes, which is how you get the
high sack totals. But he's also a fantastic run defender that matters if we're talking about like who are the greatest of their generation. He's good in coverage, he's a good moments coverage, he's read the quarterback, and he's just he's just really really complete Greg. And I think when you if you were able to hit that level, some of it is nurture. Not to say that j Watt and TG Wat's mom is over this, but like, clearly these guys love ball and love studying ball, and that has factored in.
They've got that dog at him and they're always you're always looking for intangibles, and it's tough to really evaluate that. But I really do think like the fact that he was jj Watt's brothers should have gotten him drafted higher because because there is clearly something about how you can improve at the NFL level that that they haven't helped to master.
And yeah, it is. It is the big plays.
It is the knack over and over and over to have game winning plays like it. Once it happens like a few times, you're almost like, is this a little fluky that he's getting all these force fumble Like, like I said, he leads the NFL and forced fumbles, Uh, since he entered the league. Is it a little fluky that like his best plays keep coming at the end
of these games. It's like at a certain point you have to just accept like, no, that that is not fluky, just just you know, thinking a few He had a game against the Ravens where he called game on Lamar Jackson on a fourth down sack. He had the game last year against the Falcons where he essentially called game against then one. Right, Yeah, he essentially called game on our boy Gino Smith in that Sunday night.
I remember that.
Yeah, he has like a four sack game, you know, he he's just had like when he goes big, he goes so big and at the biggest moments, And I do think that's that's how you get defined as like one of the greatest of the greats.
Yeah, I feel like anyone on this list has to have taken over a game or taken a game games, right, but bo, you know, both the all of the guys we've talked about thus far, you would put in that category. And with a pass rusher, that's like a really high bar because it doesn't happen that often. And there's probably like three or four guys in the league right now where you can say I can point to a few times where that's happened, And yeah, certainly it's been TJ.
Wild.
There's there's something cool too about that he is like the ed Rusher of the Pittsburgh Steelers, that he's continuing that you know, tradition for that team.
But he's the next and the greatest.
And the reason why he wasn't high on my list at first is I think I was a little biased towards the players.
That are in the middle of their prime.
I mentioned before that like Justin Jefferson and Chase just felt like just sure, if they had one or two more years, like they really might make it. But seeing you know, Wat's been in the league by now eight years, and so why I started comparing them and you compare his resume and here's some other guys. I'm just curious your thoughts, like like a Kaleis Campbell, for instance, who was All Proof Football Reference All twenty tens team, who had a second place at a Defensive Player of the Year.
Jared Allen who's in the Hall of Fame.
Jason Taylor, who you know was a second team All two thousands is in the Hall of Fame. But I don't think, actually, when I looked at it, that his highest of highs were as high as t J.
Watt.
Dwight Freeney was probably my toughest omission where his peak maybe wasn't quite as long, but he was such a good player. But those guys, like, none of them had a defensive player of the year like top four type of run that that TJ.
Watt had.
Yeah, I think you can probably. I mean TJ. Wat's been like top one to three for.
Four years.
Yeah, at least.
In some other years as well, where he wasn't that. Yeah.
Yeah, none of the guys you mentioned I would put over him, So I think that's fair. I am curious now to see how high that another guy who i'd talked, well, yeah, I don't want to. I don't want you to spoiler.
Oh it's okay, it's good. It's a good tease for for the rest of us. Speaking of let's talk about a player that I know you will enjoy discussing number.
Twenty two, Walter Jones.
Let's be anything on the way head with me. I want you to come in, you know, and try to attack him. It's an honor to join Steve Larger at quarter as Kennedy, I'm going to hear to rush up.
A feeling that tell me what w.
Christer Jones get the crown one at.
The third player to represent the Sea.
Yak fronchise, He's steal the Bess.
Walton is still to Bess and the twelfth man.
What a great push by that left side of the Sea Yawks offensive line.
Oh, Walter Jones, big Walt, he could be even higher on the list, Mina, but I wanted to hear you talk about your Seahawks. I mean, you were very young when Walter Jones was at his speaking yeah, for our for our audio listeners.
For instance.
If you're young, you heard that clip, h It was DeMarcus Ware asking tell me where Walter Jones is, so that there's like game recognized game, A Hall of Fame player, just absolutely fearful.
And worried about what Walter Jones was gonna do.
I think I was drafted when I was in maybe fifth or sixth grade, so it wasn't that young. Well, but then I would say he peaked for so long, so it was, you know, he My point is that I was in high school when he was great. I was the beginning of college. He was still. I mean, he hit something very rare. Although I guess while and Kelsey. Interesting continuity here, one player, one team that great, you're certainly more likely to stay on one team to where
to even begin. I was waiting for the block. It doesn't have a cool nickname, but the two thousand and five NFC Championship game.
Talk about it. Play it, we got it, but you could talk over it, So tell us about.
It a little bit.
It's against the Panthers NFC Championship two thousand and five.
I would contend, Yeah, there we go. Oh my god, Mike Rucker rip. That man had a family one of the single most dominant run blocks by left tackle in the history of the sport right there, and he's taken him.
For a ride and he said as much too. He I saw an interview with him that he did. And that's a play going to the weak side where yeah, the defense man is on his outside shoulder, so he has to get to the inside and block a two hundred and ninety pounds man and he does it twenty five yards down the field and it's part of one of the best his feet. Sorry to no, please please go on about what Big Waltz meant to you?
Yeah, that play, so again, like if you what what was so remarkable about this and maybe this is if we're talking about Walter Jones and what made him great, because he was really good at everything. He's a man that size shouldn't have feet that moved that quick, and you can really see that on that play. Like sometimes you know, when a guy's like block, it's just like he's it's just power and he's just nasty and he's just kind of like a snowplow, you know, moving the
guy along. That's not what Walter Jones looked like. Like his feet looked like a tight end or something out there. It makes no sense. And that was his calling card, Greg. It was he was so light on his feet and so unbelievably athletic at his size. I think he ran like a four six forty famously. I think he played a little tight end in college or maybe the beginning
of college or something, so he had that background. But it was just very rare and very unusual, and it wasn't even I mean, he was an unbelievable past protector. He just never seemed to get taken by surprise or rattled again. A lot of that had to do with the lightness of his feet, you know, I'm sure you guys have some stats on this. He gave up so few sacks and so little pressure over the course of so many years, it was unbelievable.
Yeah, so's it's fifty seven hundred plays in his career, only twenty three sacks in that entire time, and nine holding penalties in that entire time. Four first team All Pros, two second teams. He is the only player that was on the Hall of Fames and Pro Football References first team for the All two thousands, So I thought that was interesting. He's the only one from this era that did make that NFL one hundred list, which which did influence me. It was tough to pick him over Orlando Pace.
Part of it was the way that Jones's career worked out.
You mentioned his longevity.
Pace was incredible at the start of his career, like right off the jump in like ninety seven through ninety nine, and Jones was still peeking late into his career. So all those All pros that I mentioned are actually in the two thousands. He actually made it all the way Mina to the PFF era and so these are like the last three years of his career, and he was the highest rated tackle in pass protection in those three years for PFF, and those are the final three years of his career.
That's his mid thirties. So I know, like, there's no perfect way to mention here.
To evaluate offensive line, especially twenty years later. But when you have like the numbers like that, and then you have all of the people that were around at the same time saying it, I found like a handful of players that were like, that's not just the best tackle, that's the best football player alive right now, or that's the best football player I've ever seen. And enough of those I was just like, well, he has to be on the list, and he could be higher if I wanted.
Who knows with offensive linemen.
Pace was the same draft, right he was.
He was taken first and Jones yeah, went later.
He was well no, But crazily enough, he was the Seahawks' second pick in that draft because they took Sean Springs fourth. Yeah, and then they traded up with the Bucks for Walter, which was just insane and a little Seahawks lowreer. A lot of that had to do with because that was when all Alan took over the team. This was before the rookie contract era. And Paul Allen was rich enough
to afford to for his around rookies. Like a weird quirk of NFL history where he gave the green light to do it, because that was what I think right after the sale.
Or great, great call, because I was wondering, like I was looking at his contracts and stuff. It's just like those first round contracts at the time. They were like seven years long, but they were they were huge for the time.
But you're absolutely right. They tried to trade up with the Jets.
They thought they had to deal with the Jets at six in the end, the Jets said no, like when they were on the clock. But Bill Parcell's got a small assist apparently said hey, we were talking trade with the Bucks. I don't think they're going to want to sit there. You should call the Bucks. They call the Bucks and they make history taking Walter Jones.
The contracts too, are another funny part of Walter Jones's career. Who was the torreous for just not showing up to camp again. This is all that you learn a lot about NFL contract and CBA history through just reading about Walter Jones. But every year he would just hold out and he would train on his own, pushing like SUVs up them and then just show up seth Wickershiam did a great story about a USP in the magazine like
twenty years ago. By the way, Uh anyways, he I feel like Cortez Kennedy before him, maybe was the last great Seahawks, but he really defined Seahawks football for an extraordinarily long amount of time.
Yeah.
I loved hearing some old clips I found at like John Madden talking about him and to be as recognized as he was in like a pre internet era essentially as just that dude, you have to just be that good. And I did want to give a shout out to, you know, his line mate Steve Hutchinson, who wasn't always there, but once they got him in the trade that is almost unquestionably the best left side of an offensive line
in NFL history. I started covering the NFL for Roadal World in three and I would say that Seahawks offensive line not that people talk about all time great offensive lines, but maybe they get forgotten a little bit to me, because to me, they would be right near the top with the Cowboys of the mid twenty tens of the best offensive lines you know that I've you know, had a privilege to cover and having Jones and Hutchinson next to each other for a chunk of their primes is pretty crazy.
We've been punished for it with twenty years in battle place since then.
That's so true.
So yeah, shout out to Steve Fudgets it did not make the list, but had to get Jones on there. Ravens fans, if you're curious, Jonathan Ogden, you know only five years of his prime were in the two thousands, so he like we missed a lot of the very best of his career some other really great tackles over the years. Lane Johnson did not make it for me. Jason Peters did not make it for me. Tyron Smith, who man, it's close at his very very best is
it's hard to like ar you against him. But we can only have so many offensive linemen.
We have a handful. We have a few more to go.
Let's go to our next guy and our last guy will talk about with you.
Mina number twenty one, Lamar Jackson, it's a second down and free Jackson takes it himself.
Look at him back and forth. Oh it broke his ankles. Now he's gotten that turage. Damn, he's got a touchdown. He is, who deny? Who want to play? Forty seven yard touchdown run by the magical quarterback Lamar Jackson.
Wow, he's like Kobe Bryant. How you can't necessarily stop Kobe Bryan. Kobe Bryant's gonna get his at some point And that was a great analogy. Lamar's gonna get his at some point. And we know that, and everybody knows that.
Everybody knows that buyers to the anz up touchdown on.
That tun Now I mingle with Vet, but he was Rema Eyes, so I'm right.
I'll say, all right, then I had to be twenty.
Lamar Jackson makes a list at twenty one, two MVPs and a first team All Pro in the year twenty twenty four, where he didn't win MVP but probably his best season had led the yards per carry in terms of the entire NFL four different time, third all time if you're into quarterback rating, by the way, like if you're just one of those old school people that like quarterback rating and wins, I know wins are not a quarterback stat mina, but he's third all time in like
winning percentage in quarterback fascorating Yeah, kdr, Yeah, it's funny, yes, passerating. It's funny to me that like he dominates those like old school traditional stats too, so there's no way to come at him.
The passerrating one is the one that blew my mind this season because he came close to the Rogers passer rating record, and passer rating, for those who don't know, doesn't take into an account quarterback rushing, which is why it's kind of a useless stat to be honest, because quarterback rushing is such a big part of the modern gamell QPR accounts for a point whatever we have to get to it, but anyway, point is like the quarterback
who coming into this league. I don't want to overplay the Bill Poleon thing, but it was questioned by everybody whether or not he could be a pocket passer now whether they just switch positions. Just came close to breaking the Pesser rating record, Like I cannot stress enough. And I was as much of a Lamar Jackson fan as anyone in that draft Dominice, and I wrote long article about him like staking our you know, planting our flag.
I did not think he would be this good. It is unbelievable what he has accomplished and he's only twenty eight.
Yeah, there's no way to say about really any prospect coming in that year. He is going to be an inner circle all time great and that's what he is. And that's what I had to think about with this exercise, Like I was like, has he played long enough in the NFL?
It's been seven years?
Has he done enough to get on this list over some really great quarterbacks? Because I didn't want to make this just like an all quarterbacks list. Initially I had him on like a little higher than I had him completely off. And I settled here and just decided, like, especially of this generation. You know Mahomes is coming up spoiler alert, but of this generation, he literally was the best player in the league either three times or if you want to split it, this last year, like two
and a half times. And he's the best running quarterback ever that like goes without saying not just that he had the best season of all time in terms of rushing yards, but leading all the NFL including the running backs and yards per carry four times, Like to me, is so crazy, But what you realize pretty quickly, and I think about that week one game actually in his first full season starting, it was twenty eighteen, right or twenty nineteen, sorry, against Miami, and that game where he
is just throwing bombs down the field and he is so good throwing over the middle of the field, and that is the game where you kind of realize, oh, his legs are going to set up so much with this passing and he is such a good passer. And that season, you know, his first full season as a starter, he wins the MVP.
Yeah.
I think he's also a guy where the stats, as unbelievably impressive as they are, and you know, we just discussed all of them, still don't capture what he does to defenses and what he does on a football field and the way he I would say, more than any other player I've watched, Clee Michael Vick. He has more gravity as a dual threat, and I love watching the
Ravens on tape for this reason. I love the way he pulls defenses on a string still and the opportunities that creates for the run game and other players is just unparalleled. He is also just the most electric like dynamic runner, you know, I mean just his style, the fact that he never appears to be moving at full speed.
Is crazy. And then, oh, by the way, he also has, by the way, become the most accurate passer in the NFL, because you know, I was always a believer in his passing ability and his football IQ and whatnot, but he was not the passor he is now earlier in his career. And that's another thing I really have loved about watching him and about his game. And this is the same would apply to Josh Allen. He's gotten so much better, Greg,
and he's twenty eight, twenty eight. I mean he's both him and Allen, by the way, not only have gotten better, but mentally, I would put up there with anyone in the league right now.
Right because when you think about that twenty eighteen season or twenty nineteen season, twenty eighteen, by the way, sort of underrated when he came in and immediately started winning games for them and was like an immediate sensation and helps get them to the playoffs and belonged right away. But he definitely needed to develop, and he did that offseason in terms of his passing, You're right that twenty nineteen season, his running was absolutely setting up his passing
and his passing was better than everyone realized. Hey led the league in passing touchdowns and QBR ESPNSQBR that year. But now the way he can manipulate defendant defenders, how he can anticipate, how he can throw over to the middle of the field. You have that part of it, and it's kind of like everyone who ever watched a running quarterback growing up, whether it was Randall Cunningham or Steve Young or even Dante Culpepper and just thought, like,
that's so cool. Like if one guy could put it all together, like at the highest level, wouldn't that be the coolest football ever? And that is Lamar Jackson. He's done it. He is that guy.
So you are taking into account playoff accomplishments putting this list together. How much are you dinging him for the fact that he's never been to a Super Bowl? So he's never won a conference championship game? I imagine you know none, I mean like Mahome. You said Mahomes is on the list, so it's not like there's anyone else in this regard.
But but.
You know, does that do you think there are people screaming, how can you put a guy this high? I'm just playing Devil's advocate here. Do you think that there are people at home saying, like, well, he's never even won a conference championship game, how can you put him this high on a top twenty high list.
I just think the best way to evaluate a quarterback is over the course of a regular season, and he's done that so many times that it tells me that he will have that playoff success at some point and that I'm not that worried about it, like we I saw it with Peyton Manning, who is one of the greatest individual success stories of all time, and it took a while for him to actually get it done in the playoffs, and it didn't change really who who I think about him and think of all the times just
because of the order it happened that, like Aaron Rodgers knocked on the door and didn't make it, you know, or Drew Brees after winning that Super Bowl the one time, like it took that long. So I don't want to have to wait till he's thirty one or thirty two to recognize Plus he's like he just he makes your jaw drop.
Let's actually look at one of my favorite Lamar Jackson place.
Justice Hill who's the best likely emotion, He buckles of my God, performs groups of them, doctrooms at home, pretends Hubbard how from a look a word and.
Cots on touchdown, cots on touchdown then likely.
Absolutely amazing.
How in the world did he keep it together and let him find the open receiver.
I could just do an entire show on Kevin Harlan calls of Lamar Jackson touchdowns. I've almost regretted not having Harlot on this episode just so I can hear him react to that. But we'll have them on some calls.
I love it. Next, not to really nerd out, but next gen jet stats does the you know, completion percentage, likelihood of throws and whether or not a quarterbacks he seeded those he's got to have the most like just preposterously low odds of completing passes, touchdowns, deep passes, and just pulling the rabbit out of his hat. Of any quarterback, I mean, Mahomes, I guess would.
Be above him.
Yes, I don't know, though, I mean they're close. They both have, you know, all the best quarterbacks in the league right now, by the way, can lay us to that. But Lamar, it feels like he has to lead in this guy moments like that.
That's worth something like we're talking about best, we're talking about greatest to me, this freaking guy, this guy he came to and Josh Allen. It took a little slightly later developing obviously came out a little later.
Like he ushered in this new generation.
It was we were a while between like great truly like all time quarterbacks. It was really like Andrew Luck was this one guy in the middle of this desert that we thought was gonna get there and then obviously retired early.
But it was.
Between these guys and we thought maybe that like the next great quarterback would would look like this, and he does. And I think his arm gets underrated. I mean you mentioned like the crazy plays. One play I watched, like watching this was a sixty two yard in the air like air yards opposite hash throw where.
Like he's at the eight and he hits.
I think it was the Sean Jackson of all people in stride. Like he does have a hose, which you kind of forget about with everything else.
Yeah, he is a really strong arm and he has a really unique arm talent. The game where him and Matthew Stafford just went toe to toe, not this year, but the previous year where they were just launching nukes all over the place. It was one of my favorit
football games the last few years. I remember watching that and being like, these guys have a lot of common because they both not only have strong arms, and they're not only preposterous and have like arm arrogance, but they also are doing like side army, Like Lamar side arms it a lot. He's throwing off of like crazy platforms. He's doing really really special things just with his arm. I just had I just interviewed Darius lagh and now
these in the AFC North. I asked him, are you more wary of playing Joe Burrow's Bengals or Lamar Jackson's Ravens. I thought he would say the Bengals because of Jamar Chasen t Higgins, right, but he was like, no, Lamar. And it wasn't a knock on Burrow, but he just said, there's just nothing more frustrating than having to defend defend two plays in one so often against the quarterback. And that's just what makes him special. It's like he gets
an extra play like it's crazy. I mean, what he's able to do.
For the first handful of years, and it was kind of back last year too. I thought the most unstoppable play in the league was when you know, they did you know, a play action or RPO and he pulls the ball and he just takes eight yards to the side, Like for four years the defense was essentially giving him seven to eight yards just running to the sidelines. There are so many runs throughout his career where he never
hits the ground. It's just him going out of bounds, him just like gliding out a bound.
Crazy. Yeah, the ability to avoid contact is I mean, knock I would is just the most unique runner that I don't know. It's crazy watching him run. It just makes no sense.
You're the best guest ever.
Because you even brought up like people yelling at me about the playoffs. That's I would have just like completely ignored it, which I which.
I know I shouldn't. I shouldn't because it was it take.
I'm certainly used to the playoffs.
It's a great point.
I think that the first couple of years he played tight and he was a young player then, but that's also like Mahomes came in and played his very best like immediately in the playoffs. The last couple of years, he's had great games in the playoffs, whether it's the divisional round or last year in the championship game, like doing everything he could, needing the drive and making it happen and playing well. So that that also really the last two years especially, and there were there's a couple
of year gap there. They weren't in the playoffs and he didn't play twenty one and twenty two. So the last couple of years also as part of the reason why I feel like he's he's over that hurdle, and I think he has played well in the playoffs. But yes, this is more for the regular season. Sorry to the Josh Allen fans out there, their guy is not going to be on this list. I mean, I think that's fair, right, It's fine.
Yeah, then.
Said you have such a bad spot.
You I know, I don't want to make a comment on this. I think that after Lamar, well, I don't know which how many.
Quarterbacks, there's five more. There's five more quarterbacks. And that's the thing, like I was thinking about Lamar, let's say versus a Drew Brees. Drew Brees is going to be on this list, of course. Yeah, and when I think about lamar At is very very peak and what he's already accomplished, you could argue, I think that's as high or higher even than a great player like Drew Brees.
So the highs are there. I had to not put my our guy, Philip Rivers on.
I thought about doing it just to help his Hall of Fame case, but I don't think I have that kind of way that it would really matter. Brett Favre was an interesting one, by the way, because he won his three MVPs in the in the nineties and then you realize, like in the two thousands he made like two first team All Pros and four second teams, Like he was an incredible player in that decade, even though like he was even better the one before.
Like you know, you got your guy Russ.
There's a lot of great quarterbacks that could have made this list, Matt Ryan, like, but you can't make it an all quarterbacks list. But I did want one of these these current guys, at least at the back end.
Yeah, I think you chose the right one. Non Mahome's division.
We're biased though, I mean you wrote the article back in the day. Check out Mina Chimes. Thank you so much, Mina. Of course, it's the Mina Chimes Show featuring Lenny and then the Big Time New Podcast If you were a discretion. I like that she's tackling pop culture with her friend David w Pod.
Check it out if you Right now, we're doing Love Island, so not everybody's watching Love Island, but subscribe. Keep your eye on the space even if you aren't. We're going to do more shows. We're going to do Love is Blind again, of course, and we also take recommendations love it.
Yeah. Yeah, I don't need to tell everyone to check out Mina.
Our next episode will be the second edition of NFL Daily's twenty five Players of the last twenty five years. We will be joined by NFL Networks National reporter Steve Weisch.
Looking forward to that one.