The Season with Peter Schrager: Author Jeff Pearlman on His New Book on Bo Jackson, the Colts Hire Jeff Saturday (?) as Interim HC, and the NFL Heads to Germany

weekend and now it's this morning. It was like in the forties, it was beautiful out and football weather. Dude. Yeah, and we're getting into it. I think the listeners who are fulling, like, all right, what do you mean You're in New York. You said you were gonna be in Munich. I'm gonna be in Munich. I'm going to Munich. Slight, hold up with me getting to Munich. I will be in Munich. That is the expectation. If I'm not in Munich and I'm missing Wednesday mornings Good Morning Football Show,

there's a story to be told. But as of right now, I'll be in Munich. And I will be getting there still before the Buccaneers and the Seahawks. And I could tell you talking to all my colleagues from the show who are there right now, Munich is loving the NFL and the atmosphere is incredible, and you know, we're gonna talk a bit about these games, the game that they're getting. But who would have thought that Seahawks Buccaneers would be like the game of the week going in to week ten.

But that's where we are, and the Buccaneers seem like they're on their bounce back, the Seahawks seem to be legit and Aaron, I feel like that's the game of the weekend. And I'm pretty honored to be going to Munich to set the stage and pretty fired up that the NFL network is going to be airing it. But that wasn't the biggest story for me this week. Should we get to the four downs? Yeah, let's go all right,

what's the first down? First down? So yesterday like football, huge but also the kind of the bigger story of the day. Frank Wright loses his job as the coach of the Colts, and Ersay comes out and names Jeff Saturday the head coach. Of the Colts, the interim head coach. Can you give me any insight on Saturday on this decision on the firing, Like what's happening here. Let's first get to some Jim ursay sound and I'll respond off of that, Aaron, why don't you que it up here?

We go. I'm glad he doesn't have any NFL experience. I'm glad he hasn't learned the fear that's in this league. That's because it's tough for a our coaches. They're afraid, they go to analytics and it gets difficult. I mean, he doesn't have all that, he doesn't have that fear, and there was no other candidate. We were fortunate that he was available. We've tried to hire Jeff a couple of times. We tried to hire him in twenty nineteen, is the offensive line coach, and we tried to hire

him again. You know, this year just didn't work out. You know, the timing didn't work out. So and I've spent a lot of time with Jeff over like where I have a few of the X players here, and it doesn't take long to figure out that he's got real leadership in him, you know, real special in that regard, and you know, for this aime game stretch and where we're at, we thought it was going to be a

really good fit force, all right. So that was Jim Ursay, the owner of the Indianapolis Colts, and that's Chris Ballard. There's a lot of dynamics here, and for the listeners,

let's get right into it. So Ballard is beloved by the media, the national media, and I think there's a an assumption that Chris Ballard has given this green light in this past by everyone in the Athletic did a big pole before the season started this season and it was like with all the different writers at the Athletic and it was why don't we rank the general managers? And now I don't work for the Athletic, I couldn't tell you who ran the poll whatever, but the results

came out. And if you don't think general managers around the league were taken aback when Chris Ballard, who doesn't have a ton of success in Indianapolis in January, doesn't have any Super Bowl rings, was voted as the number

one general manager, I think you'd be kidding yourself. The general managers, they attention to this stuff so like when Ballard's won and I was going through the list last night, I think Howie Rossman, who's won a Super Bowl, was like fourteen, and you know other guys who have a John Schneider was a little bit lower down. He's won Super Bowl with the Seahawks, has rebuilt that team twice. Yeah, people start talring. It's like, okay, well, what are the council,

what are they really all about? Well, they gave twenty million dollars this offseason to an offensive lineman who's not a left tackle, that's Nelson, and their offensive line is one of the worst offensive lines in the league right now. So he starts scratching your head and you say, okay, well, then is it the general manager. Well, okay, let's say it's not the general manager. Let's just give him a pass. That he's drafted some good players and that you know,

five quarterbacks in five years, all this stuff. Maybe it's the head coach. Well, first they fired Marcus Brady, who wasn't calling the plays and was the offensive coordinator. They fired him a week ago, and it was like, why is he the escapegoat? And then they fired Frank Reich yesterday, who, like I said has been given five quarterbacks of five years and is a beloved NFL head coach, and they go on the ire Jeff Saturday. There have been a lot of takes already and Twitter last night was a

free for all. And you know, also the timing, like there's somebody a night football game on. Do you really need to do the press conference during Monday night football? This is just classic, like Indianapolis Colts, We're gonna do what we do or say. He's gonna talk and we're all just gonna have to figure out what he's interpreted. We're trying to interpret what he's trying to say. I find it insulting to all the different coaches in that

Indianapolis locker room. I find it insulting to all the coaches who have, you know, uprooted their lives for twenty years, going spot to spot the spot to get that opportunity that at the end of the day, it was like, here's a guy who used to play for the team, the fans like him and know him, and I can plug him in and I know what I'm getting and I'm not gonna, you know, have any issues. It doesn't seem like it's the best thing for the Indianapolis coach

to win the final eight games. It certainly doesn't seem like he's got the best resume. You look atin that own building there. Gus Bradley has been an NFL head coach, John Fox has been an NFL head coach. Bubba and Trone is considered one of the best special teams coaches in the league, and an up and coming guy who's about forty years old and played in the NFL. All those guys would have been worthy candidates to just at

least hold the fort down and been the interim. They go with Jeff Saturday and like this note that, like, well we tried to hire him as our offensive line coach in twenty nineteen. All right, well he said no to me. A lot of patting on the back of

how good this franchise has been. And not only is it the ballard getting number one GM and an athletic poll that probably one percent of the listeners have heard, but like you know that banner that always gets crushed online for the Coals that it says they're like, you know, I think it was af AFC finalists at twenty fourteen.

They have a banner yesterday or says in the press conference, and he's like, since two thousand, we're in the upper quartile of the league and wins the upper quartile, like the top you know, top four and win since two thousand and then he's talking about, yeah, look, Frank Wright got fired. It's hard to win. Frank's a great coach,

he's a winner, and it's hard to win. And Michael Jordan missed a lot of shots, Like it was really hard to follow all this, And I would just say this, you hire Jeff Saturday, and I don't know, maybe Jeff gets a couple of wins and he fires the guys up, and then you could start a new and maybe have a higher draft pick. And everyone says it's fine. And I guess the fans are gonna give him a pass

because Jeff Saturday's a beloved cult Fine. I'm talking about the greater profession as a whole, though, Like if you can't look to John Fox and Gus Bradley and Bubba Ventron, or if you can't look to I would say Chuck Pogano was living in town, Chuck Regonno lives Indianapolis, does McAfee show every week, Like Chuck was a beloved coach there and knows how to be a a head coach. Hire Chuck Pogano for the final eight weeks to go and

hire the guy off the ESPN set. It seems like that's a very comfortable thing for the owner to do. It doesn't seem like it's the best for the franchise to win games, and it's certainly doesn't rally the other coaches in that building. Who, yeah, you know some of them, maybe Reggie Wayne knows Jeff Saturday, but like, I don't know, I'm like what they were recording this on a Tuesday morning. They still haven't announced who's calling any of the offensive

plays Sunday when they play the Raiders. I didn't love the decision, and I'm the first guy to say think outside the box. If you want to hire a Numbers wonk as your GM, great. If you want to hire John Lynch former player to broadcaster at your GM great. If you want to hire a Harvard guy who you know went to Morgan Stanley and did the you know,

our credit suite and be the Vikings GM great. This one is like backwards, like I'm just gonna hire an ex player who I know, who I trust and who I'm you know, comfortable with and that's gonna be the thing. And I didn't even get into the whole Rooney rule aspect of it, and he kind of dismissed it. And I'm not sure all the rules on interim stuff. But like,

I don't know Jeff Day center for the team. I start wondering, did they did they ask Peyton Manning first and a bit that serious, like Sean Payton asked that in the Manning cast and they was met with a laugh. But like, I'm sure they ran it by Peyton Manning. And then did they ask Andrew Luck to coach the team? These are not me being goofy and jokeye Aaron, I'd be surprised if the Colts suddenly are this, you know, cohesive unit and have a chance to it. I didn't

love the hire. I think or Say is a really philanthropic guy. I think his daughters are doing an incredible job in the mental health space. None of that matters when I'm talking about the actual hiring of a head coach. This one I thought was unfair to several people in the building. I think it's unfair to the players, and I also think it's unfair to several candidates who might be more worthy from the outside. So did I love it? No? I did not. All Right, second down rumors about Odell's

return are heating up. The latest team to be to have buzz around a partnership with O'Dell is Parker Shallice Cowboys. What do you think about that? I think there's a law the juice to it. And when my colleagues Mike Garafolo and Tom Pella Sero say it's not just throwing something at the wall, I think he's they're saying it because they've got some insight. Look, here's what I heard after the trade deadline. And you know, half the things I say on Good Morning Football are what I know.

The other half I keep in my back pocket because it doesn't need to be reported. And one of them was that the Cowboys were very aggressive on the Brandon Cook's front right before the deadline. I don't know if gallops knee is what it should be. I don't know if gallops all the way back. And I think if they're looking to make a run, they knew that they needed either a deep threat or another threat. I think O'Dell and the Cowboys makes perfect sense. They're right in

the thick of it. He doesn't want to go to a loser. He wants to go to a winner. And I think to go to America's team Odell Beckham and Jerry Jones. That's like a perfect symmetry. I will say this, though, it took him a while last year when he came back from the knee before he got going really till the Ravens game, which was kind of the end of December, maybe week sixteen, weeks seventeen, and then he was great

in the playoffs. He helped them in a lot of ways, and then of course tears his knee up after having one of the best first quarters you'll ever in a Super Bowl, and he was on his way to being Super Bowl MVP. I'm watching right now Chris Godwin being covered by linebackers on the outside and struggling to get open. I'm watching the aforementioned Michael Gallup struggling to get back like this thought that hey and ACLS and ACL and we're good to go, and these guys are gonna be fine.

I don't know if O'Dell is gonna come right on the field no matter where he plays for, it's gonna make an immediate impact. So this to me, whatever team is hiring Odell or signing O'Dell hiring like he's interviewing for jobs. But whether it be Buffalo, whether it be Dallas, whether it be the Packers throwing some hail Mary and saying, hey, come with us and save our season. I don't think he's gonna be Odell the one that you expect him

to be till at least December. And I know he's training right now, but I don't see this being hey, hey signed him in November and then he just jumps in right away. I think last year it took him a couple of weeks to get going. And I look at the guys right now who are coming off major injuries that everyone is expected to be back to themselves. Godwin's not himself, Gallops not himself. I don't know if Odell is going to be himself. So Cowboys makes a

ton of sense. I'd love to see it. I think it would be cool to see Odell and the and the star in his sulmet and give the Eagles a real run for it. But I would be cautious on expecting Odell to be an instant action right out of the gates. Yeah, all right, third down. We talked about it earlier. Munich game Bucks, Seahawks, Can you give me a little preview? What are we checking from this? I mean, this has got juiced right now. This is a game that has juice and the Seahawks team I love, like

I'm falling in love with the Seahawks team. We've done. Gino Smith on the show last week, I said he should be in the MVP conversation. What do they do? They he throws a pick six last week against Arizona, You're like, all right, here's where the other shoe's gonna drop. There on the road. They're gonna lose. And then Gino finds a way to just get it going, hitting his guys, you know, Metcalflockett, and then of course, you know Kenneth

Walker does the rest. But I've said it, this might be the single greatest rookie class that this league has ever seen. I'm not being crazy here, and I know there's been rookie classes that include I think Derek Brooks and weren't Sapper in the same rookie class. I think Jonathan Ogden within the same rookie class as Ray Lewis. Those are first round picks. I'm talking depth. I'm talking

about contributors. Historically, the O five Saints is very often looked at as that with like Marcus Colston and Reggie Bush and Zach Strieff, and they had a few other guys in that class that has looked at as one of the best rookie classes. And I think the seventy something Steelers had multiple Hall of Famers, whether it be Ham or Lambert or some combination of that. With lynd Swan. That's offline. I'm talking about eight starters guys at play. I mean, you look at this thing, it's two starting

offensive tackles. The stat that was given on Fox was that I think it's the first time in the Super Bowl era that you've had two rookie offensive tackles start the first eight games of the season. That's Abe Lucas third round pick, and that's Charles Cross, a first round pick. And that's in an era where they say, you know, left tackles are impossible to find in the draft, right tackles are impossible. Fine, you got to move them from

the inside to the outside. It's very rare you get a rookie starter at either position, then got him Kenneth Walkers on his way to the offensive rookie the year. It's either him or Damian Pierce, and I don't think it's it's gonna be Damian Pierce in the nksy place for the Houston Texans and the Seattle Seahawks are having this season. You've got the two defensive backs and Woolen and Kobe Bryant who we Brian had another pick, guys awesome. And then they've got this boy a Mafe who's the

pass rusher and he's tremendous. Right there, You've got six starters out of a draft class that, all honesty, they weren't supposed to be great. This was a team that you know, why didn't you draft a quarterback with the ninth overall pick, Why did you take a quarterback in the second round, the third round? All this stuff. No, they just got guys. They got players. And what I love about it, and I mentioned it earlier, we're talking about Chris Baller, John Schneider and Pete Carroll. This is

the second time they're doing this. So ten years ago in one draft class, they got Russell Wilson, Bobby Wagner, Bruce Ervan, Robert Turbin, and they like helped rebuild on the fly by just having great draft picks that they didn't have to pay a ton of money. That's them right now. I guess what, they have two first round picks next year. They have two. They have the Broncos first round pick next year, and they have two second

round picks next year. So I'm excited to see this team in Munich and I think there's a lot of buzz around them. And then Tampa, they saved their season there in first place, right like they saved their season last week with the win. And Brady did the video this morning where he's you know, he's got he's got the swagger back and the whole thing and that big Embracey have with Byron left which that was important to me.

I thought Byron left Which is gonna get fired last week because of how bad it was against the Ravens, and you know, three and a half quarters into Sunday's game, I'm like, there's no way they bring back Leftwich for another week. There's just no way. There's no way this offense is acceptable. And then Brady saves their ass, brings him all the way down field, he's hugging left wish and he's like, we did this, we did this. I

think it's two really fun stories right now. Brady back against the wolf in the hundred of time in his career, and then this upstart Seahawks team that known had any expectations for, who were in first place at the playoffs for today, like they'd be a two or three seed and hosting a playoff game. So Aaron, I can't wait to be there. I can't wait to set the stage

for it. And I think the Seahawks get there Wednesday night and the Buccaneers get their Thursday, and I'm hoping I can link up with a couple of the coaches and a couple of the general managers. Maybe see Jason light and John Schneider. But maybe I'll have a little rendezvous in Munich with Tom Brady. It's not the biggest city. Nice all right, Fourth down? Who do you want to

give your shout out to you this week? I want to give my shout out to Josh Allen, who was a losing quarterback and had suffered an injury that we're monitoring day to day. But I want to give a shout out to Josh Allen because of the sound bite that he had afterwards that says so much about Josh Allen is what I wanted my quarterback. Yeah, I mean, it's tough to win in this league. Um, you're playing a good team in your quarterback. Please, like, we made

some bad decisions tonight really cost our team. UM a lot to learn from, a lot to grow from. But that's not that's not the standard we hold ourselves too, that's not the ball that we play. UM, so a lot to look at, lots to learn from. Now. Look, I know my home's had a better week. I know too, I had a better week. I know cousins had a better week. I know justin Fields had better stats, all

the stuff. Josh Allen though, to take the loss despite throwing all those past attempts and doing everything he did, and to get injured that you see Ellen jur at a at an I wasn't aware of. A UCL afterwards says it's hard to win games in this league when your quarterback plays like bleep Josh Allen. You don't have to apologize to anybody, You don't have to ever put any game on you. You don't have to do anything as far as blame goes, you are the man. And

the fact that he does and he wears it. I love that, like it takes the load off everybody else and put a spotlight on him because we know that he's not the problem. Dion Dawkins, I believe yesterday came out and was like, I would give my left I would give I would give a finger for Josh Allen. He shouldn't have to say that stuff, and that's the way they love him. Josh Allen not having to take

the blame, taking the blame. That's leadership and that's only going to serve the Bills as the season goes on. I hope he's healthy. I think he'll be okay. I'm praying that we get to see him this week against Minnesota because that's a good showdown. But gosh, if I'm starting a team right now, it's hard for me to say anybody other than Mahomes or Allan and Allen every single week wins me over more and more. Yeah, I'm as a Bills fan. I love that you saw the

positives even in the loss. I mean, obviously we see a little bit of me see Josh again. That was a little scary. The last few years. But um, yeah, it was a tough, tough loss. But I want to give a shout out just to the AFC Wildcard race in general. What do you got? I love that it's become so complicated, because you know, we have the Bills at six and two, the Jets at six and three, and the Dolphins at six and three, and the Pats are five and four, like you could have any one

of those teams could make it. Well, let's go through the plaffs, okay, So the clinching teams right now, who do we got? Give me the ranks Bills in the AFC East at six and two, Titans AFC South at five and three, Kansas City for the AFC West at six and two, and the Ravens for AFC North at six and three. Then we've got the Jets. You have three spots, okay, So let's let's hear the next teams. Next.

We have the Jets six and three, the Dolphins six and three, and the Chargers five and three right now, right now, and then who's below them? Indosa line, who's out? My order might be a little off. Pat's five and four, Bengals five and four, like any of those teams could make it. I feel like, yam, the Dolphins still have not lost a game that two US starts, Like, even though they're six and three, they they're somehow more optimistic than than you would think given the fact that they're

third in the division. But yeah, yeah, Patriots, I worry about Mac Jones hasn't played well. Do you feel like the Patriots have a real chance? I don't know, they win this game, and it's like their defense and their running game is good, but gosh, Mac Mac has stunk it up the last few weeks. I mean, I don't know between the Jets and the Pats, both of them. Like, you know, we saw Fields have this resurgence the past five weeks and are not even resurgence because he's never

really break through. So if Fields can break out and that defense can do things, could the Jets have this kind of push with you know, Canzach Wilson. Oh so you're looking at Fields and you're saying, okay, so out of nowhere overnight. Yeah, I don't like za Zach Wilson. That ain't I mean Garrett Wilson. I mean Garrett Wilson, incredible game. He's gonna Yeah, and the deep. We have

talked about how great that defense is. Um, how about our guys, Sala, I mean, yeah, that is a I mean, I don't think anyone took them be in Buffalo, especially after the New England thing. But the New England thing is real. They've lost thirteen straight games to the Patriots.

They played them again. I don't know. The team that's sneaky to me is the Bengals because just when you want to write them off and Jamar Chase is injured and show whose is injured, Joe Mixon goes and has five rushing five touchdowns, four rushing touchdowns and you're like, oh, oh wait, they might be able to run the ball maybe, and then they can and I'm not counting out Borrow. You know, like it's a great, great conference. We knew this going in, right, didn't we know this going in?

That this conference was gonna be wide open and that there's gonna be you know, eight teams competing for seven spots. In this case, it sounds like there's eleven. Meanwhile, the NFC is awful. Yeah yeah, I mean like there's some great teams that we love talking about in the NFC, but also Vials, Vikings, I mean, how Cowboys. I don't know how excited we are with the Vikings. Um yeah, you know, I'm not like taking my shirt off on the plane Kirk Cousins level for them yet, but um yeah,

you know they are still winning. Hawkinson looked great for them this week. That was really fun. That's a that's a great win. That's a resilient win. They're down, they come all the way back. But like, I don't know, to me, I look at those, you know, teams that we thought were going to be good, the Bucks, the Rams, the Packers, and it's like, are we too late in the season for them to get going? Packers, I feel like that Goose is cooked. Rams, that Goose is cooked.

Buccaneers maybe have a glimmer of hope. And then there's you know, the Giants just sitting there winning games coming off there by and the forty nine ers with McCaffrey. We're basically naming thirty two teams and just talking about football. And that's what I think. That's what I think, and I think I mentioned the Seahawks. That's what the league. So the league wants, dude, they want us thinking that every team could win. And guess what a year after

the Bengals went to the Super Bowl. Anything's possible. Yeah, all right, we're ready for our guests. Yeah, let's get too. Can I give a little preview on our guest before we get to him. I love reading. I try to read a book a week, maybe a book every two weeks. Sometimes I do audio books, and I do everything from World War two history to giant long oral histories on

you know, Hollywood. But anytime a Jeff Perlman book shows up in my mail and I'm lucky enough for him to send me the galleys, usually it's a sports book that you know you're getting one of the best writers in the business doing a deep dive on the individual that he's focused on. In the past, I have absolutely cherished some of Jeff's books, including Showtime, which is the impetus for the show winning Time. But I've read that

on a vacation on the beach. My wife I was with her family and we were dating at the time, and they were like, this guy's a little weird. All he's doing is reading a book about the eighties Lakers, and he's not really paying attention to us. But it's

one of my favorite sports books. Of all Time Sweetness, A very controversial but awesome book on Walter Payton, but it shows Walter Payton works in all, not just the Walter Payton that has been portrayed over the last several years, but a really, really, i'd say, journalistic and daring look at Walter Payton's legacy. Boys Will Be Boys, a book on the nineties cowboys that again, how that hasn't been made into a movie or a doc yet? I don't

I don't know what to tell you. The Bad Guys one, which was on the nineteen eighty six Mets and might have been my favorite sports book of all time and really helps you encourage me to go for it and chase my dreams as a sports writer. I read that at a very important time, right out of college, where I was debiding what I wanted to do. And his newest one is called The Last Folk Hero, and it's

a absolute romp. It's a three hundred page book on Bo Jackson, a wonderful athlete who has a almost mythical feel around him, and for the younger generation who might not know much about Bo Jackson, gives you everything you could ever want. For the older generation that might have forgotten Bo Jackson. It's almost like a Paul Bunyan tale. We're gonna bring Jeff in. He's really really talented, and he's also really really curious about so many different things,

not only in sports but outside of sports. I think he's going to be a great guest. Jeff Brewman r after this with no further ado. My guy. Jeff Burlman on the season with Peter Schrager. Jeff, what's up in I'm in a car. You looked at me dubiously when I told you I was in a car. But I'm in a car for a good reason. Okay, do you want to explain what the good reason is? Because I'll tell you. When you book a guest on a show, you'd like to think they're not going to be sitting

in an automobile fighting traffic. I'm not happy about this, but it's pouring pouring rain in southern California. What's never happened? Okay, my wife needs to go to the airport and there's a You could not get an uber this morning at all? All right, zero? Acceptable? You're so Hollywood now. I think of you as this East Coast University of Delaware, New

York city guy, and now you're Southern California, Hollywood. Before we get to the book you wrote, Showtime, which I said in the intro is one of my favorite sports books of all time. I was on a vacation with my wife and her family, and I was just sitting on the beach and I ripped through that book in about three days. And I think they thought there was something off with me, because they're like, he doesn't take his head out of a book. I'm like, I love

this thing. And then sure enough, fast forward ten years and HBO's Winning Time is obviously the adaptation of your book. What was it like seeing one of your sports tombs, like these amazing books that you've actually turned into a successful Hollywood show. I would say dream come true, but I never had any notions of that happening. It was amazing. I mean the highlight for me, the moment of moment. It's funny because I mean the card of my wife and she wasn't here for it is they had a

premiere party and I got to take my kids. She was out of town, and I'm at this place and you know it's in Hollywood, and they do a shot no more to where are you at here. I don't remember where I've seen, but it was it was. It was this cool old theater and I was with my daughter who was eighteen at the time, and my son who was fifteen, and they had this cigar rolling station and my daughter's like, should we um, we should have

a cigar? And I was like, yeah, we should have a cigar with me, my daughter, my son, and Michael Chikliss, who plays Rent hour Back Smoky. It was awesome. It was did you have any did you have any saying like the casting or anything like I always think about, you know, you write this book and then they say, okay, we're turning it into a show, and then is it just hey that that bird is now out of the cage and I just kind of give up and I'm

happy to be a part of it. Or are you sitting there in the casting and being like, you know what, John c Riley, he really is good for for the Jerry Bus roll, like, do you have any saying any of that stuff? It was all me. Everything on that show was you know, I will say, not like the casting. They were really really good about asking me a lot about authenticy authentist. Excuse me about does this work, Does that work? Did this happen that way? Did that happen

that way? Season two, I'm actually listed as a producer, which is funny, too cool. We don't know what that means. But I am a chef, so that's pretty good. And uh, but they you know, we got to be in the in the pilot episode and I'm actually in two days. I'm I'm appearing as a reporter in one of the episodes. It's great, It's killer, it's great. Um, I look at

that book and it was great. But then like, to me, the bad guys won, you know, with the eighty six minutes boys will be boys with the nineties cowboys like have you don't have to tell me yes or no. But like, as imagine, your head starts swirling about all the different great books you've forre in and like if this could work for that story. Is there a future where we're doing a letting distra you know, adapt data, you know, with how it with Wally Backman and whatnot,

that'd be great. I mean, I do it is funny what happens when something like this happens. And obviously you become a little hotter property as far as you're stuff. So since Anytime was made, I've written ten books, and I'd say seven of them have been options. Now really, yeah, as you know, that doesn't mean as much as as you think, Like I mean, someone gives you a little money, which is great. For the odds of it ever becoming a many time or long, there's just so many verbals

and barriers. But it's been great. It's been great. Yeah, um, your latest book. I know you've been doing the media rounds a little bit, um, but I had to have you on our podcast and on this show we've had we do NFL Coaches, we do NFL gms. We uh we try to, you know, really tell the story of this season. But I thought week ten was perfect. Like everyone should read this book. It's called The Last Folk Hero.

It's on Bo Jackson. I think what's interesting about it is you interviewed over seven hundred people and everyone's got their own Bo Jackson tall tale, almost like it's Paul Bunyan or it's like a fable of some sort, or like you interact with Bo Jackson. Here's it And there is no YouTube necessarily, and there is no Snapchat or

Instagram to capture it. But like everybody who's who's who's crossed his path, whether it beat Tom Flores timing him on grass doing a forty and he runs a four one seven, or it's a guy who sees him, you know, hit a hit a baseball that that bursts the lights at the University of Georgia during their first night game. Like there's these crazy tall tales. What was your favorite bow anecdote that you're like, that has to be in the book. He was in a high school, a mcindury High.

They're playing Fairfield High. He hit a ball. Everyone told me this. He hit a ball so high that by the time it came down in left field, he was rounding third piece. And I thought, there's no way that's true. There's no way that's true. And I started everyone people who are at the game, and they'd be like, no, I'm telling you it's true. No, I'm telling you. And someone said, you need to talk to Eddie Scott. But who's Eddie Scott. Eddie was playing left field back game.

You need to talk to Eddie. So I tracked down Eddie Scott and he's like, I am telling you it's true. I was playing left field. He went out to play in college that he did, and he's like, it's the highest Bob I've ever seen. I the ball, it finally comes down, I pick it up, I look up bows,

rounding third and heading for home. And the cool aftermath of this story is um Last week I was in Alabama, in Homeward, Alabama during a signing and there was at a place where everyone had to wear a mask because one of the people who worked there was a compromise and this guy walks up. He's like Jeff, and I go yeah. He pulls down his mask and he goes, I'm Eddie Scott and I was like, oh my god,

the star of my book. And he said he saw me on the Today Show talking about him and his family was so thrilled, and so yeah, I love that story real quickly, tell the I mean the high school career of Bo Jackson, all the sports. I think you know you did the synopsis of all the track in the football, but like, just give us the like, just for the listener at home. What was Bo Jackson in

high school? It's my favorite thing ever. Okay, he wanted his senior as a junior and senior who went back to back state decathlon championships without having to run the fifteen hundred the final race, because he didn't want to. He his senior year, he didn't take off his sweats for the decathlon, so he did all the events in his sweats. I don't think it was to intimidate people are wet. He wins the decaf on his senior after spraining an ankle midway through the next day, starts for

the mcindoy baseball team. The only pitching appearance of the year for bow Jackson strikes out thirteen in a playoff win. He stole nine bases. I talked to the catcher Sam Doss, who told me after throwing him out, Bo's next up at he homered and winked at him. He said, five

individual state track and field records. He was drafted by the Yankees in the second round of his senior year, and the Yankees kept trying to find him because they wanted to negotiate with him, and his mom was so dead set on him going to college, and also Auburn's sort of recruiters put a wall around him. The Yankees literally could not get in touch with him. They had a scout knock on his door, would not answer the door.

They called his high school baseball coach Terry Brazil, and said, we want to sign fly you and Bow to Yankee Stadium for Yankees Red Sox and the coaches like that sounds great, those like, yeah, I don't want to do it. I don't care, I'm going over, Like he just he was unbelievable and unmoved and couldn't have named one player on the Yankees or the Red Sox, and certainly didn't know they were rivals. Like he was dis predicted. You

tell that, You say that story. Then there was his first career hit is off a Hall of Fame, You'll tell the story. But like Bow wasn't like a sports savant, but and I don't say that, like not question it's intellectual, so like did not follow these sports, just was an absolute freak and played them. Yeah, didn't didn't care, didn't know, didn't watch um. First major League got bat September two, nineteen eighty six. He's caught up from Memphis. He's very

raw on the mount. Steve Carton at the time three hundred and twenty one game winner, obviously a Hall of Famer. It's this beautiful seven pitch at bat. It's like a rock Opera and bow. I mean, he looks like every muscle was popping out of that uniform. The uniform is so tight. He was so built. And on the seventh pitch of the at bat, after almost hitting a home run, he grounds out to second. All right, it's a ground

or second. He hits atimulate ul it fields a bob and runs a He runs a three six down the line. It's the second fastest recorded time and major League history by right, Mickey manno is the only faster. And there's I'm just saying. The stop watches were Mickey Manto played or click click click click click, and the botas were like and the scout behind home played Art Steward from the Royals. He looks at his stop watch and he turned to the other guys, and someone's like, what did

you get? And he's like, it's not even worth it. It's wrong. Someone else is like, well, what do you get? What you get it's wrong? Well, I got a three six. He's like, I got it three six, Holy crap, I got it three six. Like they didn't believe it. After the game, Bo Jackson has asked what it meant to him getting his first hit off Steve Carlton, he knows who he was. Yeah, no idea and that's I mean, I love that. And then he gets drafted by the Buccaneers,

but he doesn't go what's the reasoning behind that? And then the mythology after that. So he's drafted. He's um. Before the draft, the Buccaneers fly him to Tampa for a physical. And this is during Auburn's baseball season. And how bad does the Auburn baseball coach and bow is late for a g against you Alabama Birmingham and someone's like how it is like to a player, where's boat? It's like, oh, um, he flew to Tampa. He flew

to Tampa. Yeah, the Buccaneers flew in from physical. He what he's that violated SEC rules almost ever around the country. You could play amateur, one sport, pro another not in the SEC, which you and I both know. It's absolutely saved because he was getting paid. It's a joke. Yeah, So he bo blames the Buccaneers. He says this is behind them, and they they end up drafting him number one.

The head coach was Lemon Bennett, and he said to you, Culver House, do not draft him if he's not going to play here, and Calbveruse is like, nah, he'll play, He'll play. They draft number one voter doesn't want to play there, but his aids and shown him to fly to Tampa and me with the team. He flies. Steve Young maybe my favorite interview of all the time for

multiple Bucks because he is the best um. He was the Bucks quarterback at the time, and U culver House, the owner, says, why don't you come come with me? And voted dinner, we can wine and dine. Boat When they go to dinner and culver House does one of these like Hey, I'm gonna I'm gonna leave you guys for a minute just to talk, and he gets up. Bo Jackson says to Steve Young, just so you know, there's no evan way I ever signed with this team.

And the next day Scott Brantley and a bunch of teammates to both Fishing Buccaneers players and Brantley said to bout listen man, we would love to have you, but you don't want to play here. You don't want to play here, and the Royals draft him in the fourth round. The line from Art Stewart, the scouting director, was our franchise won't fold if bo Jackson doesn't sign here. He hated the Buccaneers so much the Royals agreed to signed to a million dollars. It was very important to Boat.

The original offer was like nine point eighty thousand. You want a million, They said, we'll make you a millionaire, and they signed bo Jackson. In his contract he would be called up by the end of nine eighty six, which he was m Then the Raiders come calling. It's after or during the NFL lockout, or the players have a stoppage, and that same season eighty seven he ends up there. But what I find interesting they already had Marcus Allen, who was one of the great Super Bowl heroes.

But like you talk about it in this book, it's very odd. They were like as good as Marcus Allen was, as charitable as he was, as glowing a personality as he was for the LA Raiders, al Davis didn't like him. We'll go and then bo Jackson comes along, and we've got two of the best running backs in one backfield. Yeah, it's super weird. Al Davis has a lot of sort of like he was very impulsive and very in a way hard to read and somebody's very easy to read.

And there was all this there was all this discussion always why did Bo Why did all Davis hate Marks Allen so much? And the best reason I got, I swear was after they won that supermow and eighty three eighty three right or eighty four they beat the Redskins. Yeah, Marcus Allen appeared on the cover of a book about that season and Al Davis flipped and I really hated the idea of someone being the face of the Raiders. Besides Al Davis, I hated it. So he brings in

Bo Jackson. He kind of used Bo Jackson in a way as a Marcus Allen anecdote, like I'll show you and we get about Bo Jackson. It's funny during his first practice with the Raiders, or one of his first practice is first practice, Um, it's it's eighty seven. You have a lot of the replacement players are stowing camp because they're helping get the older readers back in the shape. And Matt Millan and Rod Markin are playing linebackers in these drills and they're just beating up on the scabs

like we're just gonna kill the scabs. And this guy takes a handoff and he runs around and Matt Millan he Matt Millen is like, whoa who was that guy? All right, miss is tackle. I'm gonna get back the same playing. He apologizes, right, he apologizes to the other guy. I don't know what's wrong with me. And he misses again, and he's like, geez, what the hell? Who's the scab? And Rod Martin is cracking up. He's like, you dumbass,

that's that's Bow Jackson and Matt Millan's like huh. And on the sideline, Marks Allen is watching this drill with James Lofton, and Lofton says from him, well, there goes your job. It's did and Bow is that good? And obviously the Bodsworth game and the second Bosworth game because people don't realize and I didn't know this. I'm reading your book. Like the first game he ever played in

was against Seattle. He didn't get the dress. And Bosworth has this like incredible game, and then of course he does what he does the Kingdome on Monday Night football. But I got a fast forward to eighty nine. I'm a seven year old kid in New Jersey and I know exactly where I was watching the MLB All Star Game and if you can't, I hate just teeing you up with stories, but this is what you do best.

Like can just take us to Mickey Mantles in New York City, the whole situation and where we're at eighty nine and they'll be All Star Game. Bo Jackson starting in center field, so it's his only All Star Game appearance. And the day before the game, Tony LaRussa, who was a manager of the Al pulls Wade Bogs and boer Side. It says, you know, wait, I'm gonna have Bow lead off, just kind of for the moment, the bigness of the moment. Jackson's way boxes Cord. They practice a handshake actually to

do after someone homers. So Bo Jackson leads off. Rick Rush was on the mound in the booth, Vince Scully and Ronald Reagan. It's a beautiful Southern California day ante stadium. Second pitch from Russell Bow takes a slider. It just nails a dead center into the batter's eye over air teams. Nike decided the Austar game was when they were going to debut the Bow. You don't know Deadly at which was their enormous ad by It was really the launch

of Bow Knows. And that's the add with Jim Everett and Michael Jordan and Wayne Gretzky and Gibson Well, all the Nike executives are watching the game of Mickey Mantle's restaurant in New York City and which, by the way, it was a really good restaurant to great Burger. It was good. Yeah, yeah, it was really cool. It was right south the south the park and bo Jackson hits his homer and the ad is going to run at the beginning of the fourth inning and they just go crazy.

They are jumping up and down, screaming, shouting, celebrating because the timing of this, the serendipity of we're doing this launch on the day that Bow Jackson, in a lot of ways announces himself as a national, national two sport phenomena. And you know obviously that that goes on to be one of the great sports marketing campaigns and one of the things. But I always say, O Jackson says almost nothing in those ads, like that's kind of amazing about it.

Jordan talks in most of his ads p Jackson. He says. In one of the ads, he says, so when's that toward de France thing anyway? And I think he says in another one, so when's that Boston Marathon? That's it. He was a guy with a stutter. He was shy, he was soft spoken, he was guarded, and they built the perfect ad campaign based on his talents. He took a little a little easter egg on Gretzky and the

the ice skating. Oh it's so funny. So everyone in that ad is supposed to say bonus, bonus, hockey, bonus based on his His line was bonus hockey. But he was terrible and actually he just put I mean one line, but he portraed it over and over again. Did so he just he goes up and he just says no.

And they showed it didn't actually work perfectly. And there's a scene of bow skating and he's in a king's uniform, but it actually took place on a high school gym gym floor in Kansas, and he was wearing socks, no skates. I love that. I love that. And then he runs up the wall in Baltimore Memorial Stadium. I think you make a good point in the book, like people ask who's the best athlete of all time, and you can get Jim Thorpe, and you can get Dion Sanders, and

you could talk. You're saying, Bowl, there's never been another human being who's run up a wall before? Is that? Is that not the statement that Bow? Just if you want to see what Bow Jackson was as an athlete, watch him cash his fly ball as he runs up an actual outfield wall. Because you can always say, you know whoa that throw by whoever was amazing, or that run by so and so it was amazing. Of course a John Ross or someone ran in at the same time. Combine,

you know, blah blah blah. No one's ever run up the wall. And I interviewed a lot of it. So further, it was a flimsy wall. It was in Baltimore's old Memorial State. It was flimsy, and he ran up the wall and he was so high up the wall. I talked to guys with the Orioles. The guys in the bullpen pulled back because they thought Bow was coming over the wall, and yeah, no one's ever done it. Other things I taught to a guy named Chad Allen and played with Boone and the memph with the Memphis Chicks.

He said there was a game against Charlotte in the minor leagues and bo also ran up a wall, but they were like forty guys there at the game. So when he saw it, he was like, oh, there you go. The next day, the finding is the next day across the major leagues during BP, guys are shagging balls and guys are trying to run up the raw the wall, so all across the majors and no one could do it. Obviously, no one's done a sense, it's incredible the four, one,

seven forty ungrassed the running up the wall. And yet you make a good point throughout the book that you know Bow's legacy and why he's a folk hero, and maybe why it adds to the mystiqua Bow is that it all ends so quickly, and he's not necessarily Michael Strahan or Charles Barkley or painting and Eli Manning. You don't see Bow Jackson. He's still alive, he's still around, and yet very short NFL career, very short baseball career came over the hip surgery. Obviously had his moment with

the White soft but that wasn't along. Do you think that adds to me? That's the mystique that like what could have been is almost more fascinating than like, all right, he had a nice tenure career and was a really good athlete at the peak of it times a million. I don't want to write the m Smith biography. Well, and with all due respect Emi Smith, I don't want to write that book. I don't want to write the Gary Sheffield biography. With all due respect to Gary Sheffield.

The whole thing about bow Jackson is all right. First of all, there are enough. There are those five or six highlights on YouTube just to me, not just great runs, but running up a wall, throwing out Howard Reynolds at home, running over the bars, the ninety one yard run, running over my carden. Enough of those where you say, holy crap.

But there aren't enough where we have two hundred, you know, like there's enough where you believe the mythology, where you believe that actually is possible that he hit them all so high, that he rounded the third, that he did run in four one, three forty, And if we saw it all, it wouldn't be nearly as interesting. So Emma Smith was amazing. But we saw it all. Gary Sheffield, amazing, we saw it all. I love the question mark over about it's a whole thing. It is the whole thing.

I'll end it with this. I love this book so much. Right, and like then they're doing the media and both comes out and he's like, I didn't take part in this book. You didn't interview Bo. Did you try to get Bow for this book? And what has been the response since? And have you heard from Bow directly, because honestly, Jeff, I've read some of your books. They're not always glowing about the subject. The far book is very fair. The Walter Payton book of course, had its you know, reaction

by many in the Chicago media. This book, Yeah, there's some stuff early on in Bo's childhood where you're like, he was a bit of a bully and he had this hey or whatever. But that's like this was a love letter to Bo Jackson's athletic ability and what he meant to the culture at the time. Yeah, so I thank you. I early on I sent Bo a copy of my other books and a letter and he called me, I was in my backyard twenty twenty hard of the pandemic and he was super nice, like super nice. He

was like, hey, Jeff is bo Jackson. And we talked for a long time. He was getting his wife a chop salad. He was driving to get our chop salad and what he's doing in his life, and he was cool, and he's like, look, I am, I don't care that you're I don't mind that you're doing this book. I remember probably are doing it. I just I get to ask about this stuff all the time. I'm just not really interested. I said, that's fine. But I got really lucky because he had an autobiography, which I bet you

read because we're similar, you know. Ninety yeah, And before Dick shap passed away, he donated um all the audio files, all the transcripts, notes, et cetera from that Boone Knows boat experience to the Auburn University Library, which I did not know. And I spent about two hundred and fifty bucks and I had it all copied and sent to me. I don't think anyone had looked at it since Bono's Boat came out literally five hundred six hundred. I don't

know pages of the transcripts of everything A gift. Oh man, it never made the book. There was also the audios I find things Jeremy Shop transcribe most but he was all, so thank you Jeremy Shop. Um. And then since the book has come out, bow, do you reach out a note thank you, a dismissal of the book anything, he U. He tweeted something about if you're going it might be

his pintweet a West for a while. If you're gun to read anything about me, don't read a quote unauthorized biography way to hear it from me, which suggests maybe he's gonna write an autobiography, which to me totally coolte and totally fine. But I just want to say, like I really need this, Like you're a writer, I'm a writer.

Bo Jackson's autobiography, just as an example, which I really love, he talks about going over twenty one for twenty one strikeouts in his first twenty one college baseball facts and I thought that was really interesting. In fact, I called different aubortunity. It's asked about it. They were like, yeah,

he really struggled. Oh it was rough. Well, I start digging through the old baseball box scores and he went two for five against Southern Illinois his first college game and then he won one for nineteen and I'm not saying he was lying at all. His memory is tricky, and the reason you write biographies is because you give a different perspective. It's a historic book. He's a historic figure, and you want to sort of you want to look

into someone beyond just what he has to say. There's more to a story, into a history than just one person's perspective. It's a great take. Thank you for coming on the podcast, but also thank you for writing this book. It is if you're a fan of just sports and nineties nostalgia and eighties nostalgia, you gotta pick it up real quick. The person that's reached out to you since that has made you smile the most, because I think anyone who loves either sport just loved I mean, there's

a story about him going fishing with Rick Dempsey. There's hell McCray ripping up glossy photos of him, like every name, George Brett, Marcus Allen, Matt Mill and how we long all the names that you remember from that era. Who's reached out to you since the book has come out that it's made you smile and say, yeah, that's pretty cool. If that person read it. Oh yeah, the best was the guy who threw Bo Jackson out, the only guy

who threw Bo Jackson out in high school. Sam DAWs, his daughter emailed me the other day and said, oh my god, my dad is thrilled. This is amazing. So bringing people to light from past life really warms my heart. That's so good, guys, you gotta get the book. It's the last folk hero. It's Perman and Jeff, you're a good husband and you're a menshould partick and your wife to the airport and we appreciate you coming on the podcast. All right, thank you so much. You're the man, dude. See,

I enjoy doing that. Jeff Berman is a good writer. And if we're gonna have Robert Sala and Joe Shane and Paul Rudd on like, this is another lane we can do. Perlman spent years working on that Bow Jackson book, interviewed seven hundred people and then puts out a book

into the earth, and you're like, you just hope people respond. Now, Aaron, as I'm doing the interview and I'm talking about the nineteen eighty seven the NFL players strike, I'm looking at my other window on the zoom and I'm looking at you, who is of a different generation. You're younger than me, Like, does Bo Jackson mean anything to your generations? Bo Jackson

as a sports and amnating to you. You know, I don't know a ton of the history behind him, but I loved hearing about it, and like I now just have to go on YouTube and look up these like the clip of him running up a wall like this sounds incredible, and so just to find some like new figures of really important sports history is a great thing. It's crazy. So in ninety one, he's in the playoff

game against the Bengals and he hurts his hip. He never plays football again, and like everyone says that, like if it had happened in two thousand and one or two and twenty one, that's a simple surgery and you know, give him eight to ten months, he'll be back. But they didn't have the science back then. They'd have the

medicine back then to fix that. He did come back to baseball, and I think in his first step bat hits a home run for the White Sox, which is like just the perfect like sports lure and all that stuff. And then for Jeff like, what do you heard what he said? Ten books, seven of them have now been optioned and Winning Times? Did you watch Winning Time? And HBO loved it? Right, So he's the original writer of

all that. And then he tells the story about his daughter being able to smoke a cigar with him, and you're like, that's pretty cool. That's a cool moment for like a sports writer, a guy who's been writing books and just churning out these books and they're all bestsellers and he lives a very good life, I'm sure, but like to have this second chapter where now all of

a sudden he's like this Hollywood guy, that's pretty cool. Yeah, And I have not had a cigar with my dad, but I have had a cigar with Michael Chicklist, So you know, similar, similar thing. You've had a cigar with the commission You've had a cigar with Michael Chicklist. What does that thing? Yeah? More, Also, tequila to his daughter makes an incredible tequila. Actually that there's a lot of that story. I'm sure. Do we want to share that story or just leave it at let's let well, well

we'll get well, yeah, we'll get to it. And the listeners, Yeah, well, we'll leave that as a little teaser. I'm headed to Munich in a few hours. Any tips for this trip, oh from me Man, I haven't been to Germany in many years. Um, but uh, get something good to read. Sounds like you got plenty of books, probably already for the flight. And uh yeah, I'm excited to hear. How you uh what do you guys do there? This might

this might upset some people. Um if the German cultures might have set some people who are with the NFL. But I told a guy at my kids school that I was going to Germany and he goes, Berlin, I don't know, Cologne, No, No, I go, I'm going to Munich. And he goes, oh okay, and I go, yeah, I'm pretty excited and I can't wait. I mean, is it And he looks at me and he goes, yeah, Munich like the hoboken of Germany. Like huh. Alright. So I'm headed there. On that note, I will have updates. I'm

sure we'll talk all about it. I'm sure i'll get into some high jinks and if I have a beer with Brady, don't be shocked. I usually find my way into these kind of situations. Guys, thanks for listening to the podcast. Aaron, You're the man. The music is our guy, Jack Rudd and of course Jason English, iHeart and all the NFL folks. Thank you for this opportunity. We love doing it a little different podcasts this week. Jeff Brohman our guest, but let's keep it rocking. You mean, Aaron,

Jeff Saturday. Let's Go the Season with Peter Schrager is a production of the n of FELL in partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts.