How Vanderbilt Is Quietly Building a Contender | Vanderbilt Football GM Barton Simmons

We're sitting there in December. I'm wondering if we're going to be able to field a team. This has been a challenging job these last... couple cycles there's been some real moments of like pain when you miss on this side that there's a there's a real cost to that like you got a guy on your roster that can't do it there's a real pain it's not just

as simple as find best guy get best guy take me through the process of when the transfer portal opens it's anxiety inducing for sure both because of just the the quick pace and the movement around the transfer stuff, but also everything has ripple. What does success look like here at Vanderbilt for you and for this program? Winning a national championship.

This is the Next Up podcast from Front Office Sports. I'm your host, Adam Brenneman. Today I'm sitting down for an awesome episode with Barton Simmons, the general manager at Vanderbilt Football. If you don't know Barton Simmons' story, you're about to. He's built one of the most exciting.

underrated rosters in college football, and it's happening right in the heart of Nashville. They had an amazing season last year, and Barton Simmons has become one of the top general managers, one of the top executives in football. This episode's presented by Teamworks, the ultimate platform.

for general managers like Barton Simmons who are building elite programs. Teamworks is transforming the way college sports operate, and we're fired up to have him on board as part of this pod. Let's get into it. Here's Barton Simmons. Man, I appreciate you doing this. Yeah. Excited to talk to you. I mean, I was thinking about when you became the GM here at Vanderbilt, you were kind of...

It was kind of before the wave of a lot of programs hiring GMs. So I know you go way back with Coach Lee. What was it like when you got the call from him that was saying, hey, you want to leave your coach?

recruiting job to come be the GM at Vanderbilt? Well, first of all, I think... He knew that I wasn't actually the recruit. It was my wife that had to recruit. Because like you said, you're leaving a little bit of a more flexible environment. But no, I think ultimately... You know, I was keeping close tabs on Clark and talking to him as he was going through the process with Vanderbilt just because I was excited for him. You know, really no selfish interest around it at all.

was excited about the idea of him being in Nashville and being at Vanderbilt. And he had sort of talked to me in the past about, hey, if I get something, I'm taking you with me. And I'd always sort of... in the back of my mind been like well good luck because I'm not going you know because I really wasn't of the mind of just going anywhere in the country and but for him to get the job here obviously

Even if any other coach had gotten the job here, I wouldn't have necessarily been as likely to make the jump. It was just sort of the combination of being in Nashville at that time. Vanderbilt was a place I've always... had a lot of belief in and and and felt like was a place that had a lot of potential and then to do it with him is who someone is i mean independent of being a longtime friend you know like that's just

There's a lot of longtime friends I wouldn't work for. And that's just a guy that does it the right way and is the smartest person I know. I just knew that... I wasn't going to go here if I didn't think we were going to win either. I had confidence in him.

those first few weeks on the job as as the gm you're trying to rebuild this program what was that time like what was it i'm sure it had to be kind of crazy it was it was exhilarating that's probably some of the most fun that i've ever had really professionally is those early days

when you're really kind of trying to build something from scratch. And I think the way we were approaching it too was just building out processes and sort of... um totally conceptualizing the way you wanted to do it and and um and i was i was um fortunate in that i didn't have really any any um blueprint

Like I hadn't done it before. And so I was coming at it with fresh eyes and was, was, you know, forced to look at it, I think outside of the box in a lot of ways. And then at the same time, like I also, we were there people.

on staff nick valdeseri is one that comes to mind who's my director of player personnel who was here from the beginning and you know he was the one i could lean on that's you know he'd been at notre dame he'd done it sort of he'd seen the prototype um at different places and so um

But no, I mean, those early days were, you know, it was crazy. And it was fast and furious. And you were just, to think of how much we actually got done in those early days was really... energizing and exciting and yet even back then I mean this was what four and a half years ago or I mean, the job was dramatically different. I mean, it's changed so much since then. You've got a budget now. That's right. Yeah, there's a lot more, I think, nuance and complexity to it now.

Whereas back then it was really just like, how do we, how do we think with fresh eyes and fresh mind around what we're trying to accomplish around attracting just recruits? Now it's like, okay, like you said, I mean, managing. basically a payroll, basically a salary cap, and then what that means and how it interacts with transfer and high school and retention and roster chemistry.

development and all these sort of things you know the the interaction between all those things is what makes the challenge now yeah for all the the college football fans listening give us a description of what a general manager does in 2025 in college football yeah okay like give me a day yeah day in the life uh it depends on the day obviously i think it's i mean i think um there's I think one of the things it's become is a little bit of managing this intersection point between

coaching staff who have guys that they want and then there's sort of a these days has become a kind of a cost threshold to getting them managing the You know, the relationship between the players, recruits, agents. And I think it's... So the challenge of it is sort of managing that intersection point and then managing certainly the relationships down the hall and making sure we're shepherding and stewarding the resources that we have responsibly.

And so when those things are all kind of intersecting, there's just a lot of interpersonal kind of... expectation setting and adjusting that needs to take place. And I think that's one of the real challenges. And so it's a little bit less of just like the pure scouting and recruiting that it was. you know even for me in the early days and and um i think the if if if i'm if i have my way perfectly

you know, we're able to sort of insert a little bit more of that. And we're, I mean, I enjoy that stuff. And so, but, but what I've had to do in my role is, is sort of hand off some of that. to guys like Nick Valdisari, guys like Kendall Lawson, who's my director of scouting, people like Bella Baker or Bella Lipak now, who runs our sort of on-campus stuff. You really have to have a lot of trust in your staff.

because there is just so much more sort of big picture thinking that this role actually entails now. It's not just... as simple as find best guy, get best guy. And so that's the challenge now is how do you manage all that? And I think it's so important more than ever to just have a really good staff around you. And I'm fortunate to have that. You used to evaluate players and rank them. Decide how many stars a player got and rank the top players in the country. Now you're...

betting your career on how well you actually evaluate some of these players. How has that changed your evaluation process? Have you changed the way you look at players and the way you decide who's good and who's not? Yeah, there's been some evolution.

That was the appeal from the jump to have taken this role is sort of betting on myself, sort of getting in the game. You know, I think it's when you're on the media side and you're ranking and sort of. you know you're talking about these opinions basically you have of players and like that's where it ends and you get these flash judgments of the opinions and you have to defend them and then you move on to the next class and and

Everyone else has moved on to the next class. And I would continue to go back and sort of grade myself. How'd I do? How'd I do? How'd we do as a company? And try my best to learn from those. And then I'd sort of, I'd release these grades and I'd write a story on it and no one would read it because no one really cares at that point. But it's sort of like that was my scoreboard.

And so to have an opportunity to have a scoreboard here that's actually real and to sort of dive in the game and actually have some skin in it, that's the fun of it. That's the part where I enjoy and I want to be able to compete. And to your initial question, I mean, I would for sure say that my the way I look at it has changed in that like.

When you're on the media side and you're projecting rankings, you want to ultimately the way I would do is we project to the NFL draft. And so you try to sort of you try to take shots at guys that were most NFL draft. sort of worthy. Guys that were going to have the upside to land in the NFL draft, to get drafted high. And it was effective doing it that way, but... When you miss on this side, there's a real cost to that. You've got a guy on your roster that can't do it.

there's a real pain. And you stamped it. But it's less about the personal, like what's at stake personally and as much as it is like functionally is like, This guy's not helping us on scout team. This guy's not actually going to, you know. And so I think the there's you really have to I think it's way more about.

minimizing your misses than maximizing your hits in a lot of ways. And so that's one of the ways I've looked at it. I think we look at players a little bit differently. And we had to recruit differently in the early days here. And we really had to. we had to to be really dialed in in the projection element because the the sort of run that we were that this program was coming off of it wasn't a

Certainly wasn't a sexy program at that point. You know, it was, you know, we felt like we had to be hyper developmental, which we still have to be. But what's... Where we have been able to shift is, and certainly the transfer portal helps, NIL resources help. You know, we're able to shift a little more to the to the wind now. And can they help us soon? Mindset. Yeah. And that's a, you know.

you can get a much better batting average when that's what you're trying to accomplish and i think we're in a place now where you know we can balance all these things in a healthy way but for sure like you know we don't have to be planning three four years out anymore we can we can build teams year after year yeah take me through the process of when the transfer portal opens

That's got to be the craziest time for you and Coach Lee and your staff because portal opens, you've got to move fast as hell on guys because you don't know. They could, in one day, decide where they're going. So if you like someone, you've got to evaluate them. You've got to do your research before you officially sign them, or else you may miss on something. What's that process like when the portal opens and you've got to decide in four hours?

hours if you actually want to offer a guy or not yeah yeah well i mean It's interesting because, you know, I think every program now is built to do a lot of advanced work. We're no different than anyone else in that. I mean, we work really hard in the fall. to build a board and understand what's out there and have some real awareness to what's going to come available but you can do as much as much advanced work as you want you can log all kinds of man hours on that when when that portal opens,

There's going to be names that pop up that maybe you weren't prepared for. There's going to be opportunities that guys, maybe relationships in place from a staff member or someone connected to a player that may. may allow or facilitate um something and so you're right no matter how much due diligence you do there's still going to be those moments where you really do have to to quickly make a decision to quickly assess a staff consensus, you know, and then run with it. And so it's frenetic.

You know, we got guys coming in sort of on the, you know, they go on the portal. They may be visiting two days later, you know, and we got to be ready for that. And so it keeps everybody on their toes. It's certainly.

a fast-paced sort of time of the year. It's anxiety-inducing, for sure. I think both because of just the quick pace and the movement around the transfer stuff, but also... everything has ripple and so like you're always worried about what's what's the ripple of this um what's the ripple of of a player that we may have that goes in the portal what's the ripple of a player that we're bringing in and and so um

Ultimately, I think we've gotten to a point in our program that which is an exciting sort of evolution, but these guys actually really embrace. competition and they want to be really good like they want they want us to bring in players that help this team be really good and so you know those things end up sort of ultimately taking care of themselves but yeah it's it's It is fast and furious. Yeah, for sure. It must be crazy. And you can't miss, as you said. You can't miss.

As the GM at Vanderbilt, how have you incorporated data analytics into your approach to roster construction, to maybe self-scouting your own roster? How have you used data to make decisions? Yeah. One of the things that I did, the first thing we did when we got here was I took a lot of time and you know we have smart people on this campus and i try to i tried to leverage that and we um we did some work on just really studying like what's been successful here at vanderbilt

in terms like what's the profile what's the profile by position what's the profile both in terms of their their athletic profile but also their recruiting profile their academic profile like what is actually the sweet spot And that was informative, instructive. You know, it helped guide us early in some things. And I think as we've gone, we've tried to be...

We're super aware of bringing in as much context as we can to our decisions. And yet at the same time, like I think one of the ways that I've evolved a little bit is. To not let the analytics and the data get in the way of making a good football decision, I think there's a balance there.

You know, and I think it's important to know what that balance is. And especially kind of like I mentioned earlier, too, like especially when you're you know, when you're building teams way more year to year than than sort of, you know, four years down the road. I think it's important to make sure that, like, you know, you're bringing in guys that are fits right now for what you're doing, you know. And so I think we found a balance in that.

I think it's it's I think this is one of the difficult things about this this role right now and the climate we're in is it's not like the NFL bully because you don't. know exactly what the free agent market's going to look like. You can't lock guys in for long-term contracts. You don't know what the contracts are. The market is so dynamic.

you know hopefully we're going to have a cap which starts to maybe create a little bit more market stability but prior to that there there really isn't a cap and there really is no you know there's no limit to what the market is and so that that creates this like This world where, you know, it's almost a mistake to try to stay really hard line around.

these really data-driven decisions. I have a strong appreciation for analytics and data, and I've done a lot of things to incorporate that into our processes. And yet, One of the real realities that I've had to come to grips with is this sort of like idea that, you know, you can't. you can't be hard line in this world. You know, you've got to really have an ability to sort of adapt to each situation independently of itself. And so...

I'm fascinated on where this is all going to go on the evolution of it all. Because what I'd like to do is get to a place where, hey, this is a, you know, we are. Everything is is by the book and everything is is data driven. And but until we have structured in place that. that creates the guardrails that you know what the rules are that you're playing within it's it's kind of hard to operate that way is there any data analytics numbers that you always want to see

when it comes to certain players or when you're evaluating talent. And then I'd have to assume that there has to be some kind of, you mentioned the cap, there has to be some system or algorithm that you're using to figure out. how much a player at x position is actually worth and is it worth paying that amount of money or are you saying that a lot of it because there's no cap it comes down to feel Yeah, that's the nuance that I kind of reference. You know, I think the second in this world.

To this point, because, listen, I think there's some there's some rule evolution right now that's allowing us to hopefully to find a little bit more.

structure um to this point it's uh it's been i've not prescribed to the idea of here's our here's the window and uh you know we're not going to we're not going to stray outside this window um now obviously there's a lot of factors that are in play there how deep is you know how deep is your board and um what's what is the what's the depth of the position uh nationally and um you know what's the what's your room look like um what's the

the high school crop look like i mean all these things are sort of inputs that you have to evaluate um and then i think at the end of the day like it's it's i think it's important to acknowledge like at least in our operation, I'm not, I'm not working on an Island, you know, and it's, it's, I've the, you know, our coaching staff is involved in, in who they're coaching, you know? And, and so.

there needs to be a level of buy-in from them and sort of coordination and collaboration on how we're going to build the roster we want. And so all of that, I think, creates To this point, again, through the first couple of iterations of this, a world where I actually think it's a mistake to create.

too many hard lines and um and i think to this point actually when when when you look at kind of what we've done what i think two years in to like really attacking transfers is is we've got a pretty high hit rate and um And, you know, hopefully we're going to be able to continue that. But it's, you know, it's been a, it's a process, I think, that's way more art than science.

Is there a common trait that you have found during your time doing tons of evaluations that you feel like is the most common denominator among the best players?

Maybe tangible or intangible. Yeah, I think one of the things that I've always, even back to my media days, I think continues to translate is... just the multi-sport athletes you know i think because ultimately what one of the things that you're trying to

suss out when you're when you're going through this process and the thing i think and this isn't revolutionary to say this because i think a lot of people obviously acknowledge this but i mean you got to find guys that love football you got to find guys that love to compete and One of the best ways to identify someone that loves to compete is just who are the guys that are just always doing something? There's always playing something. Who's the guy?

And there's actually some ways through our recruiting process that we'll insert some things that allow us to just get a little bit of a glimpse of what is their competitive temperament? What is their level of... How easy are they to entice into a game of something? Because it's just those little clues. And I think when you're looking at a guy who's got a resume of...

four-sport athlete or as, you know, every ball he touches seems to be, you know, he's making some really impressive plays. And I think those things... seem to translate across you know all positions all that's sort of the broad kind of characteristic like if i'm just creating a player man like it's it's a guy that just loves to be out there playing playing sports And he's really good at it. And I think for me, it's always been something where I think so many, like if I'm watching a football.

player and i find out he's he's got basketball tape i'm immediately gonna say well i'd rather watch the basketball tape right now like give me show me the basketball tape like you can see like body control burst movement quick jump ability like twitch like those things show up on a basketball and i think there's a you know um there's

wide receivers that play center field. They can track the ball really well. They typically have really good ball skills. Those sort of little lines that you can... um connect to different sports in different positions i think are really interesting and i'm always on the hunt for trying to figure out like like what are the tells you know because we only have so much information so how do you how do you just

what's the tell that gives us that much more information. But, but on top of all that though, I've really continued to kind of come back to production. Yeah. Like at the end of the day, if, uh, like you better be productive. If you're going to be productive in college, you better have been productive in high school. I don't care where you played. If you're going to be productive at the power four level and your transfer coming in from.

fcs or something you better have been productive you know and so i just that is ultimately um like i think that that sort of grounding is like uh characteristic you have to always be aware of

To get too seduced by all the other stuff and forget about the reductions are going to get you in trouble. A big group of people that watch this show or listen are... kids that want to play college football and one of the most common questions i get asked in my dms out in public wherever are questions about highlight tapes hey what do i put on my highlight video how do i get noticed by coaches you probably spend a lot of time in your team in your staff watching highlight videos

So when you turn on someone's highlight tape, what's the actual process? What are you actually looking for? Are you watching? 20 seconds of it are you watching three minutes are you going a minute and then i'm watching game film and then i'm going to see like what what's it give our viewers a little insight of what you're actually looking at real quick guys i want to give a shout out to our sponsor on this podcast

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$50 bonus, link in description. Let's go. The highlight tape is sort of the starting point and you better have really good highlight tape. I mean, you can't, yeah, you can't, like if you don't have, at our level, if your highlight tape isn't, does it pop like there's no way to like you know uh manipulate that it's either it's either gonna pop or it's not and so i think that's that's always the starting point um

Typically, when we're getting together as staff, that's highlight tapes we're watching. Now, I will say, again, that is the starting point. And so then from there, what we always try to check off our list is we want to make sure we get... um ideally an in-person eval just to see see the way they move see see the way that they um just again how big they are you know what's their what's their just kind of the movement skills you can't see on the tape

We take a workout tape as well. When guys go to camps and they get film working out, like low angle stuff where you can see these guys. compete. That's really helpful. But then we're going to monitor there. We're going to cross-check highlight tape with game tape as well. We're going to have POA's point of attack tape on every player we end up taking.

And and we're going to try to make sure that that matches up like and listen, most high school kids, their point of attack tape is where it is basically the good, bad and the ugly. It's everything that's relevant, basically. And. Most high school kids, you're going to see some real warts in that. Some ugly. Yeah, there's some ugly in there. And so we've got to then be able to just...

assess, hey, like this is, again, this is in his DNA. We can't fix this. Or it's like, hey, well, we can deal with that. And I think in most cases for high school kids, it's just about like... I mean, most guys don't know how to play hard, ultimately, like every snap. And so when you get a guy where the point of attack tape looks like the highlight tape, you've got a special player. And that's a way, again, to...

suss out like, wait, who are the guys that are competitors, you know, and talk about the multi-sport thing. The Point of Attack tape is a way to tell that too. I mean, it's on there, man. You find out pretty quick. But I think...

When you're doing it, but the highlight tape is just sort of, that's like the headline. That's like your entry point into the player. And I think, again, you can't do all that other stuff for... as many kids as as you can watch a highlight tape for so that you you know you you sort of refine and and filter you know filter the group down and and the

The higher they get on the board and the heavier we're recruiting them, the more data, information, and sort of exposures we need of them. Because it's just like, again, going back to my old days. when I was recruiting, hey, or doing the media stuff, you're, in that world, you're ranking, what, 5,000 kids a year. And and so there's a little bit of you have to do some some projecting and.

well here we're going to take 25 yeah you know you got to take 25 yeah and so you better just you better make sure it's the right 25 and that's the 25 is on the high end these days yeah um so it's uh Yeah, I think highlight tape's a starting point, and if you don't have a good highlight tape, then it's not for that CC. It's funny you mentioned the good, bad, ugly.

When I spent a couple years coaching at Arizona State, it was evaluating tight ends and offense alignment. And we used to do literally and call it the good, bad, ugly tape on every prospect. And one of the exercises they did was when it came down to, you know, we're throwing offers. When it comes down to if we're going to take a play or not, the position coach in front of all the other coaches had to watch the ugly tape and still say,

I sit on the table for this kid. And it really tested your conviction of like, after watching everyone saw the bad plays, do I still believe in that player? Because you're right. A lot of times there's some, there's some ugly stuff. That's right. That's right. You know, we were all high school.

Coolers once. My high school ugly tape wouldn't have been good. That's right. Highline tape was good. And I think it's interesting. If you look at an ugly tape, I think some coaches may not. That exercise.

would be interesting because you know what is the ugly you can't you can't afford to take is it this is this guy looks slow or is it this this guy has taken plays off or yeah he's not a competitor you know i think that's the um you know where are you compromising i think every program's gonna be a little different yeah no it's it's uh it's interesting how you get to the actual you know

evaluation of who you're taking and who you're not. And on that note, I want to ask about deciding how many high school players versus transfer portal players versus, I mean... Juco seems like a lost art nowadays. That's been an important piece for a lot of programs around the country. How do you kind of decide what the breakdown is going to be? Because in some senses...

Some would say that if you're building a program for long-term success, you've got to have that foundation of high school kids. But then you've got to keep them in your program if you're going to take them versus the transfers. Well, you know, we felt, again, You go back to the beginning of our time here. It was sort of we felt like we believed in the value of recruiting high school players, developmental high school players, retaining the roster.

And sort of building them into these SEC caliber players. We believe in that. And there was also not at that stage for us, there wasn't a lot of other options. And so we better have believed in that. What we've gotten to at this point is, two years ago, we played a lot of freshmen, played a lot of young guys. And a big chunk of the young guys that we played, that was a year we didn't have a lot of success that year, but we also sort of made some bets on some young guys.

Some of those guys ended up leaving after the year. And so we felt the sting of that a little bit. And, you know, that was the cycle we went really hard portal. and hit and found some really good players. And really, we felt like as a program, pretty significantly upgraded our roster by attacking the portal.

you know we we were a pretty heavy portal team this year again um now we we this year the we were fairly heavy portal while also you know i think doing a really good job of retaining pretty much everybody that was that impacted um winning last year for us so so it was a nice balance in that way obviously we graduated some guys um but uh

You know, we retained the roster we wanted to retain, and then we went and got the guys we needed to get. And so I think this is a long way of me saying it really is a year-by-year assessment. I think in a perfect world... Every school wants to be able to recruit four- and five-star players, and they're the next up, and they're in your program, and you kind of can spot transfer portal one or two guys here and there.

But that's just not going to be the way it shakes out every year. And so I think, I mean, but again, this year we're going to be, you know, this 26, 27 cycle will be a little less portal heavy. I mean, I think we'll... bring in a bigger high school class this cycle. Last cycle, we had brought in the smallest high school class in the country in Power 4. And that was actually intentional. We saw that as what we needed to do.

But so I think both both feeling the rhythm and the and the momentum you've got. on the field and in recruiting, being able to maximize that and sort of pull the levers where you need to, but also understanding where you're at as a roster. I think those things kind of goes back to the art, not science.

whatever you want it to look like, you better address what it needs to look like. And I think that's what we've really identified the last two or three cycles. You're living in the NIL transfer portal. trenches every single day what do you think nil revenue sharing looks like a year from now i mean you have revenue sharing and as you as you've mentioned really a salary cap for college football but you also have outside the CAP NIL that is not sanctioned by the school, but...

As you know, every school around the country is trying to figure out how can they get incrementally above the $20.5 million cap. And then you have the College Sports Commission denying collective deals.

What do you think it all looks like? How does this thing kind of... It seems like there's progress being made, but how does it get a little more standardized where, as you said, you can make some decisions on what the roster actually looks like? Yeah, I mean... i think now listen here's the reality like this has been um like this has been a challenging job these last couple cycles um and

There's been some real moments of like pain in that. And I mean, I'm talking like you're the post 2020, like winter of 23. 223, 24. I'm sitting, you know, we're sitting there in December and I'm wondering if we're going to be able to field a team, you know, like it's just, it was.

and then you know we clawed our way out and we and we figured it out and um but like those moments are like really difficult moments and so it's been a challenge and and and there's so much about this system right now that's really frustrating and really difficult to navigate manage and yet like i fully acknowledge that the circumstances and the climate is actually what's

allowed Vanderbilt to sort of find some footing and like us to surge a little bit. We last year, hopefully we'll be able to build on that this year. So, you know, it's. This has all been a net positive for Vanderbilt football. And yet, I think ultimately, what do I think it's going to look like? What do I want it to look like? I think...

I don't know if those are competing or not. If we have rules that are enforceable, then then that's all you can really ask for and and i don't know how enforceable the rules are right now um and i know that i know that um Congressional help would certainly iron a few of these rough edges out. Whether that's realistic, I think we're in the process of finding out. I think certainly like the settlement was a good starting point and we're all going to have to abide by it.

but, but everyone's competitive. And so everyone's, everyone's looking for angles. And if you're not, you know, and so it's just, it's just this, at the end of the day, like what I, what I'm looking for, what I'm hoping for is just. just structure you know just give us the rules and then like and then can't enforce them and then i think as much as this college sports commission that's tasked with enforcing

the rules that are being implemented, like that's as big of a, yeah, that's a tough job. And if, and if, and if it can, if they can execute that job, that's as important as anything. As soon as, as soon as someone actually gets. hammered for coloring outside the lines.

i mean that's gonna that's gonna do wonders for for just bringing everything back in because i think i think everyone is in my shoes and my uh shares my perspective like let's just let's all agree to play but let's all have rules and play by them um and yet everyone's going to continue to do whatever they can to stretch because you have to to survive. And so I think that's the challenge.

it's this it's this really different i mean like i i think um like i don't blame it like i think what's interesting is like um have you ever heard the grapes of wrath um like there's the the grapes of wrath there's like it's like the this idea of um this this i'm not i'm not even gonna go this is this is so so ridiculous like

there's no one's fault, you know, like this thing is this, this thing is this runaway train. And like, it's like, everyone's just, just part of this, this ecosystem that's trying to operate within it. And so you can't actually pin blame on anybody. But at the end of the day, like until somebody, until we're able to like to all collectively like find common ground to decide to play all the same rules, like it's, you know, the train is going to keep on running. I wanted to ask you about.

recruiting rankings because there's this narrative in the coaching world that like recruiting rankings don't matter what 247 and on three arrivals have to say doesn't matter but as someone who

lived in it and also talks to like coaches they definitely matter and they definitely have a role i mean you know even just like the bias of when you first see a kid's film and he's already a four star and i'm like okay like he must be decent you know um and then also like

Everyone's fighting to have the highest ranked recruiting class. No one wants to have a terribly ranked recruiting class no matter when it comes out. But with your background, given that you were probably the leader, the biggest name in recruiting rankings and recruiting media. How much weight do you put into recruiting rankings now? Or how much do you care how your former colleagues rank your recruiting class? I'm sure that's a funny dynamic. Yeah, I...

Honestly, I would actually rather our guys be ranked lower in a lot of cases because I want less hangers on. schools coming in offering them just because they're ranked high like i'd rather you know yeah we we know what we like and we'd rather um you know but but i think there is i think where where you see it is like it does create momentum like when you have a highly ranked player or a highly ranked class like people point at it and whether it's real or not like it's sort of this this

it does create, um, it just, it just creates momentum. And I think, so that, that can be impactful. Um, nowadays, you know, there, you, you, sort of hear it from the nil piece it's like well he should be paid this because he's ranked that and it's like oh okay well you know that's that's not actually how we do it but um and so i think that's that's a complicating factor um

And so I think, but I mean, no, we don't, you know, we truly don't spend time. We don't sort players by what they're ranked. We don't offer players. based on what they're ranked. But I do have a lot of respect, obviously, for those people and how hard they were. Because I think that's probably the thing that fans don't understand and even coaches don't understand. how much pride those guys actually take in it and how important it is for them to try to get it right.

and how impossible it is. I mean, can you imagine? I mean, you're trying to rank basically every football player in America. Crazy. And, you know, yeah, you're going to get something wrong and you're going to get something right. So, but it's, I think for me, it's just, it's really not in any part of our process. And I think if anything, like...

The more you're able to sort of remove biases from your decision making, you want to do that as much as you can in all areas, not just with rankings or anything else. It's just like, how can we make decisions? devoid of any kind of preconceived bias you know like what's how do we best like isolate you know the important factors and certainly like in terms of whether they're going to play here that's not

That's not an important factor. I would even go so far as to say, as we've studied Vanderbilt, and this is specific to Vanderbilt now because it's not an indictment on the rankings industry, but specific to Vanderbilt, highly ranked players that have come here i'm talking about historically um historically have not had a high hit rate and i think i think part of that is around like um

Again, Vanderbilt historically is not a sort of a blue blood program. And so a highly ranked player oftentimes I think would go to Vanderbilt because maybe some of the other guys maybe wouldn't take them. i think it's just important like to for us to make sure that we like are aware of those sort of things before we we let something like that influence a decision because once they're here they're ours and again

The misses are the problems. I remember even during my few coaching years of when the recruiting industry would come out with Not just the rankings, but actually the scouting reports on these guys. And I would read them. I would sometimes mention them to our staff. Like, hey, check out what Martin Simmons said about this player. And, you know, the narrative on the staff is like, why are we listening to these guys? I'm like, you realize that?

these guys saw him in person like three times we haven't seen him in person one time there's at least some value in that and and they think about how as you said the volume of players they're seeing like there's something that we should take out of at least what they said and i think One of the things that I'm fortunate that I have is that network of people. For me, it's way less about, hey, let's...

We got our guys that are going to be connected to us in our mission, talking about our recruits, that are going to fit what we're looking for. And where they fall in the rankings is a little bit immaterial to me. If, hey, one of my guys that I know, one of the people in the media space that I know just saw him work out somewhere, one of the guys that we're considering offering or one of the guys that's on our board.

Absolutely. I really value those guys in here. Hey, what did you see? What did you think? What did you think about these two guys? I think that, because those guys... Those guys make a living at it, and they work hard at it, and they're trying to hone their craft too. And so I do really value their opinion. What's your best Clark Lee story that tells us who he is as a head coach?

I'm sure you have a lot of stories. I see Laura back here popping in her head. I'm like, oh. She's getting nervous? Yeah. You know, there's... We have... A lot of our stories, first of all, my line to recruits that I say about Clark is that I'm the only guy in the building. that knows where the bodies are buried, that knows his skeletons in his closet. Still here. Because...

In his adult life, he doesn't have any skeletons. So if you're going to find the skeletons in his closet, you've got to go back to high school. That's about the last time when he actually didn't have it all together. Because none of us had it all together in high school. And amazingly...

because you would never believe it now because of how like professorial and sophisticated he is but you know he he was he was an idiot like everybody in high school you know just like me and everyone else so i think you know um A lot of my stories are probably not fit for the public. But, you know, it's funny how, like, those, you know, the moments that... you know we always kind of bust chops about like they'll live on forever you know like um

One was we were playing a Hoop It Up tournament with like a three-on-three. I don't know if you were old enough for Hoop It Up. Hoop It Up was like this national three-on-three basketball tournament. They go to different cities. And Clark was on my team. He, you know, it was a three-on-three tournament, and he showed up late, and we had to play the first two games two-on-three. And so, like, forever, like, that's like my, you know, he was.

He was late then. He's still late now. He takes his time in conversations, and he's not going to short anybody's attention, even all the way back then, including missing. And then the other thing that I think is funny, is like, to this day, his dad used to work for the Nashville Sounds, the minor league baseball team. He was a team physician.

I would go to the sounds games with him some. And I remember one night after the sounds game, we were coming back with he and his dad and we stopped at Crystal.

and and you know about crystal no crystal if you're a white castle yeah yeah okay so that's like this other version of white castle yeah and uh and we ordered and i remember it it's so funny how you remember these things and uh and clark and his dad ordered their their six crystals or whatever and i got a deluxe chicken sandwich and you know they thought it was like the most

pretentious order in their life it was like man we're blue collar guys we order crystal crystal and he's got a deluxe chicken sandwich and you know it's that's sort of like that's clark you know he's got a chip on his shoulder he's gritty he'll be damned you're going to order a deluxe chicken sandwich at crystal in front of him and his dad was the same way so that that's sort of that's like our relationship growing up is just kind of that that level of like

You know, back and forth. It's got to be cool to be sitting here now, though, and, like, watching him lead the team. Yeah. This is the guy that was late to the 2-on-3 tournament. I swear, it really is, like... It's a real lesson, honestly, because I'm serious when I say like if you were in high school and I were to pick out of my 15 best friends, which one was going to be the head coach of SEC football team.

he would have been number 15 you know basically and and yet like and i really when he was at vanderbilt when in college like you just started to see that him just like hone in and like dial in and just become super focused and disciplined and And then somewhere along the way, I looked up and I barely recognized him anymore in terms of just the way he thought, the way he, you know, his level of focus and commitment and really intelligence.

He's built himself into this. I've had an opportunity to be around a lot of coaches through my career based on just the media stuff that I would do. He's the most impressive guy I've ever been around, which is weird to say it because I grew up with him doing all these idiot stuff in high school, but now he's become this guy that's just incredible. That's awesome. Last question for you. What does success look like?

here at Vanderbilt for you and for this program? Winning a national championship. And I think, you know, people probably... I know that I know for a fact that when I took this job and when Clark took this job, the assumption was like, you know, hey, hope you don't get fired in a couple of years or hey, you know, it's it's. It might be great if you sneak in a couple bowls here. It's like this really just sort of hope you do good for Vanderbilt kind of mentality. But if you really look at the...

The climate of college football, you look at Vanderbilt being in an incredible city in a time when actually being in a metropolitan area with access to businesses and partnerships and connectors. actually counts for something material. When you look at being in the SEC, which continues to be the premier conference in college football, you look at both this incredible school. An opportunity, but also this like a this an admin that is is actually embracing.

athletics and embracing football in a way it hasn't before. So academics is not a barrier for us. It's an accelerator. When you look at those things and you look in a world with access to NIL, you know, the ability to build rosters in ways that we didn't have access to before. I mean, I just, I don't know what...

What keeps this place from being the best in college football? I don't know what it is. I'd love for someone to, other than just that it hasn't happened before, what is keeping Vanderbilt from... accelerating to become regular national title contenders and and obviously we got a long way to go to do that and so um you know i don't i don't want to at all act like um somehow we've arrived because we haven't um but i think you know we've we've sort of we're taking steps um we're making progress

I think the foundation of the first three years has been really important to giving us a launch point. And we got to make every year count. But I really do believe that... This is a place that has all the materials you need to win at the very highest level. And, you know, if I didn't feel that way. I wouldn't be here. I really wouldn't. I think that's what's in my heart, and I know that's what's in Clark's heart.

It feels good to feel like we're chasing something that's not a compromise. I think we're chasing it all. Yeah, I love it. Well, congrats on the success last season. I know it's not where you guys want to be, but it was a big step and been fun following the journey of the last few years for you. And I appreciate having us out here. This is fun. No, man. Hey, I'm glad we made the cut. I appreciate you getting here and, you know, you're welcome anytime. Appreciate it. Thank you so much.