Wonder Woman: Laverne Cox

and spend some time with us. I've interviewed Laverne before, and she is so smart, she's compassionate, she's thoughtful, she's extraordinarily well versed on the issues, and per usual, it was a real treat talking to her today. Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, like a lot of people, I was first introduced to her in her role as Sophia on Netflix's show or in Just the New Black, which is one of my favorite shows. She's one of my

favorite characters. I just love her in that show. And she's also been in some reality shows like I Want to Work for Ditty, which is something you know, one of your favorite shows that was on v H one back in two thousand eight. Yeah, these people just got to live my dream Anyway, if you know Laverne, you likely also know that she's transgender. She's a prominent spokeswoman and activist for l g B t Q causes, and she actually helped to inspire you, Katie, to make your

documentary on gender for National Geographic. That's right, she did, and as you'll hear in the course of our conversation, it was all because of an encounter we had on my talk show a few years ago, and she has since really become my guiding light as I've set out on a journey to understand and educate myself about transgender issues. And I think this conversation is for everyone, but for our listeners who need a primer or even just a refresher on being trans in America what it means, I'd

highly recommend watching Katie's documentary Gender Revolution. I'd say that even if you weren't my Brian, my co host, or you could check out the corresponding episode of this pod cast, which is number nineteen from back in February of last year. We began our conversation this morning in Los Angeles by talking about how Laverne and I met about four years ago.

We have an interesting backstory if you will, so just for our listeners, And I'm not embarrassed to talk about it because I think it's important to ollan the fact that I screwed up and what I learned from my mistakes. With your help, but a few years ago on my talk show is doing something with the right spirit of trying to help people understand transgender issues, which really wasn't being talked about very much at that moment in time. I think was back in two thousand and fourteen, and

not four years ago. I know it was that crazy years ago this this month. Actually it aired four years ago this month. Well, Carmen Career came on the show. Carmen Career as a trans model, and she was interested in being the first Victoria's Secrets trans model. And she came on and in a very awkward and inappropriate moment, I asked her about her private parts. You're still your your Your private parts are different now, aren't they. I don't want to talk about it because it's it's still

it's really personal, and I don't know. I didn't quite understand how offensive that was to someone. Of course, it would be offensive if someone asked me, and clearly it was offensive to Carmen of you know, understandably. So Laverne saved the day and came out and we had a conversation about it. But it really exploded in the trans community. People were really upset about it, angry with me, and

it was mortifying and I was so embarrassed. And later on in the season, Laverne came back and we actually sat down and had a long conversation about why that was so inappropriate. And I remember the producer's Laverne, they did not want me to do that. They were like, no, don't talk about it. I said, no, I want to talk about it. Tell me your impressions when you saw Twitter exploding with all that venom towards me. I'm just curious what your reaction was, Katie, Oh, it was. It's

such as that was an intense timing. You're taking me back. First of all, I want to say that publicists producers often say don't talk about something and that, and that if you talk about an issue that controversy, that it sort of perpetuates and so, but then when you don't talk about it, then there we don't really get a

chance to have the educational moment. We don't get to have the teachable moment is the way you you put it at the time, and so I was so excited that you were willing and open to talk about it. And I think about the moments I've had, because we think when you're a public figure, you're constantly putting yourself out there, and you're going to quote unquote make mistakes or get things wrong and upset people, and that's deeply,

deeply painful. And I felt that. I felt that even though we weren't talking, I felt like how painful it was for you um to be going through that and to have the courage to be on television and to say I made a mistake and what can we do to rectify that? It's like so hard to do and it's so painful. But I think that, and as I saw the speech I made in London at the Attitude Awards about that's for me feels like this model of

how we can go forward. It's going to be painful, it's going to hurt, but if we can be accountable and be teachable, then we can begin to model that for other people. So when it all happened, though at the time, what was exciting for me is that my whole life. I've been watching UM TV talk to have done presentations about TV talk shows that have since the fifties and sixties have having conversations about trans people and reduced, not even necessarily reducing us to surgeries and transition and

body parts. But what I said on the show is when we focus on that, that becomes the only takeaway. But because because it sensationalizes our identities, and having watched those interviews over the year, I've never really seen anyone on television pushed back and say maybe we should be having a different conversation. So what was really exciting for me is that Karmen and I got the opportunity to UM to talk back and say maybe we should be

having a different conversation. And so I think when I saw Twitter exploding, what was exciting for me is is that because of social media and because of that moment, Carmen and I were to have with you because you we pre shot that so you didn't actually have to air that, right. That's that's that's actually a little interesting factoid about the whole situation. You know, my producer said, do you want to take that out? Because you know it made me look foolish and and and deservedly so.

And I said, no, keep it in because I think it's a maybe a question that other people would have asked or at least thought about. And I want people to understand that being a trans person is much more than your anatomy, you know, it has has very little to do with it. And of course I've been so educated since Laverne because of my documentary. But I also think the conversation has changed. I feel, I mean, certainly there's there people have there's still an educational thing that

still needs to happen around trans folks. Is someny misunderstandings and misconceptions about it. But I feel like with journalists now it's different. I feel it's really different. And so that moment feels really pivotal. And I'm I'm so grateful to you for that moment. I'm grateful that you didn't edit it out. I'm grateful to the community who pushed back. And I'm sure it was really painful for you the

way in which some some folks in my community pushed back. Um, but sometimes that's a necessary part of it, is I mean, it is interesting when it comes to a social movement sort of you have to bottle up and release that anger, and I think it's part of the process, but I so appreciate it. You mentioned that speech that you gave it the Attitudes Inspiration Award last fall. We actually pulled a clip because it was so nice and I was so grateful of Earns. So let's listen for a second.

It important that we begin to look for models of transformation and encourage that, and when the way we got there with Katie is that I was willing to have conversations with her with love and empathy. I do not believe that we can get to that transformation by publicly shaming people. And so for people who didn't watch these shows and didn't follow this controversy as closely as some did, particularly in the trans community, what do you think of the key lessons that people who are not trans can

take away from that back and forth? For people who aren't trans, I mean, I think, I mean, there's so many things. Um part of part of it, I think is the love and empathy piece that's so often every what I've learned, especially over the last years, that not everyone is coming from a place of good intentions. I think with Katie, it was clear that you were you have great, good intentions and it's got some things a

little off. And so then when the intentions are clear, that we can begin to approach people with love and empathy and find way ways to communicate our message better. And I'm sure with that approach, I mean, can you feel when you change hearts and minds? Do people say to you, you know, thank you? I under I mean, I I've been one of those people. Can you see their hearts opening up and their minds changing with this approach I have, I have, and and learning doesn't always

happen in the moment. It often it's incremental. But I think, I mean, part of what I get to do as an artist too, is that when you as an actor, that's the work of being an actor is having empathy, having empathy for a character, characters that I play. I can never sort of approach a character with like I

don't like this person. I always have to find a way, even if the character has done some reprehensible things, to empathize with her um and find a way in So that's the work of being an artist is to is to have empathy and love for the characters I play into hopefully convey that to audiences, and so that's the work that I do as an artist, and so I think that hopefully we'll translate into the work I do elsewhere. Being an artist is what informs everything that I do.

And UM, they're the legacy of revolutionary artists. Progressive artists, through their work and their activism, have proceeded that way, and so I have a wonderful legacy to look to. We've seen a similar journey of understanding happen around the issue of marriage equality. UM. Understanding around trans issues is probably a little bit behind where marriage quality is, but that was maybe the fastest social change in America than

anybody can remember. Part of it had to do with the change in calling it marriage equality as opposed to gay marriage. How you talk about it, how you kind of find the way into people who are maybe instinctually not as understanding or haven't come across these people as much as you know as much as some others. Um, do you think there are things that the trans community has done or still needs to do in order to make further progress. There's a lot that we have to do.

And UM, there's fewer trans people than there are a game lesbian people. UM. The way the way you've alluded to change in the conversation from quote unquote gay marriage to marriage equality. Having the conversation differently it's key, and that's a lot of what I'm the work that I'm trying to do is to shape the conversation in a different way. But I mean, trans people are under attack

right now in this country. There's we connect there's just the list of like really legislative things that are happening, policy things that are happening around with ending you know, guidelines for trans kids, um, anti trans bathroom bills introduced in state legislatures all over the country, transfolk stums. There's a fight for us to be able to serve openly in the military right now. Um it really it goes

on and on and on. There's t seventeen with the deadliest year on record for trans people in trans of being murdered. Um our lives are on the line. So a lot of it is about it's an intersectional issue. So when we talk about trans stuff, and it gets complicated because it's not just a gender thing, it's a race thing, it's a class thing. It's an act this education, it's an access to housing and jobs and so all of those things sort of are diminishing our left dances.

Sexual assault. I was going to say, it's it's a crying thing, and I want to talk about intersexuality. I want to talk about sort of being under assault in this Trump administration, in the current policy in a second. But before we do that, Laverne, I want to talk about your story, your life story, because it's so fascinating and I'm sure was harroin when you were younger. You were born in Mobile, Obama, you were raised by a single mom. You never met your dad. Um, I met

my dad once. You did when you were how old? Um? I think I was in third grade. I was in third grade. Do you remember that? I do. I'm not going to talk about it, really. I think there's some things, the whole circumstances leading up to that that we're really really painful. And I've worked through all that with my mom, and so I don't respect to my mother and my family.

I can't talk about all I totally understand. But yes, once I met my my logical product you had and I you have an identical twin brother, yes, and just just one brother, just one sibling. Yeah, And um, I'm just curious what it was like growing up. I think about you and Mobile, Alabama. I know you attempted suicide when you were eleven years old. Paint a picture for us, leave learn about what life was like. I mean, I have a lovely therapist now. She reminds me often that

it's both and so like. Yes, I was bullied. Um. I was chased home from school practically every day, and kids wanted to beat me up. I got beaten up a lot. I was a very fast runner. I didn't feel safe anywhere. But I was also a really creative kid. I started dancing when I walked, and I begged my mother to put me into dance classes, and finally, when I was in third grade, she found a free program where I could study dance. And that I believe that

dancing saved my life. I did. I have quit wrap dance routines and like competed in talent shows all over the Southeast, and there's still trophies in my house back in Alabama. He said, I know you have said it saved your life. Yeah. Being creative and I was a good student. I've read constantly. We were walking distance from the Mobile Public Library, so I was at the library all the time reading I was, I was a total nerd as smart as you are. He's probably smarter, really,

he's smarter. My brother is brilliant. He's really really smart. Um. And by the way, if you haven't watched or Just a New Black, you can meet LaVerne's brother. He's definitely playing a character though. My brother is punk rock and god he was. He defines find himself as a practicing him, a sexual who is Negro goth, punk rock, um and a free black man. He's um, He's a he's he's a musician and an artist and his work is very in Lamar is his name in lamar dot com. If

people care about his work. He really sort of hates. He hates that he didn't Orange A New Black because people It's so funny because if you google most famous, well known trans people, there's like before. People always want to see what trans people like before, and people have a photo of my brother and then me said by side, I'm like, that's kind of hilarious. But they have a photo of him from or Just a New Black, and he doesn't even look like that in real Lafe. Here

it's like eyeliner or any long hair. But that's the character he played. That's the character he played. Yeah, my character pre transition. But but when when did you When did you start struggling with your gender identity? I you do you remember from the very he didn't. It wasn't a struggle for me. It was a struggle for everybody else.

I was all. I was always feminine, I was always you know, I really thought that boy, there was no difference between boys and girls, cause everyone was telling me I was a boy, and I knew that I was a girl, so I didn't think there were any differences. And then there was a therapy moment in third grade. I've talked about this little talked about this a lot.

My third grade teacher, Miss Ridgeway. I called my mother on the phone and say, your son will end up in New Orleans wearing your dress if you don't get him to therapy right away. So I went to therapy, and there was there was this whole sort of I guess we would call it reparative therapy around my gender expression at the time that was trying to trying to fix me. And up until that time, I didn't think that there was really a difference between boys and girls.

I knew that I was being bullied. I knew that people were um. People called me all kinds of anti gay slurs. They called me a girl, and I think, I said, said, the interesting the irony of my life is that before I transition, kids called me a girl, and after I transition, people call me a man um And so, my gosh, it was just it was intense, but I feel like was everyone else's problem I and

then it became and it's something I internalized. I internalized a tremendous amount of transphobia and I was like, I can't be this. And it wasn't until I moved to New York and met real trans people that I was able to accept trans people and then accept myself. But it was a problem for everybody else. Leante and Price my idol. She's an offer singer and she when she talks about race, she said, it's not it's not the black people's problem, it's everybody else's problem. And that's really

how I see it with with the gender stuff. And I think for for me, I had to sort of get find access to medical care and find ways to survive because it's hard. It's as smart as you think. On my be I was working in a restaurant, a drag queen restaurant before Orange the New Black sort of became a sensation and or in New York City. And I have a college degree and I was writing, you know, articles for Huffing Compost, and I kind of a smart chick. But a lot of people wouldn't have hired me. You know,

I couldn't really get a job. There's a lot of people who wouldn't have hired me. It's brilliant, as I might seem, um, And there's a lot there's a lot of trans people out there who are brilliant, who can't get jobs because they're trans. And you were inspired, at least in part by a trans woman named Candice Kane. For people in our audience who don't know who she is, can you describe her and tell her tell us the impact she had in your life. Candice Kane. I love

Candice Kane. Um. She's a New York City legend, and she's a trans woman. And a lot of people got to know horn Caitlyn Jenner's reality show I Am Kate, But before that, in two thousand and seven, she became the first openly transgender actress to have a recurring role in a prime time TV show, and their show is Dirty Sexy Money. That was eleven years ago, and that moment made me believe that it was possible to be

openly trance and have a career as an actor. I've been At this point, I had a degree in dance. I studied acting and dance in college. I had done a number of independent films and been and just been going to acting class every week, you know, and turning and turned to student Susan Batson studio in New York City, and I mopped the floors and answered the phone, so I can get acting classes for free. Thank you, Susan. It's had a little scholarship. And so it was being

an actress something I've been. I committed myself to, you know, just and just doing the grind in New York, doing the off railway theater or student films or whatever I could do, just to work. And when I saw that moment from Candice, I was like, this is the moment, and that I sent out postcards. I love this story. By the way, was this sending out postcards from New York or from mobile? It was I was in New York, Okay,

So it's already in New York. I went to college in New York and Um sent out postcards to agents and casting director. It's like five and I was like, Laverne Cox is the answered all your transender acting? Because I mean there was sort of a niche for being trans and being an actor. Not a lot of great parts at the time, but there were there was something mostly sex workers and crying victims. Um. It's not funny,

but it kind of is. UM. And then the manager that I have now to this day, pa Heloppo, is one of the four meetings I got from that those five postcards. That's amazing. I mean, that's a real lesson, by the way, an ingenuity and persistence and just putting yourself out there that you sent all these postcards out and you got four meetings from the meetings. I had a commercial agent for a minute that didn't work out, but then I got a legit acting agent. Um. Pa

Heloppo is my agent for many years now. He's my manager, and he saw something in me. And for there were many years I didn't work at all. Over the eleven years that we've been together. That would be like, my guys, why had he not dropped me? You know? If you have an agent, you have a client and they're not working. But he just saw something and then he stuck with me and it's kind of worked out well. It certainly has.

I mean, you did a number of appearances on Lawn Order, I know, and then you did some reality shows, some independent films. You produced a documentary, produced a couple of documentary and one one in particular about the lives of seven trans children. I've seven trans youth um the time they were between the ages of twelve and twenty four. I'm so proud of all of them right now. Um Zoe Luna just had her HBO show about her KISA.

She's she was twelve when we interviewed her. Shane hen Niece has been in and a Kinneth cole ad and he got a full scholarship to Columbia at grad school after the Tea World. I'm just oh, I can't anyways, all of them are really fantastic and I'm so proud

of all of them. Think I mean again, I know, I know, I'm kind of like totally fan girling on poor Laverne, but think about what you were able to do for these young people by helping them adjust, by giving them attention and by kind of launching their careers. I think what we I try not to be too arrogant about what I did. I think what we were able to do with Laverne Costumes and the tea where and you can watch the documentary on on YouTube or on Logo TV, is that we gave them a platform

and tell their stories. And then UM, with that, what were they able to do on top of that? What I learned, and I had this conversation with every one of them, that this is an opportunity for you to have a platform. Now it's time to hustle. And what I learned from having done reality TV when I did a show called I Want to Work for Ditty in two thousand and eight, and that was UM that's directly because of Candice Cane. That was the next year because I sort of put myself out there in a new way.

I learned that reality television was a platform. But then now it was time for me to hustle and to um really capitalize on that. And so that's what I've I've tried to do in a way that's respectful to myself and to the art and what I want to do. UM. But that was what I said to the young people, So then it was on them. But I mean, let's be honest, giving them a platform change their worlds. I hope, so,

I hope, so I will. Shane has told me that it has, and a few of the young people have told me that it has been transformative for them, So that that makes me happy. Let's take a quick break. We'll be back with more of our fascinating conversation with this week's wonder Woman, Laverne Cox. And now back to our conversation with Laverne Cox. Your big break when most people in this country first clapped eyes on Laverne Cox was when you got the role on Orange, just the

New Black. How did that come about and how has that changed your life? It's funny because right before I booked Orange, I was thinking maybe I was done acting. Maybe I'd been a number of independent films that've done some TV, and I's thinking maybe I was done and hadn't booked anything for going on a year. We're still working in the restaurant. I still working at Lucky Change

the restaurant every week. And then I got the audition and I did two scenes, one from the pilot episode of orange and one from the episode three, the famous duct tape flip flops um seen from season one. In fact, I'm glad you mentioned that because we have a clip from that since you did the perfected with this. All right, well let's listen to you. We'll just remind people I made my own commer. Don't Carrious last their team due

me italics are very in the season. I remember that scene so well, Laverne, when you heard about this role, were you just thinking, oh God, this is going to be so fantastic? Were you trufidacious? You know. I was at an event with my manager Paul, and he said, I have an audition for you. It's set in a women's prison. You're a hairdresser and women's for women's prison.

I was like, that sounds it sounded really intriguing. He said it was a web series and this is so there were no streaming television shows, there were web series. So I was just like, okay, a web series. Cool. And then I got the pilot scripts and it was brilliant and um Gingi Cohen. I was a huge fan of Weeds, like huge and I love her by the way, I love her too, A creator and exactly and then I, um did the audition, got the part. I was screaming. I was on this treat and I started screaming, and

I was hopeful that people might watch it. But I was just so excited to be working. I was I dedicated my life to being an actor, and it's a really hard thing to do, to be an artist, and so I was just happy to have a job. And then it turned into this thing where like episode three was my character's backstory and Jodie Foster was directing, and that was a dream come true. And um, did you have a moment when you thought, Wow, this is really clicking,

this is this is something special season one? It was just what I love about Season one of our show is that it was so about the work, and I was just so excited to do the work to really

that I've been training for all these years. And then there was a moment I think episode and it's the rat battle scene, episode six or so of season one, and I looked around and it was room full of women of all ages and backgrounds and sexual orientations and and I'm in the middle there, and I just was like, this is the coolest thing I've ever seen in my life. I don't know if anybody's gonna wash it or care, but this is awesome and I did honestly think anybody

would watch it. I knew it was good and special, but I just had never seen anything like it, and so I was like, where does this fit in the marketplace? You know? And then it's on Netflix. I was just my my dream really was. I was like, I hope casting directors watch it and see that I can act, and maybe I'll get another job. That was my real People didn't think of Netflix is the behe meth that it's become, spending seven billion dollars a year on content

and all the rest. But let me ask you, since you first appeared and broke through on that show, how do you think opportunities for transactors have changed? Gosh, it's a it's a mixed bag. When I talked to my transplants who are actors, there are more roles than there used to be in the roles are different. Um. I'm so excited about Ryan Murphy's news show Post is coming out of this summer. There's six transgender series regular unlesshow all trans women of color and they're so talented. Um,

and what is it about. It's about the ballroom community in New York City in the nineteen eighties, like that movie Paris Is Burning if you saw that, it's about these balls that are sort of competitions where people vogue and people sort of have different categories like realness and faith, et cetera. So it's the sort of drag trans lgbt Q balls of color that Madonna's vote comes out of

that community. And it's really when um our current president was building all these huge buildings and so that you know, New York was changing a lot in the late eighties as well, So that that's the backdrop of the of the of pose which is so excited about it. So that's exciting for for people in the trans community. But

how has it been a mixed bag? Well, there's still a lot of casting ritchers aren't calling us stand for roles that are not trans. Well that's the thing, right, is the real victory going to be when you don't have to play a trans person but you get to play a woman. I just get to play characters and it doesn't and the gender identity doesn't matter. I think

that is the victory. More opportunities and I think but there's so many trans stories that need to be told as well, and so more trans folks directing and writing and working behind the scenes is actually really crucial to to pose his credit. There's two to right trans writers, and there's some trans people directing and working on the crew. Um of a show I did and CBS called Doubt,

we had a trans writer. And I have a show um in development at ABC now called Spirited, Um that is not a trans character, and um that's the lead of So hopefully that that pilot will be in the pipeline. It's but you feel like they're You feel like you need to have both both stories of trans people but also trans people being cast without regard to their gender. Because if you're right for the part, it shouldn't matter. I've always said, if it doesn't involve minstrual cycles or pregnancy,

I should be able to play it. And then the question is does the character become trans when I play the character. I'm as a black actress, whenever I play a character, the character becomes black. And do it just the character become trans when I play her, even if it's not written that way. UM, So that's an interesting question that will so that we'll see. Well to that point, you have cis gendered men, that is, people who were born as men playing a signed mail at birth, assigned

mail at birth and identify as male. Thank you for them being cast as trans women. Yes, I e. Jeffrey Tambor on Transparent, although you know he made Jared Letto, I E Eddie Redmain. Who are you know? UM? I was about to say, all lovely people, but now how do you feel about that? Though you know, um, there is certainly a push now in UM, in the trans community and beyond to cast trans people to play trans characters. Transmpone jobs I said earlier than our employment rate is

about four times in national average UM. And Jen Richard's a brilliant writer actress. She argues that when sphysically, when cis gender men, non transgender men are cast to play transferred to women at least to violence against us because it sends the message that, she contends, that trans women are really men. So Jared Letto beautifully plays this trans character in Dallas Bias Club and then arrives at the

Oscars and Golden Globes with a beard. And so folks men who find themselves attracted to trans women then see this guy with a beard amidst in this message, their trans women are really not women at all, but men, and so she contends that that leads to balance against So I think the other piece of that is that men who are attracted to trans women need to deal

with their internalized homaphobia and transphobia. What's been so exciting for me as a transactress playing a transparacter and Orange a New Black is that people have audience members have not just empathized with the character that I played, but they find themselves empathizing with the actors who plays her, and so there's been so much I think it's inarguable that there's been so much change because of that part that I got to play, and people connecting with this

character and then connecting with the actress on a human level. Well, think how much how many people have been educated by Sophia, right, I mean, it broke through this whole notion of gender identity and it just got right to the heart of the person, which can I think is the most persuasive

tool possible. Right, you have to be able to see people as human beings, and I think, according to a study from Glad of Folks, in the United States do not know someone trans and so what what we you and the media is how folks get to know trans folks exactly. It's crucial. It's it's life saving and or or life threatening if the representation in the media does not accurately and multidimensionally depict who trans people really are. One of the people I featured in my documentary was

Gavin Graham. You can't see right now, but Laverne just kind of made a little prayer sign and held it up to her face because Gavin is an extraordinary person. How did you first get to know Gavin? I, you know, I became aware of his case in Gosh, and it would have been, um, we should say, by the way, background, by the way, guess Gavin came out as transgender in high school in Virginia. His county's school board said that he couldn't use the boys restroom. So apologies for the interruption,

but now that's fine. Um, well, initially he was allowed, and then parents found out and said we can't do this, and everything was fine. Gavin was going to the boys room, the kids didn't have any there was no issue. And then the school board finds out and sayest know what,

this can't happen, and they had a big hearing. By the way, and just just before we talk a little more about Gavin, we have a clip from what I thought was one of the most moving moments of my documentary is when, by the way, we didn't film it. It was when Gavin spoke before the school board and there was a whole group of people, and he was fifteen years old, and he was so composed and so extraordinary.

Let's listen to what he said. I've been aware of who I was since I was a very young kid, and it's taken me a very long time to be able to be myself and be okay with that. The person I am now being able to have all of my rights in full is such a massive dynamic difference from the person I was just last summer. I would like to say two of that. If the evidence said that me using the boy's room would be catastrophic, I would not be advocating for myself, regardless of my personal

emotions over this issue. I look only at the facts as one should in an issue that for poor separation of church and state and feelings of state. That clip makes me cry every time I hear at Laverne and so you heard about Gavin's situation. Did you reach out to him? I did, Actually, I really my friend Chaise Strangia,

who were the a c LU de Laurier. The a c l U is handling Gavin's case, and it was a major it was gonna be a major decision, or it was it would have been the first time the Supreme Court would have heard an issue about transgender rights. And so I sent him a video message and then we arranged to meet to meet Gavin. It was like a week after the Grammys a year ago, I remember, and I just I was moved by everything I had read about him and the videos I've seen about him,

and then he's when I met him. He's so smart and so calm and composed. It's amazing. I freak out. I mean, I just when I all think it's attention is on me and I get such anxiety, and he seems so calm and his mom um. It's amazing. I think it's over fifty percent of trans kids when they have families, art their lives are completely different in terms of positive outcomes for them being who they are. Because we should just mention how high the suicide rate is

among trans children and trans youth. Yeah, it's over over forty one of trans people have attempted suicide, and I think it's of trans youth have a have attempted suicide, and so it's I think sometimes people want to sort

of suggest that we're mentally ill. But if you live in a culture that tells you constantly and sends messages to you constantly that you are mentally ill, that you are a deviant, that you shouldn't exist, and that every message you're receiving constantly from everyone around you and from the media is that you shouldn't exist and that you are pariah, it is really hard to love yourself. It is really hard to think that you have a right

to exist. And that's what I want. That's what I want trans kids to know that you have a right to exist and that you're anointed, that you are beautiful, and that you're here for a reason, and that you have to find a to survive um so you can fulfill that reason for being here. The Supreme Court decided not to hear Gavin's kid They decided not to hear Gavin's kids because the current administration. The Justice Department rescinded the Obama you're a guideline around how transgender kids should

be treated in school. And and so when the Justice Department rescinded those guidelines, then there was no case. There was no case. What did those guidelines say the guys? So basically a lot of people thought they were about bathrooms, right, So they did say that, you know, trans kit should be able to use the bathroom that's consistent with their gender identity. But it also talked about prefer name, it talked about how other kids should treat them in school.

So it was a whole host of guidelines. It was really abou making making sure that trans kids were safe in schools and that they were treated in a way that was respectful to them so they could learn. Education is the reason I'm sitting here, and people should have safe schools. And that was just the first, I think thing that the Trump administration did that has started to

erode the progress that had heretofore been made before was selected. Yeah, not just for trans people, but for across the board the Justice Department. Even though people have to remember that the current administration has not been very successful legislatively, but in terms of the Justice Department. They have been very successful rolling back mandatory minimum so many um progressive things that the Obama administration um did, so we got to

continue to resist what. In fact, back in July, President Trump tweeted the transgender individuals will not be allowed to serve in the US military. Has that been implemented? So? Um, Remember that was so crazy because ostensibly President Trump had cleared this with his military leaders, but then they said he never talked to them, ostensibly meaning he didn't right

and then suddenly and then that changed, right. So after after the tweet, the guest Department of Defense got some policy together to basically try to ban on transiple And now, mind you, trans people have just been able to serve openly, barely, and it was something that like Obama, but luckily at this point to judges have said that this is unconstitutional and there's no reason to ban trans people. I think

it's probably gonna end up at the Supreme Court. So that meantime, what's happening to transgender people who are currently serving in the military. It's my from my understanding, they should be treated with kindness and respect. But again, it sends a message when the leader of the Free world. I feel that I use that term loosely. Now, UM, let the records show there are some more quotes tackling UM says that you shouldn't have a right to serve

your country. And what other things have happened in the last year Laverne that have really kind of put trans people in the crosshairs? UM. I think over twenty states have passed about fifty pieces of legislation that basically criminalized trans people using the bathroom that is consistent with their gender agentity. Fifty pieces of legislation. A number of those pieces of legislation have been struck down, notably in Texas, but a lot of people think that um HB too.

In Carolina, a lot of people thought that that was repealed. It actually wasn't. They basically made a new bill that basically had institute the same kind of discrimination against trans people because they wanted to basically get their corporate folks back, And so a lot of people think that that's settled.

In North Carolina, it actually isn't. The a c l U and other organizations are still I think it's lamb I Legal are still suing the state of North Carolina because they're trying to criminalize trans people going to the bath This has had a profound impact on politics. The governor of North Carolina who signed the infamous bathroom band like with Anymore, Yeah, he lost his race. I think he's still around, but he's no longer governor exactly um largely as a result of the backlash on this issue.

And last year we saw Danica Rome I think that's how you pronounced her name in Virginia be the first openly trans person elected and seated in the US State House. And Andrea Jenkins was the first only transgender black woman to be elected shows a Life to the Minneapolis City Council and met Andrew. I've met Andrew. We did a panel when I was a mini in Minnesota, like a

couple of years ago. And now Chelsea Manning has filed to run for Senate in the state of Maryland, and more of our controversial character having nothing to do with first I mean, I think it says a lot that we've seen this happen and that that must be a positive in a year that's been full of a lot of negatives. I think what has happened because of the current administration is that a lot of folks UM, various backgrounds are choosing to run for office and are winning.

And that I think if if there's anything positive that has come out of UM this current administration, is that folks have woken up. And I think a lot of folks got complacent under my beloved President Obama. I love him, we miss you, we missed you, Obama's UM. I think a lot of those got very complacent and didn't realize that UM a lot of basic civil liberties were at stake. And I think that it's very clear now. The last time I checked, and I'm sure the numbers higher, eleven

thousand women were running for office. Uh. And I think that brings us to sort of the me too movement. And I'm curious what you think of this movement, Laverne. If you believe it is intersectional enough, that is so it's really talking about race, it's talking about gender, it's talking about gender identity, uh, not just white women in Hollywood and or beyond even and and that if you

think it's expansive enough, So what are your thoughts. I think we can always be more intersectional, we can always um include more in color. Really, yeah, I mean intersectionality really for people I don't just experience the world as a trans woman. I experience the world as a black person and as and I have multiple identities and and

having a social movements. It's funny, as I've been doing a lot of rereading of Bell Hooks and a lot of black feminists from you know, the seventies and eighties, and and really for over thirty years that um, women of color, queer women have been critiquing, um a lot of second way feminism that you know, thirty years ago, black feminists were like, we need to expand this idea of womanhood and we cannot um use biological essentialism to

have conversations about women. That we have to be inclusive. So that conversation has been happening for a really long time. So I never doubted, I mean, I don't think anyone can hear her and and doubt how well informed well read you are on these issues. I mean it's unbelievable but any but But so that conversation has been happening for a really long time, and I mean we just

I think what we have to look at. I mean with Weinstein, for example, I remember all these actresses came out and said, you know that he had, you know, assaulted him and done the things that he's accused of doing. First person he challenged was Lupitte Niango, a black woman. When he all these other women, he didn't say anything, he didn't say that I didn't do it, he'd But the first person challenge it was was Lapie and the Ongo. And I think there this can't be a coincidence. Her

blackness can't be a coincidence. I noticed when some trans women have come forward and said that they have been sexually assaulted, there's been a different tenor in terms of the ways in which they've been believed as opposed to other women who are not trans. It's it's all very very tricky because there's a lot of there's a lot

of trauma. I think when we're talking about sexual assault and sexual harassment, I think it's really really important to talk about the healing that has to happen if you've been a victim or survivor, and it's one of I think the worst things that can happen to someone, if not the worst, UM, and so all the healing that

has to happen, and UM, what's exciting is that. UM. I mean, I've been rereading you know, UM, some of my belthooks and talking back, she says, one of the most useful tools that women have, and it's not just women who've been victims of sexual assault and harassment, is our voice to be able to speak up and to speak out. And so it's amazing that that I think we were just the country was just ready for that.

But UM, I think we still need to. UM. And it's not just because I and I. It's not just about including trans women, including women of color, including folks with disabilities or folks are incarcerated, including all these folks, But it's like, what does it mean to have these

folks in leadership positions and decision making roles. I'm finding myself, UM, I'm very blessed that be in the position I'm in, but I'm trying to be critical of it, and I'm trying to really think about all the folks out there who don't have the platform I have, and what do they need and what would they want me to say when I'm in in these positions, And so much of it is about having not just the tokenized Hollywood trans woman lover and cox in the in positions. UM, and

it's seats with seats at the table. But having diverse and other folks who don't have the saying privileges I have, well, it seems to me that you know, we have to start moving from outrage to policy changes and putting systems in place and all. So obviously attitudes sometimes I think laws precede attitudes. If you look at the civil rights movement, right, I mean, it wasn't a popular thing to enact certain pieces of legislation, but it was the right thing, and

then attitudes followed and somewhat. I mean, I think if you look at that, that's a really good example that we had the vote Civil Rights Act, in the Voting Rights Act um that were past and then black folks that did not end racism in America. Ironically, you know, black folks are incarcerated crazy rates, profile by police, et cetera.

That's for sure. But I think if sometimes if if leaders wait for public uh sentiment to be on their side, that sometimes they'd be waiting for a very long time to at least take the first step of enacting legislation. That's that is hopefully eventually one day fingers crossed going to change hearts and minds. But where should we go from here. Um, I think it's been so extraordinary to see people being able to express their them elves, use

their voices, exhibit their outrage. But at some point do we need to then take it to the next step. And in Hollywood, by the way, there is this initiative called times Up um that may be a part of moving forward on these issues. But but but what are they going to do other than raise money for a legal defense fund for you know, I mean and and not just Hollywood. But how can policies and change and how can we put systems in place so that it is better for that woman who's working on an assembly

line at a factory in Iowa. That's part of it. Rosa Clemente, who's been doing a lot of work around Puerto Rico, we have to remember their Puerto Ricans, Um. The island is still mostly without power and without clean drinking water. She reminded me when we met that that protests are important, but then we have to do the organizing after the protests, and so the organizing is about

policy and hopefully systemic shifts. Um. So I was at times that meeting this past week, and and so the Legal Defense Fund, it's wanted of things at times episduring. There's other things, other work too. That's that's that's on the horizon that that you'll find out more about later. That it's about those policy shifts, and I think really

it's how do we make workplaces safe for everyone? Anti sexual harassment policies have existed in of UM organizations for a very long time, but so much of that it's about not getting sued, but it doesn't change the culture in those organizations. So we have to be able to

change the culture and then who's in power. A lot of folks think that it's about having diverse leaderships, that we have more women and leadership positions, and more people of color and just more diversity and so so so, and hopefully that can begin to change the culture so that it's not okay to interrupt women and meetings and so it's not okay. What is no, that's man's plain. Well. I'm doing this whole thing for National Geographic and one of my hours is on gender and equality in Hollywood

and Silicon Valley and beyond. And there's something called he peating, and that means if you're at a meeting and a woman has this suggestion and everybody is like, yeah, yeah, yeah, it kind of blows her off. Then the man says it, and so there's this hepeating. There's this thing called he peating that men do where a woman makes a point and everyone ignores her and then the guy thank you for that. It's the same thing and thank you for

the illustration. But anyway, but but I do think that those kinds of cultural shifts instead, so that not that we're in these things are important. I think sometimes people think that liberals get sort of you know, want to police language and and want to say you can and can't say. This is not about that, It's about how

do we begin to change the culture. Because those cultures influence policies and influence the ways in which people are treated and they feel safe or not, and the workplates are on the street, or there may be sexual harassment policies, but I don't think they've been taken seriously. I think that when they have like diversity training or sexual harassment awareness, that most people just roll their eyes. And now I

think those times have changed. But do you think that more men should be invited into the conversation, Because I think right now, at this juncture, I think there are a lot of men who are so fearful, and I think that some of them believe like we need to spend this time listening, but at some point we need men to join forces with women and not just listen. So do you feel like they've been shut out of the conversation too much? I think we have to be

really careful not to foreground men's voices. I think we're talking about white sister gender men's voices in a in a in a movement that needs to be about women coming to voice and women having a space so that we can't foreground those voices. But men, we can't really top all of the patriarchy without um men being engaged

in that. I think a friend Matt mcgory does so much work around Black lives matter and around having conversations with white people around their own racism, and so I think men need to be having conversations with each other, and I know some incredible guys who are doing that work.

UM list of course listening to women of all from backgrounds, trans you know, women with disabilities, listening and then having conversations with other men and saying and saying this is no longer acceptable to talk about women this way and to have conversations, and then what can we do to change policies, to change hearts and minds? And then how can we interrogate ourselves. I think a lot of men to what I've come to realize this movement has been

really intense for me. I got to, um, I can't BlimE me when I talked about this, because I'm not maybe ready to fully talk about it. But I got to confront a man that I had had a sexual encounter with that the encounter was consentual, but then something happened that wasn't consentual, and I was able to recently recently confront him about that. And what was interesting for me in the confrontation is that he had no idea. He had no idea that his behavior was predatory, that

he didn't have consent. And I think so often the idea of consent is something that that that that men aren't really clear about. And I I'm very clear that what happened was not consentual and it was not okay, and I was able to assert that to him. But that's a different kind of conversation. What does consent look like? UM? A woman I know name who's who teaches um sex and in New York and she teaches kids, she's having conversations, you know, in middle school, really early on about what

consent is and looks like. And we have to be really careful about the messages we're sending to our young people of all genders about what consent is. And so those kinds of conversations men should be having with themselves, with um, with each other, and then ultimately with women and then listening more and then we all have to be engaged in changing the culture. Is it just too early to kind of push that, as you say, foreground

their voices. No, we should not be foregrounding voy I don't, I mean, I mean and I love I love ground exactly foregrounding so that we because it's the problem is that for far too often we've listened to men and not listen to women. Were at a point now when women when women are finally being believed and something heard and her, and we have to continue that we have. That doesn't mean that we're that doesn't mean because I love man, doesn't mean we hate man, doesn't mean that

we want to sort of demonize men. But we have to foreground the voices and experiences of women. And then I think to whether it's not just women who are experiencing sexual assault either. Anthony Rapp, we have to remember, came forward with some really important information about a well known actor that we all know, and um, Terry Crews and other other men have come forward and and so that they too have been and I know a lot of men and just personally who have experienced sexual assault.

So um, it's a conversation that we all need to have. But then there's there's something about power and accountability. I think, for so long as it was just okay to do this stuff and time's up, I feel like we should also just talk briefly about pay inequality. You know. A big story this will air a couple of weeks after this whole incident, but that got a lot of attention

is Michelle Williams versus Mark Wahlberg. And I found that really upsetting but also so interesting on a multiple levels because I think at per usual, Michelle Williams was trying to be super accommodating and saying, I'll do whatever it takes, so I'll, you know, skip my holiday, all right, I'll go to Italy over Thanksgiving or whatever, and then she have the same representation as Mark Wahlberg, who got paid

one point five million dollars. O'Brien told me earlier that there was some stipulation in his contract that he had

approval over the replacement actor. Blah blah blah. But the fact of the matter is, I mean, the man held it up so that he could get a bunch of money, and the woman said, oh, yeah, sure, I'm happy to be accommodating, and you know, do this whenever you want to get paid a thousand bucks, which I think speaks to eighty dollars a day perum, which which which speaks to I think women and are are discomfort in speaking up and demanding things and trying to be liked and

being the good person versus Mark Wahlberg, who of course eventually gave the money to the Times Up movement and to the Legal Defense Fund there. But I mean, why does this keep happening and how do you ussure in

a major paradigm shift for that. There's so many issues there, and I can when I when I hear that, I know I can relate to, especially being still feeling new to the entertainment industry and feel like, I'm just so lucky to be here that I don't want to do anything to piss people, and I don't want to do anything to piss anybody off. So I'm like, what do you need? And always trying to arrive and and be easy to work with and eating and agreeable and never difficult.

And so that's something I really really deeply relate to. Gosh, I think there's so many issues. There's so much that we probably don't even know about. In terms of the contract negotiations. I'm excited that the money is going to Time's up. Um, I'm excited that that's happening. Um. I think Michelle Michelle Williams is a brilliant, brilliant artist. Her body of work is so compelling. Her statement around this is has been absolutely just magnanimous and inspiring. I I

just love I love her. I don't know her personally, but I love the way that she's gone about all this. But part of this is I think women starting to become accustomed to owning some power, you know, and and not being so worried and being able to demand things and not be afraid what that says when it comes to And I think I think it's Susie Orman who said that we need to talk about money more in general, so that we are having conversations how much are you making?

You know, so that we should be openly having conversations about transparency are other people getting? And then so what should I be asking for? So so that that's part of it. But there's something I really get that desire to be like what do you need? You know? They were reshooting the film because of um the actor who they needed and needed to know. But I don't. I don't know for a reason. But like, so I get where Michelle was coming from. Let me do whatever I can't.

I get it. I really do alaudatory in a way. On the other hand, it's like why should we be pleasers and why should we be so helpful? Or maybe the men should be more helpful. Yeah, I was going to say, is that a good thing? A bad thing? It's so confusing. Oprah talked about how often talks about her how her life changed when she let go of her disease to please and I'm I'm still learning that,

um but really choosing them. Burne Brown says her boundary mantras use discomfort over resentment, so we're setting boundaries and and um not being in a space of like constantly wanting to please, but so that we can assert ourselves and feel and understand our value. I don't I don't know Michelle personally, and I think she I don't know her, but I think she knows her value with I think four Oscar nominations in this body of work. But um,

she's just not a jerk anyway. In closing right, Okay, No, but you know what I mean, she's like, I mean, she's a mench Yeah, she's a mention. She's a mention. Any who, Um, are there other projects you're working on that you can talk about? Freak Show right, Freak shows

out now, Freak shows in theaters and on demand. It's a beautiful UM movie set in high school about a young kidney Billy Bloom, who is kind of gender non binary, likes to dress and fantastic costumes at school and it gets bullied and it ends up running for homecoming Queen UM and it's a really beautiful story. I have a teeny tiny part in your. Trudy Styler directs and Bette Midler has a wonderful role in it. So folks can I think in l a New York City freak show

now or on demand. It's you can just get it anywhere. It's fantastic. I love that movie. Um and your model for model, Oh my god, that's crazy. Beyonce chose me to be one of the faces of her autumn winter campaign for Ivy Park. The posters are still in top shops all over the world. I still get it's an active it's an active where it's her at leisure line. It's amazing. I was an Ivy Park fan even before I was modeling for it. Thank you, Beyonce. That's you. Are you and be like this, I just did the

thing where your fingers are together, like you're super tight. No, I've met Beyonce once. She was about to give birth when we shot the ad campaign, so I've only met her once. We're not tight like that. Um, you know, you've got to be a lot more Hollywood. You gotta say, we're very very close, you know. I don't do that whole thing of like, should I be more Hollywood. I'm just gonna be Lavernet. It's actually very refreshing. But she she's so I mean. I've interviewed her a couple of times.

I haven't seen her for years, but in the early days of Destiny's Child and then when she started on her solo career, I had the pleasure of interviewing her and I just I just adore her. I think she is so great and we're so talented. It's ridiculously be She's still the queen of us all. I have a few queens, and Beyonce's one, and I remain a genormous fan. Who's your other queen? Um? Oh my god, I have many queens, Oprah, Um, Leon, Team Price, Violet Davis, Um.

When you look ahead at this year, you know what what a What are your hopes and dreams? It was funny you were saying you wanted that role and a continuing role that one year, and then Orange is a New Black popped up. What are your goals? I want to get better at being an artist and being an actress. I got to work on I'm Gonna be in the next season of Orange, and they wrote some really beautiful material for me and I I want to get better at what I do. I think being an actor is

very difficult. In doing it well, um, it's difficult, but it's also a lifelong pursuit and something that you can get better, get older, and get better at. So I want to continue to expand all the notes. New show called gland Masters that's coming out on Lifetime. It's a it's a competition reality show from makeup artist UM Kim Kardashian West is one of the executive dos. I'm a co executive producer as well, and I'm also a host and judge and We're looking for the next big breakout

star in the beauty industry. It's it's on Lifetimes premering February. I'm so proud of it. I've seen a lot of the episodes and the contestants are incredible. You really understand that makeup isn't just I'm not wearing makeup today. I thank god. I love having my makeup three days. But the makeup is not just about looking pretty. That it's an art. And these makeup arts we have on the show really show you that. And the challenges that we give them. Um, you illustrate that and it's fun. It's

so much fun. So you're not only doing all your acting stuff, You're like turning into a mogul. I'm trying to do continue to do what I love and do and I love a lot of different things, and so I'm trying to sort of go with the passion and being a space of of joy and multidimensionality. I'm not just one thing, and so I'm getting to explore all of these different sides of myself and showing the world that they can do that as well. I think that's great. Well,

I just you know, I adore you. So I'm so happy that you came by on a Sunday no Less to visit with us. This has been so much fun. I can't wait to see how you edit this because we've talked a lot of big thank you this week to the Invisible Studios in l A for today's recording, and our usual thanks to the lovely and talented Gianna Palmer for producing the show. We love Gianna, and we love Jared O'Connell for mixing it. Oh gosh, I don't

want to leave anyone out. We love Nora Richie, our assistant producer, and Alison Bresnik on social media, Emily Beena over at Katie Currect Media, we love you too, and Beth, my assistant. I can't forget her. We love her a lot because she puts up with me every day. Beth's a wonder woman in her own right. Mark Phillips wrote our theme music. I would say I love you, Mark, but I don't even know you. And Brian and I

are the show's executive producers. Talk to you next week, and thanks so much for listening, everyone,