Wonder Woman: Kara Swisher

so convenient it could. Yes, this week's wonder Woman. Kara Swisher has been covering the industry for more than twenty years and is one of the most incisive and well connected players in Silicon Valley. She's such a pit bowl, Brian, but she's actually a very nice pit bowl. She started working a long time ago, actually at the Washington Post. She apparently chewed out an editor for an article that had been written about an event at Georgetown where she

was a student. She ultimately got a job there. She went to the Wall Street Journal, and then she wrote a couple of books about a O Well, she started this huge tech site. I think really she was on the front lines of tech journalism back in the day, Brian, when she started All Things D with her partner Walt Mossburg and she's an entrepreneur herself. She left the Journal and all things d to start Recode and I like this.

A few years back in New York Magazine described Kara as Silicon Valley's most feared and well liked journalist, which is quite a rare combo, that's for sure. Fo schizl, as the kids might say. Brian. By the way, this is a crossover episode with Kara's podcast, Recode Decode, which means a version of this conversation will dropping Kara's podcast feed as well. But sadly for you, Brian, I'm flying solo this time and I'm missing you. Yeah. I don't want to get in the way of the two alpha women.

So you have your conversation. Keep me out of trouble, please, and I'm gonna be excited to listen. Thanks Brian. Karen and I covered a lot of ground from how she got into the business of journalism in college using her trademark Hutzpah Hutzpah Hotspa. We also talked about our respective careers and we kick things off by talking about Snapchat, of all things. Well, let me ask you about Snapchat because I want to not only talk to you about some of these big media companies and get the latest

skinny on it. But I also want to talk about you, Kac. But first, you know, so, I know Evan Spiegel had a good quarter. I know that investors were a little heartened, but it seems like Instagram really took the wind out of his sales with Insta Stories, which I'm totally obsessed with, which is actually a sickness which will will discuss later. But UM, tell me what's going on with Snapchat. I know they did a redesign and people were sad about it when the latest on that my son texted me

is like, nobody likes this redesign. I mean, I think these companies redesigned continually. They're always shifting and changing, and you know, Facebook had twenty ones that people didn't like, so I think that I think they just have to go with the way they want to do it and

then the best and people will. Yeah, I don't. I don't obsess on redesigns unless they're just truly awful, like a new coke, like new you know, something really doesn't work, um, and people get people get used to the way they're using these things, So I don't over index on that UM that said, you know, they've got to be very careful because what happened is years ago Facebook tried to copies try to buy Snapchat. First of all, Facebook is

essentially they're mortal, not their mortal enemy. They're they're killer really, They're they're trying to kill off Snapchat. UM, and they bought they try to buy Snapchat, and he put it off. He's a really interesting and visionary entrepreneur, Evan Spiel. I think every time I talked to him, always fascinated, and that's I can't say that with everybody I talked to UM. And he's he's got a big sense of where things

are going. And they really do have an advantage in that it's not a twitchy medium at all, even though I don't use it that much and I do know how to use it, UM, but it's a much it's a different it's a communications meeting a lot more like we chat in China, UM if you if you ever used that one. But Facebook had just decided to try to kill it, and so they try something I think it was called poke or something like that, which is

just an awful name for a medium. UM. Based on the pokes on Facebook essentially UM, and that didn't work and didn't catch on UM. And then they did it, used Instagram to do this, to do Instagram stories UM. And I had Kevin H. Sistram, who was the founder of Instagram, on my podcast and he you know, most the people complained about it. They basically thought it was shoplifting or plagiarism, you know, in terms of how they borrowed what Snapchat was doing. And he said, look, we

are doing exactly the same thing they're doing. But someone invented the car radio. Should we not make better car radios? You know what I mean? That's that was his argument. We're making a better car radio, and good for them for inventing the car radio, but too bad. And I think he was talking about the itera of nature of technologies that people build on, just like jobs and Gates stole. They borrowed the stuff from xerox park, the graphical user interface,

it happens, it happens again. And I think the problem for Snapchat is that Facebook can just roll eventually will get it right, just like Microsoft did a million times on a bunch of other tech companies. So what does that mean for Evan Spiegel and Snapchat. How does Instagram compare, Well, he's so creative. I so it is Kevin's Sistram by the way, who runs Instagram. Um, but I think it's hard. I think it's super hard to compete. I mean, the

ear of big tech companies now is really here. Um. It was talking to someone the other day of a venture capitalist named Sarah Tavil, and she said, it's really hard to do innovative companies anymore because and there will

be innovative companies, it's not going to never stop. But the powerful companies Apple, Google, Facebook, Um, Amazon and Amazon are just it just creates a like a really difficult and they're buying up companies and they're they're being innovative and iterative themselves, and so it makes it super hard for smaller companies to break in. Facebook has gotten a lot of bad press lately Russia and about all kinds of things. So give me can you just catch me

up on what's happening in Facebook? And what do you think the outcome is going to be of a lot of this criticism. Well, you know it's interesting. I was on you don't follow Twitter that carefully, but I had a debate with Facebook executives this weekend on Twitter. I'm gonna have to go back. They lost, they lost. It's gone, o Katie. Yeah. No, Here's what they did is they're they're very sensitive. First of all, they did a very

slow roll about the uses of their platform by Russia. UM, in terms of initially last year, Mark Zuckerberg said there was no impact whatsoever. They said that again even recently, right, they did say the election, which is the unknowable thing. Yes, well they wanted to. You know, they just keep saying it, and they maybe it's like Trump, right, they just keep saying, the crowds are bigger, the crowds are bigger than crowds

were here. UM. I think one of the things is they're very you know, they're very technical and mathematical people, and so they're being very accurate about certain things they're saying and and focusing in on and missing the forest through the trees. You know, a lot of this stuff unquantifiable. Some of it is, some of it is. But I think the overall issue is that they're they're they're technically saying these ads were not run. Until these ads were,

they weren't talking about the content on the platform. It's so much larger and bigger than they're discussing. But technically their ads were bought at various times, and so their their whole premise around this is that these ads didn't sway the election, and everyone else is like, well, there's an indictment by Robert Mueller that shows how they used primarily Facebook and Instagram to invade the system and take

advantage of the system. And I liken it to I mean, if you think about it, what if Russia had bought all the advertisements on a network or run the content of a network during a presidential election and swayed it.

And they don't. They're not, they're not. They don't want to take responsibility for the fact that their platform was used by a malevolent power to create discord in our country and that doesn't seem to bother them as much as technically our ads weren't bought into here, the platforms were used and abused, because you know, it's sort of like why would you rob a bank. That's where the

money is, that's where the people are. So these platforms, and Facebook being the biggest one, have been much abused by malevolent powers. So what's going to happen like when you think about Facebook, Karen, you think about say, YouTube, which has also had a lot of problems with I just intornography and inappropriate content, and advertisers are now shying away from that. I mean, what what is the solution for these companies with they you know, the genies out

of the bottle? Well, I just had a long interview with Susan Wijiski at one of our events earlier this week. Actually, who's the CEO? Very thoughtful person. I just had her on an NBC MSNBC show. I did. I really like her. She's great, She's great. But I mean they're trying very hard because they know that these platforms are massive. I mean the they I think it's a trillion hours a week or some it's some enormous number that's being uploaded to YouTube and all these social media platforms, and so

the ability of them to monitor it is enormous. They don't. There's obviously people can't do it. It's not it's not feasible for people to do it's not scalable. And then secondly, the technology around AI and other machine learning in order to to maybe control this better is still in its infancy and very problematic. And so they they're trying to figure out how to maintain order, I guess, and at the same time pretend they're not media companies. And so when I interview them, I do a lot of well

are you immediate? No, we're not where I think Susan was like where a technology platform whose end result is media or something. It was something like really convoluted ways. Do you think they're so reticent to be you know, because it requires responsibility, because it requires responsibility there. That means they're responsible. Like the New York Times cares if it's wrong, right, you know, whatever people think of the

New York Times or whatever liberal media or whatever. You know, working at any of these institutions, we care when we're wrong. We say we're wrong. We like correct and it matters. There's a great deal of heaviness to the responsibility. Well, they're like I think they say they're the pipes. They're not. That goes through it, right, even as they ruin the business plans of every publisher, you know what I mean, it's really they have to take it's a different kind

of media company. But they're a media company. But the minute they admit their a media company, it means they have responsibility for what's on their platform, and and there's lots of laws why they don't want that to happen to like they don't they want to just say they're at the nine platform essentially. Do you think that's ever going to change? I mean, what, how do you see this all? You know? No, I don't think that there would be any regulation. There's there's always talk about it.

And obviously I'm interviewing Corey Booker and others. The Democrats are suddenly which were the friend of internet, are now turning on the Internet, which is really interesting. Um and so we'll see if the Democrats get in power, if there's more regulation. But so far the US and where most of this is taking place, has been toothless. Europe, on the other hand, there's a woman named Marguerite Vestiger who's been very tough on all the big media companies

in Europe. She's a she's a commissioner at the EU. I think it's for competition. I forget her long title, but she's vanta. I did a great podcast an interview with her. She's she's really an interesting force and she's the one that's levied all these fines on these companies and and really has the teeth to really bother them in these countries. And I think the European Union and Europe has a very different point of view on privacy, on abuse, on all kinds of things that that is

problematic for tech US tech companies. But in the US, you know, they roll over. Everybody rolls over. And obviously our Twitter in chief, our troll in chiefs Donald Trump is using the medium to his own advantage. It's time to take a quick break. We'll have more of my conversation with Kara Swisher right after this. And now back to my conversation with Kara Swisher. You know, nobody knows this, but we like each other, Katie character, don't we We like? Yes,

I admire you. I like you. I think you're really smart, really funny, and really good at what you do. So, speaking of that, how did you get into this crazy business? I know you went to Georgetown, you started writing for your school newspaper. You could call the Washington Post to bitch them out about an artist, which made me laugh because you thought that they did a big bad job

covering something at Georgetown. Yeah I did, I did. I was mad at them for a piece and if you outdate myself, Roberto Dabizon, remember him from Nicaragua, the awful killer of women and children at Nicaragua, he led the desk squads, and so I thought it was irresponsible they didn't do a good job covering him. So, you know what I thought was really interesting about that story, Kara, though you called, and I don't remember the editor to

whom you spoke, it's what's Larry Kramer. So Larry Kramer, which I really thought was cool, said come in and talk to me about it. Now. If he hadn't done that, do you think you would have gotten into journalism anyway? That's a good question. Yes, I was. I was already really writing a lot. Yes, percent. I think getting that break to go to the Washington Post was a big deal. Um. And it was a big deal too because it you know, you know how it elevates you when you go where

did you start? You started out like a small I started at ABC News in Washington, getting Frank frendin tam Sandwich is, making coffee and passing out xeroxes of the Rundown. Guess what I did? Delivered mail? You know that? And you know what was really interesting about working from the beginning, as I was in the mail room and I did night news aid and things like that at the Washington Post when I was younger, when I was in college, was that you understand the dynamics of politics of a

newsroom much better from a lower wrong. I don't know if you did. I learned that really talented people weren't quite as difficult as the less talented people. Yeah, I don't know if I learned that, but I did learn through osmosis, just kind of how a newsroom worked. I think it's sort of feeds your curiosity. You watch people who you admire, who you think are good, who are tough, um and um. I also think it makes you think, hey, if they can do it, I can do it, because

they're not that great, right exactly. And I think I took I think you probably did the same thing. I took every opportunity I got, every time someone handed me a chance, I took it. And like, oh, someone go to the Smithsonian to write about this dumb like rock collection story, and I just said, I'll do it, you know what I mean, I'll do it. Was my definitely

right say yes to everything, everything. And I think that is a really important, you know, and a valuable piece of advice for people starting out, don't you, Kara, Yeah, I do absolutely think one of the things it was more than yes, I just I didn't just say yes, I just I literally would do whatever kind of thing. And I think I you know, one of the things I was talking to some of the other day, they were like, what do you regret? And I'm like, I

didn't really travel. I went right to work like I worked. I think you'd probably did the same thing. Is I didn't like take time off. I didn't like go and find myself in you know, Thailand. I know for me, work is like oxygen. You know, I have to work. I and and I know you feel the same way. And I'm wondering I didn't realize. I feel like I know a lot about you, but I don't think I knew that your dad died when you were just five years old. Um, and and he had a cerebral hemorrhage

and you know it. Yeah, And he was how old, Kara, thirty four years old, which is so heartbreaking. And you know that was the age Ellie was when Jay died, my my late husband. And do you remember for your dad? You know. It's funny. I do in bits and pieces, and I don't know how much she does. You should. You know, a lot of people whose parents died a young age or or something called highly functional because they

become like half their life goes away. Really, if you think about it, if you're five, you don't have much reference to other friends and family and things that you reference your parents pretty much, and so you get highly functional because the worst thing in the world happened to you and you survived. And I think a lot of people kids whose parents died a young age, but they just move faster because they realize, you know, the ephemorality of life. And then at the same time, um, they

can deal with things. Things don't bother them that much, like both negative and positive. You want to be bothered by certain things in life, but you definitely roll on through. Is your mom still living? Yes she is? Oh, yes, you do. You find me worried about her a lot because the one thing that I've noticed, and I had talked with Carrie, my younger daughter, about this because Ellie was at such a formative age. Carrie was just two

and Ellie had just turned I guess was six. It had turned six, and she gets a lot of anxiety about me because I think she doesn't you know, I'm her only parent and do you feel that way about your mom? No? And I'm sorry. We're an Italian family, so no, I do not worry about it sometimes, like she loves her Fox News. Let me just say so, that's been a great interesting you guys not talk about

politics at the thanks table. Shut up. I had to throw out of Thanksgiving one because she voted for Rink Santorum. But that's in a long story. She said she wouldn't because he was for anti gay stuff, and I said, you can't vote for him and continue to have Thanksgiving in New York City and she everywhere. She's in Mexico City right now. It's interesting that she's quite a she's like an anti name kind of person. Uh yeah, Fox his his poison her brain completely. But but she's okay.

She's pretty funny. Um, you like girl, you'd like her, Katie, she's fun. Oh yeah, she sounds fun. We'll have to take a little lunch or something and just not talk about politics too. But she doesn't like Trump so much. But she you know, she loves Fox News. Oddly, she does. She again't stand Trump. So listen after wait, I just want to do a little more of your career stuff. So after the Washington Post. Um, I mean, you are such a force, Kara, and you're sort of the most

well liked and feared. I've read that a million places journalists covering in Silicon Valley. And and how did you get so interested in covering technology? I covered Steve Case to Mayo. Well, Um, I was here in Washington at the Washington Post, and I covered the Internet early early on, um, when there was a tant interchange and all this other stuff. And so I was super struck by the Internet from a very early age. I had the Washington Post, had a phone. I used a big, old, heavy one. It

was in a suitcase. Um, I was. I was riveted to the idea that there was going to be a mobile phone for some reason. Did you have one of those like Maxwell smart car phones that looked like a shoe box. I was not in my car, but it was a suitcase that I brought in my car. That was. And then I bought one of the you know, And then I had one of the other phones that looked like those big ones. And I had I've had early.

I've had phones forever. I one time was on a vacation with someone I was going out with and I was in the middle of a bay in Provincetown. It was low tide and so I could walk out pretty far and it's like it works out here, and I think they broke up with me, right that. Yeah, No, I just went on a vacation of Mexico with the Nelly and who was supposed to be without any internet or anything else, and of course I managed to find a cellular connection somewhere, managed to find the one square

foot where would come in. I did hike up the giant hill to get there. But whatever, it's details, Well, do you worry, Donny, Do you worry about tech addiction, because that's something that actually I am worried about, not only for myself but for people in general, because I see my daughters. One of the hours I'm doing for Nacio shameless Plug is talking about this technology making us lose our humanity because it really is changing, dramatically, changing

the nature nature of our relationships. And one thing I heard Kara from an internet expert. In an addiction expert out in California, I interviewed Larry Rosen. He said that kids are actually developing plaque in their brain because phones and screen time is actually interrupting the mel a tonent in their brain and increasing cortisol. And they're very, very worried about early dementia among these addicted kids. Which wasn't enough to freak me out. Oh my goodness, yeah, Katie,

that's terrible. I'm sorry to make the news to you, but so I'm completely demented right now. Then I think, uh, you know, it's not to joke about it. I agree. I think it's going to be a big topic this year. I think, uh, you know, people talk about this and again this is the next wave of hit hits. The companies like Facebook definitely and sing you hear more more people making noise. One of the guys I interviewed, Tristan Tris, who I just think is I love him, Kara. He's

such a remarkable young man. He's thirty three years old. He quick Google right because he said was it Google or Google? Because he felt like these tech companies are manipulating us so much and they're making us addicted by and I see it taking same theme, not taking responsibility for what they're doing. And so one of the things, you know, people are liking him. I'm media companies are like him to dissigarette companies. I think that's probably taking

it slightly too far. But there is uh there there is a question of how much warning people should have, how much knowing about how much science needs to happen. That's one of the reasons I wanted to do this hour. You know, we're operating and it's like minute by minute, and nobody I think in the media culture takes a step back and says, wait a second, let's take a

look at some of these big issues. Because I think this is such an incredibly transformational time in almost every arena, but nobody is sort of debating it or talking about it. They don't want to. These internet companies don't want to do that because I think what they've been doing is

growing at a breaknext speed. And one of the things I started to do last year, right when they went to visit Trump, Remember they all trooped up to Trump Tower and and didn't say anything about immigration, And I had I wrote one of these skull the Scullly columns about it, talking about how dare you do this without discussing immigration? This guy has been so anti immigrant, you know,

which has been the fuel for Silicon Valley. Essentially all the major companies founded by immers Elon Musk, Sergei Brand, Saton, Adela, uh Seve Jobs parents father was an immigrant, um and so in eight of them, you know, Susan Wachsky's parents are from father's from country. UM. So I was I was really angry at them for doing that by walking up there, and they were all like, oh, you know, we'll get to it. He's not he doesn't mean what

he says. I'm like, he means what he says, you know, around this topic, as he said it so many times and was one of his basic promises to his constituency. And so I think what they want to do is act as if they are the saviors of humanity and not take the responsibility for what their inventions create. Um. And that and tech addiction is just one of the many.

And I think, you know, you at some point you do, like I get, I get a lot of push back this past year like you're such a skull, and I'm like, no, you need to grow up and start to understand not just tech addiction, but job displacement, Like what's going to happen around AI and automation. Well, let's can we talk about that too, because that's that's something that that I addressed in this hour of jobs are suscept doble to

automation eliminating them by the early twenty thirties. I know you did a town hall series with MSNBC about that and with jobs in the future. This is something that I've been really interested in because you know, it's a job. These jobs are not being lost to globalization, they're being lost to automation and and so so I mean, it's a huge dilemma and I think it's actually part of what's feeding white working class frustration. Another hour I'm doing

on that GEO. So what what is the solution here? I mean, I don't know, because you know, I got the inspiration from doing that series eMac from Mark Andres and I who've been arguing for decades. How he and I argue about all kinds of things, But one of the things he was telling about was that it's like

the farming to manufacturing. Definitely, And look except except that that happened over seventy some years and it was a very and it was huge political uprising because of it, and now in this age of social media and also constant and repeated media everywhere, people's feeling, you know, so apart from each other, and so part is in it's a it's a powder keke as far as I can, you know, I mean, you really create agree, you know. Steve Case has talked about this. J. D. Vance is

great book, Killabilly Elegy. There is a massive transition about to happen around jobs that people are not paying attention to, and I don't want to be one of them. Wrote a great book based on a Harvard Business Review article called just called White Working Class, which talks a lot about class cluelessness and cultural condescension and all just highly recommend it's such as why it say what? Who is

thinking of it? That's I don't want to like say, Okay, there's not gonna be better jobs in the future that but who what are we gonna do about it? One of the things that Nellie just interviewed Robert rich who was the former Labor Secretary Beery, and one of the things he said in this interview, they did a New York Times thing on ei AI. It was an event and one of the things that I thought was the best quote that came out of it was you were

either this is universal. She was asked a universal basic income, which is you pay people essentially when jobs get lost. And it's you know a lot of it's very controversial. It feels like communism a little bit, you know what I mean. It's a question, but it's one of the ideas of how to deal with this joblessness and uh

and eventual joblessness. Um. He said, you either are gonna pay pay then these numbers to pay people to not work essentially, or you're gonna pay to bulletproof you're tesla like And I was like, oh wow, that's because people are gonn You're gonna create this sort of Brazil like situation where there's very war and very rich. Um. And and that's going to be We've got to really my

question is who's thinking about it? Who among our Is it the tech companies whose responsibilities that the tech companies is a government? Is it's citizens? I think, yeah, I think it's all the above. But you're right, it's very frustrating that people are just kind of have their head in the sands about sand about this. Zoe Baird is working very hard on this thing called skillful and she's working with Governor hick and Looper in Colorado to try to come up with a way to retrain and uh,

you know, especially displaced workers. But I think our whole education system needs to be reevaluated. I went to Johnstown, Pennsylvania, where they're of the high school students are involved in vocational training, and I just think that this we just have to really kind of everybody has to put their their thinking where it's going and where it's going because some of these jobs you don't even I mean some

of the jobs. There was a great story in The York Times recently about Sweden that they were doing robots are doing mining essentially right, and all kinds of like why should people like this whole thing about Kentucky going back to coal mining. People probably shouldn't coal mine like this. It's very dangerous. It's you know, there's certain jobs, wrote jobs that maybe people shouldn't do anymore, and it wasn't good for people in the first place, So why just

have them there when robots can do it better? What's hard? Karras, You know, these are generational, traditional jobs that have been passed on. It is part of certain people's DNA. So we have to rethink education, rethink all the different possibilities and how from the get go, from pre k on we start orienting people towards the jobs of the future. Thank you who knows, who knows? Thank you, Thank you President correct Um. But but but the thing is, uh,

we can't. They can't even decide in lunch. They can't pass a dreamer's Act. And this is like, for example, the Dreamer's Act thing is just driving me crazy because it's literally an advertisement to the rest of the world that we don't like innovation, we don't like innovative people, we don't like people who work harder. It is such a message to the rest of the world, which again

we have. The technology and innovation in this country has been fueled by immigrants, no matter how you slice of people coming in, fresh ideas, fresh thinking, and and the and so hard king you know exactly the people all you know, the scrappy people who have something to prove who I mean, those are the people who change the world, not people who you know, pardon the expression, are born with the silver spoon in their mouth. Right. And the problem is, I think one of the things you know,

we can get a diversity in the next section. But I do need to talk to you about Yahoo. I need to. And then when I talked to you about like how you're able to get so many people to talk to you, and how you stay in the business without pissing so many people off, they never talk to you again. Well, I'm about to piss everyone off. I think at the end of my career is gonna be one big disaster. No, You're just like a Roman candle Kadie.

I'm going out big and ugly. Um. So the finish of this section, one of the things I think is what I think about when I think about these ideas around not accepting people in this country and around and keeping in an open borders and things like that in order to do this um is that there is a like including around the issues of diversity, to like not bringing not thinking bigger. There is a I have this vision in my head of a small girl in Afghanistan

who knows how to solve cancer. It's in her brain, like who is going to be the one that doesn't? Who will never get there because of all kinds of issues either immigration or discrimination or whatever there there are. We don't know who hasn't been able to invent things because of the barriers we put in people's way that we could remove and create a better place. And I know it sounds like sort of pie in the sky, but the more barriers we put in front of people

to be innovative, the less humanity benefits. I agree with you, and I think the Internet is helping remove some of those barriers in terms of giving people a pathway to education and exposing them to, you know, ideas that they'd never be exposed to otherwise. Well, we're gonna talk about that more because we get you talked to James to Moore and others for your one of your that I was talking on Yahoo. Yeah, Katie, what happened? Well, I

think it was a really interesting experience. I think that, Um, you know, I think the real issue is many of these tech companies. I mean, it's what we were talking about earlier. They are not media companies. They do not

care deeply about stories about content, about true connection. I think they care about widgets and djets and how to and delivery systems, but they aren't really super interested in you know, the vegetable soup that's running through the pipes, and um, and I think for me it was just a bit of a culture clash. I think that the problems, the challenges of making sure people got good content was just not high on their priority list, right, So what do you do? When you went in, you were thinking

what a Yeah. I saw the world changing. I saw people, uh consuming information. I saw this pipeline, whether you know direct discernment, dis disintermedia or you know, using these pipes to reach people as something that was incredibly promising. And I thought Yahoo, I said to marissamr I said, do you want to be known as the company that serves up stories about the boy who lived on Ramen noodles for thirteen years? Or do you want to kind of

have really important, interesting, substantive interviews. Do you want to educate and enlighten people? Do you want to raise the bar? And you know, it doesn't mean you can't have the Roman noodle story, but you could do maybe a high low thing like they do in fashion. You know, you were a sweater from burn Doors and jeans from Jay Crew whatever. So she seemed to be open, but I don't think she was ever sort of understood the commitment

that would take. And I just think she had a lot of other things on her plate and fairness, and so you know I wouldn't because they were a huge company. Marriage, but it was certainly not very fulfilling for me because I had all this great content. I was getting big interviews, and it's sort of like a tree falling in the forest because no one because they didn't put it on the front page. Well they didn't put it on the

front page, or they didn't really know how to. I mean, even now, they really don't have very good distributions, you know, they don't. They didn't really know how to market things properly. They didn't know how to take quality and make it scalable. And at one point, you were paying for Facebook ads? Is that correct or yourself? I did bring someone in.

I wasn't no, no, no, I wasn't paying. I did bring someone in who was really an expert on micro targeting, because you know, I would say to him, how can how can my stuff get seen more? And I would, you know, say to the Yahoo folks, can we please do a newsletter. I'll totally push out everybody's content. I'll make sure everyone sees Matt Buy's column, or I'll make

sure that people see Josie's fashion thing. You know people they hired you need to be Yeah, they hired some big names and yet you know, they were in the witness protection program. So I said, let me help you, help them, help us, help everybody. But they just I don't know. Maybe it's because they were kind of at that that time and are a legacy tech company that they had kind of an attitude show to innovate. I think, you know, it's a it's an attitude throughout tech. The

content doesn't matter. They have for content. It's not even no respect. It's it's as if it's disdaining. Don't even that it's really weird. It's like, oh, it's just another thing they're pushing through the system. Essentially, it doesn't matter. That's why I like. I think the Secret Sauce are people who are technologically savvy but also respect and care about storytelling. And the company that I think combines those two things is going to be It's gonna win the day.

And I haven't really found it yet, have you guess? By the way Box Doyes, we we tried to, but we don't own the pipes, you know what I mean. I do think sometimes when I talked to Evan Spiegel. I do think, well, at least he gets the concepts around it, like the idea that you differentiate or you curate, and I think that's the that's the question, is the curation.

And I think that doesn't matter. I think one of the things that I found fascinating from your tenure, besides all the other things I was writing about there um, was the they made this enormously high profile higher and you are you know it was. It was a big giant higher that they made and then they literally hit you anywhere. That was so weird, right, It was just just it's a business proposition. It's not like I'm all

that and a bag of ships. But like, if you are going to invest in somebody like me who has a quote unquote brand, which I hate that, but you know, who is recognizable and has a connection with people, why not leverage that. It was bizarre. I don't think they

meant it in the first place. I think it was no, no, no, I think the very they never intended to do it, but it wasn't e they It sounded good, it was like a good press release, but it was sort of They hired a lot of people so it was more than a press It was something, you know what I mean, Like that was what was interesting the whole I just was it was sort of a sidelight and I don't think it was even as cynical as just a press release. I think they thought they want no I think you're right.

I think they just didn't understand what it required. And I would try to say, hey, let me bring this person in to run media who really gets it, and you know, and they just I don't know. It was it was strange. So you left because why because it then it had changed. Merris was because I just didn't see them shifting their attitudes. And you know, at some point, even under Oath, I just had to interview too. I

liked him. I think he's great. I told him I thought the new name of the company should be rise Are I z E. Because it's sort of like Verizon and it's aspirational and positive. But you know, I think they've paid a lot of money to come up with

Oath whatever. But anyway, so I think that, you know, I think these companies are are Maybe they'll wake up and smell the coffee, but I think they're just very lumbering and slow and so at some point ironically right, but at some point you want to do quality work and make sure that someone values what you do and make sure that they hopefully want to get it out into the world, which is increasingly fragmented by the way.

Two questions of Netflix just paid Ryan Murphy a millionaire, you know, and then Shanna Rhymes as a similar Obviously Apple is just invested in a Reese Withers. When things expensive, Um, you know, you some morning television, right exactly, It's all about you. It's not about me, I don't think, but but you could consult for sure. You seem to know what a thing or two about that, um when you when you look at all that though they are, they

are moving rather heavily, they are. You know, I think right now, I think that they are not super jazzed about moving into a more news space. But maybe ultimately they will be. But right now, I think they're really focused on scripted content and you know, super kind of impactful, buzzy stuff. And you know, I think in a news landscape where there is so much content everywhere, I don't know about you care, but I can. I mean, I read so many articles on my phone and I'm like,

where did I read that? What was that? How did I know that? And it's disconnected. It feels very confusing. But but you're right, I think I think the landscape is continually changing and iterating, as they say, and uh, you know, it will be interesting to see. But the most important thing is, you know, how are we going to keep people informed and engaged in the world around them. I do think, you know from what I said earlier, that a lot of young people gen z whatever you

call it, millennials really do are engaged. But we have to continue to think about how we'll continue to keep people engaged, you know, because it's so democracy. I know, what would you do right now if you were young? I mean you already if I want to be let me say everybody. Katie kirk is the hardest woman working woman. And we were having dinner and literally she was getting on You were getting on a knife, like where were you going? You were going to, like Alabama or somewhere.

We're like, Katie Kurrt can rest. I know, I just love to work. I don't know why. My husband thinks I'm insane and I think you're insane. I know, I have to figure out I do feel like I have to find a better balance. But what would I do if I were starting out in the I just felt like like at one point, I'm like, you did that, Sarah Paliner if you can retire now, I know, but don't. I mean, I'd like to be engaged in the world. I like to be talking to interesting people. And what

would you do if you're young? What would you what? Are you interested now? And interested in now? Yeah? What do you mean? Because look, broadcast is sort of shifting so dramatically, and you know, you tried the Yahoo thing, although it doesn't mean that that didn't work. But are you where would you where? Where are you looked at? Or where would you go? I mean, I think that I'd like to try something more entrepreneurial because I think

there's never been a better time. I mean, if you talk about disintermediation, I mean I've I do a lot on Instagram because I feel a real connection with people who follow me on Instagram. It feels a little less kind of uh, sort of cosmic than Twitter. I feel it's more community based, and I think that that's a really interesting outlet to experiment in and try different things.

And you know, I'd like to do something that really, you know, at this point in my career, shines the light on other young up and coming especially female journalists, diverse journalists, people who represent all different points of view. Because the one thing we've seen Kara so clearly is certainly in broadcasts, that it is still a male bastion. It's still all the decision makers are are primarily white men,

and we have to start changing that. And how do you change it while you give women an opportunity and experience and a chance to shine. How did you take I mean, obviously media has been the focus of a lot of me too stuff, more than any I was talking about so the other day. There's there's a lot of it in tech, but it really has been focused on media and including places you've worked. I mean, how do you look at when you when you see that happening? Did you just become a nerd to it like this

is the way it is? I mean, I have to say personally, I did not deal with a lot of that. I don't know whether, uh, you know, I'm just imminently in harassable, but you know I'm harassable, not harassable, But you know, I was very lucky. I you know, every now and then, um, you know, someone would make a comment or it would be a little fratty, but I would just I think, I'm kind of like you. I would roll my eyes or give it right back. And so I think culturally it's just been such a shift

in what is acceptable and what is unacceptable. But having said that, you know, I've been the beneficiary of having a pretty powerful job, and I would try to set the right tone in a work environment. Having said that, I think I'm sure it was you know, jocularity bordered on too much kind of uh, you know, boy's humor. But yeah, I think I think about what I did I allow that I shouldn't have. Yeah, well, you know,

and I don't I don't really feel that way. I think that some people have said, well, how did you not know what was going on? I think there was also this feeling of privacy, you know, and people do things and you're not monitoring behavior, uh, in people's spare time, you don't know about it. And so I think that, you know, I feel I have a totally clear and clean conscience about the way I comported myself, and you know,

any responsibility that I bear for people's bad behavior. Yeah, that's hard because I think what's what happens is one of the things I've noticed, at least in Silicon Valley and talking to people is that people let things go. Like you know, I think about like how how you just you become again a nerd to it, like you you get you get this stuff all the time and then you live in the environment and stime. It is

so subtle, Kara. You know something aggressive things that hasn't gotten a lot of attention is sort of very subtle sexism. That's that's marginalizing and dismissive and undervalues people's accomplishments and intelligence and and um ability to contribute. And it's it's this very subtle thing that you can't go to necessarily hr about it, but you feel it intensely. And I

hadn't experienced that. Yeah, it's really interesting. When I just finished the Tina Brown book about her tenure, which I thought was fantastic and one of the things you got rated. It's hysterical. It's hysterical and beautifully written in very funny and very rob but brilliant, brilliant. But I was just thinking people have a vision of her that's really not very nice, like tough, you know, ball busting lady editor Cain and like, I'm so over that. I am over

and I was. I was like she she changed magazines and to not one but two, and she had some like Rocky, Our Times, a Daily Beast and Talk and stuff like that. But her accomplishments were massive when you start to realize it. The impact on magazines definitely. The kind of image she has is so like everyone any man only did that. I just was made me furious when I was reading. I was thinking, this person still has sort of a reputation among some which is like,

oh what a what a tough bit. She is that kind of thing, and I'm like, whoa wait, wait a minute, she did a lot and why is she why is that her image? Well, you know, I think that's why it's so important to have women in leadership positions. When I anchored the CBS Evening News, like I would call writers out and say, why are you describing Hillary Clinton that way? Would you describe a male candidate that way? Or just why can't we do a story on X, Y and Z things that that my male counterparts would

never in a million years imagine. And but Why should it be you that does it? Why does it have to be someone I was just I did the same thing when I interviewed Hillary Clinton last year at code um So. One of the anchors I was telling you was like, she was strident, and I'm like, what did you just use? And this was on the air, and they're like, I said strident as a word you only used for hysterically true? And how that I was like, she was top of that being struck? You know, taken

out of our vocabulary? Do you ever, hey? And how about perky? You know, like I was called and I am very outgoing and I'm friendly and I'm very like, I'm very upbeat, but you know, our men ever called perky? No, I feel like it's a demeaning, marginalizing description of somebody. And I am like, when you shifted, like I think you did shift though, and you'r you were not You were a much more complex person than you know what I mean. People people didn't like it. Well, people don't

like they don't want to acknowledge people are multidimensional. They want to, you know, put them in a box and say their X, Y and Z. And you know, I think that nuance has been lost in our current discourse and hasn't really existed for a very long time. And it's just very easy to stereotype people or else you I think about you. I remember when we were Fanny Fair and you yelled. I was talking about your salary and I was thrilled that you got the big salary.

You did it. Yeah. Who Someone was sort of saying, oh, that's a lot of money. I'm like, who cares? You got the money like that? And you yelled from the onon that's right, switcher or something like that, but in sort of growl, and it was fantastic, and everyone's like, is that Katie Karrek, And I was like, yes, that is Katie k I think women, especially, I mean, think about it morning television. You have to be nice and you know, I think luckily I am. I think of

myself as a nice person. But you have to fulfill these expectations and roles, and you know, it's very hard to navigate as a woman this kind of you know, being tough but not too tough, you know, being challenging but not too challenging, not having an opinion, being you know, being palatable and pleasant in the morning. You know, you have to be like the breakfast smoothie, and so it's hard, It's really hard. I like the breakfast smooth I think

I stole that first. Who described that as that? Once? Yeah? What not anymore? What smoothie would you be? Like? Oh, my goodness, you'd be an interesting smoothie. But it's true. But it's it's I think that that's what's interesting is that if you don't fulfill their expectations of you. I think there's so much you know, one of the hours I'm doing for Natchie and again, I'm I've been thinking about all these and the only reason I bring it up is because you're in this hour and you're fantastic.

It's about gender inequality in Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and I talked to a woman at Harvard who studies implicit bias, and we you and I talked about this, Kara. You know, because I don't think that consider themselves a meritocracy, are the least meritocratic of anyone, because they don't acknowledge their

in eight biases. And I think we are so programmed to see men and women in a certain way that is actually, you know, reinforced by all the messaging we get and commercials and the objectification of women, hyper sexualization of women. I had to think, you know, when this whole meat too movement was exploding, the Victoria's Secrets fashion show was on CBS, and I was like, no wonder, women are confused, No wonder, everybody is confused, right, right?

But then you have the backlash and you talked about you. You you interviewed James to more for that, right or right others? You went to one of his party. You told me, I'm going to his party. I went to a cookout conserving sausages where they of course they were. There's sausages everywhere where I work, Katie, everywhere I go, sausage Sausage Fest. That's the name. That was the name of my memoirs, Sausage Fest. Um. But it's true, I

always it's it's so true. Um. But what was interesting about when you were talking about that was that I glad that you were open to hearing them because one of the things in Zilia Valley right now, you know, Peter Teel has to move because he can't be concerned. Which come on, come on, come on, yeh, let's discuss that, alright. We only have a few minutes. Oh come on, I just please. I just don't even know what to say. This is a person who is a victimizer that acts

like a victim typical, you know what I mean. Like this guy's soothed company out of business, he's got billions of dollars, he's all kinds of things at his disposal. And if you want me to imagine that he and he gets to speak up, he gets to give speeches, he gets to you know what I mean, and he's still a victim. Is Well, let me ask you something, Kara,

in terms of like a policy discussion. Do you believe that in certain circles that conservative point of view is is actually heard at all and there can be an open conversation with people of differing opinions. I think some places are conservatives, in some places aren't. I can't operate in certain parts of the country either, like in certain companies.

It's just companies have their point of view. And I think the reason a lot of these companies pretend they don't is because when you have to say your values, you have to argue about them. Right, values is what you argue about. But when you have I had this

really interesting time YouTube. I went there to talk to them and they were talking about how it used to be all squirrel videos and nice things, and now they have a college ethical debate every day, you know, whether it's Logan Paul or whatever, um and And on some level, I'm like, well that's what. What's what it's about having values? You have to state your values, and I don't think that they can. I'm having an interest. I'm gonna have a pike as a guy who's doing all these polls

on conservatives. They don't get to talk. It isn't it is a liberal environment. It is. It just becase these companies are more tolerant. Tech has been more tolerant, and these are their values, And so I don't know if you can't talk, because I don't think that's I'm sorry. These people have so many opportunities to talk. At Google, there's like nine places to talk and all kinds of opportunities.

But I think once you say something that's not in their value system, maybe it's not a place you need to work, or maybe you should work somewhere else, or you know, I think that's been for I mean, as a gay person, you couldn't be gay like you couldn't and that of course that ended up being illegal in

some places. It's still not that illegal in many places. UM. But I just think you have to think about what values you have and if you have those values, not being cowed into saying you have to have everyone's point of view. This, this is our value, this is what we you know, every Internet company has a little statement of who they are, UM, and I think they're scared about that. They're scared about stating them. Essentially, that's interesting.

But I also think that there are some issue Jews that respectable, intelligent, well meaning people can can disagree, and I do you know, I wonder about our inability to have a respectful conversation about maybe, you know, certain things

are non negotiable. I understand that, but certain things that you can have a different point of view and you can learn from somebody and they can say, you know, this is how I feel about this, And I feel like those conversations aren't happening, and it really bumps me out, and I think it's really yes, it's so politicized, but maybe I was just thinking of the days some other point of view came out and I was like, I'm so glad to hear this point of view, like now

I know like people are like I can't believe people are like this. Thing, They've always been like this. They just have an outlet, and especially social media amplifies and weaponizes a lot of right, you know. And I when I think about it, I'm like, well, okay, now I soon see it. It's out in broad daylight. I understand the ignorance or whatever I think of whatever the point of view is most most many of my finding durant. But but you know, you know, you can't really persuade

somebody if you're not talking to them. There's a really good book that's written by the incoming president of the University of Virginia, Jim Ryan. It's called Wait What And And he gave a great graduation speech at at the Harvard School of Education, and it's basically, we've lost our ability to be even a tiny bit circumspect, you know. We we we have these instantaneous reactions and sometimes just

to take a moment and say, wait what. And anyway, it's very interesting to the way we hear things, the way we react to things, the way that we are in our own echo chambers, the way that we were preaching to the choir, especially on social media and Twitter. That's something I just wish once in a while we could all say wait what and then here each other a little bit, not on everything care of. But I'm being pushed back on in a very big way because

I do think we're hearing each other. That's the problem, do you I was I'm just yes, because I'm reading. I'm reading the actual book on Hamilton's, not the musical, which I really much enjoyed. If you read Turn, If you read that book, the stuff that was going on between Hamilton's, Jefferson Madison and Washington, Yeah, exactly who created

a problem at the end. But um, it was really quite the same, like it is even worse, like the kind of like an our democracy hung by a thread so many times, the Whiskey rebellion, the x y Z affair, we have no sense of history, is what it is. And if you read that, you're like, oh my god, oh my, like you you realize how and and the invective was so vicious, and through these different newspaper articles

they wrote against each other. There was an act as the Sedition Act for people remember it like that you people went to jail for having a Republican point of view if they if they resulted the government, and that was law on the books for a very long time. UM that that if you insulted the government, you were jailed. So people who are not in the of the Adams group, the Federalists, were put in jail for years and their

lives were changing. So I think this has been an American problem for years, is the lack of ability to have any memory and at the same time realize that we have always been like you know what I mean? And then social media and what's happened is Trump has just under given voice to all of it, and now we see it instantly, and that's what's discomforting about it. Um, but we don't this is not something. Go read that book.

Because then I sort of felt a little better. I was like, oh wow, we've been doing this for centuries, were on the cusp of anarchy at every single second. Um, alright, alright, But because I think it's not I think social media has made it worse and that these companies have a responsibility. And I will end on that because one of the things when you're talking about how do I get liked disliked?

I what I think happens. And I think the reason yours successful is because we just I hate to have something in common with Donald Trump, but you say it like it like it is for you, and I think people do appreciate that, whether they disagree with you or don't agree with you, if you have a cogent point of view and you're genuine these mediums, you thrive in them. I guess you know. I I still quite careful. I mean, I think that you are sort of you know, Carabar

the door. I'm a little more careful about some of the things I put out there in the world because I don't know, you know, I want to get the I don't care gene from you somehow, because I still I have that want, that desire to be liked, which is um you know, I have it less as I've gotten older, but I still have it. Sevent you're gonna say fuck you? What when is it? When? When? What age are you going to do that at? Well, I'm

I'm starting to say, uh, not not f you. But it's so sweet, shut hush, you get get out of fight me. That's about as far as I go. But I don't know, but I do think you get an enormous amount of criticism that I can't imagine having. Like I was thinking there was a story about Lena Dunham in Vanity that really I mean, but this is this is the world we live in, and I think I think you can you can say nothing and stand for nothing, or you can, you know, say when you feel strongly

about things. You know, I've been pretty open about saying we have to have a conversation about sensible gun laws. It is insanity. It is insanity. And no, it's not a panacea. No, it will never prevent gun violence, but it can reduce it, and it has to be a multi pronged approach. I agree mental illness is a part of it, but it's a you know, easy access to firearms is really a horrific thing. And I've been pretty vocal about that. So what's your next to you? You've done.

You've got me to have a have my coal And I'm actually taking a well known person to get screened in March. I'm not going to I'm going to escort this individual. I am not going to know. I am not going to actually perform the colonoscopy because I'm I'm not qualified, but I'm going to be sort of the escort, which will be fun because you know it's such a preventable disease, and you know, nothing feels better to me.

I mean, if you talk about anything I've done in my life, when people come up to me, Karen say, you know what I got screened for calling cancer because of you, and that screening saved my life, I mean that makes me feel like I'm walking on a cloud. So I have the colon of a twenty year old just in case you model clean clean? Have you? When was your last call? Well you're not? How old are you now? I'm old? Okay? So how many you've had one coal in oscopy? One? Yes, I'm gonna have one

next you Okay? Five years? Right? Five years and and and really five years every five years? Yeah? Tell everything, Well, depending on what they find. They found a McDonald cheeseburger when I did mine. You didn't take the pills. I know I will take take. But I want to end on one thing. So you where do you imagine you're gonna do next? I mean, obviously you're talking about Instagram, which I think is really interesting, but what and then I will tell you what I'm going to do next.

But what if you want to know? I do want to know, of course, I want what what What do you imagine if you could like design a career right now, like you're doing these documentaries, You're doing all kinds of things. What do you what would be the most interesting way? Still storytelling? I mean storytelling. I do love talking to interesting people. I like understanding sort of where they came from, how they got there. I love learning all the time.

I'm sort of insatiably curious. So I think I don't know exactly I need some career advice from you, Kara, because as I also like being connected to an audience or two people. I like feeling that that I have, through the access to people, that I can make them more I can make complicated subjects more understandable, or that I can introduce them to something that they're not aware of that will improve their lives or that will just make their day more interesting. I like being sort of

that conduit for people. And I think I think I have a pretty good sensibility about things. I think I've got a nose for news, as they say, I think I know I can sense when something is going to kind of be in the ethos, So I don't know exactly, but I just want to keep learning and discovering. And that sounds so cheesy and weird, but you know, I just enjoy being engaged and I like to take people along, and you should do interviews. I'm just telling you not

just because this is what I mean. What do you imagine your greatest interview was? I think I'm most impactful, which really isn't a word, but now I think it is a work because it's used so much. I think it's probably was Sarah Palin. That was a hell of an interview. Well, you know, it having nothing to do

with me. I just I think I basically went there with with questions that required critical thinking and accumulated knowledge, and I think I was very careful about asking them in a non confrontational way, and as a result, I think it exposed a lot about her and I think that was very helpful for voters. Yeah you were took a photograph, you know what I mean, And that's more like an X ray. Yeah you did, and you couldn't deny it. It was like, Okay, I see, you know

what I mean. It was really interest But I you know, I I feel like I've done a lot of pretty good interviews like this one. For example, this one Katie, Oh wait, wait, hold on a second more question, Hold on, okay, this from Gianna, my producer. Alright, what muscles and skills

do you think entrepreneurship draws upon compared to journalism? Um, Katie, I think I being irritating is I think the most important muscle skilled anyone has to be in irritating, irritating, being irritable and irritating and not being looking at something and saying why is this done this way? I think every great entrepreneur from Steve Jobs to down to today, lots of great entrepreneurs are every one of them is

irritating and irritated. And so they see something and they want to they don't They don't let anything stop them from doing it, and I think it's really hard. I think agreeable people don't invent yeah, you know, And I think that is important word probably and entrepreneurs uh vocabulary is why why? Yeah? Maybe why not? When under say it's it's more like I don't like this, I don't want to do this, I don't want to do this.

And I think our greatest you know, that will be from very difficult people Anyway, Katie, thank you so much. Fun when you come to New York so we can thank you so much. By the way, I wanted to ask you you're thinking about running for mayor of San Francisca. Get a million questions, kat you have to do and it's funny, funny, free. Maybe we'll see. I've decided perhaps I might aim even higher, Katie. Really you're gonna run for president? No, it would be senator am I talking

about you. Can I be your your press secretary? Oh my god? We would just go down and flames would be so good. Hey, it sounds like a sitcom, doesn't it? It does? It does, Let's write it. That's a wrap for us today. Thanks to our producer Gianna Palmer, our audio engineer Jared O'Connell, and our assistant producer Nora Richie. A big thank you to Emily Beana of Katie Current Media, to my assistant Beth de mos, and to Allison Presnett who tears it up on social media. You know we're

going to run out of these things after a while. Anyway, our theme music, you ask Mark Phillips wrote it. Katie and I are the show's executive producers and Cody Scully is our terrific engineer here in l A. And here's your weekly reminder that you can drop us the line at comments at current podcast dot com or at nine to nine to four four six three seven. We really

do value your feedback and your guest ideas as well. Meanwhile, you can find me on social media under Katie Kuric how Original, and you can find me on Twitter at Goldsmith b. We'll be back next week with the final installment in our Da Da Da Wonder women's series, where we'll be talking with dvf herself. That is right, people, fashion icon Dion von Furstenberg will be joining our show. Did you know she's also a former princess or maybe

a current princess. Once a princess, always a princess. Anyway, get excited everyone, and by all means call in with your questions. Our voicemail line once again to nine to two four for six three seven. Thanks for listening and we will talk to you next week