Wonder Woman: Diane von Furstenberg

animal prints and everything you would imagine. Dion von Furstemburg statue from the King of Bhutan. I think she mentioned, yes, yes, so yes, this little thing from the King of Bhutan. I have one of those actually in my powder room. I'm just kidding, But anyway, she really is quite an amazing woman. Her life is like something out of a

fairy tale. Before she turned thirty and I remember this, ladies and gentlemen, I'm old enough to she had married a prince, started a fashion line and was on the cover of Newsweek with that really famous style that put her on the map. That would be the wrap dress. That's right, and a fun fact, it was inspired by

the rap tops that ballerinas were in rehearsal. And another fun fact I learned preparing for this interview was that it was designed for women to make a quick getaway if they were with a guy they didn't really want to wake up, if you know what I'm saying an alternative to the walk of It was designed so that women could get the dress off quickly. But that that

may be wrong. It's sort of the the clothing alternative to coyote love, which means biting off your arms so you don't have to wake up the person with whom you slept. Interesting anyway, I read the Dion sold five million of these dresses by the mid nineteen seventies. And like most people who have had a long and public careers, Diannest faced her share of challenges to cancer, divorce, business challenges. So somebody needs to make a biopick of her life.

Absolutely well. She did have her own reality show on e a few years back called House of DVF. But she's an incredible woman. She's also very outspoken and she's all about at age seventy one, inspiring other women, which reminds me, Brian, this is the last episode Sniff Sniff of our wonder Women's series. I couldn't think of anyone more fitting to wrap it up. Anyway. We spoke to Dion about the events she's throwing an honor of International

Women's Day. We talked to her about her marriage to Barry Diller, her mother, who was a Holocaust survivor, and how she really infused her with this desire to succeed in many ways and to be independent. She had lots of advice for young women and young men. She's really an extra nary person, remarkable, and the fact that she is aging naturally and beautifully. I might add, we're saying Dion, by the way, because that was one of the first

questions I asked, is that Diane Dione. She answers to both, so she told me that Dion was her given name, so we decided to dutifully call her Dion. I should tell you, Katie, I'm actually Brian duly noted Brian. Anyway, here's our conversation with Dion, Bond Person and Burke. My name is really Dianne. I was born Dienne, so my mother husband they called Medienne, but my children call me, so it's whatever you want. Well, I think we'll call you Dion because that was your given name, and and

I like when people get my name right too. So yes, So here, Brian and I are here at the epicenter of DVF land. This is your office, this is your store, and this is your home. Well it's it's my My real home is in Connecticut, but this is where I camp out when I'm here, when you're in New York. So tell me what it's like to be in this space right now, at this point in your life with

the world. Oh, it is the how it is it? Well, it's it's so many things at the same time, because you know, there's such a disruption in the world, such a disruption in the world, and therefore there's such a disruption in every industry. And so as the chairman of the cfd A, which is the Council of Fashion Design of America, I have to advise all my fellow designers and help them to navigate the tsunami of all these

changes and and it's very difficult. So my advice. Usually before fashion Week I email everybody to wish them good luck. And this year when I emailed them, I said, you know, at this moment of disruption. It's my biggest advice to you is to be yourself and to stand for who you are and who your brand stands for, and don't look so much left and right and do what is right for you because at the end is that authenticity

that will last. What do you see is the biggest challenges that the fashion industry and really all businesses are facing. You mentioned the word disruption, But when you use that word, Yon, what do you mean exactly? Well, everything is changing. I mean, you know, you just have to make sure that you are true to who your yourself live. So us I mean DVF as a brand that is now forty five

years old. I mean that's a long time. It is a global brand, so it's time to take a major X ray of who you are and what you stand for. So I've gone through this exercise so that I can change the business model or alter the business model in order to be ready for this new world. You know, so you have to analyze yourself. So DVFS worked well. We have an iconic product, the rap dress, that has lived for years and years and years and years and

decades and so on. Now, I mean, and that is like a big deal that it has existed and survived for so many generations. We have a vocabulary of colors and prints. But then at the end we also have which is probably the most distinguishable thing, is that we have a um marketing people called it a love brand because we have a connection. Women have a connection and emotional connection with the brand and with the story and in some cases with me personally, or at least for

what I symbolize. I was gonna say, I think so many people associate you beyond with the brand, and also the brand standing for something beyond a rap dress or beyond colorful friends. But but but I am seventy one years old, you know, So I am aging. So how do you deal with the present? You know? And that's why now I had the creative director, Nathan Genderen, who was with me for the best ten years of the

second generation. He's back, and so something came from the past, and I'm very excited about it, and so I wanted something for the future. So the ar Muse is now my granddaughter who is almost nineteen and who is in college, and that that is the continuity of it all. Can I ask you about that? People hear about this term muse in the fashion industry. What does that actually means? Well, it's it's the face. It's the face of the brand.

You know, I I was the face of the brand for so long at some point, you know, it's so thank god. I have a lot of old pictures and the muses. You know, is is the woman? Who is the DVF woman? Right, if you have to say so? I kept on saying who is the dv The truth is DVF woman is the woman in charge. She's in charge of her life, or at least she feels in charge. She wants to be in charge. She wants to be

responsible for herself. And DVF the brand is supposed to give her the tools in order for her to be the woman she wants to be. I want to talk more about the business, but we also you have such a fascinating life story, Dion that some people know some people don't know that. Well, let's start at the beginning with your mom, who was a Holocaust survivor and who was told I guess she weighed very little when she

was released. Yes, my mother was. My mother was twenty two when she was living in occupied Belgium and she was arrested. She was arrested. She was twenty two. She was arrested because she was doing resistance and she was found in a resistance house, and she was very scared that she was going to be tortured in order to reveal the name of her bosses and things like that. So she said, no, no, no, I'm just hiding here because I'm Jewish. Now she was Jewish, but she wasn't

really hiding. She was working. But that's and the woman who interrogated her say, you shouldn't say that, because you're going to be shipped away, but she did. And so she was shipped away, and she was shipped away in those terrible cattle convoys where for four days until they got to Auschwitz. And and she was there. I mean, she was lucky that she was young and strong and therefore she was not killed. And she was put in a working camp. She was wor king in a bullet factory.

And then then they were shipped to another camp because they were losing the war, and then another camp. And when she finally was found by the Americans, she was forty nine pounds and which is less than her bones should be. And but it's very funny because now I have all the documents, you know, the Holocaust Museum sent

me all these documents. And in the documents that when she was found, she wrote, you know, she had to feel name, last name, where she came from a state of health, and even though she couldn't move, she wrote excellent health, which you know is why she was survived. And so, and my mother used to say to me always, God saved me so that I can give you life because I was born after she was told she would not.

She couldn't get pregnant for quite a while, and she got pregnant, she goes right away and she said the child wouldn't be normal, and indeed I was non normal. And uh and uh, and she said, so God saved me so that I can give you life. And by giving you life, you gave me my life back. You are my torture freedom. So it's wonderful to have a mother too that tells you that you are a torture freedom. But it's a very heavy burden. But I'm glad I had that burden and I was gonna and I honored

that burden. How how did that infuse you both through nature? Because of her incredible spirit and resilience, but also through nurture because these experiences obviously shaped her for the rest of her life. But she wasn't She was a tiger mum. You know, she was tough. If I was afraid of the dark, she would close me in the closet and she'd probably get the rest of today. And but but after ten minutes, when you're in the dark closet, first of all, it doesn't stay dark. You always have a

little bit of light that shows up. And second of all, you know, when why am I afraid the dark of the dark? So you know, it was tough to be her daughter because she was tough, and she wanted me to be independent, and she didn't want me to be needy, and she didn't want me to be afraid, and she wanted to equip me for everything that I could possibly happen to me. But I'm thankful for it. And that's why, very early in life I decided, you know, the only way I can deal with everything is to be in

charge of my life. And so what lessons do you think privileged kids today ought to take from your upbringing that you know often you hear about helicopter parents and parents who call all their kids and prevent them from taking unnecessary risks. That was not your childhood at all, And it told you. I think that those are not good parents. I mean is people who say constantly be careful and don't do I mean the the what you want most for your children is to be independent, because

there's no way you can predict what can happen. You can lose everything. You can lose your wealth, you can lose your vialance, you can use your health, but you never lose your character. And character building and making your children isn't independent is the best and the only thing a parent should do. And your mother taught you independence in more than one way. She left your father, which was a rare thing to do in that time. She left my father after sixteen years. Yes, and and you

supported her, and that stories in the book. And my father, I mean, I love my father, but I supported her, Yes, I did. And she always supported me too. I mean, you know, she never told me, oh don't do this, or it be it's dangerous. She was she was something my mother I mean, I mean, but of course it's very heavy. And while she was a layer alive, you know, she would always give advice to everybody. All my friends would come for her advice, and I would so annoy me,

and now I do the same hundred times work. I was going to say that story and much more is in your book The Woman I Wanted to Be, which was fantastic, but she wrote in two thousand fourteen. Yeah, and but but talk about sort of this privileged upbringing you had to dion because uh, you know, obviously you were pally means well once I and probably not as a child, but once you got married. I I was privileged as a child. I mean, I have loving parents and my my father was well off, so I was

privileged in that sense. I lived in Belgium and it rained all the time, and I had curly hair, and and I looked like so different than all my schoolmates and whatever, and and then I thought nothing would ever happen to me. My mother sent me to boarding school in Switzerland and then in England, and I'm so thankful that she did that because for me, it was beginning my own life where I started to socialize and to meet people, you know, out of my own surroundings. And

eventually I went to school university in Switzerland. I met this very handsome, good looking, rich prince Agon who was my boyfriend. He eventually became the my husband and the father of my children. So I through him, I discovered the world that I did not know that the jet said, so to see, did you feel comfortable in that world? Because I would feel intimidated. Well, I was intimidated at first, but I you know, obviously I would never show it. And you know, and at first I said, how do

everybody know everybody? And how does it happen? And and they speak, you know, five languages at the same time, and this and that and so on, and then all of a sudden, you're part of it, and you know, you don't you you find that normal. But that wasn't enough for me, so to speak. I didn't want to just be an idle Park Avenue princess. I always wanted to work. And I must say that Eggon always pushed

me and encouraged me to do that. And I started to work even before I was married, because I worked for this Italian man who had a factory and who taught me everything about printing and and jersey and and so. I mean, by the time I came to New York with my as a young bride and pregnant. I already had with me a suitcase full of samples, and that

was the beginning of my career. I loved your advice to women because it's the same thing that I tell young women, and including my two daughters about twenty Yeah, they were, I know, they're grown up women now. And I've always felt very strongly that women should not only, as you do, Dean, be engaged in the world, but also be financially independent because you never know what is coming around, because you can't be independent unless you can

pay your billiness. Well, that's what I learned. There's no way that's that's the first thing. That's why do you think it's so important? What it was that your mother? Who who taught you that? Yeah? My mother. My mother never worked because she really didn't have the health to to work. She really, I mean she was really damaged after the war, but she had the brains. She she was a force, and she always told me that you had to be. She didn't have to tell me, really,

I mean, I wasn't gonna be anybody's whatever. I just had to I just had to be. And that's my big advice, my number one advice to anyone, anyone, child, man, woman, whoever. Is the most important relationship in life is the one you have with yourself. And if you have that, any other relationship is a plus another. And to be needy

is a very unattractive condition. I agree. But you know the thing is, I know you feel that way, but you also through the years have been racked with self doubt, insecurity. I know that you called there's a passage in your book where you talk about calling Anna Wint where I believe you know she was having lunch breakfast like that. She wasn't where you are sitting now. And it was the morning, and I said, Anna, do you ever feel

like a loser? And she said all the time. I mean most people, only only real losers don't feel like losers. You know, IM put that on a pillow. Only real losers was interviewing you, and you asked the interviewer, don't you ever get up sometimes in the morning and feel like a loser? And the interviewer said, no, never, and you were sort of shocked, and you said, oh, I get up and feel like a loser all the time.

I feel like a loser all the time. Do you feel like a losersant okay, but but you know so the word loser is a very un active word actually, but but but the point is that you have doubts and oh, best quote and this is not my quote, but I use it all the time because when you do feel like that, this is what you have to speak out, allowed to yourself, and you say, when you doubt your power, you give power to your doubts. That's a very good one who said that. I think it's

worth there, but I'm not completely about Zach. We'll say it's DVF. We'll be back soon with DVF. Right after we hear from some of our sponsors. What's your middle name? Macm okay, Oh, that's good, b MG and k A. C. Will be back soon with DVF. And now back to our conversation with the one, the Only, Dion bon Thurstenburg. We should say, by the way, that being self reliant and independent doesn't mean, in your view, that you don't

rely on other people. And you talked in the book and in other interviews about the role of your husband's and mentors throughout your life. And one of your really critical early mentors was Diana Breland, who was a legendary editor at Vogue. Can you talk about the role she played and getting your business off the ground, you know, I mean to me, Diana every Land, it was the most intimidating thing in the world. You know. I walked

in and I was pregnant. Actually, I walked into that office, the Vogue office with all the you know, the perfume and the clothes and all of that, and I empty in my suitcase and I put the clothes on the rack, and then all of a sudden walks this woman, you know, with a long cigarette holder and black hair and red nail polish and red mouth. And first thing she said is a chin up up up, And I thought, oh my god, this is not going well anyway. And and

she received me and she said, oh, it's wonderful. And before I knew, I was out the door with a clothes on the floor and what has happened to me? And her assistant said, I think she liked it. I think she'll help you. And I said, well, what do I do now? And the assistant, Keshia Kibo, actually is the one who actually told me what to do. She said, you know, soon it's going to be market week. You

should take a hotel room. About what hotel, Well maybe if you take it in that hotel, that's where the California people come, and so they will you will have traffic. And then you should try to get a little story in women's wear daily, and you should do this, and you should do that. And then I did it all and that was and indeed that a brilliant helped me. She photographed my clothes and bogue and I was off, which proves my adage that no one is more important

than the assistant. Now, yes, that's right away to the assistant. Now it's true. It's well, it's really important just as a human being, but also they are often the whole that you should pay attention to everybody. I agree. I mean because paying attention is a secret in life, just paying attention to who and what and how and and talk to people as human being. That's my second pillow. Paying attention is the secret life because I think you have to be as kind to the doorman or the

cab driver as you are to the CEO. That is I think critically important. And it's also so important for your children to model that behavior because children watch and they absorb, and you have so much power on your children. I know, when you actually have children, especially when your children are teenagers, you think they don't listen to you.

I mean you think you're completely totally powerless. But if you wait long enough and you see you watch them when they have children, all of a sudden you remember. You realize that every single thing you said, they remember because they say themselves. So you have huge power on your child. I mean, had I known I had so much power on my children where they were growing up, I could have probably abused them. How how are your children and your grand my children? I mean that is

my pride. I have the most incredible family. I have a son and a daughter, four grandchildren. No one is banal. Everyone is generous. Everyone now is a kiss of death? Is I know? Then nobody is banal. Nobody is comes out of one form. But they know about generosity, and they are kind and fun and engaged, and each one is themselves. Is anyone bourgeois because you said that's the worst your bohemian? I mean you always be bohemia. I don't know, but no one is bourgeois. No, no one

is banal. No one of the things that I find so impressive among a whole list of things about you is how you have so successfully evolved through the years and changed and adapted your your role in your eyes just a bit. But and I know there have been challenges and setbacks along the way, but I really give you so much credit for noticing trends and changing with them. And how have you done that? And why has that

been so important for longevity? Life is a journey, right, and it's your journey, right, And so you know, landscape changes, it rains, it's sunny, it's desert, it's mountain. I mean, people come in, people leave, but you always on the trip. You know, it's your trip, it's your journey. And so it's very important to pay attention and and to understand and to constantly who am I going to be? I mean, when I turned seventy, what kind of old lady am I gonna do? That? Freak you out, by the way, No,

it didn't really. I mean I mean, first of all, I prepare myself yours in advance. I always do that. How do you do that? Well? Like, first of all, when I was I thought I would never make it to be thirty, right, And I remember I had small children because by the time I had thirty, my son was eight, my daughter was seven, so they were already there. But I remember telling them, you know, you have to

take care of yourself because anything can happen. You know, I could die, And I remember they looked at me and they were crying. So I don't intend to, but it's a possibility. And so you have to be in charge of your life. So I always prepare me oh, and then then forty and then this and that. I always prepare because probably I don't like surprises, and so I like to prepare myself. So what kind of an old lady am I going to be? You know? How

do I stay relevant? You know? And so the way to stay relevant is really to help people, you know, and and and and what you gain when you're successful. Two things happen once you could pay your bills. And too, you have a voice. And when you have a voice, it's your duty, but it's also you privileged to use your voice and the voice of the people that you know who have a voice, and weave this into a fabric so that you can have compassion and impact for

people who have no voice. And that's and philanthropy is intimidating when you're young. I mean, I you know, it's like landscaping. You know, landscaping you need an architect to tell you can I cut that tree? Or can I plan this? And then you start planting and you say, you know what, I could do it, and I philanthropy is a little bit that way, you know what I'm saying. When I started the DVF Award, I was so shy. I wanted to keep it so quiet because people were

going to say, who is she? Why? Why? Why does she feel entitled to create an award? But if you are, you create an award because you can give exposure and money to people, to women who do things, and therefore you encourage them. Now it's gonna be next April is in a April thirteen is going to be our ninth awards ceremony, which means that the year after it will be ten years. And so if I look back, I've given over five million dollars to all these different women.

They are not part of my family. I know them. I keep touch with them. Some we discovered and then they became you know, they've got more awards and more awards, and you turn around you say, wow, you know I've done something. So. I mean, at first, when you try something, you think it's so meaningless and so small in this but you pile it up. And that's what life is about. And that's why I don't understand people who refuse their age.

I mean, how can I pretend that I am not my age when I've lived so fully I should be twice my age, you know, So whatever. One of the other things you've learned over the course of your life is how to cope with adversity and setbacks. As Katie mentioned, Uh, the iconic wrap dress was hugely popular and then it wasn't and then you helped to make it come back. Can you describe that there was a rough period in the middle of those two things where the business was

really in tatters. You moved to Paris, and I know that you had some self doubts at that point that we had this big interview together when wasn't three Oh is it too Yeah? I just actually posted a picture of us. You looked much better than It was an unfortunate band period for me, right shore, Don't you looked great? Thing in my head was very straight and I like it. We'll seeing neither of us as please, but we both

like how we think you both looked great. But but you know, I think to Brian's point, you have had ups and downs and everybody no, I know, I know, but I think for you just powered through all the time, which you know. Also, you have to understand that sometimes people think you are the peak and knew yourself. No you're not. You know when I was like on the cover of Newsweek and that I was twenty nine, but I was terrified because I knew that I was going

through a difficult thing. And some other times when people think, oh she's a has been and blah blah blah, you already know that you're doing so you can only you have to kind of shut the noise out, don't you. You just have to do again. You drive your own car. The one thing you have to be is trying to be true to yourself as much as possible, because if you make a mistake because somebody told you to do that,

you will never forgive yourself. If you make a mistake because you believed in it, then it's okay because you were true to you. Fashion, though was so capricious, and the business is doing better than ever right now, isn't it? Well? Right? Now is the moment that, in a weird way, I'm shrinking the company in order to change a little bit of the business model so that it can grow for

the for after me. How do you change the business? Well, it's a lot, of course, you know, everything has changed because of the digital world, right, because of buying online. So a lot of effort go onto your website because you know so. So it's a lot directly to the consumer. You think brick brick and mortar stores will always exist, though I was talking to someone who knows a lot

about these things. And because of the communal experience, because people want to socialize, they want to actually touch things. It's it's both, you know, the people who started all the big you know startups that started online, then I'm doing brick and motor. But it has to be about the experience. It's very there's a lot of things that are different. It's the same, but you just have to

wear different lenses and look at the different way. You have to calibrate things, don't you constantly because things are changing every single day, easter and faster and faster, you know. So you know, We've got a question for you from one of our listeners. About clothing design and functionality? Can we play that? This is Brianna from Brooklyn. I just wanted to pose a question to Diane von Kerstenberg. Since she is such a proponent of comfortable fashion for women

as a way to gain confidence in yourself. Why does she think so few other designers seem to care about that. I'm thinking about zippers of the deck and buttons and places that we can't possibly reach. We never have functional pockets on our clothing, So why does she think that so few other designers are thinking about the practical aspects

of a woman's life. Thanks. You know, the French designer Christian Lacroix once told me that men men design to make costume and women design to make clothes and it has some value I mean women. And that's why even male designers have women's muses of women's assistant, because a woman knows what is important. For example, the fabric jersey is something that is I mean if you look at a piece of jersey and you look at a piece of saturn silk, of course the saturn silk is more beautiful,

but women know that the comfort of jersey. So jersey fabric, for example, is always been used by all women designers, from Koko Chanel to Donna Karen to Norma Kamali to Dine First Nomber. You know, so fashion design is is not art. Design deals with function. So I think women women designers understand function better. Can you talk about and then world transition uh dion to International Women's Day and

all that and what you're doing here? But mentoring has become so important to you, and I think I know I would like to ment tour more. I try to. But what makes a good mentor? Everyone says it's important? But how do you do it? What are some of the practical steps? I don't know. I think you know you don't know who will turn up to be your mentor. You really don't. I mean, in some cases you do. People say, oh I'm going to mentor you, and but

how do you mentor others? Now? But first of all, you in my case, I I really you you You just give advice without I mean, you know you don't want to patronize either, I mean, nothing is I mean I'll condescend them or any of that. Mentoring is just giving people advice, you know, introducing somebody to somebody else. I mean today through the emails. I have a game I play with myself that my first two emails every day is something that doesn't benefit me. I love that,

you know, and that, and it's so easy. I can introduce somebody to you without speaking, without leaving a message, and I can change that person's life. You know. That is so incredible, and that's the chain of love. And you do that and then funny, funnily enough to you know, half an hour later you may need that person that you just did a favor too. I mean, that is what but that's not what motivates you, which I think is so wonderful. It's like, has nothing to do with you.

I like to use my magic one. I see it that way. It makes me feel good and and I use it more and more, and as I get older and older, it's it's more and more effective because I know more people, and I have gained more legitimacy, and therefore people take my word for value, and so if I introduce somebody to somebody, they will pay attention. And blah blah blah. All that thought, it's time for another quick break. We'll be back with more DVF right after this.

Thanks so much to our listeners. Who called in with their thoughts. As always, Drew from Indianapolis wends the award for our most enthusiastic caller of the week. Let's hear what he had to say. Oh my gosh, Hi, I love you Katie, and I love Brian too, Oh my gosh. And I'm so excited about the Wonder Woman series. And I just would die for more of your interview with UM with Kara. It was so good. Oh my gosh.

I'm so sorry. I love Kara Switcher so much. I love Recode, I love her and I love you and it was just such a wonderful like and I'm so excited about your Dyane one person for an interview, and I have so many questions for her. Thank you so much. I love Dyane on person, burd I love you Katie, I love you Brian, I love Kara Swisher, I love your podcast. It is so wonderful. Thank you so much. Thank you. All I have to say is, oh my gosh, Drew,

I love you too. I'll have what Drew saving. Drew, by the way, also some great questions for Dion on which we are going to use for this very episode. So Drew, thank you for your compliments and thank you for your great questions as well. Remember we'd always love to hear from you, good, bad, or in different. Actually, if it's in different, it's probably a waste of all of our time. But give us a call on our voicemail line at nine to nine to to four four

six three seven. You may just hear yourself on our show. And you don't have to be quite as enthusiastic as Drew, but we like it if you Drew. So I want to call your attention everyone to another podcast you might enjoy. It's called Ricode Decode. It's hosted by one of our wonder women, Kara Swisher. On Recode Decode, Kara talks to key players and tech and media about how they're changing

the world. So whether you're a student and entrepreneur, a CEO, or just an interested consumer who wants to know what's going on in the world, you should understand how that change will affect everything. Once again, the name of the show is Recode Decode, hosted by Kara Swisher. You can find it and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And now back to the one, the Only Dion von Furstenburg.

So this podcast is going to air on International Women's Day, and you're hosting a four day event here for that occasion, and can you tell us a little bit more about what you're up to and wine. Well, I always, I mean as a European, I always celebrated International Women's Day, even before I remember ten years ago, almost no one in America celebrated that. So I always have celebrated that.

So this time we decided that we were going to do it not just a one day event, but it's actually a five days event and create panels and you know, and make it a celebratory but also networking. That's great. You know. Part of the DVF Award is one award that is People's Voice, so people everybody can vote. And the reason that I did that is that I therefore can have even though I will only have one winner, I can expose four, So I can expose four people

who are doing great works. So exposure is really part of what you can give them. You give them money, but exposure is too and then they get and then they get more support. So the four people that you can vote from is and you can go on DVF Awards dot com and you can vote and please I encourage everybody to vote because your vote is important. So the nominees are Aaron Louis Coutraro of She Should Run and It's an organization that is nonpartisan that helps women

to run for office. The second award is Luma Moffle of Fugiz Family. This is a nonprofit organization that uses the power of soccer, education and community to empower refugee children to successfully integrate in the US. The third people to vote for is Laura Hackney and Jessica Hapley from Any Canons, a non governmental organization working to transform survivors of human trafficking into software professionals. Human trafficking is so horrible and it is everywhere and it doesn't get at it.

There's so much great one and if you can change that, that is a very very big thing. And the last, but not least, is Georgie Smith who has created a Sense of Home, which is a nonprofit organization based in Los Angeles that is dedicated to create homes, community and the new beginning for foster youth after exiting the first

It can which an amazing organization. Amazing So all of those four are very important, so please go on DVF a world dot com and people's voice, and look at it, know about it, vote for it, tell your friend to vote for it, and and then get involved if you want to. Even just highlighting these four individuals and the great work they're doing is giving them a much higher profile. I feel bad because I would like to vote for all of them because you know, honestly, they're all doing

extraordinary ordinary. But by the way, by giving them exposure, then you know, maybe there will be next time on the CNN hero on this one, on that one. That's that's what we do, and that's and and we all like a family. So please vote. And you know what's your reaction to this me too moment times up in Hollywood,

to this whole movement to overcome sexual assault and harassment? Um, there was you know you gave and say, there was a quote you gave that struck me where you said a lot of men, including my husband, say, oh, but men won't be able to flirt. Yeah. Okay. So, first of all, when I grew up part of the generation that you just assumed that if you were a woman, you had your periods every month and you constantly will get groped. That's it. That's just part of as sure

as the monthly cycle. I mean, that's just part of being a woman. And so you manage yourself and you did the best you can, and you defended yourself and as I did, and whatever, and and and you never even mentioned the stories to anyone, because what's the point, you know. But I was also lucky in the sense that I only had three bosses before I was I

started my own business. And sure, indeed they all tried to seduce me, and some in a more cavalier way than others, but very quickly I was my own boss. So I never dealt with the pressure of being in a job that I liked, that I was good at, that I had to pay my my bills. I have children at home, and I was afraid my boss would rest me and I couldn't say anything because if I said anything, they would say that I'm completely so I never really So I think that what has happened is great.

Does it have collateral damage, Yes, do people come out and say things that were for sure, But if you compare the collateral damage to the amount of harassment that has been it's nothing. And I think that now you know, the genie came out of the of the bottle and it's not going back. And I think that it is very important and I'm all for it and I think that,

but again, you know, we have to be careful. Like my husband actually gets offended when I wear this shirt in charge, you know, and yet he's so understanding and completely supportive and he's never made me feel small and everything. But he said you should say in charge and vulnerable. I say no, I don't want to say charge and valerable. That's so funny. I know why because because it is, because it's an adjustment and they take it in an

aggressive way. And by the way, being in charge doesn't mean that, you know, I'm constantly in the driving scene. Being in charge is being in charge of your vulnerability as well. It's just you know, just make sure that

you are in charge of you. When you think about change though, and this is something that I think a lot about, in addition to awareness and attention to speaking out, what positive policy change ages, what positive changes can come from this movement that will actually really well, more change to the equation equality first and more more, how do you achieve that More women in office, for sure, more women in leadership roles? Yes, and more in equal pay

and just equality. You know, the problem is women are stronger, so we have to Sorry, Brian, it's true, and I know, so when we become equal, you know, it's it's we just have to make sure that you know, we I mean men just say okay, maybe we should do honor men, you know, I mean they it's very threatening two men. I worry too because I had someone say to me her husband, she's a doctor, husband's a very successful businessman, and she said, my husband told me he will never

mentor I young woman again. And that just broke my heart because now there's so much concern. Yes, but but I know, but that is part of the collateral damage, you know, I mean, and maybe a short term response maybe on the business woman on the business trip. We don't take the women. But that's why we need women in management, because then it's their decision. You mentioned Barry,

and I just have to ask you about him. You all have been married since two thousand one, and I didn't realize until I reread the book that you all actually knew each other in your early thirties. Oh we fell in love. I wasn't thirty years you were in your late twenties and he was thirty two and I know thirty three. And yes, we fell in love and very much so. And we stayed together for five years and then I left and but we stayed always very close and somehow we knew we would end up together.

And we always knew that. And what is about him? You dedicate this book to him for protecting all of you, you know, your children and the people you love, and and what is it about this relationship that makes it work so? Well? Listen, it's very mysterious relationships as so mysterious. Barry was first my lover, then my friend and my husband. Uh, he has failed so many roles. He's been in my life for so long. I mean he has known my children since they were tiny, so you know, I gave

him a family. Uh, it's it's and now it's just so obvious, you know. Now it's like forty five years that we know each other. Wow, I mean, it's it's so But we always knew very early in in in

our relationship. We he came to the country and we were driving back to New York and h and Barry drives very fast and then he has to slow down to let this very very old couple across the street, and they were helping each other and holding each other, and in a very weird way, both of us at the same time looked at that couple and knew that one day we would be that couple. And we both

remember that image completely vividly. The only thing we disagree on he thought, he thinks it's Madison Avenue, and I know it wasn't Lexington Avenue. In your book, you wrote his friends were incredulous. No one had known him with a woman before. Yeah, yeah, no it was. He was incredulous too, And but it was real love. I mean it was and now we know how that it was real love. And you know, it's only when you look back and you see and and this unconditional love, and it's, uh,

it's been amazing. I never thought that would I mean, I kind of knew it would end up together, but I didn't really know that it would be so meaningful. In in in in our Lives. You said recently to our old Yahoo colleague Josie that every marriage is open, or should be. And I just thought about that for a second. My my wife is not going to be thrilled with that. What does it mean open. Well, what does it mean to you? You're the one who said it.

Oh but I said that with my first marriage. Uh yeah, I mean maybe you were refraining to you at first. I was that was a little defensives. And yeah, but everything should be open. I mean everything should be open. Marriage, not marriage, you, yourself, everything. I mean, I'm very transparent and I don't lie, so as a result, I can't be blackmail abone. And you feel very strongly about the lying thing that the lying, Yeah, that really struck me reading.

I would not allow lying in in my families ever, ever, ever, ever, lie ever lie. I hate lies. I don't lie. I never will lie. That was very clear. But then you become you know, very kilful as as you know sometimes of how to say the truth. You never say a white line like you know, if somebody says, does this make me look fat? You say no, it's not the dress that makes no. I want to say, I wouldn't say that's just me. That's not being honest. Well, it's so inspiring to just sit here with you, and I

love that you embrace every age. You're my role model and really striving at every age. And here you are seventy one, and when you look at the next decade, Dione, what what do you see as your goal and your passion and your life. Well, right now I am transforming the business model of my company and so that I can put it in good hands so that it can

go on its own. And I want really to focus on on on my voice and making a difference and helping out and and and using using my voice and using my experience and using my connections to make to make it a better a better wound. Well, you've done that, I think almost all your life, really well, but certainly more in the last decade. You do more as you get older. I mean, for sure, and and and and

it's normal that's what you do. But because you have more experience, and actually you have more of a voice, because when you're very young you say, well, who am I to say that? Right? I mean, now I feel like I've earned it, you know I've earned it with yours have you? I've earned it with experience. I've learned, with making mistakes and having successes. And you have nothing left to prove but everything to give. Yeah, you still have a lot to prove. You want to ask the

listener question before sure, this young man called. He was hyper ventilating, Dion that we were talking to you. His name is Drew Shemily. He's from Indianapolis. He honestly, I thought he was going to have a heart attack. But he has a very sort of fashion question. What does Dion think of the se now, Buy now model that's popped up? He said, Designers traditionally show their collections before production. With see now, Buy Now, though the closes are available

to buy immediately after they appear on the runway. No, I think that the I'm the one who raised that years ago as the head of the cd A, because with social media and with influences and all of that, it was very very confusing for the consumer to see things out there and then to go to the shop and see something entirely different. So the gap had to

to merge. So I think it is very important that when you, I mean for us right now, as a company, we decided that we put the woman at the center of everything we do, and therefore when we show something, we message it at the same time and people and it's it's it's or it's a month later, but it's it's not so because before it was all for trade. The fashion shows used to be for trade, so you maybe you maybe you would only see one picture and

that was it. But now it's no longer like you would see things six to nine months before they're available, and I'd be like, wait, what, there's winter, So that's why you have to It's but but that's all part of the you know, the disruption of the digital one. So Drew, there you go. Dione answered your question. I know you're going to be very excited and and my

final question is incredibly shallow. But I love the way that you don't do stuff to your face because I watched the Oscars and I thought, some of those ladies, you can't get a match near them, you know what I'm saying. You know, I don't know. I I look at that too, and then I said, I appreciate it, and what But in a weird way, I kind of find interesting what time does to you and what time does to your face that all of a sudden you have this that you didn't have before, but it's there

because of so much expression that you had. So I know that I'm probably people probably look at me and say, why why she do things? I love it? Can I just say I love it, and I look beautiful, by the way. I don't know about that, but it's it's just a decision and whatever. But I wish more women would do this, because I think what's hard for women is when they don't age naturally. Of course, in a year, I'll probably come in with looking like I'm pulling five

gees from a facelift. I'm getting it. I don't think so, but I don't. I think people aren't used to seeing people look natural, and so as a result, they're they're they're almost conditioned have Lothian style to see women's feelings that and then everybody starts to love everything but is upholsted. But I don't judge, and you can leave that to me. It's okay, it's listen, this is my choice, and at this point that's my choice. And and and then and then you get to be that old and then all

of a sudden becomes interesting again. And and uh, I mean, what I don't understand is people who say, oh, you don't look your age. I don't tell me that. Tell me you look great for your age. That's a compliment, But you don't look your age. I am my age. I've lived every single day so fully. I deserve to be my age. I cannot. I don't want not to be my age. I just want to be the best of what I can in my age. It's so weird. I mean, when children are little, Oh you're eight years old, Great,

you're gonna be ten. Oh, you're twelve, and then all of a sudden, you know, you stop celebrating that you are getting older. It's it's it's a very odd thing. I try to celebrate and I try to be incredibly transparent that I'm sixty one years old, and I'm okay with that. I mean, sometimes I'm like, the only thing that upsets me is that I don't want to stop,

and I don't I don't want to die. Well, I mean, but if you were told, let me tell you something, if you somebody told me that I would never die, I think that really would confuse me. I don't think I would like that at all. So you're not afraid at all of death. I wanted to be the longest away from me than possible. But I think that to know that you will die is giving more value to

your life. Before we go, Can I ask one thing that maybe a little funny Barbara streisand got a lot of attention for announcing that she had cloned her dog. You also cloned your dog. Well, my husband closing these songs? How about that? And you know who knows? I said, I would joke that maybe he's cloning me. Maybe there's a twelve year lady somewhere. We should all be so lucky. Dion on fer Senburgh, thank you. This was so fun.

I love seeing you. Thanks, Thank you well. Folks. Up marks the end of our show and the finale of our wonder women's series. It was fun, wasn't it. Brian only men from now on? That's enough of the women, only white men, right, perfect? So I really liked working on our first series for the show, and I don't think it's going to be our last. Yeah, we'd love to get ideas from other folks. What would they like

to have a deep dive on. I'm no, we're thinking about doing a series on cancer, and there's so many other topics that deserve I think not just one podcast, but several podcasts. So we'd love to hear from you. What are you all interested in? Because we're here not only to feed our own curiosities, but also to serve you. That's right. We're here to serve you, help us, help you, and leave us a message with your ideas for new series at nine to nine, two to four, four, six,

three seven or comments at kirk podcast dot com. By the way, we oh big thank you to Dion von Fersenburgh and her entire staff for hosting us at her beautiful office for this episode. Thanks also to Gianna Palmer, our producer, our audio engineer, Charod O'Connell, our assistant producer, Nora Richie. What can I say, It takes a village people.

Also my assistant Beth Demaz, who I don't know. I couldn't get dressed in the morning without bath, much less figure out how to get anywhere literally Bena over at Katie Kirk Media, Alison Bresnik, who takes my Instagram stories by storm with a little help from me. If you ever wonder though, who's holding the camera, usually it is

Allison Mark Phillips or at our theme music. And you can find Katie on social media under Katie Kurk me on Twitter at Goldsmith b. Katie Kurik and I are the show's executive producers and don't forget to leave us your reviews on Apple Podcasts. Everyone. It really does help more people to find the show, so we would appreciate a review. Five stars would be nice. Brian and I will be away next week recording some special episodes for you at south By Southwest in Austin, Texas. I'm very excited.

I've never been there, and while we're there, we're going to be rebroadcasting an episode of one of our favorite podcasts, director Ava du Verney. I'm excited to see her new film, A Wrinkle in Time, which is out March nine, and she's certainly of the moment because we talk a lot about diversity in Hollywood, about female directors, and that's getting a lot of attention these days, and she's very active in Time's Up and Me Too and all these movements

that are transforming the entertainment industry. We'll be back with a fresh episode the week after next, so we'll talk to you soon. Everyone,