Valerie Jarrett: Advising POTUS

It has some kind of gold bronze e I would say, sort of gilded wallpaper, a lot of portraits of men looking very stern, and I have no idea who they are. I think there's enough goal that Donald Trump would feel pretty comfortable, and I think so too. But this is actually a war room. We hear a lot about war rooms and campaigns, but this is a warm room here in the E O B. Well, I think part of this building used to house the offices of the old

Secretary of War. We didn't have a Secretary of Defense until after World War Two, and so the person who held that office, which I believe excluded the Navy um, would have benefited from some of these very fancy rooms. I feel powerful just sitting here, Brian, and talk about power. We have a very special guest, Valerie Jarrett. She is a top advisor to the President but also probably the best fob friend of Barack of anyone who works here, so it proximity to power is the closest thing literally

to power. I think she was in an enviable position. She certainly has witnessed an extraordinary eight years and it will be so interesting to hear her talk about the high points and some of the low points as well. And it will be fascinating to hear her views on the fact that Barack Obama is going to be succeeded by someone who essentially ran to over return his presidency. I'm sure that's a very painful point for a lot

of Obama loyalists. It's we good, okay, Bellery Charet. We're so excited to have you on our podcast, Welcome to the White House, Katie, delighted to have you. Thank you, and Brian and I have been so looking forward to this interview, and we wanted to start by asking you how you're feeling. I mean, this must be an incredibly emotional time for you. The end of the Obama administration

is coming soon. Tell us how you're feeling well, you know I've been here since day one, January two thousand and nine, that it has been truly the most remarkable eight years of my life to be able to be uh witness to a transformative time in our country, and really to have that bird's eye view and have the ability to work with someone who I have known for twenty five years in respect and love both he and

his wife. So dear so, I think in the course of the day, I probably have every possible imaginable emotion. So just name some of those emotions. Well, appreciation for the people with whom I've had the privilege of working here in the White House, as well as ordinary Americans from around the country who uh we have had the privilege of touching and having them touch us. And I will cherish the memories I have of the team here

and those folks for as long as I live. So you have very positive, obviously positive memories of being here. But I imagine there have been some disappointments. There have been some disappointments along the way, some frustrations. There have been frustration times since you've been just really ticked off. True, that's true, That's all true. But I will say, um by nature, I have an optimistic spirit. But the other

thing I'll say is is that UM. One of the important UM strengths I think that the President has and I have tried to learn, is to take the long view and to recognize that there is an entrenchment in holding onto the status quo, and that when we are the force for change, that means it's going to make people uncomfortable. And sometimes people resist change, even if it's changed for the better, because we all kind of like

the comfort zone. And so when you come here and your intend is to kind of disrupt that status quo, you're going to take an inevitable amount of heat, and that's going to cause frustration. Some of the criticism is totally unjustifiable. Some of it, you know, constructive criticism always welcome, UM. But I think what has frustrated me most is the people who have put their short term political interests ahead of what's good for our country. So that I won't miss,

but most other things I will. Can you give me example of somebody who did that? Sure, I can't easily. Senator McConnell, who decided on day one that his number one objective was going to be to ensure that President Obama was not re elected. So let me take back to what was going on in day one. Our economy was in a free fall. Our banks were in the Virgin collapse. The automobile industry was literally in bankruptcy. We had a healthcare crisis, We were in two wars. We

had a total dependence on foreign oil. Your number one goal is to make sure President Obama doesn't get re elected. How About let's write the economy. How About let's make sure everybody gets healthcare. How About let's figure out how we can wind down the wars and try to uh find Osama bin Laden. Those were constructive things that we

could have done together. And so his willingness again to just focus through the political lens as opposed to how can I make sure that you can afford to go to college and that your kids can have a better life than you. So before we talk more about politics, Senator McConnell, Donald Trump, the last days of President Obama's time in the White House. UM, I'd like the audience to get to know you a little bit better, because your story is pretty extraordinary. You were born to American

parents in Shahra's Iran. What were you doing there? Well, I was there because my mother was there. So my father was a physician and when he was discharged from the army, he was looking for ways of continuing what he enjoyed most, which was research. And uh, he and my mother are adventuresome spirits, and a lot of the jobs that he was applying for in the United States, because he was African American, we're offering him salaries that

were not competitive with his peers. And so they said, well, look, let's just go on an adventure. At a time when they didn't have children, and so they started looking for job opportunities. At that point, the um Iran and the United States had extraordinarily strong diplomatic ties, and the Shaw of Iran was very interested in ensuring that the Iranian

citizens were receiving the best possible health care. So he recruited through his Department of Health, physicians from all over the country, all over the world, not just the United States, but all over the world to come and help start hospitals in regions that didn't have state of the art hospitals. So my dad helped start the Namazi Hospital in Sharaz and I was the second baby born in the hospital.

Why didn't you become a doctor two reasons um. One organic chemistry, I feel that was a show stopper, and the second, which was in rapid um tandem, is that I was dating a medical student who took me to his anatomy class where they were dissecting cadavers. You know. After that, that was that. But I did intend to be premed when I first started went to Stanford. I went to Stanford and University of Michigan, and then I after medicine fell through, I decided we'll be a lawyer.

So then I went to write to the University of Michigan. And then you returned to Chicago, where you're played a pretty sort of storied role in that city's history, in particularly to African American history. Can you talk a little bit about that. Yeah, well, I think probably the commitment UH to service goes way back in my family. My great grandfather was first African American to graduate from m

I t UH. He was the first African American architect in the country and devoted his life to um building UH, primarily at Tuskegee Institute. He designed most of the buildings on that campus, but he also did schools around the country and cared a lot about ways of making sure that the African American community was housed well. And then his son, whose name was also Robert Taylor, was the chairman of the Chicago Housing Authority. And so those were

my two of my ancestors. And then my parents always were both academics, but always believed in public service and giving back to communities, to those who much has given much as expected was the value that I was raised by. Going into bublic policy was really in your genes. I think a lot of responsibility. I mean, it's so incredibly impressive when you hear about your family history. Did you feel that you had to continue that tradition in any way or do you think it was so It wasn't pressure,

Katie at all. I never felt a burden to do something committed to making our community better, however we define that community. And in fact, I spent the first six years of my career practicing law, and my parents thought it was terrific I had. I was the first lawyer in our family. I worked for big law firms, fancy offices, and he was actually having my daughter that made me realize that what I was doing wasn't sufficiently satisfying. And you know, when you leave your kids, you want to

be doing something important. UM. And I was at that point a single mom, and so I felt drawn to be there and be home and be that perfect parent. And yet every day I was doing something I didn't think as useful and I didn't think it was something that would make her proud. And so in terms of my motivation, I think my parents just wanted me to work hard and do something that I cared about. I wanted her to think highly of me, and that's what

drove me into public service. You also, um, obviously became very very friendly with the Obama's early on, and you played a bit of a role, Valerie, I know, in their courtship. UM. See that now, all right, now, let's say good, let's correctly because we're confused about it. You know, it's been everything from you set them up on their first date to you what I recall that you went out with them one night. I did. I did after they were engaged. So I take no credit for the romance,

UM getting going. And in fact, the reason we went out to dinner is because I had offered the first lady a job working for me in the Mayor's office. I was Mayor Daily's deputy chief of staff at the time, and someone had sent me her resume and said, you know, brilliant young woman has no interest in being at a law firm. And I said, that's my kind of person, and so I, uh, ten minutes into the interview, I was just bowled over, and also realized after about ten

minutes I was no longer interviewing her. She was interviewing me, and I was trying to sell her on why she should do this, and I made her an instant job offer. She said, wisely, let me think about it. And then when she got back in touch, she said, my feelance thinks it's a dreadful idea, and he doesn't want me

to go work in the mayor's office. He's started as a community organizer, rallying against government, trying to force government to be a force for good, and he's concerned that if I'm in there, then maybe, you know, we might disagree, and what will happen if I if she disagrees with what the mayor wants to do? Long story, Sure, she said, would you mind having dinner with us and let's talk it through and let's see if we can convince him that you're right and it's a good fit and that

he's wrong. And I did, and that was years ago. What did you say to convince him? I still remember that dinner pretty well. You're smart, asked that question. We talked about and he was very good at getting me

to open up about all kinds of things. Uh. We talked about my first five years living in Iran at the time he spent in Indonesia, what it was like for me to go from Iran to London for a year and then back to the United States, where I had an English accent and spoke three languages and started at a public school, and kind of the bullying that I went through and the teasing, so everything was just totally screwed up when I first came back to the

United States. And then he talked about what it was like for him living in Indonesia and then going to Hawaii and being from mixed parents and and so it was a really frank onnest conversation kind of about who we were as people, what our view was of the world, what it was like to live outside of the United States, and how that gave us an appreciation for the United States and just how extraordinary of a country it is.

And I think that those basic kind of core values and perspective about the world is where we first did. So did he have you at Hello? No, he had me after like three hours. He had me hit Alo, he had me before dinner. I think I had him after the end of that dinner, because at the end of the dinner I said, I know, this was a test, how did I do? And They're like, we'll get back to you. But she did end up coming and joining my team with White at the Mayor's office. So was

that the beginning of your friendship? Yes, it was, and we worked together for a couple of years, and when he first ran for state senate, I helped him on that campaign. And then later the first lady joined the University of Chicago and I was on the board there, and she joined the Medical Center where I chaired the board, and so her paths and mine crossed professionally until we came here. And then when he ran for U S Senate, I chaired his finance committee and we lived in the

same neighborhood. I've known, Uh, he's known my daughter. I think we were talking last night since she was six, So it goes back a long way. So you became one of three senior advisors UH in the Obama administration. Do you think that your friendship has ever not served both of you? Well, there have there been times during these eight years where I don't know where you were emotionally usurped maybe where you might have been intellectually. I mean,

how do you separate those two things? And were there at time times when they overlapped in a way that wasn't helpful? You know, I think about that a lot because people have often said to me, Um, does the friendship get in the way of being the senior advisor? Does the senior advisor get in the way of the friendship? That's a much better way of asking the question. I just asked, thank you, but only because I've heard it a lot so I know it well. I think it

has only helped. I think that part of being a senior advisor is knowing the person really well who you are responsible for advising, UM, trusting that person, and having

that person trust you. And senior advisor to the President United States, Um, you want a person who shares your values, your vision for the country, your motivations, and so I think it has actually been a real strength, and we compartmentalized, and so when we're in the office, I call him Mr. President, and I make sure that whatever advice I give him is well thought out and that I've consulted broadly and widely.

Since part of my responsibility through public engagement and in the governmental affairs is to make sure that I'm not just talking to him off the cuff, but it's informed by the American people and the other elected officials whose lives are going to be impacted, jobs will be impacted by what we do. So I'm very careful about his time, and I'm very careful about making sure I have my ducks in order. When we're socializing, I just tell him whatever comes off the top of my hat. But we're

not talking about my job. I mean, who in their personal life when you're hanging out with your friends spend a lot of time talking about your job. His whole point when he's down is to be down, and so I'm very respectful of that unless he brings up, so it's kind of up to him. But I would never try to burden a dinner conversation with what we're doing at work. We talk about our kids, We talk about television shows, we talk about what are we going to

do this weekend, just like everybody else. And I think, I think honoring the necessity for normalcy in his life is where I'm being the best friend. So here's how the New York Times described you a few years ago, and this struck me. She is the single most influential person in the Obama White House. Partly it is her ubiquity, the guiding hand and everything from who sits on the Supreme Court to who sits next to him at state dinners.

The White House staff memos peppered with VJ thinks or VJ says If Karl Rove was known as George W. Bush's political brain, Ms Jarrett is Mr Obama's spine. And this tidbit from somebody who probably isn't too fond of you. She is the only staff member who regularly follows the president home from the West Wing to the residents, a practice that has earned her the nickname the night Stalker. How do you react to that? Well, first of all, I think that, um, it is only natural in Washington

for people to um be threatened by proximity. That's point number one. And so I take a fair amount of that with a grain of salt. By it's only natural because of our relationship that you might have something like that kind of a title. Um. I think that people who know the president know that he's the one with the firm, steady spine. He's the one that's never wavering.

He doesn't need me to buck him up in that respect at all, and that if anything, on days when I am and other members of our team are feeling glum, he's the one who says, remember why we're here. And early Anni used to tease me because I would watch cable television and I would come in ranting and he'd say, turn off the cable and turn on the American people. And it was a nice, like, you know, jolt to say, Okay, you're right, Why am I bothering you with some um

gobbled leg up? And when we are the time you ever is so precious you have to use it really well. Uh So that's kind of my reaction to it, I will say, I think, Um, I think people now appreciate the role that I have in the way that when you start with a new team, everybody's feeling a little insecure, and that that kind of Um, nonsense is just perfectly normal.

But I think the folks who were here now and those with whom we've worked so closely over the years, recognize how important it is for me to be not just the advisor to the President, but a member of the team. We'll be right back with Valerie Jarrett. We're going to take a quick break to tell you about our sponsors, and we'll hear from some visitors outside the White House. There's nothing more idyllic, or perhaps more American

than the White House. At Christmas time, I sent Brian out because because it was yeah to talk with some White House visitors from all over the country. Have a listen. Where are you guys from Keller, Texas, Trustful Alabama, dr North Carolina, away from England, London. We live not in London. Say yeah, is this your first time at the White House? It is for me. Yeah, it's not my first time. It is the first time at the White House. Yeah, first sign to d C. So I just go here

this morning. It's my first time. Yes. What do you think President Obama's legacy is? Wow? That's a What do you think I think his legacy has changed? He's done a lot of change. Um, done a lot of good for the country, So I think he left his mark in a good way. You're gonna miss him. I will miss him a lot, I might cry. How do you assess the last eight years under President Obama? Trying? Trying to assess or a trying time for you? A trying time.

Are you excited about the transition to Donald Trump? Nervous about it? How do you think about it? A little nervous? But I think he's He's going to be good. Um, I don't know. It's it's it's subject is a very touchy subject. But we're going to roll with the punches. I think most people and you kind of fairly, we're nervous about it than anything else. But I guess let's see what happens when he gets in. I'm very excited about the transition. I mean, it's it's America. It's a democracy.

I don't have to have to be a fan of it. It It is what it is, and so why our democracy works, So we have to support it. Okay, loyal listeners, we have a question for you. Two thousand sixteen was considered by many, I think by most, probably by all, to be a very tumultuous year. What do you think the best thing that happened other than our podcast in sixteen? We'd love to hear from you. Call nine to nine, two to four, four, six, three seven. Brian Goldsmith will

be standing by to talk to you. I'm kidding, but there is a recording and we'd love to hear from you again. The best thing that happened in two thousand sixteen? Give us a reason to ring in the new year. Right, we're back with Valerie Jarrett. Um I I we have to talk to you about the election. I know you described it as a punch to the stomach and soul crushing. Do you think it was a repudiation of Barack Obama? Not at all. If you look at where he's pulling today,

he's as popular as he's ever visually popular. Was it a repudiation of his policies? No, I don't think so at all. He wasn't on the ballot. I mean, obviously he campaigned for Secretary Clinton. What was clear is that his popularity was not transferable. What happened, Oh my goodness, there are going to be far wiser people than I to figure that out. Very wise story. If you had to say, she didn't get enough votes in the places where she needed to have them too much about her,

and it was Clinton fatigue. I have no idea. I really just don't know what you do. But you're still going to say I don't know because for right now, Um, I mean I described those emotions of how I felt the day after the election, and you know what, we've had to pick ourselves up and and we have to do for President elect Trump what President Bush did for us,

and that has running very smooth and orderly transition. I was so impressed with and I coachared President Obama's transition, so I was right in there, and I know how supportive President Bush and his team were to us. And again different party coming in and President Obama's direction as that we are do exactly the same thing. President typewriter keys, what did they do? And they'll move the we are

we are some of the outgoing Clinton people. It was a bit exaggerated, but there were a few pranks on the Clinton side. Come on, nothing up your sleeve. We have nothing up our sleeves. We're just going to do the very best because in so doing we've learned a lot. To your earlier question, in the last eight years, and we feel responsible for giving them the benefit of what we've learned, and then it's totally up to them whether

they want to accept it or disregarded. But my time and my energy, my emotional energy and my physical energy, Katie, are going to the transition and wrapping things up that we have to do. Do you think President Obama regrets giving Donald Trump such a hard time at that White House correspondence dinner back in two thousand eleven, he was

on a roll. Uh. Donald Trump was not amused, and some have even suggested that really motivated Donald Trump to run for president, even though he had discussed it prior to that at night. Does president has President Obama ever said, damn, maybe I should teasted him so much? He has not said that to me. I mean, though, it's all it

was all meant and fun. My goodness that it was intended to be funny, and it was intended to kind of I mean, if you look at all of his correspondence remarks, they're always intended to kind of poke fun at the people who have been poking fun at him

all year long, and it's his opportunity. Trump hadn't poked fun at him, He had perpetrated this whole notion that he wasn't a US citizen, this false notion that he was for this false notion, Yes, but and so so the president uses that for humor, just as he has used so many other things that have been totally unjustified, and did made humor out of them as well. And that the President must not have found that amusing or funny,

the whole idea that someone was spreading these falsehoods. Well, of course it's not amusing or funny when it's happening to you. But the correspondence dinner gives him a chance to poke fun at it in a way that hopefully has people appreciate how ludicrous most of is. And he does it in a always in a very self deprecating way, um, which is his style. And it's it's really too I mean, it is intended to amuse, but it's also intended to inform.

And I think he does it really well. And I have no idea whether or not that's what motivated President Electromp to run for office. He said in a recent interview Valerie quote. You know, I'm like a smart person. I don't have to be told the same thing in the same words every single day for the next eight years. So is that what the intelligence the daily intelligence briefing is being told the same thing in the same way

every day. Now, I don't think you think that, and neither do I. I'm obviously not going to tell you what's in the daily briefing. It's all classified by the bizarre that he's not being a part of it. Well, we'll see when he becomes president what he does. But what do you make of this broader wedge that is now being driven between the president elect and the intelligence community, This sense that he's in fact signing with Putin over

Republicans like John McCain and Lindsey Graham. Well, you know what, he's going to have to sort all that out, and I won't be here to advise him to how he does that. He's going to have to figure that all out, and my guess is that they will. You know what, I don't have to I don't really have a guess. We'll see what he does. Do you feel like doo doo doo, doo doo doo doo doo. You're living in the twilight zone. These are interesting times. She's trying very

hard to be a politic. If I can put words in your mouth representative of a president who's trying to provide the president elect as smooth a transition as he received, I wish I had said it in those words. I'm looking forward to Valerie here and unplugged personally in a few months. But but speaking of the transition, you know, the president of the President elect man in the White

House right after the election. Now, they've been talking fairly regularly on the phone that they I don't know exactly how many times, but they certainly have kept in touch. Can you characterize that conversation anyway? I mean, obviously not going to reveal what they said, but how how is the president sort of thought about his conversations as he

learned anything new about Mr Trump? You know, I would say that what the President UM is trying very hard to do is offer the President elect his best counsel, and to do that in a confidential way, because that's where trust comes, and to give him the space he needs to make what are going to be some pretty important decisions, and to categorize it more deeply than that runs the risk of UM in any way, UM impeding that effort, and I don't want to impede that effort.

So I think that the President has made himself available to the President elect, and Um, those conversations have been constructive. Let's let's talk briefly about the Affordable Care Act, because I know that's something you want to share with people. Thank you. And I think it's sort of a two part question. On November one, it was announced that premiums were going up, and some people thought that that might

have impacted the election one of many factors. Um, do you think it was too far reaching, why didn't it work better or for some people? And what is your biggest regret when you look back on healthcare reform. Well, first of all, UM, let me correctly comment about premiums going up that high. The American people can obtain healthcare under the exchanges for seventy five dollars or less, and so you have to factor in the subsidy for the people who can't afford it. We have had double digit

premium increases our in our country forever. The healthcare costs under the Affordable Care Accidency Affordable Care Act have gone up at those slowest inflationary rate in the last fifty years.

So it is working. It's working. Well, they're over twenty million people who have healthcare who probably didn't have it before who have it today, not to mention the hundred and fifty million who are now covered from loot, not losing their plan if they have a pre existing condition, or having their premiums jacked up, or having annual or lifetime caps kick in right when they need their insurance.

The most women who are able to get preventive care without a cope, whether it's cancer or birth control or domestic abuse counseling, all of these benefits that are in the Affordable Care Act. Children who can stay on their parents plan until they're twenty six. So there's a lot in it that is very very good and worthwhile. To your question about whether or not um he did too much, you've always got to try to do as much as possible, keeping in mind that what you're trying to do is

make sure that we're health. There there's nothing more fundamental, obviously than our health. And he wasn't willing to just do a small slice when he had an opportunity to do the whole thing. And the door has always been open to constructive suggestions for ways to make it better. But what the Republicans have done. I think it's now over sixty times is vote to repeal the entire package. I don't know how you look those mothers who have six children in the face and say, no, you shouldn't

have affordable health care. I don't get that at all. I think they're going to I will I. I just hope not. I it's like it's numerous uno on the agenda. I think if you start looking at what the impact of that will be on people who now you're saying because you're a cancer survivor, you can't afford health insurance and you can't obtain it anymore, when that's who needs it the most. You're going to say that a child with a chronic asthma condition is not ensurable when they

know you're gonna have a lifetime challenge. You're gonna kick all these kids off their parents plans when they don't have a job that provides health insurance. I just think that the consequences of of repeal without a replacement that provides the basic benefits that are in the A c A is going to hurt a lot of Americans. And this is coming out on a day that is important for the A c A. Why is that. Well, the

enrollment period began November one. We are encouraging everyone to try to sign up by December because if you sign up by the fifteen, you're gonna have health insurance on January one. What better New Year's present to yourself and your family than that. But the enrollment period does run through the end of January, and again we're seeing in the first twelve days of this enrollment period we had

a million people sign up. People want healthcare and they realize it with the subsidy, they can get it for a very inexpensive cost compared to one trip to the emergency room. One former advisor to the president said to me recently that, ironically, President Obama got a lot more on in the early years of his presidency, but he's a much better president today than he was in two thousand nine. Or do you agree with that assessment? And if you do, Uh, what do you think he's learned?

How do you think he's gotten better, What strengths have come through, what weaknesses have been corrected? Well, of course he's a better president today than he was eight years ago. We're all better in our jobs after eight years doing them. Uh, And this is a job where as I think his predecessors would say, there's no way you can be completely prepared for until you get here, and when you are the one who's responsible for making the kinds of decisions

that the President of the United States has to make. UM, you build on a foundation of hope, uh and experience. But this is new and so yes, of course he's a much better president today. I think when you say he got more done, I think that, as I described at the outset, the economy was in this freeth fall and it was important to him to move swiftly. And when you look at the fact that our unemployment rate went up to a high ten percent and now it's four point six, the steps city took early on helped

get us to where we are today. So I don't look at I look at it in that continuum. Obviously, the Affordable Care Act was passed, the Recovery Act was passed, UM, there were numerous successes on the world stage that laid the foundation for now. The fact of the matter is, I think where we have been more effective in the second term is a lot of the work that we

have done that didn't require Congress. And so when it as it became clear, and perhaps it should have become clearer earlier that we were going to have such a hard time, but it was so hard to believe that they weren't going to work with us. But we pivoted and UH did a lot of work at the state and local level where the impact has been dramatic um as well as with the private sector, and leveraged resources

and efforts to have a maximum impact. And so if you look at everything from and take an issue like paid leave, were the only developed country in the world that doesn't have a federal paid leaf policy, but now cities and states all across the country, as well as private sector are requiring paid leaf. UH take an issue like raising the minimum wage. We again tried to get Congress to raise a minimum wage. They didn't. Cities and states all across the country and private employers have raised

a minimum wage. People think that's really the answer to a lot of issues. To do it more at the grassroots, state and local level. You said that was one of the biggest disappointment, one of the two biggest disappointments. What

was the second comprehensive immigration reform? Profoundly disappointed that and then They're both issues, Katie, were the vast majority of the American people supported what we were trying to do, and for again short term political interests, we were unable to get the Republicans in Congress to move forward on

either one. But the momentum is building in the States, and eventually that momentum, we believe, will put sufficient pressure on Congress that they respond to that to the people who elected them and in whose service they are supposed to be. Are you worried, that, Valerie, that Barack Obama's legacy is going to be slowly painfully for you and for him and other people who support his policies dismantled

by a Trump administration. There's the head of the e p A. The person he wants is a basically doesn't believe in climate change. They want to dismantle the Affordable Care Act Republicans do um, is that depressing for you and scary? Of course it's scary, and of course it's depressing, and we're hoping it won't happen. And again, through the transition, we're going to try to provide as many facts, evidence, space facts as to why we put in place the

policies we did in the hopes that we will persuade them. Um, we may not be successful on every front, but my goodness, we're going to get caught trying. We have a listener question, Valerie, that's instincts. On a personal note, Hey, this is Jared sim Sar from Charleston, South Carolina. Valerie, Jet, So, you have been one of the President's closest political and personal confidence over the past eight years, and so I'm wondering

two things. One, how has the presidency changed him over the past eight years from the man you knew back in Chicago? And two do you have much creative visibility into Barack Obama the father, husband, and friend? Then most people do. And so because of that unique lens, what did you see that you wish the rest of America could see when they look and think about President Obama? Thank you. That's a great question. Two part question. I'll

try to remember both parts. I think the first lady said it best when she spoke at his two thousand um in twelve invention speech. She said being president hasn't changed to is it has revealed who he is? And having had the chance to, as I said earlier, be here since day one and see how he makes decisions and how he formulates his priorities. Um, I am so proud that his true north has never wavered. He's never forgotten why he was here. He's never forgotten that he's

in service of the American people. He's never allowed any short term political interests to get ahead of what's important for the country. The Affordable Care Act is a good example. There were many who said to him, just do smaller pieces of it. It's going to cost you politically, and he said, what's the point in being here if you're

not going to do big things that help people? And so, Um, has he grown and matured, has his hair grade most definitely uh and all to the best, But his his motivation and sense of what it means to be the President of the United Sates has not altered one bit. And for that I am so proud, so really, very very proud of him. I think the second question was what might we have done as a father, a father, husband? And unless you want to ask the answer, what might you have done? I don't know how I had that

in my head. What do I know? What do I see? Um? I see a good man. I see a good man who was loved as a child, but who had a real hole in his heart for the father who abandoned him. From the father who abandoned him, who fell in love with a strong, courageous, talented woman, and her parents became and her father in particular became mentors to him too. He often says that he looked at her dad to see how to be a dad. And he's someone who

on the busiest civil day, values family. When six fifteen comes, we are all getting nervous because we know, at six thirty he better be walking upstairs to have dinner with his family. For all the years where he was campaign or campaigning or working in Springfield, it pained him unbelievably to be away from them. And so that simple act of sitting around their table every night, even if it means he has to work for three or four more hours or five more hours after dinner, grounds him. And

they're not interested in his day. They want to tell him about their day. And so he's a really good dad, and he's a wonderful husband. And he can have the singularly hard burdens of being the president of the United States and the leader of the free world on his shoulders and still have both time and emotional energy for them. And I think for parents of the world who are feeling very busy and wondering how they can balance work and family, he's a good role model for that. You

make time. And I think that role model that we've seen from the White House of this couple who have raised these very normal, terrific, grounded children UH within this environment, speaks volumes to their UH, their character, their integrity, their sense of core values about what's important and UM, there's just been nothing more important to him than to be that good role model for his daughters and to comport himself every single day in a way that makes them proud.

That caller was from Charleston, and I know you have a meeting to go to, but I think for you and for many Americans, one of the most poignant moments Barack Obamas eight years was when he spoke at that service in Charleston. So that was quite a day. And I think that's probably correct me if I'm wrong. One of the most vivid images you'll take with you when

you leave the White House. It's interesting you bring it up, because today when I came in, I stopped at the mass and they play former speeches of the President sometimes on television, and it was playing when I got there, and I stopped and listened to it for about ten minutes through the part where he talked about the amazing grace of the people Reverend Pickney and and his um fellow parishioners who perished that day through the example of

their loves. They now pass it on us. May we find ourselves worthy of that precious and extraordinary give as long as our lives ending, May grace now leave them home. May God continue to shed his grace. I'm the United States of America. It was a hopeful story. It was an honest and ross story, but it was intended to show that we can do better, that ordinary citizens can do better, and that we should ask ourselves some really hard questions, and that we're in so doing doesn't diminish

our love for our country. Similar to the speech he gave Inselma on that point, it's how you prove your love for the country, to say, let me be willing to have some uncomfortable conversations and think, I'll think in an empathetic way outside of my own skin and appreciate a different perspective and a better perspective so that I

can learn and and do right. And I would add, as a PostScript to that incredible speech, it's also the same day that the Supreme Court ruled on marriage equality, which um, I had the pleasure of calling the President to tell him the news, uh, right before he was scheduled to leave for Charleston. And UM, I will never forget that, I said to him, Mr President. The Supreme Court ruled on marriage equality to day five four And there was a long pause, and he said, and who won?

And I was like, oh, my goodness, I did bury the lead. We won. And then we came back to the White House after the trip to Charleston, and a very two very junior staff peopleould come up with the idea of UM lighting the house in the rainbow. And I stood on the north portico for about two hours with many of my colleagues here in the White House, and just reflected as the colors became to began to pop out, Uh, how far our journey had come in

a relatively short period of time. Although, as the President said, it felt like a thunderboilt, but only because ordinary citizens had worked so hard to make that day, decades to make that day possible, And that really kind of sums up what this is all about. We carry our baton for the length of the journey that we have and then we handed off to the next one. And what you hope when you look back is is it you know good is better and that we did go. I think you're going to cry, am I in any second?

That's what we better wrap it up. I try a lot these days, and what are you gonna do when what's sleep? Get some sleep? I'm going to take a break. I'm going to take a break. Yeah, I think, Um, I think I could sleep like ten hours, but I'm going to push the limit and see how far I can go at one stretch. Uh, And you know, take a moment to kind of rejuvenate. I still feel and I've said this often, if he had won another term, I would be here for one more term, but we

don't have that in terms of stamina. I feel like I could do it, but I get some rest and then I'll figure out how to continue to be a force for good. That's my hope. Well, I'd like to say, on behalf of all of us, thank you for your service and for everything that you've done for the country, and thank you for talking with us, and it's it's been an honor, it really has. And I think that there's so much progress we've made and still a lot of hard work left to do, and we're all lucky

to be in a position to do good. So we should we have miles to go before we sleep. As Robert Frost that sleep and then miles to go isn't the way I'm gonna look at it. Thank you, thank you, the conversation, Thank you, Thanks to Gianna Palmer for producing the show and Jared O'Connell for engineering and mixing it. Of course, Mark Phillips, Mark, we love our theme music. I can't wait to get my own version of it so I can play it while I'm on vacation or

make it your ringtonement. Yeah, that would be great. That would be great. Maybe iTunes can help us arrange that since they picked us as one of their favorite podcasts of Oh thank you for reminding me, Brian. Remember you can also email us at comments at kirk podcast dot com, or find Katie on social media. She's at Katie Kirk on Twitter and Instagram and Katie dot Kirk on Snapchat. And you're on social media to Brian go On, give yourself a plus. Just trailing slightly behind Katie and followers.

I'm at Goldsmith b on Twitter. Best of all, you can rate and review us on iTunes. Don't forget to subscribe because that helps more people become aware of the show. And we will talk to you next time. Thanks for listening. Hello, I'm Chris Gethered, and here with me is dream analysis expert Gary Richardson, and we are here to give you a taste of a brand new podcast called In Your Dreams,

presented exclusively by the fine folks at Casper. We listened to the wildest, weirdest dreams admitted to us by you, our listeners, and we do our best to figure out just what those dreams could possibly mean. And look over the side of my phone, said, and there are Kuey Lewis and the news. You're saying this person might have interests in style and fashion specifically. You can tell that from that voicemail. Certainty plus will be joined by some

very special guests. The word mortality comes to mortality, blood Blood tell subscribe to In your Dreams right now on iTunes or wherever you get your podcast. Thanks for listening. Goodnight, dealing with a bit of a cold. That's why I sound kind of congested. Yeah, you have a sort of a throaty tone today, like Brenda Picaro. Yeah. For our older listeners, yeah exactly, it's just just a whisper of Susan Estridge. But we're