The Muslim Next Door

that could be a dead giveaway. Anyway, it's this very podcast that brought us to Austin. We take today's interview in front of a live audience at south By, which was really fun, and the taping was special for another reason to Katie, that's right, Brian, because it was aligned with my national geographic series called America Inside Out. Yeah, our guest today, we're both in the episode of your series called The Muslim next Door, which is out this week.

It's really all about the challenges and opportunities that American Muslims are facing right now. That's right, Brian. For our podcast, we spoke with two of the people who are featured in this episode was Jahat Ali, who was a new York Times contributing up ed writer and has written for a number of publications. A very very smart guy and Emmy nominated producer Mona Haydar, who is a Syrian American activist, rapper,

that's right, and scholar herself. And you should google Mona's music video which is called hijab Wrap My Hi Job. And I just read that in like the whitest way possible. Katie's very Katie's very addicted to it. Wrap my Job.

I love it. Actually, it's a really yes. And at a time when a proposed travel band has the support of more than half the population, when President Trump has pondered asking Muslim Americans to register with the federal government, and when hate crimes against Muslim people in this country are at an all time high, well, let's just say

we had a lot to talk about, that's right. I thought it was a very important and enlightening conversation, if I do say so myself, not because of me, but because of our guests, because of me, yes, because of you, Brian. But things got a teeny bit heated when Mona made

some statements specifically about Louis farakon. Yeah, you should pay close attention when I asked Mona and Watch about Louis Farakon, who is, of course the longtime leader of the Nation of Islam, who's been in the news recently for his anti Semitic remarks. We're running out of time. I wish i'd actually push Mona a little more for refusing to condemn Farrakon's hate speech after attacking others earlier in the

conversation for saying hateful stuff. It was very ironic, Brian, I agree, because I think you really can't have it both ways, and I think Wash expressed that sentiment quite well. But as always, we're curious what you think, so please call or right in with your feedback on this episode at nine two to four, four, six, three seven or comments at correct podcast dot com. And now to our conversation with Mona and Wash. Wash and I are like this. I now call him Wash instead of Wash. From the

Halls of south By Southwest to watch Mona. I was going to give each of you a glowing introduction, but I just decided why bother with that? Why don't you introduce yourselves and let some people in the audience who may not know you as well get to know you a little bit better. Oh, ladies first, I guess um, you know, smash the patriarchy and ladies first. But so, my name is Mona Haydar. I am a poet turned rapper, mom of two beautiful baby boys. I grew up in Flint, Michigan.

I live in New York currently. I am currently in my last semester hopefully of getting my masters in theology, um, specifically Christian social ethics. Ah. Yeah, I know, I'm a Muslim. Why am I doing that? But it's cool. That's that's good for now. Okay, wash, it makes me feel so inadequate, I don't wrap. Uh. First of all, thank you guys for coming this to the Muslim next door. I feel like this is depending on your politics, this is either the title of a horror movie or a romantic comedy.

And so like, if Mona is the guests is the romantic comedy, I'm the Muslim next door, which be terrified. Protect Katie Couric at all costs, America's sweetheart from the Muslim next door. Uh. I was born and raised in fremontis Than, California, the Bay Area, anyone, the Bay Area, anyone? Yes? Thank you? H to Pakistani Muslim immigrant parents who thought'd be hilarious to name me Wajahat, and you know it

was oftentimes. Growing up was like the token Muslim and token Pakistani, and I became like the Muslim friend of people right. And I went to an all boys Jesuit Catholic high school and every semester I got the highest grade in religious studies class. It was me colley On nilam rod to the Hindu and Navid Mustafavi the lapsed Persian, and father Alander used to read the grades in his heart,

used to like just the Jesuit heart cracked little. But but even though I just want to say this, even though I grew up in America with e s L, I couldn't speak English until I was five, I ended up graduating with an English major from UC Berkeley. And even though yes, yes, thank you. And even though I was healthy growing up, and healthy is a euphemism for big boned, and big bone is a euphemism for fat,

I was fat, uh, and I wore husky pants. I ended up marrying an extremely accomplished, extremely smart high school varsity cheerleaders. So hashtag it gets better uh. And now I'm sitting next to Katie current I'm a writer, I'm a tired dead of two and Pakistani immigrant uncles in my community. All the stuff I've done, They're like, none of it matters. You're talking to Katie. Court made it, so I made it. Everything else is downhill from now I've made it. I'm the door. Well, thank you guys

for those quick bios. We're out of time. Thanks very much for comming. I'm just kidding, kidding, so we know we have no I'm not We have a lot, a lot to get to and first to be Dickensie and about it. These are the best of times. These are the worst of times for for being h for Muslims in this country. What words would you both use to describe what it's like to be Muslim in America today? Or is that question in and of itself problematic? Is that like saying what is it like to be a

white Christian lady in America today? I think it's great depending on where you are, your social location, your economic location, you know, I think all of that plays into the question. But I think for a lot of Muslims in Middle America, Islamophobia is can be lethal, as we've seen uh in different parts of the country, and for some people, Islam is their break is the thing that sets them apart. Um like Hedima Aiden, who's doing amazing things on New

York Runway. And I feel like for me, being very visible Muslim has done good things for me. Um. And I was wildly pregnant in my first music video, so wildly mold pregnant, any months pregnant. So you know, I think we're very visible. We're a very visible population. Um. We can be not always, but yeah, I think it depends on where you are exhausting and exciting, exhausting. Because I grew up. I was twenty years old when nine

eleven happened. I was a senior at UC Brooklyn, and that's a pivotal shift for that generation, right, because there's always a PRENI eleven and post eleven and for the

past seventeen years. Uh, it seems that based on the rules that we choose in life, I end up being this walking Muslim Wikipedia entry and a cultural ambassador for one point seven billion people in sixteen hundred years of Islam, years of Islamic civilization, and any time some violent extremists who I've never met does something in a country I've

never visited. Our people's and our history is indicted, interrogated, investigated, questioned, and sentenced to buy a nameless judge during executioner that always holds our loyalty as suspect. And so you're always like a walking explainer on Islam and Kuran and Sharia and brock Kusan Obama who's not Muslim, but if he

was Muslim, I wouldn't make a difference. Uh, And you know, like Hamas and Hamas, like everything right and and like everything like you have to know everything, and God forbid, if you make a mistake, you are personally not indicted. The entire collection of something called Muslims is indicted or something called is Islam. And then they always ask you why does is Islam hate the West? And then when I go to Muslim countries, ask why does the West hate Islam? And I'm like, who is Islam and who's

the West? And how come I've never met either of them? And it's also exciting because I joke and you have to have some dark humor. It's like choose your own adventure, especially with Trump. Right, you might wake up and next day you'll be in the Muslim camps and you hope there's WiFi, or you might wake up and Mona's you know, rapping with her, you know, extremely pregnant, or just say wildly pregnant belly right, And so a crisis presents an opportunity.

You're seeing Americans say, wait a second, this islamophobia thing is real. Oh, Muslims have been here for four hundred years. Oh why don't you guys step up and be the protagonist of this narrative and we'll follow your lead. And that's exciting, and we're gonna cover President Trump in a little bit. But speaking of a walking explainer of Islam, you set up a booth mona sometimes with a sign that says, ask a Muslim, what are the sorts of questions you get and the answers you give? Can you

give us a few highlights? Yeah? Sure. I mean it's really fascinating when we when we go out on the streets and we do this, UM, people come to us. I think it's a social experiment of vulnerability. UM is what it really is. People really just want to connect. And so people would come with often authentic curiosity and vulnerability, and they would open their hearts and they would say, I feel really ignorant. I don't know, like do you wear that when you sleep? Or like did your dad

force you to wear that? Or are you actually like a free woman? You know? Do you need my help? Should I save you from that white guy who maybe it's your husband, maybe is like a lurking hipster? Like should do you need do you need help? Can I

liberate you? You know? Um? And so folks came with a lot of different things, but I feel like when people came with authentic curiosity and vulnerability, it always transcended that awkwardness and it always moved into the space of like, wow, like we're just two people kind of opening our hearts

to each other. And I found, to be honest that when I was really present with folks, when I was really open and listening and really present to them, um, we could really quickly transcend what they may be called their ignorance because it was really hearts meeting. And at

the end of the day, that's that's all. We really need to heal a lot of the wounds that I feel like this country and a lot of the world are dealing with, you know, and wash, what do you think are the some of the biggest misconceptions about Muslims, even among educated people, I mean the educated liberals and the lurking hipsters. I'll give you top five. Where are the moderate Muslims? And how come they haven't condemned terrorism? Is isis al Qaida, Bocoham or al Shabab representative of

traditional Islam some combination of those two. Number three, are you guys commanded to do violent jahad against the infidels? Number four? Are you trying to implement sharia across America? Number five? Why do you hate and oppress your women? And bonus the Jews? Why do you hate them? So those are the six misconceptions, and in those misconceptions are the assumptions that, apparently, when someone asked the question where

are the moderate Muslims? It's such a troubling question because the assumption is there's no such thing as a moderate Muslim, any practicing Muslim by virtue of being a because the Muslim is somehow radical, anti Western, anti American. You know, it's so funny. On the airplane on the way here today this morning, um, a very lovely woman was sitting next to me, and she asked me, why aren't more Muslim speaking out against these violent extremists, and I was like,

I'm doing everything I can. You know, like, it's not my problem and it's not my job to to address that question. It's not my job to like convince the whole world that I'm not violent, that I am a normal mom, potty training my child, like trying to finish my master's degree, you know, like it's not my job to educate the masses about me what what is My job is to be an authentic human being. But the burden also falls right because they've been doing the study

for the past seven years. Americans say they don't know Muslim and when you say, listen, man, I'm your Muslim friend, they go, oh yeah, oh yeah you, but not I was thinking thinking about And I'm like, you're not the right kind of Muslim. You're thinking about Osama or Saddam or Ayatola. So the image of Islam is something foreign. So that when a well intentioned person and I'm sure she was really nice and sweet and pleasant, yes, says that to Mona. In her mindset, the Muslim is not

her or me, the Muslim next door. It's uh An isis recruit. But you talk about when we sat down together, watch about sort of the expectation there's there be a condemned the thon on the part of so called moderate Muslims, and how unfair that is in terms of expecting a reaction, expecting you to go on television every time there's an event and speak out. Yeah, it's so for this, it's

like a double standard for people to really experience this. Uh. Muslim guy in New York October thirty one, Uzbek national takes a car, rams through a crowd, kills people. Apparently he yells a lahuag bar, and all of a sudden, the chiron and says man yells, allow hawkbar. Government investigating terrorism. Now everyone now allow hawkbar trands And everyone's like, where are the moderate Muslimism? Why aren't they condemning this? And where is your moderation? And there's a unique problem with

the Islam. It's a unique threat and we need special counsels to investigate. In Charlottesville, a young white dude, UH, some very fine people uh in the summer too soon, my bad uh takes a car and deliberately rams it through a crowd and act of terrorism, killing a woman. Katie and Brian, I do not think that you were asked, where are the moderate whites and how come they're not

condemning white terrorism, white people. You're not doing enough to counter white supremacists and rental, radical anti government activists, white people. Where are your leaders? Now? Imagine if that burden was placed on you, and I'm assuming you guys would be like, I don't know those very fine people in Charlotte. I'm Katie mother Efin Kuric, what why are you asking me to do this? Right? And now imagine us the same

thing happens. So it's the double standard that seeps into our media framing, which shapes our perceptions, which shapes the narratives, which shapes domestic and foreign policy, and it weaponizes Muslim for politicians to gain votes and get elected into office. Well, and to that point, it's it's interesting right wing extremist groups have been responsible for nearly white In fact, we should add white right wing white I think I said white wing. That was a Freudian slip. You said it,

not us, Yeah, you said it. I'm proud. I want to use the hashtag quote him not us. I'll favored it. I know our moderate whites don't worry. Some of our best friends are whites moderate whites? Yeah, we love the whites. Everyone loves the whites. Anyway, Right wing extremist groups have been responsible for nearly three times the number of violent incidents as Muslim extremists since nine eleven, And yet that's clearly not the perception. Why is that? Or Just State

University did an analysis exactly of that. When it comes to even though white supremacists and radical white what do you say white wing, white wing terrorists are response from the most domestic terror threats and attacks, There's four times as much media coverage when the suspect is wait for it, Muslim in newspapers. And I'll give you an example Stephen Paddock October was in October when from the Mandalay Bay fiftieth floor shot and killed more than almost fifty people

right Las Vegas. What was the media framing lone wolf mental health problems? A quiet man who would have thought, uh, Pola Pov does it? Uzbek national we need to end diversity lottery program And this goes back and I won't get into it, katiecause terrorists it's it's it becomes yeah, who's a terrorist? It becomes a meaningless term now, especially after nine eleven because Stephen Paddock does it lone wolf, the guy in shaw Olsville does it lone wolf, Muslim

does it or black man does it? Immediately the framing is what terrorist, which changes the law enforcement response, the media response, and the political response. And there's just some angry white guys, you know. But it's particular for Muslims even more than African Americans. Wouldn't you say, I don't

think the word terrorist is automatically used. Muslim and black are not mutually exclusive, right exactly, But still I think when it is a Muslim name, a Muslim sounding name, then I think they're very very quick to term it a terrorist act, right wash. We have to draw the parallels because it draws upon the history of terrorisming black men and women in this country, and black was synonymous

and oftentimes is with Chicago violence. That's another code word that Trump uses, right, savage, the enemy, the other it's all other rising language. And so that same type of otherizing language that was used against black people latinos m s thirt and remember that that's gonna be a sexy one going to uh Japanese Americans in World War two. Now, taggre it it's the Muslim and the tag that hits

Muslims in particular is terrorism. Whiteness or white supremacy in particular is given a pass, whereas Muslim or Blackness, i would say, is always examined and the entire people who represent Muslims or blackness are interrogated. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be back with our conversation from

south By Southwest with wasajahat Ali and Mona Haydar. I want to thank our listeners who called or wrote in with their reflections for this week's episode, and I'd like to share a couple of the messages we got to start. Let's listen to a voicemail. Hi. My name is Kathy, and I did not have a lot of familiarity with Muslims.

Um in high school, there were some and it was during the Iran contra trials and people were getting spit on and I would I would go to teachers because I would see that happening in the hallway and that was disturbing. Fast Foredom. And now a school teacher in California, and I have a number of Muslim students and they're just great families and kids, and I just feel badly, because, for instance, on Facebook, a friend will post something about all Muslims and I have to say, you know, that's

just not true. I work with these kids and these families, and they'll say, well, we're not talking about them, We're talking about the terrorists. And I think, you know, it's like when people say things about right wing Christians evangelicals, and I think, no, you know, you're making a mass statement for a very select group of people. Both are terrorists on either extremes. You know, someone I mean an abortion clinic versus someone doing a you know, a suicide

and killing people. If they're Muslim, they're they're terrorists. And I just think when you get to know people and you can build those bridges, it helps. And you know, I asked questions because I don't know, and and it's very wide umbrella and there Muslim just like with Christianity. Anyway, those are my thoughts and I'm still a learner and I'm now fifty four year years old. Um, but thank you for doing this series. I really appreciate it. Well,

thank you for calling Kathy. I think we're all lifetime learners. I feel that way, and we all have to continue to ask questions and seek the truth. And your high school memories of people spitting at Muslim students, obviously that's something that stayed with you that sounds horrible. And also the point you make that white extremists commit acts of domestic terrorists, um and actually they do so, according to studies,

three times more often than Muslim extremists. But when Muslim extremists commit a terrorist act here in this country, it gets, according to a study by Georgia State University, four and a half times the media coverage, or at least newspaper coverage. So I think the way uh these events are conveyed to us and conveyed to us as Americans in general, really shape our views and often feed into negative impressions of Muslim Americans that are simply completely unfair. Next, a

listener named Mary Gubrud wrote to us from Cedar Falls, Iowa. Mary, thank you for that. She told us that a little over a year ago, some women from her church she's a Lutheran, decided to get together with women from a local mosque, And this is what Mary wrote to us. We began simply, we shared food that was acceptable to both religions for a meal and then began to get to know each other as women, mothers, sisters, and daughters. Building on those common threads, we form friendships and then

began to learn and understand each other's faith. This group has grown in the past year to include women from a number of churches, the mosque as well as the local synagogue. We meet monthly, sometimes at a church, sometimes at the mosque, or sometimes at the synagogue. We share a vegetarian meal, potluck style. She said. We are Midwesterners, you know, and then have time where we learn from each other or explore common issues. Mary, your letter, your

email makes me want to cry. You add, my life is richer for the Muslim women I now call friends, and this has allowed me to tell others where their misconceptions of that faith are incorrect. I think, obviously, this is what it's all about, spending time with people who are different than we are, seeing them for what they are, mother's daughters, sisters, people who want the best for their family,

and learning from each there. And Mary, I think you're an object lesson in my whole goal for this series America Inside Out, to get to know each other, to get out of our comfort zone, and to learn from one another. So thank you so much for writing and uh, I'm very moved by what you said. Coming up, by the way, in my series Fernaccio, I'll be exploring white

working class anxiety now. Over the past several months, I've spent time in communities like Johnstown, Pennsylvania, Fremont, Nebraska, Erie, Pennsylvania, Storm Lake, Iowa. These are places that have lived through massive demographic, technological, and economic changes. So I'm hoping to hear from some of our listeners in rural areas or in the rust belt. What is life like where you live?

How has your community changed in recent decades. I'm thinking here about factories closing, the opioid epidemic, or the so called deaths of despair, and battles over immigration. Have these issues affected your community or even shaped your politics or your outlook? So give us a call to weigh in at nine to nine to four, four, six, three seven in a pupil of Muslims say Donald Trump makes me feel worried. According to the FBI, hate crimes reported toward

Muslims increased between two thousand, fifteen and sixteen. What role do you think President Trump has played in all this? Like, I don't I don't know. I'm not a political talking head, right, like I'm a rapper. Um So, even like I don't know, I feel like we expect a lot of Muslims, like the lady on the airplane really expected me to be able to comment on Afghanistan and what's happening in Ida

and Isis and all that stuff. But as somebody who experiences his comments, just curse for you and how that translates into two negative feelings for other people. I mean from your own personal perspective. Yeah, I can talk about the way Donald Trump hits me, and it's just kind of gut wrenching and destabilizing of of a feeling of safety and security. Um as a as a young girl growing up, I feel like I knew my family was different, right, And then when nine eleven happened, Um, it was this

really big shift. It was this moment, this like real in breath and like I could feel everybody holding their breath because it was like the facade is gone, the masks have been ripped off. And that was a real pivoting moment for a lot of Muslims in America to understand the intensity of xenophobia of the rhetoric of someone like Trump, of those really deeply seated beliefs that exist which stem I mean, this is why I'm doing my masters in Christian ethics UM, because they stem from a

theological place white supremacy. You know, if you read the Founding Fathers, UM, a lot of it stems from what's called Saxonism. It stems from this really theological space of like, we are superior, we are better, and thus we must protect We must um, you know, enclose, we must guard UM because otherwise it will be dirtied, it will be sullied,

it would it will be muddled UM. And for me, somebody who really believes in the beauty of all people, of all ways, of all paths, of all wisdom UM, I think it's it's it's traumatic to see how UM really ideology can be weaponized. I want to kind of live in my artistic Laala land and believe that the world is so beautiful and like that we're just we're

on our way to this more beautiful world. And it kind of just breaks my heart, you know, to see somebody who is intent and hell bent on dividing UM instead of uniting, which I feel like it's so fulfilling and joyful, you know, like I want that joy for everyone. You know. Watch, what role do you think the president has played in all of this and the rise of hate crimes and furthering Muslims liberal media? Come on now,

I'm just kidding. Uh. President Trump has essentially weaponized what was already there for several decades, this deep fear and mistrust of not just Muslims, but people of color in general. If you look at all the stats and surveys that have come out now a year and a hal after the election, and people of color journalists like myself who followed the campaign trail would tell you this. It was primarily racial anxiety that motivated a lot of Trump space.

If you look at the thirty second ad that Donald Trump dropped for his campaign, it only focused on two issues, a lot of Mexicans crossing the border and the Muslim man. But there weren't really Mexicans. It was a shot of Moroccans. But hey, who cares? Nuances um and the use of fear, hate, and anger, especially against a minority. This mozele tough cocktail and throwing it and saying thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, Yeah, thank you, Uh, that's nothing new. It's

been using politics throughout both in America and abroad. And well, and we should say that isn't a purely partisan common because President Bush after nine eleven made a large point a real effort not to stigmatize Islam is not the problem. Muslims are part of our fabric. He made two speeches.

And the sad irony is sixteen years later, if George W. Bush was to run as a Republican presidential nominee, he would not get the ticket because he'd be seen as a Muslim lover right, And so President Trump what he did was these existing me is that we're on the fringe. Just seven years ago, he realized, Hey, it seems my base loves it. I'm getting more votes, They're coming to my rallies. Let's go after the Mexicans. He descended the Golden Staircase, and he said, we gotta stop and protect

ourselves from Mexican rapists and criminals. And then he said, ah, the Muslim thing, I'm getting more mileage out of it. Let's do it. And now it's mainstreamed to the point where when I was growing up, the worst thing I was called was Gandhi, which is a compliment. I mean I used to tell like the bullies, I'm like, thank you for comparing me to a world leader who, along with millions of others, through off three d years of imperialism. And they're like, oh, you're fat. Uh you know, but

I'm like, I'm gonna get you in the end. But now, just to show you how it's personalized, there are parents who are scared and you know we have I have two cute babies. You've got two cute babies. This conversation is now mainstream and Muslim American circles people born and raised in America. I should give my kid a safe name. If I give him a MUSLIMI name, that will make him into our target. So maybe I should call him Ryan because white people will call him Ryan, or maybe Layla.

White people like Layla. And this conversation now I heard like two years ago, and I'm like, wait a second, guys, We're self policing our kids names in the age of Trump to protect them even though they have done nothing wrong, and they're only marker of being a suspect will be their skin color and their Muslim identity. We always want to protect our kids. But the fact that most of the Americans have to think about this now in the age of Trump, just to bring it home, that's what's

changed the landscape. You don't belong, you're not welcomed. Why because you will replace us, which is what they said in Charlts. And you know, of course, President Trump made a big deal about semantics and differed from President Obama in terms of wanting to call out radical Islamic terror, radical Islamic terrorism and um and and that is another way that Donald Trump has tried to bash Muslims in this country and put everyone in some big category. And

why is that term so damaging in your view? And and and what kind of impact does that have around the world. Because of course the big argument is you cannot indict an entire faith, according to President Obama. But President Trump says it's fine. I mean, I don't know what to say. He's an asshole. Sorry, like I don't know, sorry for your podcast that you might have to believe that. I mean to play Devil's advocate for one second. His argument is you can't fix the problem until you identify it.

And President Obama didn't have the courage and the straightforwardness to sort of call it what it is. And of course President Obama's argument is you are painting with a broad brush, and you're saying that. All President Bushes and President Bush's argument the same way. They would not use that phrase for a very particular reason. Um. But but what do you say to the Trump argument that you know,

in order to fix this you first have to identify it. Well, I think it's fascinating because when it comes to violence, you know, violence against communities of color in this country, it's okay. You know, it's okay to like I was at Standing Rock, it's okay to use water cannons on Native people, Indigenous people. Um, it's okay to use tear gas. Yeah, that like, that's okay. It's okay to send drones to Pakistan. It's okay to you know, perform these kinds of violence.

But um, when wounded people who come from colonized contacts with literally nothing to live for, which is why they are they're behaving in these violent ways. They have these deep wounds that need healing. No, we can't see them as people. But for us to perform this violence, like we're we're democratizing the world, we are doing it under the guys of globalization, like it's fine for us, like you know when when the money backs, it's like we

there was just an arms deal with Saudi Arabia. What was it, like three billion dollars, Like that's okay for Saudi East to kill Yemeni's and to massacre them, like because there's money, they're right, So that's okay, But like some kinds of violence, you know, or not okay. And so again it comes back to the idea of the double standard, which I think it's like that Sweatshop Boys song if you're black or black, brown or black, Babylon has come for your head. You know, that's real double standard.

Also when it comes to language, and we've been talking about language, but language, much like ideology, much like identity, much like history, also gets hijacked by extremists. Sebastian Gorka, good Ald Sebastian Gorka, who was in the White House until he wasn't a week before Charlottesville, said we we don't need to focus on white supremacy as a problem, right, and so language when it comes to the framing, Obama said, and same with the Bush. We all know what the

problem is. We know it's ISIS. We know it's al Qaida, but there's similarities and they're violent extremists, so that was the term that was used. Or you can go ahead and say violent Muslim extremists, violent Christian extremists. By deliberately framing it as radical Islamic terrorism without any nuance, this type of framing is a ineffective, it doesn't work, and

b it's counterproductive. It makes us less safe and actually gives ammunition to ISIS and al Qaida because the number one recruitment of ISIS and al Kaada is the following the West hates Islam. The West as at war with the Islam. And that's why I was on BBC News Hour when Trump became a candidate. I said, and this has actually proven that ISIS was actively rooting for Trump because he literally gives them their calling card to say, look, they hate you. He wants to do a Muslim man.

In addition to the Iraq War and Afghanistan, he says Islam hates you. He's open to a registry. See oh, those recruits, those angry, dislocated individuals seeking purpose join us. So it's counterproductive, ineffective, it doesn't help anyone and I was at a Trump rally two weeks before the election in Maine. That's what I knew Who's gonna win. I was the only person of color, only journalist. Awesome and Rudy Giuliani came out and they didn't even like say sentences.

He literally just said the wall, and then he said the wall and the bigger thing, and then he said radical Islamic terrorism, and then he repeated it and like it wasn't even sentences or complete thoughts or policies or just the words, and it framed the entire enemy as the wall is what protect against the Mexicans and immigrants and the muslim men, and radical Islamic terrorism is what all Muslims. But intolerance isn't only on the right. And

I'm not drawing a moral it's a human condition. Equivalence, yes, Because you know, Louis Farrakhan is back in the news. He's the long time left wing Nation of Islam leader with a history of virulent anti Semitic comments, and he's been embraced by some liberal members of Congress who won't repudiate him and and or an is er of the Women's March. How should moderate Muslims moderate white, it's moderate. Anybody's deal with Ferricon at this moment. I agree with

you that bigotry outright. You should have a consistent standard, not double standards. So if you're deeply and morally offended by anti Semitism, you should be deeply and morally offended by anti black racism. Should be deeply and morally offended by Slamophobia across the board. And I mean that across the board, because if you're not, then you're a hypocrite and you should be called out for the hypocrite that you are when it comes to the anti Semitism of

Lewis Ferricon. First and foremost, I only represent myself, not one point seven billion people. I only represent the six moderate Muslims on Earth. Apparently. Uh, it's wrong. It should be condemned, period. It's wrong. Period. But number two to your question, why do people associate with the n O I Nation of Islam and Louis Ferricon. You have to know the history of America right and when it comes

to black not just black Muslims, but black Americans. The n o Y for decades taught respect, uh, talked entrepreneurship within the black community, talked about protecting ourselves because the local, state and federal government abandoned Black communities. And when it came to Tamika Malory, one of the leaders of the Women's March, she lost her father at a young age, and she says openly, if it wasn't for the n

Y community, I would be lost. They really helped me and so many other Black individuals because they were self reliant. They taught us to lift our head up, they taught to invest back in the community and so forth. So that's why these ties are so deep in the Black communities in America. And number three is double standards, double standards,

double standards. Look, if we want all Muslims and black people to condemn the anti semitism Lewis farkon, fine, But then I want my moderate Whites and moderate Christians to stand up condemned the hateful comments of Jerry Foldwill JR. Franklin Graham, Donald Trump, and a lot of the other religious leaders who have said horribly time Muslim, anti Semitic, anti Black, and anti woman. That's just me as a

modern Muslim. Yeah, I honestly would never say anything about someone who has dedicated his life to uplifting the black community until say anything, you wouldn't condemn his amit until black people receive reparations in this country. I really and honestly and truly believe that Um somebody who is doing his best to uplift his people, Like I have no place nitpicking and criticizing him and what he's doing. I

don't agree with his positions. I don't agree with some of the things that he says, but he is trying to uplift his people, people who have been forgotten, abused, enslaved, and so I'm not It's not my job to condemn him. It's not my job to go out of my way to to speak on a topic where I'm not um a scholar, Right, all I am is a Muslim, and where I see injustice, I'm going to call it out and literally until black people receive reparations. It's not my place.

Do you Rewelsh, Do you think that's not your job? I will, I will push back on that that Mona has her point, But like I think you can do both at the same time. You can say, Okay, this individual has uplifted the community, and there's a unique narrative with this community in America that you have to understand why they're black leaders who can't just say I'm going to completely condemn, then know why because they have done

a lot of good. And at the same time, you can say, I condemn the hateful comments that Lewis Farrikon makes. It's just not anti Semitic comments, but also racist comments, also homophobic comments. I'm perfectly fine saying that's wrong. And I'm not a spokesperson for a Slummer, Muslims, or or even for myself. Like I don't need to have an opinion on Louis Farrikon and what he's doing. I'm not a part of I'm not a member of that community, you know what I'm mean. I don't have any ties

to him and what he's doing, what he's saying. I am not an anti Semi. My husband is half Jewish um. We go to the Rubenstein Thanksgiving every year like that's my that's those are my loves. People who practice Judaism like so for me, it's not it's not that I'm choosing one or the other. It's just not my job to condemn him until black people receive reparations, it's not my job. But I think as as an American if if I don't have a place in the evangelical community, right,

I'm not an evangelical. But if I hear that type of hateful language coming from an evangelical leader, and as a Muslim, if I hear it from a Muslim leader, if I hear from a Jewish American leader and it's hateful, I believe there is uh a shared value of morality, I think, or a shared equal standard here in America that we should be able to say, I condemn that bigotry, and I hope you stand up and condemned my bigree that's against my people, that's my There is an interesting like,

even with the clasps, even with the clapping in this room, there's an interesting like white adjacent cy um. I'm not a critical race theorist, so don't take everything I say um too seriously, but you know, it's okay, like with my pale skin to say something like this, but reparations

don't get a clap, do you know what I mean? Like? No, honestly, And that's a real problem, you know, until we really face some of the historical trauma in this country, I feel like we have no place criticizing a man who is doing his utmost to uplift his community, even if he is possibly a little senile, like I don't know, I don't know him, do you know what I mean?

So it's not my place. Let's go. Let's go from the political to the personal, because I know you all wanted to part of I think not only getting to know someone who's Muslim, but also getting to understand their lives and and and getting to know them on a personal level is so critical. And you know, one of the things that we've talked about is you you have you're in an interfaith marriage. Your husband converted, So tell us what that was like and how you were accepted

by his family and how your family accepted him. Lona, So his my husband's name, Sebastian. Um. He's a beautiful, tall, blue eyed white man, martial. Yeah, I hit the jackpot according to all Syrians, right, Um. But you know, he practiced Judaism for for a little while to kind of see if he could honor his grandparents and live that life in a spiritual way and didn't ultimately connect to it, and then practice Buddhism for a while. And we actually met at a commune where we both lived in Intentional

Community Center. And I never first saw myself with a white man. I you know, like I know I have this pale skin, and but really and truly I didn't believe that like a white man could understand me. And like my very Arab family and like we're loud and we laugh very loudly, and we eat like Arab food, and yeah, it was just this this really interesting thing when you know, he's like, I grew up with a lot of Muslims, my best friend is a Muslim, and now you're showing up in my life, and I don't

know what to do with that. And then we we we you know, had this intensive with a really beautiful Sufi and he was like, I feel my heart being called to this thing. I just want you to know that I think I'm going to become Muslim, Like, don't get scared, you know. And because he knew, like I knew that if he became Muslim, that I would really just like fall in love with him. And when that happened, um, you know, it was it was over for me. Anyways.

And you know, his mother is Episcopalian, his father is an atheist Jew, And how do they feel about you. I think it's a big old love fest, to be honest. You know, food got better. There's did That's what I'm saying. Yeah, Yeah, I feel like it's a lot of love and and just like what I hope for the future of my children, like to witness people who don't necessarily share the same practices to come together in familial bonds and ties and to say like we love each other and we're doing

this for love through love, you know. And my family loved him right away. My dad was like a plus personality and yeah, and it was over, you know. You know, Um, I wanted to show the clip if you singing wrap My Job, which I walk around my apartment singing wrap my hit job. It's quite an earworm for me. So let's roll that all around the world. Love every mid ning. So even if you feel lucky jabra lucky jab lucky jab rap jab jacks Wagon, big swag and Russian jeg.

I think a lot of people are confused about jobs and they don't understand sort the whole tradition of covering. So can you tell us quickly, Mona, why you cover and why this is important to other Muslim women as well and to some it's not. Yeah, I think for every Muslim woman you ask, you would get a different answer. A lot of Muslim women say that they dressed this way because it's modest and they believe in modesty. For me, I honestly would liken it to like taking on a

practice of meditation, for instance. For me, it's a spiritual practice, a recognition every day that I am not just a physical body, that I am an intellect, a heart, a spirit um, that I have all of these entry points to my being um, and that I, like India Ari says, I am not my hair, you know, and so to truly embody that and to invite people to know me

as more than just my body. First. So we live in a consumerist world, you know, the world where things are bought and sold, including bodies, and for me it's really um an act of resistance in a lot of ways to that world. And to say that my body um is not up for consumption, that I choose when and where I do what I want with my body right that for me, For me, hey, jab is a

is a tool of liberation. And I know that's not necessarily true for for women all over the world, but I truly believe that in its purest iteration and intention, that's what it is. It's an act of liberation from the oppression um, the oppressive belief that we are just these bodies. Which is so interesting because certainly counterintuitive for a lot of people when they see certain majority Muslim countries forcing women to do this, But for you, it's

actually the opposite. It is a sign of liberation versus oppression, which is very different in other countries. Yeah, and I think it's really interesting the way religion is weaponized all over the world, you know, and used to oppress and control instead of you know, I'm a student of religion, and so I have come to believe that these wisdom traditions contain liberation. You know, that they are liberatory in

their most in the most beautiful sense of liberation. You know what, what do you think is the one thing you would like this audience and our podcast listeners to walk away with and to know as a result of this conversation, the most important thing that they should keep in mind when they're looking at listening Americans and they're getting this information from the media, from the President, from various sources, from packs, from uh, you know, right wing extremists,

what what how do you counter that? And what would you say to people? If you aren't writing your story, your story is always being written for you by others. And if you aren't telling your story, a story is always being told to you by others. And for many Muslims, our story has been told to us by others, and we've emerged as the sidekicks or the footnotes or the

antagonists of the American narrative. And instead of looking at us as being either exceptional or terrifying, if you can look at us as your neighbor, your friend, your partner, the person who drives your uber, the person who probably fixed your heart, the person who makes a mean sharma. Look at us as co protagonists of the American narrative. And yes, there are some dark days here, but like

I said before, a crisis presents an opportunity. And what we're witnessing right now, and this is very exciting for me because I was born in this country is a multicultural coalition of the willing rising. And I see other people carrying other people's waters, and so let me carry your water, you carry my water, and let's eat some tasty food together and make America delicious. That's my take. It's better for all of our kids. I mean that sincerely.

And on that same note, I think it's I would hope that people walked away really understanding that homophobia, transphobia, fat phobia, xenophobia, um so, homophobia, racism, sexism, they're all the same disease. They're intent on dividing, their intent on seeing um some as less or not valuable or not worthy of love. And my hope is that people will understand that we can transcend that and that love is so much more fun, you know, um, love is so

much sweeter. Thank you so much, as always to the team that makes it happen every week, our producer Gianna Palmer, our audio engineer Jared O'Connell, and our assistant producer Nora Richie. Thanks also to our social media wiz Alison Bresnik at Emily Beana and bethams over at Katie Curric Media. Katie and I are the show's executive producers, and Mark Phillips

wrote our theme music. You can find me on social media under Katie Curic and Brian tweets from the handle goldsmith b and he tweets up a storm so you all should follow him be spun to follow anyway. We'll talk to you next week. Thanks as always for listening. Bye,