Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric and this is next question. Talk about a superstar lineup. Natalie Portman, Julianne Moore, Charles Melton, Todd Haynes. They're the talent behind May December, the gripping psychological thriller directed by Haines and written by first time screenwriter Sammy Birch. It's getting a lot of attention and it's been nominated for three Golden Globes. The movie is partially based on the shocking story of Mary Kay Latourno.
If you're not old enough to remember, she was the school teacher from a suburb of Seattle who went to prison in the nineties after beginning a relationship with one of her students. At the time, she was thirty four
and he was twelve. May December imagines a similar couple, Gracie and Joe, played by Julianne Moore and Charles Melton, and years after their relationship began, what would their life be like now, how did their story unfold, and what would happen if an actress Natalie Portman showed up to research her role portraying Gracie in an upcoming movie. That's how May December begins. It's a strange, twisty tale of love, lust and a not exactly age appropriate relationship given the
Todd Haynes treatment. I interviewed the group following a screening and it was a fascinating conversation. I hope you enjoyed listening.
To it, Natalie.
I know that your production company originally found the script for this film and brought it to Todd. Why did you believe he would be the right person to tell this story?
I kind of think Todd could tell any story beautifully. And such an admirer of his, I've wanted to work with him my entire career, and I've tried to times before unsuccessfully, and had sent him things in the past.
And when I read Sammy's script, I was so blown away by how she was able to do so much with such kind of sparse language, like it almost it revealed itself every day when we were shooting it, their new subtext would just kind of come out through the silences and what was between all of the lines, which is so rare. And Todd is such a master of
female complexity and also performance related to identity. I mean, it was such a great luck that he took to it and Todd when you first read Sammy script, and Sammy, I'll get to you in a second because I can't wait to find out your story.
What did you think about it?
I thought it was brilliant and devious, and that it put the reins into the It trusted the reader. You know, it's so rare and and someone so young and so you know, to have that confidence to really let the reader navigate against themselves and the and the knowledges that we bring in the you know, the fluency that we bring to watching movies and all the expectations we have for who to trust and who not to trust. And
so it very quickly became inspiring to me. And as to how to turn it into a film, I will just add the idea of being able to cast dorg Unaley finally in something so complex and so witty, and then to have the second role sitting right there.
This is your fifth collaboration, isn't it. Yeah, we'll talk about that in a moment. But Sammy, this is Sammy. This is your first come on woman, this is your first screenplay. You've got to tell I mean, tell me about yourself. I know that the story of Mary Kay letourno was the seed of this? How did this whole story come to you? Just tell us a little bit about why it struck you and why you wanted to kind of dig into this topic.
Yeah, I mean, I think we're in such an interesting time right now with you know, re looking at all these nineties tabloid culture, you know, these stories and kind of picking them up again and a lot of times retelling them the same way, I guess, and I think, or in.
Some cases through a different lens.
I absolutely right, absolutely sometimes looking at them through the lens of now and how people were treated unfairly. But I think the seed really was this idea of thinking about that couple. I knew that they had kids, and at a certain point I thought, oh, they're probably adults, these kids, And this image of an empty house kind of came to me of just you know, being an empty nester at thirty six years old or you know, mid thirty, which is really young enough to start over.
And so that was kind of the jumping off point of wanting to look at a couple like that with twenty years different, so there's just more air and more room and breath.
Reworry when people were watching this film they would remember that actual story, or that they would be able to make a leap that this was, as Julianne told me recently inspired by it. But it wasn't that story, you.
Know, as Sammy was sort of saying, I think I took it and I sort of accepted and as the sort of cultural raw material that we all share, right, but that it was something that could be interpreted as a fiction anew And the brilliant structure of the script is that it's set all these years later, so it's really about the excavation into the past and breaking through those barriers that have been erected to protect this family from that event in the role of this curious actress
who we think we trust.
And then things start.
To get crazy.
We're going to talk about the characters in a moment, but I did want to ask Julianne about your working relationship with Todd, as I said, this is the fifth collaboration, so talk to us about why this works so well?
Oh man, I don't mean I'm so lucky. I don't know, I have no idea. I accept that. I mean I think that that we have a shared sensibility, you know, and from the very beginning when I auditioned for Safe. I remember I had a very clear idea of how I thought it should be performed, and I was desperate to get the job, really just desperate. But there was only one way I could see doing it. And I thought to myself, if he doesn't like it, then I'm
just not the person for the job. And he did, and that was what And I think we've had that in all of our collaborations, where I feel like I'm able to understand and he's also able to very very clearly communicate what he wants, you know, to me through his direction in his storytelling. You know, Todd gives you tremendous scaffolding and context for absolutely everything you're doing, and so it's like.
He does all the work for you. So I feel like I'm just the recipient.
Okay, you're shaking your head, Can you go and say no?
I mean, I had this extraordinary fortune of meeting a creative counterpart so early on in my career. You know, it was my second feature, and Juliet had a career on television and then was moving into film. But I
didn't know your work. I saw shortcuts it was about to come out and people were like talking about this actor, Julianne Moore, and I didn't realize how challenging that character was until you embodied it, Like how almost impossible it was to play until she understood the other side of the mirror, right, And that's been what I've been experiencing you ever since. And I've said this, you know, I talk a lot about julian Natalie and Charles and these actors, but I learned something from Julie.
Every time we return to.
A project, there's things that happen in the room that I can'tnot see until I watch it on film. So there's this understanding of the medium that is just extrasensory deep.
Up next, Julianna and Natalie give us a sneak peek into their process. How did they go about portraying these fascinating and unusual women. That's right after this. If you want to get smarter every morning with a breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter, Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. And we're back with the cast of May December. I have to ask
you Julianne about Gracie because she's such an enigma. I mean, all of these characters are so damn weird to me.
But tell me.
I mean, I'm just gonna say it. How would you describe Gracey?
Well, I mean, it's funny that you said that too, because of course, you know, back to Sammy's script, it was deceptively simple, you know, I mean it was really really clean. And I read this and I'm like, oh, I got it, I got it. I got this, no problem. And then I started working on it and I called Todd and I was like, oh, I don't think I could do this. This is really hard. She's really complicated.
And I think that what Sammy has done so beautifully in the script is that, you know, everyone is so desperate to express their narrative, to tell their story, and no one more so than Gracey.
And Gracie's narrative is so complicated. And there was.
Something in the script where I kept stumbling as I was working on it. She was so well, Gracie was very kind of commanding in her house, and I was like, I don't get it. She doesn't seem like a mother to me. She doesn't seem like she's in control. And then I started thinking it's because I was like, oh, oh, it's like, she's not the she's not the mom, she's
not the queen. She's a princess. She's a princess who was rescued by her prince, and her prince was thirteen years old, and in order to make that work, she has to elevate him to being an adult, and she remains a child. She's forever that princess. So she's not the mom. She's a little girl with apron on a wooden spoon in her hand, you know, saying, and she's going to keep that's her that's her story. She's sticking
to it. And the distance between that narrative and the huge transgression that occurred is vast, and there's so much tension in between, and that's where all that emotional volatility happens, so that when she's alone, you know, she just falls apart. So I was like, oh, whoa, Sammy, whoa.
And it's it. They're all trying to convince themselves they're happy. And I'm curious about Natalie your role. You describe Elizabeth as so slippery. What do you mean by that exactly? And how would you describe her because she's so complicated too.
Yes, well, I think she's slippery all as Gracie is as well, because there's at different points, and that's part of the brilliance of Sammy script. There's different points where you're with each of them and then they lose you. You know, you're with them and you kind of believe their version of the truth, like Julie was saying, and then you.
Realize that they've been manipulating you.
And I was just struck so much by the levels of artifice and performance and the embrace of that, and Todd's brilliance of using all of these mirror scenes and using the camera as the mirror so that even when
they're looking at themselves, it's performance. That it's like always performance and you're just trying to ravel and find like, someone tell me the truth, And of course then Charles brilliantly is like true and honest, and you're so relieved because no one else is telling you anything to get deal, and so it's just, yeah, a beautiful construction that Sammy made for us.
Even though that's a perfect segue to Charles, I have to ask you and Julianne about the nature of your relationship. When you all are that makeup scene speaking of mirrors, I expected you to start making out for some reason, and like I.
Kind of heard sexual at tension.
What did Natalie saying?
I wanted to?
I mean, how would you describe the dynamic between these two women. It's so it's such an interesting dance, isn't it.
Yeah, I think they're in a struggle for dominance. You know, it's like who's going to tell this story? And I think the interesting thing for me as as Gracie is that her need, her desperation to tell that story and to have Elizabeth believe that story is so strong that she's going to do about everything she can to make her believe that, and including seducing her in a way.
You know, seduction is another form of power, right, But what Natalie did so brilliantly as an actor and as a character as a colleague is that she managed to you know, it's like, you know, Gracie can experience as Elizabeth mimicking her. She sees her copy her gestures and movement and her dress, and.
She approves of it.
It feels good because she's like she's seeing me, like I want to be seen right, So.
I feel a character that way.
But then when I watched the movie and I see Natalie doing all this kind of crazy, like really commenting on you know, managing to imitate me and then comment on it when Gracie doesn't see, I was like, it killed me.
It's so good, It's absolutely beautiful.
So anyway, she was a tremendous partner, a great colleague, and we had the best time together.
It was so fun to watch you too at work and just get lost in the roles, but also at the same time admire your incredible artistry and portraying these crazy ass women.
Thank you. I just had to say that Julie's like my.
All time like favorite actress, and I just was so dying to work with her and to get to do this together and realize how kind she was, generous and fun with all of it made it so possible to do all this nasty stuff to each other because it was like so safe when we were off camera, you know, was very clearly just playing together.
I understand it was shot in twenty three days. How much rehearsing did you all do?
So we had twenty three days to film and how many days to rehearse, zero days to rehearse. But leading up to filming in Savannah, Georgia, Todd would put together these dinners and we would just hang out with each other and get to know each other on a human level. And there was just this complete trust in Todd and the set that he built, in the atmosphere that he built,
and we were all in this together. And I was so lucky to be with Natalie and Julie and just have the best scene partners, the masters of their craft, being led by Todd. So it was very every minute, every second mattered and counted when we were filming, and there's just some everyone brought their best and was elevated by.
When we come back up and coming star Charles Melton on getting inside of Joe's head, and screenwriter Sammy Birch on watching her script come to life and we're back with the cast of May December. Well, you know you're getting a lot of attention Charles for your role, and I know that you just received the Gotham Award for Best Supporting Actor last night, so congratulations. Joe really is
a fascinating, again complicated character. He's more honest perhaps Natalie, but he's still sort of simmering and you can't quite read what he's thinking, although towards the end I think he's like, holy shit, what have I gotten myself into? Right when he's watching the graduation. But tell us a little bit about how you approached this role. Did you read about Mary kay Laturno? I mean, how did you think about it?
Yeah?
There was there's so much source material to look at, but it really just started with Samy's script. I mean there was just so much in between the text, and I kind of saw this vast arena to explore with Joe and the sensibility of him having so much responsibility
at thirteen, being a father. That mixed in with just public perception and you know, being a loving husband, and you know, I kind of looked at certain things in my life personally that I could apply or find a parallel to that wasn't so much the same experience, but the filling was similar. You know, my dad was in the army. I was an Army brat, and when I was eleven years old, he sat me down the night before he left to go to the Gulf War. I'm sorry,
Desert storm. He did go to the golf wur but desert storm, and you know, it was like, you know, to step up and take care of my two younger sisters.
You're the man of the house.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And like as a kid, you want to step up to the plate, you know, when your hero's telling you this, you want to do whatever you can. And in a way I could find draw that parallel with Joe for his kids and stepping up to the plate, and for Gracie too, So that was a little bit of what I looked at.
Yeah, I know, you put on thirty pounds for the role, and I know, Todd, when you first consider Charles, who were like, there's no way. Why did you not think he was right for the role?
Initially because he was so unimaginably handsome. I was like, there are no real people like that in walking, you know, through Tybee Island, Georgia.
Why did you put on thirty pounds? Did you feel like you had to have a dad bought or something.
I just wanted to enjoy life. No, But Todd and I we had a few conversations of what Joe not so much looked like, but what he would feel like, and it was kind of just you know, the uh, the green lights to just really go in and have five guys every night, pizza, ice cream, ranch, just.
Out of a cup.
I was eating it all.
It was great.
He was sort of sadly stunted, wasn't he sure?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's like a.
Larval state, this man speaking of monarch butterflies. Yeah.
And the thing about what Charles you know, did is that I saw his picture, but then I saw his tapes, his self tape with Laura rose On, my casting director, and we were like, wait a minute, this is we saw some great actress for the role of Joe, But no, buddy, did this. Nobody approached it with such a minute sense of present tense where it was somebody pre verbal. It was somebody who hadn't yet learned how to see themselves
and see what was going on. And that's what this film needed, because these were two women who were so adept at telling stories to get them through their lives.
And also couldn't see themselves as a result.
But you know, but that was their practice, that was their career, that was their profession. And then the third act opens up a space for Joe to begin to exist and take those tiny steps forward.
Sammy, can you tell us a little bit about yourself. I mean, how weird is it sitting on this stage with all these people, and what has this experience been like? Just tell us about you. That was a very that was a very Barbara Walters question. Go ahead, Well, it's been very surreal obvious.
I mean, obviously this is very surreal, and and even more so because the very first conversation with with Jessica Albaum, the first producer attached with her and Will Ferrell, it was the day before the pandemic shut down. So then everything that followed was very kind of like I was in my apartment still, but then it was like, oh, Todd Haynes is interested, We're going to zoom with him and Natalie Portman. I was like, okay, you know, like
there's like a sort of unreality to it. But but from the beginning too, it's.
Just been.
So amazing with these people who are you know, artists. I've have meant the world to me their work, and then to find out they're also so kind and funny and generous, and and to get to watch up close, you know, the process of Todd.
Making a movie.
I mean, it's it's really it's quite amazing congratulations. It's an incredible story and I'm so thrilled for you. But sort of as a closing thought, you know, I think when I watched this movie, I was left with so many more questions than answers. You know, was Gracie sexually assaulted? You know? Is Elizabeth just this horrific narcissist who wants to wreak havoc wherever she goes and destroy people's lives?
You know?
Was She's a question? Yeah? Was Charles? You know? Was was Joe? Sorry, Charles?
You know, just as I said, sort of tragically stunted?
Was he happy? Or did he?
Does he not even understand what happiness is? And I guess the question is anybody can take this who wants to? But was that the goal in a way to leave things leave you questioning? Because I kept thinking about these characters after I saw the film and really wondering about them and what made them tick? And is that sort of the goal todd of a film like this to leave things so enigmatic and unclear in a way?
You know, this script in this project reminded me of the way films that I saw when I was young that triggered questions There were maybe a little beyond my grasp when I was the age I saw them, but that made you want to revisit them and made you want to see them again and think about them and talk about them with your friends.
And that's what movies are to me. You know, movies are about asking questions that aren't easy to answer. They stay in your head that keep you.
Going back and wondering and re examining them. And I think that's true for classic Hollywood, the great classic Hollywood films, for European art cinema, for independent film.
Those are the films that, you know, keep me inspired.
So this film, this project, and working with these guys and my whole crew, was an.
Example of that.
I have one other quick question, which is the music, which is so almost another character in the film, and I saw that it was Michelle Legrand, who died in twenty nineteen, and then I read that this was actually the score of a movie that was made in nineteen seventy one. Can you just explain that and how you repurposed it or how that worked.
This is Marcelo's Arvis's, my composer's adaptation based on the score from the Go Between nineteen seventy one Joseph Lozi Film and Julie Christine Alan Bates and I saw the film when I was I think when it came out when I was young. But I saw it again on TCM last year while I was doing my image book and putting together references for this movie, and the score just knocked my socks off and put me on the lyric and made me question the film that would unfold.
And I thought, that is along with the sort of restraint, alongside the kind of restraint of the camera and the observational style of this film, that's sort of someone else steer.
I wanted something very strong.
To trigger the audience to be like excited or invited into a process of thinking and questioning. But that would be pleasurable, you know, that would be like an enigma that you were trying to solve as you were watching it.
So that was that we used that film. We use that music while.
We shot the film as an example of what the music might be in the end. Oh really, then yes, We shot it from the very first shot that we set up. It was used through the entire film, every queue from Michell La Grand's score, and then it became part of the DNA of this film, so we couldn't.
I had to go to Marcelo and.
Say and say, dude, can we can we adapt it and make it your own and he.
Did just that well.
It really added so much, obviously to the film. Congratulations to all of you. It was fann.
Thank you so much.
Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me, a subject you want us to cover, or you want to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world, reach out. You can leave a short message at six oh nine five point two five to five five, or you can send me a DM on Instagram. I would love to hear from you. Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers are Me, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,
and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode, or to sign up for my newsletter wake Up Call, go to the description in the podcast app or visit us at Katie correct dot com. You can also find me on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.