Talking TV with Catastrophe’s Sharon Horgan

today's show, and not just because it's in London. It's also about a divorced couple and their tug of war over their kids. That's right. It does have a wonderfully happy ending, but we won't get into that. But messy relationships,

those are today's guests, bread and butter. Sharon Horgan is a British writer, actor, and producer whose body of work has covered everything from dating and not being sure about getting married, to trying to make a marriage work, to Yes, d I v O r c E. Which, by the way, is the name of Sharon series for HBO, which stars

Sarah Jessica Parker and Thomas Hayden Church. I guess you have to have three names to be on that show, and in the last dozen years, Sharon has written or co written no fewer than four UK TV series and acted in even more. Her break through show was a dark comedy series on the BBC called Pulling And for those of you who do not know uh and get your minds out of the gutter, pulling is a bit of British slang and we had Sharon explain what it means and stay tuned for that because it is a

bit saucy. More recently, Sharon has been co starring and writing the Amazon series Catastrophe, which is about to launch its fourth season, and Sharon met Rob Delaney, her Catastrophe co star and co creator, on Twitter. How very twenty one Century of Them? That shows all about a sexy fling that resulted in a row pregnancy and a new couple trying to make a life together, getting things a bit out of border. That's not even to mention yet

another current TV show of Sharon's motherland. And she does really make me feel lazy Katy, I think compared to Sharon, we're both kind of lazy brand what are we going to do? Anyway? We were super psyched to have That's what they say over here in Britain. Isn't it super psyched to have come and do our podcast here in London, especially after a long day of filming. And we talked about all kinds of things for various TV shows, her childhood and why she got into acting, her friendship with

the late Great Carrie Fisher. We also talked about the vote, the recent vote in Ireland, the me Too movement, and your favorite subject, Brian Gregsit Okay, Sharon Oregon. We're so happy to have you here. We're here in London and we're interviewing you. So life is good for us, but perhaps not as good for you because you've been filming all day long. You're probably exhausted and about ready to kill us now, I mean I'm going to kill you. It's it's a pleasure to be here. I'm just like

worried that I'm brain dead. I mean, also I'm in trouble with my eldest daughter because I'm supposed to be at home. But that aside, I'm more worried about just you know, my fatigue making your show not interesting. Well, I'm worried about your eldest daughter and please extend her My apologies to her, So, so you make me feel like such a loser. You're doing three TV shows at at the same time. You're starting in one, writing and producing two others. You were just in Game Night, so

obviously you're doing some film as well. You're running a production company with your female partner, well your partner, not your female partner. You're you're not married to your production company partner. So are are you now? When people say partner, I'm always like, Wayne, but are you loving life? Are you really stressed out? What is your state of my vs? Days? Sharon? I mean it kind of changes day to day. Really, yesterday I hated my life and today, you know, it's

all right. It's yeah, it's a bit busy at the moment because of our production company, and you know, there's a few things sort of moving at the one time. But that always happens, doesn't that I mean exact right, So I still have that slight thing of um because I got my break kind of late in life. I'm still like, you know, you've got yeah, exactly, and it's it's ridiculous. I should just take some time off. Let's

just be, you know, like a normal person. One. But on the other hand, it's kind of an unpredictable business. And when your hat your hat, sister, yeah it is. I mean that's the problem. That's my that is the problem. But yeah, but I mean most of the time, I just feel pretty lucky because I enjoy my job. Like it's hard work, but you know, it's got lots of plus science. The good news is things are going really really well. I mean, I'll kidding aside, you're in demand,

you're doing great work. You're doing I'm sure what you dreamt that you could do one day. Oh god, yeah yeah, yeah yeah, So take a moment and soak that in. I will. I mean, people keep telling me to do that.

Really nice women actually keep telling me to do that because they sort of notice it more than anyone else, Like just go and like, you know, have a burger or you know, Rob and I when we first started writing Catastrophe, we planned constantly that at some point when we when we finished writing, like whatever, it was the first series at that point, just like we should just go, we should just go and have lunch, you know. And there's never just been a moment. We're all like always

just like you know, last minute writing. It's always like a crazy kick bollock scrumble and then you know, then there's no time for lunch. So, speaking of catastrophe, of which I'm a big fan, the name comes from orb of the Greek as I've learned. So tell us about that quote, I'm married, Um God, what is the quote? Again?

I'm very I have a wife, kids, house. The whole catastrophe what it was about, it was it was too I mean, we love the idea of, you know, terrible things happening to regular people and those people kind of finding a way out of it, you know. Um, but also we like the idea that just marriage is a catastrophe, just as a as an idea, you know. Um. So yeah, we just I don't know, Rob came up with it, and we just it was one of those things like everyone will tell you that the title they give something,

it's a working title. And I really think it's looking better. I mean everything I've ever written is like, that'll do for now. And then you're like God, and then you know you go with us. Well it does kind of say it all. And before we talk about the premise of the show, which is so funny and so great, let's talk about Rapp Delaney for a second, because you all met on Twitter, which to me strikes me as

so funny. Although I'm starting to get to know people on Instagram and Twitter and sometimes I d M people and you know, people tell me things on the social media platforms and then I start talking to them and developing a relationship. How did it happen with you and Roth?

It was kind of like that, really, Um. He he'd started getting a lot of interest in the UK, UM, just because he's he's so funny, like he's always done these amazing one liners and he you know, he's kind of gross and I mean the stuff he says not not him and um, so I started following him and

and I noticed he was following me. And at that point when I joined Twitter, I'd had a show on the BBC called Pulling and he had somehow watched UM in the US, and so he got in touch with me just to say that he enjoyed the show and and I was like, well, you're great as well. I like, that's like you had a little Twitter flirtation. Not really, but you know, he was pay his picture on Twitter He's on a beach in green speedos. So yeah, okay, an element of that I thought he looked like Buck Rogers.

So yeah, a few of us were like, oh my god, who's this guy? And uh and then I when I when I went to the US to work, I'd go and see him do stand up and we sort of kind of became friendly, and you know, we sort of planned to work together on something. And then he Um, the BBC originally offered him, you know, a sort of script deal, and he was like, I've never written a sitcom before. We you write with me, and and the rest is history. They say, you never know how these

things are going to go. I mean and definitely, and we always say it. We we literally never expected it to go beyond writing something for fun, you know, and it would get turned down and then but yeah, it sort of it worked out. And yeah, series four, Season four, now you're shooting now, right, And and for people who don't love this show like Brian and I do, or maybe or haven't discovered it yet, tell us quickly the premise, um, well, I mean, the premise really is um. Is their partnership,

is the marriage? I mean, I guess the very genesis of it is them meeting Um, you know, he they meet they have this wonderful sort of six days in London. He gets are pregnant, and they decided to just have a go, you know, because of their ages and situations, and they like each other. I mean they do like there's definitely you know, in the first episode you can sort of see that there's something there and so yeah,

it's excited. The pregnancy is a complete show. Oh yeah, I mean it's kind of slightly based on my life situation a little in that I got pregnant very quickly with you know, a man's baby, and you know, we just decided to have a go, and you know, we're still together. But yeah, we just we just liked the idea of writing about a real marriage and and really genuinely making it as words and all as possible. And when the kids come along, we didn't want to write

about what it's like to be a parent. We kind of wanted to write about what it's like to continue to have a relationship whilst being a parent. You know, So it's never been about the kids. It's always been about them. I mean, I think we've given the kid one line in four years. The genesis, as you mentioned, is based on this unexpected pregnancy. Here is the clip from the show Let's take a listen. You just don't

think that stuff like this will happen. What they repeated, sexual intercourse between two healthy adults will do the exact thing it's supposed to do. Have you ever done a science class? You know how to read. I'm sorry, I'm not pregnant, and you are and it's because of me. But if you're going to have this baby, he says, I'm going to, Uh, well, how old are you? Look? The good news is is that we're reasonably good people, so we could probably do this and not fund the

kid up too horribly. I'm just saying, a terrible thing has happened. Let's make the best of it. So are you staying I'm joking, I'm staying in my spare room. I'm joking. I'm a teacher. I'm a spare room. So so much of this show, if not ripped from the headlines, is ripped from the pages of your actual life. And we'll get to your other shows and how they're ripped from the pages of your life as well. But is it true that nothing from this show is really made up?

That either happened to Robert to you in some form. I think we said, um in the first series that we made up some ridiculous figure, like you know, percent of it and mean there there there was a bunch of stuff in the first series that was pulled from our lives and you know, bigger ideas and small plot lines and you know, tiny little detail. I mean, we

were kind of stealing. But but as it's gone on, it's kind of become less and less because we know the characters more and we know you know, what they would do as opposed to what you know we would do, so and it's, um, yeah, it's been an interesting process in that way. I mean, they'll still always be stuff that's real in there, because we both you know, we arrive into the writer's room having just come from our lives and it's very hard to leave that behind when

you're writing a show that's you know, has similarities. And also the cadence I would assume sort of the dialogue and the way you talk, I mean, even sort of that last line when you were making the joke about being a teaching that, I mean, I would imagine we're not friends, but that's probably something you would kind of

riff with, riff on with your friends or with your husband. Yeah, yeah, I mean we both m yeah, when when we walk into the writer's room, we really do just start writing down what each other are saying, you know, before we've even kind of worked out any bigger sort of plotlines and stuff that that kind of I think, Yes, how you how you speak and how you say things, um, sort of yeah, definitely comes into it a lot. Jeremy Rainboard, your husband, who has the best name ever, by the way,

it sounds like a super action figure. Well, the good news is he's home taking care of the girls right now. So yeah, that's true. So so when he when he watches this, does he ever say honey really? Um no, I mean only in that, you know, he kind of wishes that I dealt with my real life problems the way you know, my character sales with them in the show.

I mean she's like a kind of more emotionally developed version of me, you know, like she has those feelings and says those things, but then kind of works through them and comes out the other side. I mean, I just kind of feel them and then just sort of store them up like a horrible kind of bubbling councor Alright, I think you're not a good talker. No, I mean that's unusual because usually the woman all she wants to do is talk and the guy won't. And in your case,

your you kind of keep things bottled up. Yeah. Yeah, that's just that's just what I've tell them to do. It was an interview, it's actually a therapy session. I have a little paper towel your head and a little I don't know why it is, that is just it is how it is, you know, my upbringing or something. I don't know what we'll get to that. When you when you embarked on this journey share and were you writing I guess because you and Rob wrote this together.

So were you cognizant of making it appealing for both sort of both sides of the pond, if you will. Were you writing for an American audience, a British audience, just any old audience you could get. Well, I mean, I guess to a certain extent it was any old audience, because you know, the at the time, we you know, we had no idea where it was going to go,

what was going to happen. But once we got beyond the pilot, yeah, we definitely, we definitely had one eye on on both camps, and you know there's those jokes that don't kind of go in if we feel like they won't translate. Um. So yeah, and also you know how we chose to cast it, and you know, making sure he had an American buddy in London and you know, getting carry and we we definitely wanted to feel like there was recognizable characters to a US and a UK audience.

And you know, not that you always need that. I mean I think if you know stories have got a kind of truth in them, you know anyone would kind of get it. But definitely now we kind of have an eye on both. And you just mentioned Carrie Fisher, who played your sort of evil mother in law on the show, and it's extraordinary. I mean, you had dinner with her here in London the night before she died. You wrote a very moving tribute to her in the

Hollywood Reporter. Um, what made her such a complete original? Why? Why why did you? Um, why were you so attracted to her? Well? We um, we went to this awards do where she was giving an award to Graham Norton actually, and we weren't expecting her to be there. We were just in the audience and she got up and she did this speech and you know, like any Carrie Fisher's speech, it was kind of everything was you know, irreverend and naughty and brave and very funny. And I think that

was it. I think we did. We just looked up at and went, that's um, that's your mom there, Rob, And we just never thought for a second she'd say yes, but she did. And why we we chose her is because she is that unique person that you're talking about, you know, I mean, she was a complex individual and um, but mainly I think it's very, very difficult to grow

up in that sort of very Hollywood lifestyle. And I mean, apart from that, I think it's difficult obviously being Princess Leiah, being such a so hugely famous that it kind of almost kind of surpassed everything else. But she still, you know, she just had a very sort of rye kind of point of view on all that. I mean, she talked about it a lot, and she talked about her family a lot, and she was very open. She was really

good talker. Obviously, you could listen to her all night and we were just desperate to get to hour from the minute she showed up. But it wasn't until the third season that. I don't know, it's just weird. We just sort of clicked, you know. She just started messaging me and I was like, you know, I was absolutely thrilled,

and we just started hanging out. She came to my house in Hackney and I went for dinner and just like talked a lot, laughed a lot, and yeah, it's just horribly tragic because I mean, that night we had dinner, there was you know, I mean, she she'd like health troubles and stuff, you know, of course, but it just didn't it didn't seem like someone who she seemed like someone who had a lot of plans. You know, she had a lot more to give. And she also she

loved acting. You know, that was the thing I really sort of learned about her. She really she really wanted to do more, and it kind of bothered her that she didn't kind of get the opportunities that she would have liked to have to have gotten. And but yeah, we we genuinely felt and I'm gonna see blast and lucky to have her for that short time. I mean, on a ridiculous privilege. I was going to say, it sounds like you all became actually really really good friends.

And so it must have been surreal, Sharon, for you to spend this time with her, you know, having so much fun the night before, and then hearing the news that this had happened. It must have been such a shock. Do you remember when you heard that and how you

were able to process it? Yeah? I absolutely remember, because I was having a Christmas drinks party in my house and my daughter came running down from upstairs because you know, obviously she's a teenager and on social media all the time, and they came running into the kitchen and told me, and yeah, well I just had to leave my own party, and I went upstairs and I start That's when I started writing that article, because I thought, if I don't write down this stuff now, like what if I don't

remember the conversation, Like what if I remember the last thing she said to me when she walked up to her bedroom, And so like that's how I kind of processed it. I just immediately started writing everything down. Well, you know, I guess in some ways, I mean not to to be pollyannish about it. As tragic as as Carrie's death was. I mean, what a gift that you got to work with her and get to know her

and you know, and spend time with her. But it is it's so heartbreaking because I watched that documentary about her mother and with with Debbie Reynolds, and I think you're right. It was such a unique sort of situation and they're living right next door to her mom, and the you can understand how crazy making that whole scene was. And the fact that Carrie Fisher survived and in some ways thrived despite these kind of this very uh sort of high octane in the light Hollywood existence, I think

is pretty remarkable. I haven't watched it yet, I think as it came out not too long after death, and I was like, I just don't think I can because she was so and also we were editing the third season when it happens, so we were like seeing her every every day and she's so alive on screen. And then I thought, I can't watch it, but I definitely will at some point. It's very much worth watching for

her and for Debbie. Yeah. Yeah, Well, when we come back, we're going to talk to you, Sharon about sort of how you got into this crazy business. You're sort of Irish heritage or for Irish heritage right your your work with Sarah Jessica Parker, which a lot of our listeners will be interested in. So we'll be back with more from Sharon right after this. Remember we love hearing from you listeners. Listeners like Julio Lopez, who wrote this to us, take it away, Katie. I enjoyed the show so much.

I even considered offering my services as the Lighty to your barefoot contessa. That's very sweet of you, Julia, Thank you so much, and for everyone else. Lighty is Ena Garten's assistant who was featured in the interview we taped in INA's kitchen. Julia also wrote, I would be remiss if I did not mention that Katie singing Oh, I love this, Julia is one of the highlights of the show. Well for some of us, Well, thank you very much.

Don't worry. I'm going to keep those hits coming. We also heard recently from an Irish listener, gosh, we're so international, Brian named Thomas. Why don't you read that one and try not to do it with an Irish accent? Oh damn, I was about to sure think, Thomas writes, I have to say that the Trump era has somewhat changed the image of your country to the rest of the world.

The US on your podcast, however, remind us of the great forward thinking minds that still originate from America, and listening to your show, I became a lot more optimistic about the future ahead. By the way, Thomas also wrote, ps, come on a world tour and visit us sometime, kind of the Irish version of May West this Tamus. Hey, we didn't make it all the way to Ireland this time,

but hopefully you'll be enjoying these London episodes. Remember if you want to drop us a line, you can email us at comments at current podcast dot com or call and leave a message at two to four, four, six, three seven. The messages really mean a lot to us and we try to read and listen to all of them, so please keep them coming people. And now back to

our conversation with Sharon Horgan. Sharon, you talked about the difference a little bit between British and American humor, and there's this great quote in a New Yorker profile of you that UK sitcoms tend to be darker than America could ones encouraged by a powerful public broadcasting system whose aim is to serve the varying taste of taxpayers, not the upbeat preferences of advertisers, and by a national psyche fixated on the immutability of the class system, not on

a dream of self improvement. Americans believe that things will get better. Brits laugh at how things stay the same. Do you think that's right? Um, yeah, I mean, I guess essentially, I mean, I think the game sort of changes and is changing all the time, because I think there's a huge difference between what you see on a on a network TV channel, you know, in an NBC or ABC, and what you know goes out on Amazon

or HBO. And but yeah, I mean when when I was initially working over there making pilots, I found it hard to sort of tell the stories I wanted to tell because it felt like there always had to be a kind of moral at the end, and you know, there had to be a kind of rosy ending, and

we never felt the need to do that here. And I think all of the most famous and successful sitcoms very happy to have an unlikable hero at the heart of it, and that you don't have to be successful, you know, you don't have to be good at your job. It didn't feel like on u KTV you needed to do any of those, um those things people perceived class differently and whether the future is always going to be better differently. Yeah, I don't know. I mean the class thing.

I mean, you can't really mention Rosanne now Ken you but Kenny, well, it's just sit back in the day. That was the sitcom that sort of inspired me to want to write sitcom you know, I mean out of the U the U S sitcoms because it was a working class family and it did kind of allow you to, you know, laugh with them, but you know, be ad with them, and um, it wasn't aspirational, but you know you kind of wanted to spend time with them. And I mean that doesn't seem to be something that you

saw that regularly on on USTv. It felt kind of unusual. Um, I mean I don't know, I only read on Twitter what happens about that? Yeah, so, I mean on Twitter and you pretty much have the story then because it all started on Twitter. And when when you read about that, did you think, I yi yi or what what was your reaction? Um? Well, oh god, I mean I guess it was it felt like absolute fair dues that they canceled it, because I mean, that's an impossible situation to

be put in, isn't it. I mean, what a disaster. But um, I just find her such a difficult character to get my head around. And I actually just found myself wondering what the dynamic was, you know, in the writer's room and on set and you know, how that how that worked, how involved you know was she or you know in terms of storylines and but yeah, I mean I just didn't see what else they could have done.

They were in a they couldn't win. You know, I wanted to ask you just because it happened so quickly after Rosanne, Samantha be gotten a bit of hot water, And I'm curious if you read about that. Yes, when she you know, sometimes people are busy and they're not as addicted to social media as some of us. But you know, Samantha b who we've had on this podcast too,

I've got well, she's the opposite of unhinged. I think she's I mean, I absolutely love her show, and I love her and I think she's a really smart, brave woman, and I think she's a great mouthpiece for you know, American females to of there, I think she's you know, angry, and she should be. I don't know, I think we have a different relationship with that word here, you know,

I mean we kind of bondy it about. Like I wanted to ask you about that because I read a column that was a bunch of journalists from the New York Times, and Barry Wise is a columnist for the Times, talked about how she dated somebody here and how this word is a lot less incendiary that word in the UK that it is in America, because in America it is like horrifying. Yeah, but that's also kind of ridiculous

because it's such an insane double standard. You know, it's such an insane double standard that some words are considered that bob, but other words are kind of you know, glossed over. I mean, particularly just from the American right, you know, I mean, they're they're insane anger over. That just doesn't just doesn't bring true to me in any way. It a crazy time, isn't it. I Mean we are talking about the C word, talking about all this stuff that's going on, and uh, it's hard to keep up

with it, isn't it. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I think it's interesting how comedy is sort of dealing with it, you know, how how much comedy has sort of taken it all. Everything is feels so fraught, Isn't it like a landmine? That's it, And it's still shocking every time you hear one of these things break. But I'm gonna do an awkward transition ask you a little bit about your biography. Um, So you were born here in Britain. Your dad owned a pub, which is I

don't know, stereotypical but still kind of cool. But you actually moved to a turkey farm in Ireland when you were really little. So do you consider yourself British or Irish or some combination of the two. Well, no, I consider myself um Irish. Um, but I always so kind of consider myself a Londoner. I suppose because it's one of those cities that it kind of feels part of you. I guess like New Yorkers feel. Um. I moved to Ireland when I was really little on my mom's Irish.

She met my dad in London. That's why you know I was kind of born here. Um. You know, my brothers and sisters are Irish because they were all born there except from my older sister, and I don't know, I guess it. It's it's one of those countries that kind of you know, it's just in your blood. There's nothing you can do about it. I mean, I've got a kind of ridiculous accent now that isn't really I have to show you not very Irish at all. I was going to say, what is it. It's just a mess,

that's what it is. It's like twenty five years of living in London and then occasionally helping back to Ireland and you know, inhaling some of the accent just to you know, at least get the vowels right. Do you find you slip into, you know, talking with much more of an Irish accent when you go home or yeah, I do. But then it's almost more ridiculous in a way because it's like I'm trying to be one of the gang, so so talk to me and you're I'm not going to see that because it'll sound like a

called Irish accent and then I won't get any work. Well, you you did? You always want to be an actress from the time you were young or when did you get bitten by the bug. Oh, I mean kind of mid teens. I think I wanted to go to our college. I mean way before I I you know, decided that I wanted to be an actor. I don't know, I'm not sure where that came from. Just you know, I come from a large Irish family, so you know, the attention seeking must be part of it. But many kids

in your family, there's five of us. That's kind of smart. You know, it's hard to fight your way to fight your way to the top of that one. Um. But yeah, I don't know where the acting thing came from because you know, like you said, turkey farm, it's not the sort of I mean, who do I think I was kind of thing. How good were you at plucking the turkeys? That's it's pretty okay. Yeah, I would not want to. Yeah, it's a revolting it's horrible job. Yes, yes, it's vile.

I made a little short film about it a few years but it's called The Week Before Christmas because growing up on a turkey farm, you know, it was all about it was all about Christmas, and it was a crazy time of year and we as kids kind of you know, I just had to had to deal with it, had to deal with the craziness of it. But there was like, within within all those years there was some kind of interesting stories that kind of kind of condensed into one kind of fifteen minutes short film. It's kind

of a love load. We're gonna have to check that out. Yeah, I'll send it to you. So it didn't really work out initially for you in terms of acting, right, I mean, you couldn't get arrested, basically, that's true. True mind you sad chapter in your bath. It all worked out, but you were working, I guess and at an employment center in London while you were pursuing an acting career, not particularly successfully at the time. And then you kind of had a holy ship moment literally right and you said,

I'm out of here. What happened? What was my holy ship moments? Well? I was working in a job center, an employment service center for six years. Um, you know that wasn't good. I was, you know, I was kind of doing the odd play above pubs, you know, a bit of fringe theater, but really you know, not not getting anywhere. And I think not trying really because if I tried, I might get it and then fail you know. So, I mean, I'm guessing that that's what it was because

I can't think of a better reason. But yeah, I was asked by my office manager one day if i'd clean up at the front of the building, and I went. I was like, First of all, I was like, why are you asking me to clean up? But anyway, I went out the front of the building and there was, Yeah, there was a human turd on the pavement. And I just sort of how did you know it was human? By the way, it's it's pretty obvious case been a big dog. I guess it could have been. I guess

it could have been. I don't know. I live in New York Share and I see this have been frequently with big dogs, And I was like, holy moly, wow, do you know what people? Where is your bag? No? I do, actually, and I see people that seen up after their dog. I say, squeeze me. You actually say squeeze me. Yeah, but I do call them out. But anyway, so you said, yeah, I just I just went back in and then I handed in my notice and I

left and and I went to university. And when I went and applied to do a degree in English, and part of my degree was creative writing, and that's kind of what got me writing creatively creatively. Just a fast forward, you met Dennis Kelly uh in a pub of all places, you meet people in the strange place this year, and you all teamed up and you created the aforementioned show Pulling. I'm afraid to ask where that name came from. By

the way, Well you know what it means, right, I don't. Oh, well, pulling over here is just like going out to get yourself, you know, a guy or a girl. It's it's like going out specifically to use it in a sentence for me, Um, did you pull anyone the other night? Yes? I did. Yeah, I got really lucky. I pulled a really really good looking lad. I mean, that's that's all it is. It's it's hooked up or nailed. It means hooked up. I mean it could be you could pull someone and it's

just like a bit of making out. Or you could pull someone and you know, you go home with them. I mean there's a whole, there's a rain, there's a range of pulling. Thank you. I feel so much smarter now for knowing that. Yeah, so that's where it came from, and that became a cult hit and that was sort

of about your life in your twenties. Yeah, well Milan Dennis Kelly's life completely because we both you know, we're both on sort of wrong paths, um, and yet we both found ourselves living you know, in the capital city, living in London with no money, you know, with not many prospects, in bad relationships, doing jobs we didn't like. But you know, living in London and sort of seeing that there was something much better over there, you know that someone else was having and so yeah, it was

kind of it's kind of about that time. It's about that sort of difficult time where you're you realize you're definitely not a kid anymore, but you definitely don't have the skills to to be a proper grown up. So when that show came out, you were also either pregnant or you just had a baby. Yeah, your daughter, Yeah, it's one of them. It's waiting for you, but you remember her. Okay. Anyway, you said it was the making of me. It gave me a different work ethic. So

how did having a baby make you and change you? Um? Just focus, I guess just um, I really liked being a mom like way more than I thought. I like it. I really like babies, and I wanted to hang out with her, and so if I was going to work, I just had to make sure that the time I was away from her was used really productively and wisely. So it just made me, you know, someone would come in to look after her. Obviously, I just didn't like

leave Renny corner. You didn't leave the door open. So yeah, I would just sit down in my desk and work solidly for those hours when I when I had a childminder, and that was the kind of that's what kind of termed from babysitter here, child mind, childminder. Yeah, but you can say babysitter. Babysitter kind of implies something you do in the evening. You know, a teenage girl baby there

was more fun. Maybe there's more fun. So I'm a relatively new parent, and uh, there's something I struggle with people. I think a lot of people just talk about this in the context of women, but it affects men to sort of work life balance. When your work, you feel guilty for being with your kid. When you're with your kid, you feel guilty for not working. How have you dealt with all of that? Because you've seemed to manage both pretty well. Oh do you know that? What do you

know that? Well? Manage both very well? Her kids seemed to like her some of the time, and her professional life is going really well. So I don't know, I was making a bit of an assumption. Yeah you did, but that's okay. Is that a correct assumption or an incorrect assumption? I don't know. I think I've gotten better at it over the years. I think back in the day, it used to stress me out horribly. Guilt was massive, But then I still realized, you know, they've turned out

pretty well. They're both really nice girls. You know, we all like each other. I mean, I've it's nothing terrible has happened, you know, And I'm definitely I definitely give myself less of a hard time than I used to, because I mean, I guess I figured out what was the point of it, And I think, I don't know, I think you have to stop giving yourself a hard time before you can stop sort of giving other women

a hard time as well. I mean, I think it's really um easy to I don't know, just to go out and say that you're supportive of of women in this industry and you know what should be happening, and you know, but it's actually it's really important when a woman turns around and says to you, um, you know, God, I had to go away for you know, a week or a month or whatever it was. And instead of going, God the kids miss you, just go, you know, no

good for you? How are you? You know you're actually need to drink, you know, And I'm just I don't know. I think it's really important to give give each other a break and also give yourself a break. Yeah, I just didn't feel that guilty. And I was a single mom for most of my children's lives, and I feel like working and being out in the world made them proud of me and also made them more independent. I think sometimes, you know, you spend too much time worrying

and hovering. And I was so excited when I went back to work after Ellie was born. It was like, I gotta go because I had this nasty green villo or bathrobe and I was trying to use this freaking breast pump and it was such a nightmare. I could not wait to get out of there. Well, I mean, the thing is, I was not really bad, am I

I'm not judging people are gonna think they shouldn't. The thing is is when I get in in the evening, I mean, it's different when I'm filming because you finished really late, especially when you come and do podcasts after you've finished filming. We apologize to you, but what no probally writing I you know, I finish a decent time. I get home for supper. We have supper together, like you know, read stories, and I think having dinner again and and and I mean obviously not always, but as

much as we can. But like I think, when I'm when I'm having that time my kids, I think, what would I do if I got home like two hours earlier. I mean I would just I would be a less good mother because I would be less you know, on it or fun or you know, less focused on them. I honestly wouldn't know how to use the extra time. And that's the truth. I think. The bottom line is

people have to do what's right for them. You know, I respect women who want to stay home and men who want to stay home, which we're seeing an increasing number of men. Also, there's a lot of women who can't. They don't have that choice. It's not like I can afford, you know you, They have to go out to work. So for them, those women especially, it's not about choice. So absolutely we have to support them completely. I agree,

so and if and if you. I was trying to come up with a cute segue to divorce, but that just isn't working. Um um um. You teamed up with Sarah Jesca Parker for on HBO for her show Divorce. I know she hadn't done a TV show since Sex in the City. Were you a big fan by the way of Sex in the City. Yes, absolutely, I've watched every episode like five times, except for the funky spunk one, which I inadvertently watched with my eight year old and

twelve year old at the time. My daughter's basically learned about the birds and the bees from Sex in the City. How did you how did you pull Sarah? Just? Well, well,

we were set up by HBO. I'd written some scripts for HBO that hadn't got picked up, and I was developing something else with them, and at that time she had just begune through her company pretty much as you know, developing something, trying to find something, and HBO just suggested that we might like to meet, and I think she she'd read a couple of my scription and seen something I've done, and so they flew me over to New

York to met arn. We had lunch and talked about you know what TV she liked and you know what stories we wanted to tell, and then it kind of came from there. The show is about the unraveling of a relationship, a show that quotes days Mired in the angry muck. According to The New Yorker, it's also about the divorce industry, and I think the collateral damage right that happens when a couple gets divorced. Clearly it's not based on your life experiences so far, and we hope

it never is. But why did you want to go there? What interested you in the dissolution of a marriage? Well, I mean Sarah Jessica was wanting to make a show about a long term relationship that was, you know, in crisis. I mean that's what she was looking for it anyway, and a friend of mine had recently gotten divorced, and

you know, I guess how she talked about it. Um, those sort of stories stayed with me, and I just, you know, watch the more the roses and UM a few other things that it's sort of, you know, inspired that as a sort of a good route for UM telling the story of that relationship, because you know, they're at the beginning of the end of a very long term relationship, and you know, the kind of that sort

of idea of who are they now? I mean when you leave that behind, that that marriage has been part of your life and your psyche for so long that you know kind of what happens when when you when you separate that. And like you said, I thought it would be interesting to show the industry around that and how that sort of you know, how people you know they're they're not just battling an X, they're battling all the people that surround them who are basically feeding off

there the carcass of of their marriage. And not just the industry, but the friends that you know that are there as well, friends who have either been through divorce or you know, are in a bad relationship and want one. You know, the kind of the influences that those two

people you know have. And I started reading about divorce stories, reading about the really long term ones that just go on and on and on and start out not horribly but end up so acrimonious because they're, you know, fighting about stuff that they just shouldn't be fighting about just to punish each other. And I don't know, it just felt like, um, it felt like a sort of story area that had a lot of possibilities and it resonates with at least we have a clip of a scene

from Divorce. Let's take a listen to that. I don't love you anymore. I want to divorce. Oh God, Robert beating so much cheese? Listen, Robert, are you hearing what I'm saying? Are you hearing me? Chee? I heard? Can I get your full name? At constant? Can you just I'm sorry? Can you just wait one second? Please? Can you just hang on? Robert listen to me? Listen. We don't have to make this horrible, alright, I don't want

it to be horrible. I'm sorry. He had a lot of fun to Those are two pretty special actors with Sarah Jessica Parker and Thomas Hayden Church and they each have three names? What up with that? I know? Has it been fun to work with them? I mean it was an amazing experience. I mean they're amazing to watch them and sometimes I would say the monitor and kind of forget that I was at work and think I was, you know, watching TV because it was very surreal. You know,

it was very surreal for me and kind of overpowering. Um, but um, yeah, it was. I went. I went to New York and I stayed there for five months. That is not a good or easy thing to do when you have a family, even if you're sort of flying back and forth. And it was tricky, but I loved it. I love the show that came out of it. Um.

I was very uninvolved in the second season. Um, I just got to sort of read scripts, you know, at the very beginning, and so it's kind of sort of gone off and taken a life of its own, and um, it's still like it's still a kind of surreal, kind of pinch myself kind of moment. I got to got

to do that. And when you hear Thomas Hayden Church Vomity, just now it just must just because that was the pilot and it was I mean, it was an amazing experience, but it's pilots are hardcore stress just getting all that story told in such a sure period of time. So everything that was going through my head was just what was happening in the in the next room about time and he was waiting to go on and how behind

we were or you know that kind of stuff. You are now working on another show called Motherland, right, and

and can you tell us briefly about that? Yeah, well, Motherland is UM it's it's about well, it's about mothers essentially, but there there's a there's a father in there as well, but it's a it's kind of about that idea that it's like being with a bunch of people and the only reason why you're with them is because you know you have something in common and that thing that you have in common is that you all happen to give

birth UM around at the same time. Yeah, I mean it's about kids, obviously, but like Catastrophe, it's much more about how those parents are just coping and it's about I guess kind of friendships that you build. It's it's about the kind of world that you create to help you cope and help you get through the day. So, UM, how's it going. Yeah, I mean, we we are first season. UM came out over here UM at the end of

last year. So and it's just UM started on Sundance in the US, and yeah, yeah, I was interested to know what a US audience would make of it, because really they are you know, they they're They're not They're not sunny characters. You know, they've got they are super flawed, tricky, difficult at times. Um, people sound like my kind of women. Yeah, well, I hope so, I mean, I hope so that It's just that there is not like with Catastrope, there's kind of a sweet kind of underbelly to it, um, But

with Motherland, there is no such underbelly. We know you have to leave, But I just wanted to ask you a couple of quick questions about current affairs. I was curious that someone raised in Ireland what your reaction was to the vote that overturned and the biana An abortion. There were you surprised? I was surprised at the landslide nature of it. I think that was the thing that blew everyone's mind. I mean, we all thought it was

going to be such a close call. And it's thanks to the sort of ground movement of the women of that country because really, um, the Yes campaign, they just went out and they knocked on doors and they it was such a. It was such a positive, lovely campaign that they ran. They put the groundwork in and and I guess people listened, and I think everyone's feeling was so just so proud of the country and just so

proud of the country that it has become. And and the fact that you know, women were finally listened to and those stories were heard, and like some of these women have just been fighting for that for for years. And I mean it was a difficult time because there was a lot of really desperate, sad, sad stories coming out of it. So it was emotional, you know, it

was very emotional campaign. But um, you know, I mean the absolute right decision was made and I think it's just gonna impact on the country in such a positive, beautiful way. Speaking of movements, I'm curious if Me Too has kind of reverberated here in the UK. It's something that has really captured the imagination of so many people in the States. And are you all experiencing a similar movement or is it not caught fire here as it

has in the United States. I mean, it has absolutely had an impact here and in that people are talking about the issue of inequality, um and and sexism within the industry, but I mean a lot of it is kind of focusing on For example, there's of fifty fifty campaign about actresses having you know, equal screen time. There's an absolutely terrible statistic that I unfortunately can't give you of how much time females spent on screen compared to the genus. Gina Davis Institute did a whole big study

on this. I mean it's not only speaking, but appearing and and of course from behind uses, from kids shows kind of right the way through. They're just horribly underrepresented. So that that's quite a big movement here. And obviously you know, pay equality because um, you know, recently people had to be very transparent about what people were meaning it, right. I mean, I thought it was so interesting to learn that the government insisted that across industries, whether it's supermarket

chains or the BBC, you had to make public your salaries. Yeah, were a lot of people and it was shocking. Yes, and there's a lot of very um, angry women out there, and it's and it's great, and I mean the fact that that it is so visible here it feels like it's having a huge impact on you know, the industry, TV industry and film, but also commercials exactly the same. There's lots and lots of positive movement forward to sort of change the situation. In your view, it's really exciting.

It's really exciting, and it's not bullshit either. It's not just about I mean not that pinning on a badge is bullshit. It's not because it's really important to be visible and it's important for your role models to get out there and say that you know, they're backing this and they're behind it. But it's it's not just talk.

It really feels like there's something changing. And you know, as a woman working in this industry and as someone who runs a company with another woman, you really are able to get in and sort of grassroots kind of change it. But you have to be prepared to put the work in, you know, you you really have to be bared to put your money where your mouth is and and and then let up BEI there exactly. You can't. It's not it's not like we've done our bit, you know. Um,

it's it really is a constant kind of battle. And so yeah, I hope it continues. I hope we continue being a pain in people's arses for a long time. Because that's the only way it's gonna you know, effectively make a big difference. So finally, finally, um, I want to ask you about Brexit because it was a subject of a very funny joke in one of your episodes. It's a bit more of it in the new season. Yeah, we've got to we've gotten a little bit more political

this season. I mean, you know here and there, because it's not that's not the shows about, but it impacts everyone's great to well. I don't want to give anything away, but it is a very very funny joke. But um, I feel like Brexit and Trump are part of the same phenomenon of rising populism and being against the establishment, against the experts. Would you agree with that? Yeah, I mean it's fear, isn't it. It's like fear of of changed, fear of the other though as well, you know, like

who's massive massive role. I mean, there was a it was a huge I mean there was a huge fear mongering campaign that you know, if you didn't vote for this then basically we're going to be inundated with immigrants and they were going to come and take a job and sort of burn your villages to the ground. And yeah, I mean I think the same vote was held now, I think it would have a completely different impact anyway,

because it's such a mess. It's such a mess. Well, on that note, that is a terrible nough but I mean that's what you know, that's our world. It's such a story of our times. Well, we're going to let you get home to your daughter's and your husband because I don't want there to be held to pay. And why is she mad at you? Just out of curiosity because she's got she's got a chemistry test tomorrow and she hates chemistry. Um, I think if I was there, it mum be easier for telling for her to tell

me to my face so much she hates chemistry. Well that's something to look forward to. Anyway. It's such a it's such a treat to meet you and to talk to you. Thank you so much for doing this because I know it was a long day, and uh, we really really appreciate it, and we're both big admirers of yours and wish you continued success and everything you do. I appreciate you, Brian. I thought Sharon was really nice and really fun to listen to, and I just love her accent. What can I say? She had me at

Hello or cheerio. But I really actually related to her feeling guilty about her daughter because it took me back to the days of sitting on the sofa and helping carry study for a test and getting all anxious, and at fourteen, I'm sure her daughter is a little stressed out. And I hate chemistry too. Well, my daughter loves chemistry. You know, she's nineteen months. She's totally she's brilliant. She's already memorized the periodic table. Of course, you mean yours haven't.

But you enjoy Sharon, didn't you. I had a great time. And one thing that inspired me was that, you know, she didn't have her first big hit until she was thirty six years old. And it reminded me of the old quote that it took her ten years to become an overnight sensation. And she's worked really hard and done a million things and in the end it all worked out for her. And so I think that's a good message,

a hopeful one for everyone listening. I think she's also just very insightful about the human condition, you know, and and really fascinated by what makes people tick and how they react and behave in all kinds of situations, and I think because of that, her work is really relatable. And I don't know, I have a very similar sense of humor. I'm just not that funny. You're really bleak, dark person. That's how every perceives it is the real

Katie and the sunshine is actually super dark. So we want to thank the BBC again for bringing us across the Pond, and Talie It's Silk Sound for recording tonight's episode. Yes, is very late at this point. Our usual tip of the hat to our stitcher squad, Gianna Palmer, Nora Richie, and Jared O'Connell. And thank you to Katie's enormous team over at Katie Current Media. It's enormous. They pumish yours, you know, they brush your hair, they pumise your feet

and it's incredible. They also developed some media that demiz emibina at Alison Bresnick. You three are fantastic. Katie and I are the executive producers of the show. Mark Phillips wrote our theme music and hey, if you haven't already, please leave us a rating on Apple Podcasts and subscribe to our show wherever you listen. It really helps others to find it. Well, that's all, folks, and we'll talk to you next week. But that's all, folks. Thanks for listening. Lata