Summer Break: Laverne Cox

Phofo Gigio. That's an excellent reference. Did you have a lot of summer romances, Katie? No, not really, Actually, maybe a few, But that song goes out to my hubby each on Mulnar Hi Mulner. He might not like the line that had happened so fast, but that's another story.

Any who. We're not putting out new episodes for the rest of August, but as we mentioned in the last week's show, we didn't want to leave you guys completely hanging, so we're revisiting some of our favorite conversations from the podcast, and we also have a surprise podcast up our sleeve that we really think you're gonna like very exciting to

kick off our greatest hit series. We're going to return to our interview with actress and activists and one of my favorite people, one of the smartest people I've ever met, actually, Laverne Cox. Like a lot of people, I was first introduced to Laverne in her role as Sophia in the Netflix show Orange Is the New Black, which, by the way, released it's sixth season just a few weeks ago. Now, if you're familiar with Laverne, you may also know that

she is transgender. In fact, she's the first openly trans person ever nominated for an Emmy for her role as Sophia. That's right, And Laverne is also a prominent spokeswoman and advocate for LGBT rights, and Katie, she helped inspire you to make your documentary Gender Revolution, if I remember correct, That's right, she did, and she was so loving in the process when a lot of people were very critical, and I'll always be grateful for that. We're going to

get into that during the course of our conversation. And if you're unfamiliar with transgender issues or you're still learning what it means to be transgender, your gender or gender nonconforming, non binary. There are all sorts of new vernacular about this, yeah, and I was new to most of these issues. So

Gender Revolution really is a remarkable documentary. I'm not just saying this is your friend, and I encourage all of our listeners to go watch it if you haven't already, or you could check out the corresponding episode of this podcast where we interviewed some of the folks from my documentary. That's episode nineteen from back in February of two thousand seventeen. God, we've been doing this a long time, we have. Anyway, When we interviewed Laverne earlier, we covered a lot of ground.

We talked about what it was like growing up in Mobile, Alabama, Horiz to fame transgender roles in Hollywood. Laverne was especially excited about the then upcoming TV show Pose on FX, which explore is New York City's ballroom community in the nineties, and that show, by the way, has since come out to rave reviews, so she had a reason to be excited.

We also talked a lot about the Me Too movement because it was sort of in full bloom when we had our conversation and In the last several months, Laverne sure has been busy. She sure has Brian. She hosted the lifetime beauty competition show glam Masters. She also released a dance club song called Beat for the Gods. Hey, she stole my song. And when we spoke earlier this year, Laverne and I began by talking about how the two

of us first met a few years back. We have an interesting back story, if you will, so just for our listeners, and I'm not embarrassed to talk about it because I think it's important to ollan the fact that I screwed up and what I learned from my mistakes with your help. But a few years ago on my talk show is doing something with the right spirit of trying to help people understand transgender issues, which really wasn't being talked about very much at that moment in time.

I think was back in two thousand and fourteen, and now four years ago. I know it isn't that crazy. Years ago this on this month. It aired four years ago this month, well, Carmen Career came on the show Carmen Career as a trans model, and she was interested in being the first Victoria's Secrets trans model. And she came on and in a very awkward and inappropriate moment, I asked her about her private parts. You're still your

your Your private parts are different now, aren't they. I don't want to talk about it because it's it's it's really personal, and I don't know. I didn't quite understand how offensive that was to someone. Of course, it would be offensive if someone asked me, and clearly it was offensive to Carmen of you know, understandably. So Laverne saved the day and came out and we had a conversation about it. But it really exploded in the trans community.

People were really upset about it, angry with me, and it was mortifying and I was so embarrassed. And later on in the season, Laverne came back and we actually sat down and had a long conversation about why that was so inappropriate. And I remember the producers, Laverne, they did not want me to do that. They were like, no, don't talk about it. I said, no, I want to talk about it. Tell me your impressions when you saw Twitter exploding with all that venom towards me. I'm just

curious what your reaction was, Katie. Oh, it was it's such as that was an intense timing you're taking me back. First of all, I want to say that publicist producers often say don't talk about something and that, and that if you talk about an issue that controversy, that it sort of perpetuates, and so but then when you don't talk about it, then there we don't really get a chance to have the educational moment. We don't get to have the teachable moment, as the way you you put

it at the time. And so I was so excited that you were willing and open to talk about it. And I think about the moments I've had because we think when you're a public figure, you're constantly putting yourself out there, and you're going to quote unquote make mistakes or get things wrong and upset people, and that's deeply,

deeply painful. And I felt that. I felt that even though we weren't talking, I felt like how painful it was for you um to be going through that and to have the courage to be on television and to say I made a mistake and what can we do to rectify that? It's like so hard to do and it's so painful. But I think that and I, as you saw the speech I made in London at the Attitude Awards about how that's for me, feels like this

model of how we can go forward. It's going to be painful, it's going to hurt, but if we can be accountable and be teachable, then we can begin to model that for other ball So when it all happened, though at the time, what was exciting for me is that my whole life I've been watching UM TV talks, have done presentations about TV talk shows that have since the fifties and sixties have having conversations about trans people and reduced, not even necessarily reducing us to surgeries and

transition and body parts. But what I said on the show is when we focus on that, that becomes the only takeaway. But because because it sensationalizes our identities, and having watched those interviews over the years, and I've never really seen anyone on television pushed back and say maybe we should be having a different conversation. So what was really exciting for me is that Carmen and I got the opportunity to UM to talk back and say maybe

we should be having a different conversation. And so I think when I saw Twitter exploding. What was exciting for me is is that because of social media and because of that moment, Carmen and I were able to have with you because you we pre shot that, so you don't actually have to air that, right. That's that's that's actually a little interesting factoid about the whole situation. You know, my producer said, do you want to take that out?

Because you know it made me look foolish and and and deservedly so, and I said, no, keep it in because I think it's maybe a question that other people would have asked or at least thought about. And I want people to understand that being a trans person is much more than your anatomy, you know, it has has very little to do with it. And of course I've been so educated since Laverne because of my documentary. But

I also think the conversation has changed. I feel, I mean, certainly there's there people have there's still an educational thing that still needs to happen around transpos to something misunderstandings and misconceptions about it. But I feel like with journalists now it's different. I feel it's really different, and so that moment feels really pivotal and I'm I'm so grateful to you for that moment. I'm grateful that you didn't edit it out. I'm grateful to the community who pushed back.

And I'm sure it was really painful for you the way in which some some folks in my community pushed back. Um, but sometimes that's the necessary part of it, is I mean, it is interesting when it comes to a social movement sort of you have to bottle up and release that anger, and I think it's part of the process. But I so appreciate it. You mentioned that speech that you gave it the Attitudes Inspiration Award last fall. We actually pulled a clip because it was so nice and I was

so grateful of Earns. So let's listen for a second. It is important that we begin to look for models of transformation and encourage that. And when the way we got there with Katie is it I was willing to have conversations with her with love and empathy. I do not believe that we can get to that transformation by

publicly shaming people. And so for people who didn't watch these shows and didn't follow this controversy as closely as some did, particularly in the trans community, what do you think of the key lessons that people who are not

trans can take away from that back and forth. For people who aren't trans, I mean, I think, I mean, there's so many things, um part of part of it, I think is the love and empathy piece that's so often every what I've learned, especially over the last years, that not everyone is coming from a place of good intentions. I think with Katie, it was clear that you were you do have great good intentions, and it's got some

things a little off. And so then when the intentions are clear, that we can begin to approach people with love and empathy and find ways to indicate our message better. And I'm sure with that approach, I mean, can you feel when you change hearts and minds? Do people say to you, you know, thank you? I under I mean, I I've been one of those people. Can you see their hearts opening up and their minds changing with this approach I have? I have, and and learning doesn't always

happen in the moment. It often it's incremental. But I think, I mean, part of what I get to do as an artist too, is that when you as an actor, that's the work of being an actor is having empathy having empathy for a character characters that I play. I can never sort of approach a character with like I

don't like this person. I always have to find a way, even if the character has done some reprehensible things, to empathize with her, um and find a way in So that's the work of being an artist is to is to have empathy and love for the characters I play and to hopefully convey that to audiences. And so that's the work that I do as an artist, and so I think that hopefully we'll translate into the work I do elsewhere. Being an artist is what informs everything that

I do. And UM, there's a legacy of revolutionary artists, progressive artists, through their work and their activism, have proceeded that way, and so I have a wonderful legacy to look to. We've seen a similar journey of understanding happen around the issue of marriage equality. UM, understanding around trans issues probably a little bit behind where marriage quality is, but that was maybe the fastest so shall change in

America than anybody can remember. Part of it had to do with the change in calling and marriage equality as opposed to gay marriage. How you talk about it, how you kind of find the way into people who are maybe instinctually not as understanding or haven't come across these people as much as you know, as much as some others. Um, do you think there are things that the trans community has done or still needs to do in order to make further progress. There's a lot that we have to do.

And um, there's fewer trans people than there are a game lesbian people. Um. The way, the way you've alluded to change in the conversation from quote unquote gay marriage to marriage equality. Having the conversation differently it's key, and that's a lot of what I'm the work that I'm trying to do is to shape the conversation in a different way. But I mean, trans people are under attack

right now in this country. There's we've connect there's just the list of like really legislative things that are happening, policy things that are happening around with ending of guidelines for trans kids. Um, anti trans bathroom bills introduced in state legislatures all over the country. Transfolk Stum, there's a fight for us to be able to serve openly in the military right now. Um. It really it goes on and on and on. There's seventeen with the dead last

year on record for trans people in terms of being murdered. Um, our lives are on the line. So a lot of it is about it's an intersectional issue. So when we talk about trans stuff, and it gets complicated because it's not just a gender thing, it's a race thing, it's a class thing. It's an access to education, it's an access to housing and jobs, and so all of those things sort of are diminishing our left dances. Sexual assault. I was going to say, it's it's a crime thing,

and I want to talk about intersexuality. I want to talk about sort of being under assault in this Trump administration, in the current policy in a second. But before we do that, Laverne, I want to talk about your story, your life story, because it's so fascinating and I'm sure was harrowin when you were younger. You were born in Mobile, you were raised by a single mom. You never met your dad. Um, I met my dad once. You did when you were how old? Um? I think I was

in third grade. I was in third grade. You remember that, I do. I'm not going to talk about it, really, I think there's some things the whole circumstances leading up to that that we're really really painful. And I've worked through all that with my mom, and so iud of respect to my mother and my family. I can't talk about all I totally understand. But yes, once I met my my biological father, you had and you have an identical twin brother, yes, and just just one brother, just

one sibling. Yeah, And um, I'm just curious what it was like growing up. I think about you and Mobile Alabama. I know you attempted suicide when you were eleven years old. Paint a picture for us, Laverne about what life was like. I mean, I have a lovely therapist now. She reminds me often that it's both and so like. Yes, I was bullied. Um, I was chased up from school tragically every day, and and kids wanted to beat me up. I got beaten up a lot. I was a very

fast runner. I didn't feel safe anywhere. But I was also a really creative kid. I started dancing when I walked, and I begged my mother to put me into dance classes, and finally when I was in third grade, which she found a free program where I could study dance. And I believe that dancing saved my life. I didn't have Quarey wrap dance routines and like competed in talent shows all over the Southeast and there's still trophies in my house back in Alabama. He said, you have said it

saved your life. Yeah, being creative and I was a good student. I've read constantly. We were walking distance from the Mobile Public Library, so I was at the library all the time reading. I was. I was a total nerd. As smart as you are. He's probably smarter, really, he's smarter. My brother is brilliant. He's really really smart. Um. And by the way, if you haven't watched or Just a New Black, you can meet brother's definitely playing a character though.

My brother is punk rock and god. He is. He defines and find himself as a practicing homosexual who is Negro goth, punk rock, UM and a free black man. He's um, He's he's he's a musician and an artist and his work is very in Lamar is his name in lamar dot com. If people care about his work. He really sort of hates he hates that he didn't Orange A New Black because people it's so funny because

if you google most famous, well known trans people. There's like before, people always want to see what trans people look like before. And people have a photo of my brother and then me side by side. I'm like, that's kind of hilarious. And they have a photo of him from ra just a new black and he doesn't even look like that in real lafe here it's like eyeliner or any long hair. But that's the character he played. That's the character he played. Yeah, my character pre transition.

But but when when did you When did you start struggling with your gender identity? I do you? Do you remember from the very he didn't. It wasn't a struggle for me. It was a struggle for everybody else. I was all. I was always feminine, I was always you know, I really thought that boy, there was no difference in boys and girls, cause everyone was telling me I was a boy, and I knew that I was a girl, so I didn't think there were any differences. And then

there was a therapy moment in third grade. I've talked about this little talked about this a lot. My third grade teacher, Miss Ridgeway. I called my mother on the phone and say, your son will end up in New Orleans wearing your dress if you don't get him into therapy right away. So I went to therapy and there was there was this whole sort of I guess we would call it reparative therapy around my gender expression at the time, that was trying to trying to fix me.

And up until that time, I didn't think that there was really a difference between boys and girls. I knew that I was being bullied. I knew that people were um.

People called me all kinds of anti gay slurs. They called me a girl, and I think I said, said, the interesting the irony of my life is that before I transition, kids called me a girl, and after I transition, people call me a man um and so, my gosh, it was just it was intense, but I feel like was everyone else's problem I And then it became and it's something I internalized. I internalized a tremendous amount of transphobia,

and I was like, I can't be this. And it wasn't until I moved to New York and met real trans people that I was able to accept trans people and then accept myself. But it was a problem for everybody else. Lean Team Price my idol, She's an Offer singer, and she when she talks about race, she said, it's not it's not the black people's problem, it's everybody else's problem. And that's really how I see it with with the

gender stuff. And I think for for me, I had to sort of get find access to medical care and find ways to survive because it's hard. It's as smart as you think I might be. I was working in a restaurant, a drag queen restaurant before Orange a New Black sort of became a sensation and in New York City, and I have a college degree, and I was writing, you know, articles for Huffing Compost and I kind of a smart chick. But a lot of people wouldn't have hired me. You know, I couldn't really get a job.

There's a lot of people who wouldn't have hired me as brilliant as I might seem. Um, And there's a lot there's a lot of trans people out there who are brilliant who can't get jobs because they're trans. And you were inspired at least in part by a trans woman named Candice Kane. For people in audience who don't know who she is, can you describe her and tell her tell us the impact she had in your life. Candice Kane. I love Candice Kane. Um She's a New

York City legend, and she's a trans woman. And a lot of people got to know horn Caitlyn Jenner's reality show I Am Kate. But before that, in two thousand and seven, she became the first openly transgender actress to have a recurring role in a prime time TV show. And that show is Dirty, Sexy Money. That was eleven years ago, and that moment made me believe that it was possible to be openly trance and have a career as an actor. I've been at this point, I had

a degree in dance. I studied acting in dance in college. I had done a number of independent films and been and just been going to acting class every week, you know, and turning I in turned to student Susan Batson studio in New York City, and I mopped the floors and answered the phone. So I can get acting classes for free. Thank you, Susan. It's had a little scholarship, and so

I it was being an actress something I've been. I committed myself to, you know, just and just doing the grind in New York doing the off off Broadway theater or student films or what. But I could do just to work. And when I saw that moment from Candice, I was like, this is the moment and that I sent out postcards. I love this story. By the way, was this sending out postcards from New York or from mobile? It was I was in New York, Okay, so it's

already in New York. I went to college in New York and UM sent out postcards to agents and casting director. It's like five And I was like, Laburne Cox is the answer to all your transgender acting, because I mean there was sort of a niche for being trans and being an actor. Not a lot of great parts at the time, but there were. There was something mostly sex workers and crying victims. Um. It's not funny, but it

kind of is. UM. And then the manager that I have now to this day, Paul Heloppo, was one of the four meetings I got from that. There was five postcards. That's amazing. I mean that's a real lesson, by the way, and ingenuity and persistence and just putting yourself out there that you sent all these postcards out and you got four meetings. From the meetings. I had a commercial agent for a minute that didn't work out, but then I got a legit acting agent. Um. Paul Heloppo was my

agent for many years now he's my manager. And he saw something in me, and for there were many years didn't work at all over the eleven years that we've been together. That I would be like, my guys, why had he not dropped me? You know, if you haven't, you're and agent, you have a client and they're not working. But he just saw something of men. He's stuck with me and it's kind of worked out well. It certainly has.

I mean, you did a number of appearances on lawn Order, I know, and then you did some reality shows, some independent films. You produced a documentary, produced a couple of documents, and one one in particular about the lives of seven trans children. I've seven trans youth um the time they were between the ages of twelve and twenty four. I'm so proud of all of them right now. Um Zoe Luna just had her HBO show about her Kisa. She's

she was twelve when we interviewed her. Shane, her niece, has been in a Kinneth cole Ad and he got a full scholarship to Columbia at grad school after the Tea World. I'm just anyways, all of them are really fantastic, and I'm so proud of all of them. Think I mean again, I know, I know, I'm kind of like totally fan girling on poor Laverne, But think about what you were able to do for these young people by helping them adjust, by giving them attention, and by kind

of launching their careers. I think what we I try not to be too arrogant about what I did. I think what we were able to do with Liver and cost Bus Instity where and you can watch the documentary on on YouTube or on Logo TV, is that we gave them a platform and tell their stories. And then um, with that, what were they able to do on top of that? What I learned, and I had this conversation with every one of them, that this is an opportunity for you to have a platform. Now it's time to hustle.

And what I learned from having done reality TV when I did a show called I Wanna Work for Ditty in two thousand and eight, and that was um, that's directly because of Candice Cane. That was really the next year because I sort of put myself out there in a new way. I learned that reality television was a platform. But then now it was time for me to hustle and to um really capitalize on that. And so that's what I've I've tried to do in a way that's respectful to myself and to the art and what I

want to do. UM. But that was what I said to the young people. So then it was on them. But I mean, let's be honest, giving them a platform change their worlds. I hope, so, I hope, so I will. Shane has told me that it has, and a few of the young people have told me that it has been transformative for them, So that that makes me happy. Let's take a quick break. We'll be back with more of our fascinating conversation with this week's wonder Woman, Laverne Cops.

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That's your first Refeel pack free at get quip dot com slash Katie spelled g E t q u I P dot com slash k A t I E. Thanks as usual to those of you who have left your reviews over at Apple Podcasts, like already is this your friend? Already? Kid who says objectively, I love Katie Kirk's podcast. They make you feel good and you always learned things. Wish she did them every day? Well already, it's very similar to a review my mother gave me personally every day.

Thanks for the props already, but I think we're gonna have to stick to once a week for now. Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and we may just read it on the air. And now back to our conversation with Laverne Cox. Your big break when most people in this country first clapped eyes on Laverne Cox was when you got the role on Orange, just the New Black. How did that come about? And how has that changed your life? It's funny because right before I booked Orange,

I was thinking maybe I was done acting. Maybe I'd been a number of independent films that done some TV, and I's thinking maybe I was done and hand booked any thing. For going on a year, I'm still working in the restaurant. I still working at Lucky Change the restaurant every week. And then I got the audition and I did two scenes, one from the pilot episode, of orange and one from the episode three, the famous duct

tape flip flops um scene from season one. In fact, I'm glad you mentioned that because we have a clip from that since you did the perfect scene. All right, well let's listen to you. We'll just remind people I made my own don't carry us last their team duct tape metals a very in the season. I remember that scene so well, Laverne. When you heard about this role, were you just thinking, oh God, this is going to

be so fantastic? Were you trufidacious? You know? I was at an event with my manager Paul, and he said, I have an audition for you. It's set in a women's prison. Your a hairdresser and wims through the women's prison. I was like, that sounds it sounded really intriguing. He said it was a web series and this is so there were no streaming television shows. There were web series. So I was just like, okay, a web series. Cool.

And then I got the pilot script and it was brilliant and um JINGI co when I was a huge fan of Weeds, like huge and I love her by the way, I love her too, a creator and exactly and then I, um did the audition, got the part. I was screaming and was on the street and I started screaming, and I was hopeful that people might watch it.

But I was just so excited to be working. I was I dedicated my life to being an actor, and it's a really hard thing to do, to be an artist, and so I was just happy to have a job. And then it turned into this thing where like episode three was my character's backstory and Jodie Foster was directing, and that was a dream come true. And um, did you have a moment when you thought, Wow, this is really clicking, this is this is something special season one?

It was just what I love about Season one of our show is that it was so about the work, and I was just so excited to do the work to really that I've been training for all these years. And then there was a moment I think episode and it's the rat battle scene episodes six or so of season one, and I looked around and it was room full of women of all ages and backgrounds and sexual orientations and and I'm in the middle there, and it just was like, this is the coolest thing I've ever

seen in my life. I don't know if anybody's gonna watch it or care, but this is awesome and I did honestly think anybody would watch it. I knew it was good and special, but I just had never seen anything like it, and so I was like, where does this fit in the marketplace? You know? And then it's on Netflix. I was just my my dream really was. I was like, I hope casting directors watch it and see that I can act, and maybe I'll get another job.

You know. That was my that for real, That was for people didn't think of Netflix is the behea meth that it's become spending seven billion dollars a year on content and all the rest. But let me ask you, since you first appeared and broke through on that show, how do you think opera tenner days for transactors have changed? Gosh, it's a it's a mixed bag. When I talked to my transpants, you are actors. There are more roles than

there used to be in the roles are different. Um. I'm so excited about Ryan Murphy's new show, Post is coming out of this summer. The six transgender series regular unless you all trans women of color, and they're so talented um and what is it about. It's about the ballroom community in New York City in the nineteen eighties, Like that movie Paris Is Burning if you saw that, it's about these balls that are sort of competitions where people vogue and people sort of have different categories like

realness and face, etcetera. So it's the sort of drag trans LGBTQ balls of color that Madonna's Vogue comes out of that community. And it's really when um our current president was building all these huge buildings and so that you know, New York was changing a lot in the late eighties as well. So that that's the backdrop of the of the pose, which is that's so excited about it. So that's exciting for for people in the trans community.

But how has it been a mixed bag? Well, there's still a lot of casting ridgers aren't calling USand for rules that are not trans. Well, that's the thing, right, is the real victory going to be when you don't have to play a trans person but you get to play a woman. I just get to play characters and it doesn't and the gender identity doesn't matter. I think

that is the victory. More opportunities and I think, but there's so many trans stories that need to be told as well, and so more trans folks directing and writing and working behind the scenes is actually really crucial to to pose this credit. There's two to right trans writers and there's some trans people directing and working on the crew. Um of a show I did and CBS called Doubt,

we had a trans writer. And I have a show um in development at ABC now called Spirited, UM that is not a trans character, and UM that's the lead of so hopefully that that pilot will be in the pipeline. It's but you feel like there you feel like you need to have both both stories of trans people but also trans people being cast without regard to their gender identity, because if you're right for the part, it shouldn't matter. I've always said, if it doesn't involve minstrual cycle or pregnancy,

I should be able to play it. And then the question is does the character become trans when I play the character. I'm as a black actress, whenever I play a character, the character becomes black, And do it just the character become trans when I play her, even if it's not written that way. UM, So that's an interesting question that will so that we'll see. Well to that point, you have cis gendered men, that is, people who were born as men, playing signed mail at birth, assigned mail

at birth and identify as male. Thank you for them being cast as trans women. Yes, I e. Jeffrey Tambor on Transparent although you know he may e y Leto, I e Eddie Redmayne. Who are you know? UM? I was about to say, all lovely people, but how do you feel about that? Though you know, um, there is certainly a push now in UM, in the trans community and beyond to cast trans people to play trans characters, trans people new jobs. I said earlier than our employment

rate is about four times in national average UM. And Jim Richard's a brilliant actress. She argues that when physically, when cis gender men, non transgender men or cast to play transgender women, that least to violence against us because it sends the message that, she contends, that trans women are really men. So Jared Leto beautifully plays this transcharacter in Dallas Bias Club and then arrives at the Oscars

and Golden Globes with a beard. And so folks men who find themselves attracted to trans women then see this guy with a beard, and it sends this message their trans women are really not women at all, but men, and so she contends that that leadst to balance against So I think the other piece of that is that men who are attracted to trans women need to deal

with their internalized homaphobia and transphobia. What's been so exciting for me as a transactress playing a transparacteror and Orange a New Black is that people have audience members have not just empathized with the character that I played, but they find themselves empathizing with the actress who plays her. And so there's been so much I think it's inarguable that there's been so much change because of that part that I got to play, and people connecting with this

character and then connecting with the actress and a human level. Well, think how much how many people have been educated by Sophia, right, I mean, it broke through this whole notion of gender identity and it just got right to the heart of the person, which can I think is the most persuasive

tool possible. Right, you have to be able to see people as human beings, and I think, according to a study from glad of folks in the United States do not know someone trans and so what what we do in the media is how folks get to know trans folks exactly. It's crucial. It's it's life saving and or or life threatening if the representation in the media does not accurately and multidimensionally depict who trans people really are. One of the people I featured in my documentary was

Gavin Graham. You can't see right now, but Laverne just kind of made a little prayer sign and held it up to her face because Gavin is an extraordinary person. How did you first get to know Gavin? I, you know, I became aware of his case in Gosh, and it would have been um, we should say, by the way, background, by the way, Gavin came out as transgender in high school in Virginia. His county school board said that he couldn't use the boys restroom. So apologies for the interruption,

but now that's fine. Um, well, initially he was allowed, and then parents found out and said we can't do this, and everything was fine. Gavin was going to the boys room, the kids didn't have any there was no issue. And then the school board finds out and says no, this can't happen, and they had a big hearing. By the way, and just just before we talk a little more about Gavin, we have a clip from what I thought was one of the most moving moments of my documentaries when, by

the way, we didn't film it. It was when Gavin spoke before the school board and there was a whole group of people, and he was fifteen years old, and he was so composed and so extraordinary. Let's listen to what he said. I've been aware of who I was, so I was a very young it and it's taken me a very long time to be able to be myself and be okay with that. The person I am now, being able to have all of my rights in full is such a massive dynamic difference from the person I

was just last summer. I would like to say two of that. If the evidence said that me using the boy's room would be catastrophic, I would not be advocating for myself, regardless of my personal emotions over this issue. I look only at the facts as one should in an issue that requires separation of church and state, and feelingth and state. That clip makes me cry every time I hear at Laverne and so you heard about Gavin's situation.

Did you reach out to him? I did, Actually, I really my friend Chaise Strangio, who was the a c l Youth Laurier. The a c L U is handling Gavin's case, and it was a major it was gonna be a major decision or it was it would have been the first time the Supreme Court would have heard an issue about transgender rights. And so I sent him a video message and then we arranged to meet to

meet Gavin. It was like a week after the Grammys a year ago, I remember, and I just I was moved by everything I had read about him and the videos I've seen about him, and then he's when I met him. He's so smart and so calm and composed. It's amazing. I freak out. I mean, I just when I don't think it's attention is on me and I get such anxiety and he seems so calm and his

mom um. It's amazing. I think it's over fifty percent of trans kits when they have family support, their lives are completely different in terms of positive outcomes for them being who they are. Because we should just mention how high the suicide rate is among trans children and trans youth. Yeah, it's over over forty one of trans people have attempted suicide, and I think it's of trans youth have have attempted suicide, and so it's I think sometimes people want to sort

of suggest that we're mentally ill. But if you live in a culture that tells you constantly and sends messages to you constantly that you are mentally ill, that you are a deviant, that you shouldn't exist, and that every message you're receiving constantly from everyone around you and from the media is that you shouldn't exist and that you are pariah, it is really hard to love yourself. It is really hard to think that you have a right

to exist. And that's what I want. That's what I want trans kids to know that you have a right to exist and that you're anointed, that you are beautiful, and that you're here for a reason, and that you have to find a way to survive um so you can fulfill that reason for being here. The Supreme Court decided not to hear Gavin's case. They decided not to hear Gavin's case because the current administration. The Justice Department rescinded the Obama you're a guideline around how transgender kids

should be treated in school. And and and so when the Justice Department rescinded those guidelines, then there was no case. There was no case. What did those guidelines say the guys? So basically a lot of people thought what they were about bathrooms? Right, So they did say that, you know, trans kits should be able to use the bathroom, that it's consistent with their gender identity, but also talked about preferred name. It talked about how other kids should treat

them in school. So it was an whole host of guidelines. It was really adoptions, really making making sure that trans kids were safe in schools and that they were treated in a way that was respectful to them so they could learn. Education is the reason I'm sitting here, and people should have safe schools. And that was just the first, I think thing that the Trump administration did that has started to erode the progress that had heretofore been made

before he was selected. Yeah, not just for trans people, but for across the board the Justice Department. Even though people have to remember that the current administration has not been very successful legislatively, but in terms of the Justice Department, they have been very successful rolling back mandatory minimum so many um progressive things that the Obama administration um did,

so we got to continue to resist. Unter fact, back in July, President Trump tweeted the transgender individuals will not be allowed to serve in the US military. Has that been implemented? So um he remember for that was so crazy because ostensibly President Trump had cleared this with his military leaders, but then they said he never talked to them, ostensibly meaning he didn't right and then suddenly and then

that changed. Right. So after after the tweet, the guest Department of Defense got some policy together to basically try to ban on transple And now, mind you, trans pople have just been able to serve openly barely, and it was something that like Obama, but luckily at this point to judges have said that this is unconstitutional and there's no reason to ban trans people. I think it's probably

gonna end up at the Supreme Court. So that meantime, what's happening to transgender people who are currently serving in the military. It's my from my understanding, they should be treated with kindness and respect. But again, it sends a message when the leader of the free world. I feel that I use that term loosely. Now, UM, let the record show there's some more quotes tackling UM says that

you shouldn't have a right to serve your right. And what other things have happened in the last year Laverne that have really kind of put trans people in the crosshairs? UM, I think over twenty states have passed about fifty pieces of legislation that basically criminalized trans people using the bathroom that is consistent with their gender agentity. Fifty pieces of legislation. A number of those pieces of legislation have been struck down,

notably in Texas. But a lot of people think that um h B two in New Carolina, a lot of people thought that was repealed. It actually wasn't. They basically made a new bill that basically has instituced the same kind of discrimination against trans people because they wanted to basically get their corporate folks back, And so a lot of people think that that settled. In North Carolina, it

actually isn't. The a c l U and other organizations are still I think it's lamb I Legal are still suing the state of North Carolina because they're trying to criminalize trans people going to the bathroom. This has had a profound impact on politics. The governor of North Carolina who signed the infamous bathroom band legendar not with us anymore. Yeah, he lost his race. I think he's still around, but he's no longer governor exactly. Um largely as a result

of the backlash on this issue. And last year we saw Danica Rome I think that's how you pronounced her name in Virginia be the first openly transperson elected and seated in the US State House. Andrea Jenkins was the first openly transgender black woman to be elected to public office. US shows elect to the Minneapolis City Council and met Andrea. I've met Andrea. We did a panel when I was

in Minnesota, like a couple of years ago. And now Chelsea Manning has filed to run first Senate in the state of Maryland and more of a controversial character, having nothing to do with first. I mean, I think it says a lot that we've seen this happen and that that must be a positive in a year that's been full of a lot of negatives. I think what has happened because of the current administration is that a lot of folks UM various backgrounds are choosing to run for

office and are winning. And that I think if if there's anything positive that has come out of UM this current administration, is that folks have woken up. And I think a lot of folks got complacent under my beloved President Obama. I love him, and we miss you, We miss you Obama's UM. I think a lot of those got very complacent and didn't realize that UM a lot of basic civil liberties were at stake. And I think

that is very clear now. The last time I checked, and I'm sure the numbers higher, eleven thousand women were running for office. Uh. And I think that brings us to sort of the me too movement. And I'm curious

what you think of this movement, Laverne. If you believe it is intersectional enough, that is so it's really talking about race, it's talking about gender, it's talking about gender identity, uh, not just white women in Hollywood and or beyond even and that if you think it's expensive enough, So what are your thoughts. I think we can always be more intersectional, we can always um include more. Really yeah, I mean intersectionality really for people. I don't just experience the world

as a trans woman. I experienced the world as a black person and as and and I have multiple identities and and having a social movements as funny as I've been doing a lot of rereading of Bell Hooks and a lot of black feminists from you know, the seventies and eighties, and and really for over thirty years that have been UM, women of color, queer women have been critiquing UM a lot of second way feminism that you know, thirty years ago, black feminists were like, we need to

expand this idea of womanhood and we cannot um use biological essentialism to have conversations about women. That we have to be inclusive. So that conversation has been happening for a really long time. I never doubted, I mean, I don't think anyone can hear her and and doubt how well informed, well read you are on these issues. I mean, it's unbelievable, but anyway, but but so that conversation has been happening for a really long time, and I mean we just I think what we have to look at.

I mean with Weinstein, for example, I remember all these actresses came out and said, you know that he had, you know, assaulted him and done the things that he's accused of doing. First person he challenged was Lupete ni Ago, a black woman. When he all these other women, he didn't say anything, he didn't say that I didn't do it, he'd But the first person he challenge was was Lupete and the Ago, And I think there this can't be

a coincidence. Her blackness can't be a coincidence. I noticed when some trans women have come forward and said that they have been sexually assaulted, there's been a different tenor in terms of the ways in which they've been believed as opposed to other women who are not trans. It's it's all very very tricky because there's a lot of

there's a lot of trauma. I think when we were talking about sexual assault and sexual harassment, I think it's really really important to talk about the healing that has to happen. You've been a victim or survivor, and it's one of I think the worst things that can happen to someone, if not the worst. UM, and so all the healing that has to happen, and UM, what's exciting is that UM, I mean, I've been rereading, you know, UM,

some of my belthooks and talking back. She says. One of the most useful tools that women have, and it's not just women who've been victims of sexual assault and harassment, is our voice to be able to speak up and to speak out. And so it's amazing that that I think we were just the country was just ready for that.

But UM, I think we still need to. UM. And it's not just because I and I. It's not just about including trans women, including women of color, including folks with disabilities or folks are incarcerated, including all these folks, but it's like, what does it mean to have these

folks in leadership positions and decision making roles. I'm finding myself, UM, I'm very blessed that be in the position I'm in, but I'm trying to be critical of it, and I'm trying to really think about all the folks out there who don't have the platform I have, and what do they need and what would they want me to say

when I'm in in these positions? And so much of it is about having not just the tokenized Hollywood trans woman lover and Cox in the in positions, um, and it's seats with seats at the table, but having diverse and other folks who don't have the same privileges I have. Well, it seems to me that you know, we have to start moving from outrage to policy changes and putting systems in place, and also obviously attitudes. Sometimes I think laws

precede attitudes. If you look at the civil rights movement, right, I mean, it wasn't a popular thing to enact certain pieces of legislation, but it was the right thing, and then attitudes followed and somewhat. I mean, I think if you look at that, that's a really good example that we had the voting Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act um that were past, and then black folks

that did not end racism in America. Ironically, you know, black folks are incarcerated crazy rates, that stuff, profile police, et cetera. That's for sure. But I think if sometimes if if leaders wait for public uh sentiment to be on their side, that sometimes they'd be waiting for a very long time to at least take the first step of enacting legislation. That's that is hopefully eventually one day, fingers crossed going to change hearts and minds. But where

should we go from here? Um? I think it's been so extraordinary to see people being able to express their themselves, use their voices, exhibit their outrage. But at some point do we need to then take it to the next step? In Hollywood, by the way, there is this initiative called times up um that may be a part of moving forward on these issues. But but but what are they going to do other than raise money for a legal defense fund for you know, I mean and not just Hollywood.

But how can policies and change and how can we put systems in place so that it is better for that woman who's working on an simply line at a factory in Iowa. That's part of it. Rosa Clemente, who's been doing a lot of work around Puerto Rico, we have to remember their Puerto Ricans. Um. The island is still mostly without power and without clean drinking water. She reminded me when we met that that protests are important, but then we have to do the organizing after the protests,

and so the organizing is about policy and hopefully systemic shifts. Um. So I was at times that meeting this past week, and and so the Legal Defense Fund. It's one of the things that times upsuring. There's other things, other work too. That's that's that's on the horizon, that that you'll find out more about later than it's about those policy shifts, and I think really it's how do we make workplaces

safe for everyone? Anti sexual harassment policies have existed in of UM organizations for a very long time, but so much of that it's about not getting sued. But it doesn't change the culture in those organizations. So we have to be able to change the culture and then who's

in power. A lot of folks think that about having diverse leadership, that we have more women and leadership positions and more people of color and just more diversity and so so so, and hopefully that we can begin to change the culture so that it's not okay to interrupt women at meetings and so it's not okay to that he peeting. What is no, that's man's plaining. Well, I'm doing this whole thing for National Geographic and one of my hours is on gender and equality in Hollywood and

Silicon Valley and beyond. And there's something called he peating, and that means if you're at a meeting and a woman has this suggestion and everybody is like yeah, yeah, yeah, it kind of blows her off. Then the man says it, and so there's this hepeating. There's this thing called he peating that men do where a woman makes a point and everyone ignores her and then the gun thank you for that. It's the same thing and thank you for

the illustration. Right, But anyway, But but I do think that those kinds of cultural shifts instead, so that not that we're in these things are important. I think sometimes people think that liberals get sort of you know, want to police language and and want to say you can and can say this is not about that, It's about how do we begin to change the culture, because those cultures influence policies and influence ways the ways in which

people are treated and they feel safe or not. I know, work plates are on the street, or there may be sexual harassment policies, but I don't think they've been taken seriously. I think that when they have like diversity training or sexual harassment awareness, that most people just roll their eyes.

And now I think those times have changed. But do you think that more men should be invited into the conversation because I think right now, at this juncture, I think there are a lot of men who are so fearful, and I think that some of them believe like we need to spend this time listening, but at some point we need men to join forces with women and not just listen. So do you feel like they've been shut out of the conversation too much? I think we have

to be really careful not to foreground men's voices. I think we're talking about why it's thiss gender men's voices in a in a in a movement that needs to be about women coming to voice and women having a space so that we can't foreground those voices. But men, we can't really topple of the patriarchy without um men

being engaged in that. I think a friend Matt mcgory does so much work around Black Lives matter and around having conversations with white people around their own racism, and so I think men need to be having conversations with each other, and I know some incredible guys who are

doing that work. UM list of course listening to women of all different backgrounds, trans you know, women with disabilities listening and then having conversations with other men and saying and saying, this is no longer acceptable to talk about women this way and to have conversations, and then what can we do to change policies, to change hearts and minds? And then how can we interrogate ourselves. I think a lot of men to what I've come to realize. This

movement has been really intense for me. I got to, um, I can't believe me when I talk about this, because I'm not maybe ready to fully talk about it. But I got to confront a man that i'd had a sexual encounter with that the encounter was consentual, but then something happened that wasn't consentual, and I was able to

recently recently confront him about that. And what was interesting for me in the confrontation is that he had no idea, He had no idea that his behavior was predatory, that what he didn't have consent, And I think so often the idea of consent is something that that that that men aren't really clear about. And I I'm very clear that what happened was not consentual and it was not okay, and I was able to assert that to him. But

that's a different kind of conversation, what does consent look like? Um? A woman I know name UM, who's who teaches um sex and in New York and she teaches kids, She's having conversations, you know, in middle school, really early on about what consent is and looks like. And we have to be really careful about the messages we're sending to our young people of all genders about what consent is.

And so those kinds of conversations men should be having with themselves, with um, with each other, and then ultimately with women, and then listening more and then we all have to be engaged in changing the culture. Is it just too early to kind of push that, as you say, foreground their voices. No, we should not be foregrounding voices. I don't. I mean, I mean I love Byron exactly, foregrounding so that we because it's the problem is that for far too often we've listened to men and not

listen to women. Were at a point now when women when women are finally being believed and something heard and heard, and we have to continue that we have. That doesn't mean that we're That doesn't mean because I love man doesn't mean we hate man. That doesn't mean that we want to sort of demonize men, but we have to foreground the voices and experiences of women. And then I think to whether it's not just women who are experiencing

sexual assault either. Anthony Rapp, we have to remember, came forward with some really important information about and well known actor that we all know, and um, Terry Crews and other other men have come forward and and said that they too have been And I know a lot of men and just personally who I'm experienced sexual assault. So um, it's a conversation that we all need to have. But

then there's there's something about power and accountability. I think for so long as she was just okay to do this stuff and time's up, I feel like we should also just talk briefly about pay inequality. You know, A big story this will air a couple of weeks after this whole incident, but that got a lot of attention

is Michelle Williams versus Mark Wahlberg. And I found that really upsetting but also so interesting on a multiple levels because I think at per usual Michelle Williams was trying to be super accommodating and saying I'll do whatever it takes, I'll you know, skip my holiday, right, I'll go to Italy over Thanksgiving or whatever. And then she had the same representation as Mark Wahlberg, who got paid one point

five million dollars. O'Brien told me earlier that there was some stipulation in his contract that he had approval over

the replacement actor. Blah blah blah. But the fact of the matter is, I mean the man held it up so that he could get a bunch of money, and the woman said, oh, yeah, sure, I'm happy to be accommodating, and you know, do this whenever you want to get paid a thousand bucks, which I think speaks to eighty dollars a day per deum, which which which speaks to I think women and are are discomfort in speaking up and demanding things and trying to be liked and being

the good person versus Mark Wahlberg, who of course eventually gave the money to the Times Up movement and to the Legal Defense Fund there. But I mean, why does this keep happening and how do you ussure in a major paradigm shift for that. There's so many issues there, and I can when I when I hear that, I know I can relate to especially being still feeling new to the entertainment industry and feel like, I'm just so lucky to be here that you don't want to do

anything to piss people. And I don't want to do anything to piss anybody off. I'm like, what do you need? And always trying to arrive and and be easy to work with and in and agreeable and never difficult. And so that's something I really really deeply relate to. Gosh, I think there's so many issues. There's so much that we probably don't even know about. In terms of the contract negotiations, I'm excited that the money is going to Time's up. Um, I'm excited that that's happening. UM. I

think Michelle. Michelle Williams is a brilliant, brilliant artist. Her body of work is so compelling. Her statement around this is has been absolutely just magnanimous and inspiring. I I just love I love her. I don't know her personally, but I love the way that she's gone about all this.

But part of this is I think women starting to become accustomed to owning some power, you know, and and not being so worried and being able to demand things and not be afraid what that says when it comes to and I think I think it's Susie Orman who said that we need to talk about money more in general, so that we are having conversations how much are you making? You know, so that we should be openly having conversations about our transparency are people getting? And then so what

should I be asking for? So so that's part of it. But there's something I really get that desire to be like what do you need? You know they were reshooting the film because of um the actor who they needed and needed to I know, but I don't. I don't know for every reason. But like, so I get where Michelle was coming from. Let me do whatever I can't. I get it. I really laudatory in a way. On the other hand, it's like, why should we be pleasers? And why should we be so helpful? Or maybe the

men should be more helpful. Yeah, I was going to say, is that a good thing? A bad thing? It's so confusing. Oprah talked about how often talks about her how her life changed when she let go of her disease to please and I'm I'm still learning that, um, but really choosing them, Burnee Brown says her boundary mantras choose discomfort over resentment. So we're setting boundaries and and um not being in a space of like constantly wanting to please, but so that we can assert ourselves and feel and

to stand our value. I don't I don't know Michelle personally. I think she I don't know her, but I think she knows her value with I think four Oscar nominations in this body of work. But um, she's just not a jerk anyway. In closing, Okay, no, but you know what I mean, she's like, I mean, she's a match. Yeah, she's a men, she's an any who. Um, are there other projects you're working on that you can talk about? Freak show right, Freak shows out now, Freak shows in

theaters and on demand. It's a beautiful UM movie set in high school about a young kid named Billy Bloom who is kind of gender non binary, likes to dress and fantastic costumes at school and gets bullied and it ends up running for homecoming queen UM and it's a really beautiful story. I have a teeny tiny party in your Trudy Styler directs and Bett Midler has a wonderful role in it's so folks can um I think in l a New York c freak show now or on demand.

It's you can just get it anywhere. It's fantastic. I love that movie. Um and your model for Oh my God, that's crazy. Beyonce chose me to be one of the faces of her autumn winter campaign for Ivy Park. The posters are still in top shops all over the world. I still get it's an active where line, it's an active where. It's her at leisure line. It's amazing. I was an Ivy Park fan even before I was modeling for it. Thank you, Beyonce. That's you. Are you and

fiance like this? I just did the thing where your fingers are together like you're super tight. No, I've met Beyonce once. She was about to give birth when we shot the ad campaign, so I've only met her once. We're not tight like that. Um. You know, you've got to be a lot more Hollywood. You gotta say we're very, very close. You know. I don't do that whole thing of like, should I be more Hollywood. I'm just gonna be Lavernet. It's actually very refreshing. But she she's so

I mean I've interviewed her a couple of times. I haven't seen her for years, but in the early days of Destiny's Child and then when she started on her solo career, I had the pleasure of interviewing her and I just I just adore her. I think she is so great and we're so talented. It's ridiculously be she is still the queen of us all. I have a few queens, and Beyonce is one so and I remain a genormous fan. Who's your other queen? Um? Oh my god,

I have many queens, Oprah, Um, Leon, Team Price, Violet Davis. Um. When you look ahead at this year, you know what what a What are your hopes and dreams? It was funny you were saying you wanted that role and a continuing role that one year, and then Orange is a New Black popped up? What are your goals? I want to get better at being an artist and being an actress.

I got to work on I'm Gonna be in the next season of Orange, and they wrote some really beautiful material for me and I I want to get better at what I do. I think being an actor is very difficult in doing it well. Um it's difficult, but it's also a lifelong pursuit and something that you can get better, get older, and get better at. So I want to continue to expand all the notes. New show

called Glad Masters that's coming out on Lifetime. It's a it's a competition reality show from makeup artist m Kim Kardashian. West is one of the executive who's I'm a co executive producer as well, and I'm also a host and judge, and we're looking for the next big breakout star in the beauty industry. It's it's on Lifetimes premering February. I'm so proud of it. I've seen a lot of the

episodes and the contestants are incredible. You really understand that makeup isn't just I'm not wearing makeup today, Thank God. I love having my makeup three days. But the makeup is not just about looking pretty. That it's an art, and these makeup artists we have on the show really show you that. And the challenges that we give them, um, you illustrate that. And it's fun. We had so much fun.

So you're not only doing all your acting stuff, You're like turning into a mogul of I'm trying to do continue to do what I love and do, and I love a lot of different things, and so I'm trying to sort of go with the passion and being a space of of joy and multidimensionality. I'm not just one thing, and so I'm getting to explore all of you, these different sides of myself and showing the world that they can do that as well. I think that's great. Well,

I just you know, I adore you. So I'm so happy that you came by on a Sunday no Less to visit with us. This has been so much fun. I can't wait to see how you edit this because we talked a lot. A big thank you this week to the Invisible Studios in l A for today's recording, and our usual thanks to the lovely and talented Gianna Palmer for producing the show. We love Gianna, and we love Jared O'Connell for mixing it. Oh gosh, I don't

want to leave anyone out. We love Nora Richie, our assistant producer, and Alison Bresnik on social media, Emily Bena over at Katie Currect Media, we love you too, and beth My assistant. I can't forget her. We love her a lot because she puts up with me every day. Beth's a wonder woman in her own right. Mark Phillips wrote our theme music. I would say I love you, Mark, but I don't even know you. And Brian and I

are the show's executive producers. Talk to you next week and thanks so much for listening everyone Stitcher now in certain podcasts moving forward, Lavern, Brian and I decided we're going to pick out a song that we think best exemplifies the spirit of our guests. So hit it, guys. Come on, Brian, this is when you're going to drop it like it's hot. Yeah. I don't think anyone wants to hear that. Yeah, we feel like hot stuff is appropriate for you, Laverne, because you were on fire an

English royal. We by the way, Oh my god, Hello, Dead Beats. It's Gabby. Gabby Done, host of Bad with Money. I had the Bad with Money book come out in January. I'm super stoked for season four. This season, we're going back to our roots and I'm having long conversations with amazing people and getting the big picture about money and the economy. Do you like intersectional queer, social justice based money podcasts. This is the only one, so get into it.

Did you earn it? You deserve to be like a billionaire when somebody who's working as a janitor or working in Walmart, or teacher or a teacher, yeah certainly, or a teacher who may be working just as many hours as you, maybe just as smart as you like, does that make it okay that you have so much? I get paid once a month, so my my check accounts huge. It's like a tidal wave comes in and then on the second it's empty again. Oh my god, speaking my language.

Bad with Money is back now for season four. Listen and stitch your Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. M