Sheryl Sandberg: Living Option B

I'm not like, oh, Dave died. Hi, Brian. That was Cheryl Sandberg during a conversation at the Street Why And

to quote Bill O'Reilly, you were doing it live. I was doing it live with Cheryl and her co author Adam Grant, who's an organizational psychologist who teaches at the University of Pennsylvania at the Wharton School, and together they have written a book called Option B. And I have to say it was a very personal interview in front of a live audience at the Y. It was kind of a meeting of the minds in some ways, in a meeting of the hearts. Tragically, you and Cheryl have

a lot in common in that respect. You both lost your husband's young her husband, Dave Goldberg, died a couple of years ago due to a cardiac arrhythmia while they were on vacation, and this book really came out in the wake of that tragedy and her family trying to pick up the pieces and figure out how to go on. The book is a deeply personal account of what it's like to lose someone you love at such a young

age and so suddenly. And I think what Cheryl is trying to do with this book is to not only tell her personal story, but to help people deal with all kinds of hardships and how you can be resilient, how you can find joy. But there are certain concrete steps you can take that may help speed up the healing process in a way. Well, that's something else you have in common. You both try to take these these horrible circumstances and turn them into something productive for other people.

You in terms of your your advocacy for cancer research and and her in terms of helping others build resilience after a tragedy. She is arguably the most well known and successful female executive in this country, and people are extremely interested in her. But the fact that she's opened up and shown this vulnerability I think has made people see a very different side of her, and we certainly did when I interviewed her and Adam at the Street Wide.

Let's take a listen. Hi everyone, good evening. Nice to see all of you here tonight. Um really looking forward to this conversation, and I know many of you are as well. So Cheryl, let me start with you because I want to explain sort of your relationship with Adam, and I know you and Dave got to know Adam after Dave had read one of his books. He asked Adam to come speak at his company, survey Monkey, and he was incredibly supportive. Adam was, you're getting very emotional,

are you okay? Okay? But I think according to the book, when you all really bonded was when you called Adam after you received a letter that left you utterly devastated. Tell us about that. It was a few weeks after Dave died, and you know a lot of people Adam kept saying even before that, you kept saying it gets better, but it didn't feel like it would ever get better. I felt like there's a void closing in on me. My brother in law Rob described it as a boot

pushing on his chest, and you've been through it. Grief is really overwhelming, you feel. I felt like I wasn't going to live through a day, a minute, a week. And then I got this letter from a woman who I know. She meant well, she was older, she lost her husband, and what she wrote was, I wish I had something to say to you, but I don't because it's been years and it really doesn't get much easier. And a friend of mine lost her husband ten years ago, and it doesn't get easier. And I was not strong

enough to read that letter. And actually I'm sitting on the stage with the two people I called. I called you, Katie, and you were a dear friend, and you told me she was wrong particularly helpful. Either it was very helpful. I was helpful. She wasn't it right. She was wrong and unhelpful, but she meant well, you know, And I'm still grateful that she took the time to write. She was trying. And I learned something important after that, and

I called Adam and Adam said she was wrong. And then the next day, when I was at my son's football game. You know, Adam lives in Philadelphia. I live in California, Adam walked in and I said, what are you doing here? Like, what are you doing here? He's on like the football field in Palo Alto, and he said he needed to tell me in person that this wasn't true and that it was isn't going to be true for me. Adam, tell me what else you told

Cheryl when you saw her on that football field. I remember I remember describing the person who wrote the letter, who I don't know, using some words that I can't stay on stage tonight. But she meant, well, I'm sure she did. I thought she was evil, but uh what I think the main thing that I said to Cheryl is, look that that does not have to be your experience right there. There are people who end up, you know, just suffering for years or decades, um. But this is

something that you can you can gain control over. And the question is really, what are you going to do to build resilience, not not just for yourself but also for your children? Um. And that started this conversation that's now been going on for two years, which really was the genesis for this book. I think the combination of your Facebook post that got received incredible outpouring and then

Adams sound advice and expertise in this area. You decided you wanted to to share your experiences to help other people, but we decided to write the book away later. But I think the genesis was the first. Adam came to the funeral and everyone else kind of left my house, and I asked him to stay because he was my friend who is a psychologist, and I remember looking at him and saying, you know, how do I get my kids through this? What do I do? You know, tell

me what to do? And Adam did what was incredibly useful for me as he started summarizing the research and sending me here, there's been a longitudinal study of children who lost parents and head parents who were divorced. Here's what it says you do, and here's what psychologists teach us about grief and resilience and building it. And I

mean anyone. I'm sure there's so many people in this audience who have been through real trauma and real tragedy, and there's a lot to it, but one of the core things is this unbelievable feeling of loss of control. You just have no control, You can't fix it, it can't go away. And knowing there was something you could do, even if it won't because it entirely but even take one step to make it a little bit better. It was something I desperately needed and couldn't find anywhere else where.

Why we wrote the book. We're going to talk about some of those things in a moment. But I liked what the rabbi who led Day's Day's funeral told you. He said, lean into the suck, correct, which was a very different kind of leaning in, right, Carol, I looked at him in shock. I said, that wasn't what we meant.

What did he mean by that? Well, it was really good advice because as much as I was trying to gain some sense of control and take some steps, I also had to know that I couldn't control this, and the grief would come, and it would come for me and it would come for my children, and I just had to accept those feelings. And when he told me to lean into the suck, it was saying no, the grief will come, and stop fighting it. And when I

stopped fighting it, it definitely got easier. Because I think what happens is you're grief stricken, and then you're grieving. You're grieving, you're anxious, and then you're anxious. You're anxious, and so the feelings pylon and pylon, and when I just accepted, Okay, this completely sucks and I am going to have horrible times, horrible moments to to stay accepting those feelings. Lets me process them and they pass more quickly.

I know that you write grief is a demanding companion. Uh, and Adam, you described three things in the book that can really keep people from emerging from the abyss, and you call them the three piece. Can you tell us briefly what those are? Yeah, this is I think this is the kind of friendship that we all want, right when you're in severe pain and one of your friends says to you, here, I know it will cheer you up. Data it worked for me. Yeah, in Cheryl's case it did.

Maybe maybe the only person where that would be true. But um, this is something that's always been resonant for me. In Psychologist, it's Marty Seligman's work who said, look, there are these three traps that we all run into when something goes bad in our lives. The first one is as personal as I and saying this is all my fault. The second one is pervasiveness. This is going to ruin every part of my life. And then the third one

is permanence. I'm going to feel this way forever. And when you get into those traps, it's really hard to recover. And so we started talking about, you know, how do you overcome those traps and move forward. It seems to me, Cheryl, that the personalization, the idea that oh, I should have gotten Dave to eat a healthier diet, or I should have been in the gym that day, or I should have should have should have that you were able to kind of understand that it wasn't your fault pretty quickly. Well,

I wish that were the case. I really didn't at first. I mean, the initial reports told us that Dave had died falling off an exercise machine. And my brother is a neurosurgeon, and he kept saying to me an increasing volume, that is not true. A man Dave's age did not fall off an exercise machine. He would have broken an arm. Something happened, And then we had got the autopsy back, but that took a while, and we learned he died of a cardiac arrhythmia. So then it was why didn't

I know he had coronary artery disease. Forget his doctors. Why didn't I diagnose it diddy of chest pains. It sounds silly, but I spent a lot of time with doctors medical records trying to figure out how I blew the most important thing in my life. And then once, you know, my family not so gently pointed out that I wasn't a doctor and I couldn't have done that. Everyone else in my family is a doctor, by the way. They You know, I blame myself for everything else. My

mother gave up her life. She's here with me tonight to stay with me. For a month, people were covering all my client meetings at Facebook. I had lots to blame myself for. And then it was Adam who looked at me and explained personalization and said, here's the thing. If you don't stop blaming yourself, your kids can't recover because if you don't recover, they can't recover it. And he said, you gotta stop saying sorry. Oh, that's right. In fact, you kept saying I'm sorry to everyone all

the time. Why was that because you felt like you were a burden, You felt that you had disrupted their lives. Yeah, a huge burden. I mean I went back to work and I was only there the hours my kids were at school, so very limited schedule. I did no travel for six months. I did no dinners. I still do basically no dinners because I have to be home with my children. You know, I'm an only parent now, and so you know, I had a lot to apologize for. And at home, people were coming over to help me

go to sleep. I couldn't walk into my room that I shared with Dave for a very long time by myself. So my friends and sister had a schedule of coming over so literally like go to sleep with me as if I was a child. And I just felt terrible all the time, and it was my fault. It was my fault. I was such a burden on everyone. Personalization, though, was so common. I think it's the guilt. Why could have, would have? Should have I have that with Jay? Why

didn't I notice he was getting thin? Why didn't I have him get a colonoscopy? I mean, all these things that I think you blame yourself for. I think primarily because guilt, anger, and all these other emotions adam are easier to handle than profound sadness. Yeah, I think they often are. And you know, I remember Cheryl calling and saying things like I'm really sorry, and I'm like, who

is this? There's no introduction, it's it's just a policy right after that, and it's so common, right, It is really hard to deal with with emotions that you can

do nothing about. Right to just say, yeah, you know what, David has gone, I can't bring him back might be a much harder thing to accept than to say, you know what, maybe you know there's something that I could have done differently permanence though I know Cheryl from reading the book that that was really the most challenging of the piece for you, the idea that you would never be happy, that the kids would never have a father, all those things that kind of haunted you. How were

you able to escape from those feelings? And that's sort of the chains of that particular p What was people telling me it would get better? You, Katie, were a great friend, and I know we were friendly but not as close before, but you jumped in and called me and said I've been through this, and you kept telling me it got better, and you were more credible than other people because you have been through the same thing.

Let's talk for a minute. I just want to. I actually had this question earlier but got off track of it because I want to. I want to talk that Dave for a minute. Dave, I think was so beloved. It was such a special person, incredibly generous. I didn't know Dave well. My husband, actually, who's here, sat next to him at some Bluebird event and Dave turned to John and said, what are you doing here? And John said, I'm married to Katie Curtic, and he said, what are

you doing here? She I'm married to Cheryl Samberg and they both started laugh which was so funny. They're very accomplished in their own right, by the way. But you know, I don't think i've heard anybody Sheryl ever say an unkind word about Dave. What were the qualities that made him so special and so beloved by so many and most of all you, I mean, Dave. Dave was amazing. He was brilliant and funny. But I think the reason he is and was so beloved is he was really generous.

At the funeral, I've never seen this done. Our friend Zander stood up in his eulogy and looked at the crowd and said, how many people here had their life changed by Dave coltwork and like all these hands went up. See of hands. And to this day I meet people not every month, every week who will say not I met your husband. He said something interesting, It was Dave changed my life and here's how, And he really did. He went out of his way for so many people.

He was so generous with his he gave such good advice. Mark Zuckerberg said this of him. Mark said that some people are generous and want to give a lot of advice, and some people give really good advice. But very rarely do those two things come together because the people who can give the really good advice don't of the time to give a lot of it. And he said Dave was unique because Dave gave incredible advice and would put

incredible amounts of time in it. And so a lot of people have asked me, you know, kind of why why are you writing a book on grief and talking about this. I know I'm doing this, and I'm doing this because if Dave Goldberg were alive just in the last two years, he would have helped so many people because he did it all the time. And so if option B can help anyone else, even one person face adversity and find resilience. It extends Dave Goldberg's life because

nothing could honor his legacymore. We're going to take a quick break now, but we'll be back with more from Chryl Sandberg and Adam Grant right after this. And now back to our interview with Sheryl Sandberg and Adam Grant. What motivated you to post that incredible, doubly personal Facebook post and really sharing with people in a way Cheryl that I don't think, you know, many people would feel comfortable sharing. Um, it was extraordinary, But tell me about

the thought process that went into that. It was approaching the thirty day mark after the burial, which in the Jewish tradition is shallow shame. It's the Jewish period of morning for a spouse, So it was supposed to be over, and I couldn't feel less like it was over. And it wasn't just the grief, but it was the isolation,

you know. I used to drop my kids off at school and everyone would say hi, and I'd walk into work and everyone chit chat, and after Dave died, most of that was fun because I think people were so afraid to say the wrong thing, that they didn't say anything at all, and you know, rooms were quiet when I walked in, and you could see the quiet around me in the school, you know, kid kid drop offline. And so I had been journaling, and so I wrote a post which was what I would say if I

would say something. And I went to sleep the night before thinking there's zero chance on posting this. This is a way too way too personal. And I woke up the next morning and it was so bad that I thought this can't get that worse and it might get better. And even then I realized I work at Facebook, and I realized I posted it publicly. I didn't really realize how public it would be. I felt like, I know, I knew I was posting it publicly. I just didn't

think so many people would pay attention. I thought the people who would read it were the people who worked at Facebook, the people were walking by me and not saying hi anymore, and the people at the school. They would read it. That's why I was posting it publicly, not just to my friends. I didn't realize like a lot of strangers and news media and stuff would write

about it. I know, we're not always that smart, but I was speaking to the people I was going through my life interacting with, and it really helped, despite how broad it was, and that was uncomfortable at the time. Um a friend of mine at work told me that she had been driving by my house and not coming in for a month, almost every day, and she started

coming in strangers. A woman posted from the Niku that she had just lost one of two twins and she was finding the strength inside her to give the surviving twin of great life. And another woman said, I lost one of two twins. Do you want to talk? And it definitely did not take away any of the grief, but it changed the isolation, and it really changed it in very deep ways. Everyone started talking to me again. People would say how are you today? Even strangers I

passed would say how are you today? And while I didn't mean to do it that broadly, I'm so glad I did because it really changed it for me. I took away the horror of the isolation. Let's talk about that, about the fact that when people are suffering or dealing with tragedy or faith themselves are sick. Because I think Jay had this experience, he said, being sick like this is the loneliest experience in the world. But also if

you lose someone, people feel very uncomfortable. So, Cheryl, you learned firsthand about the different approaches that you shouldn't do. So why don't you talk about the things that people said or did that made you feel lonely or and more isolated? Because I think this is such an important

conversation because I think so many of us now. I don't feel this way because I've been through it, but a lot of people just don't feel comfortable with death or grieving or loss and it I think it reminds them of their own mortality, honestly, and they just really want to keep it at arms length. So let's talk about first what people did that they shouldn't do, and

then we'll talk about what people can do. Right. I did an interview for the book that's coming out in print in in a few days, and the first reporter first question she asked me, she said, so everyone dies, and everyone knows someone who dies, yet we never we don't know how to talk about death. Why it's like such a good question, I don't know. But it's not just death. You want to silence a room, get diagnosed with cancer, lose a job, go to prison, have your

father go to prison. Any of these things. They ussered this you would elephant kind of walking behind us. And we don't know what to say, so often we say nothing at all. So the most important, one of the most important things, is acknowledge the pain. And I got this wrong before. I used to think if someone was going through something hard, the first time I saw them, I would say I'm sorry, and then I would never bring it up again, because you know they should bring

it up if they wanted to talk. Right, you're afraid you're going to hurt them or re traumatize. Right, I'm going to remind them. You can't remind me Dave died to this day, you can't remind me if you say I'm sorry, if you're a loss, I'm not like, oh, Dave died, I forgot. I didn't forget. I know that. And so when people didn't acknowledge it, so much better

thing to say was I know you're hurting. You may or may not want to talk, but I know you're hurting, even the second time you see me, or the third month or the second year. Your kids were seven and ten when Dave died. I know you flew home from Mexico. You write about it in the book and it's a gut wrenching and heartbreaking seeing. How could it not be when you have to tell your kids that their dad has died. So, I mean you had to do that too. Yeah, but Ellie was six and Carrie was too, so it's

a little different. You know, every situation is different. But yes I did, I did have to do that. But you know, there was something that they said that night when you were tucking them in, that each of them at separate times, I guess during the course of the day that took your breath away and gave you incredible hope for them. Tell us what those were. I mean, telling your children they will not see their father again is horrific. People have asked what was the worst moment

of your life? There are many contenders for that prize, but this might be it. Um. Carol Geitner is here tonight, and that's her job, is to counsel grieving children. So I had the great, unbelievable fortune of knowing someone who could help me, and she told me what to say, and I tried to follow her advice. Um, and Thank god I did, because I would just have completely not been prepared. Um. But then my son said, thank you

for coming home to tell me yourself. And when I was putting my daughter to bed that night, she said, I'm not just sad for us, I'm sad for Grandma Paula and Uncle Rob because they lost them too. I thought to myself, I have a seven and a ten year old who have just been told they will never see their father again. So it is the worst time of their lives, hopefully, and they can think of anyone else.

They are actually capable of thanking me or thinking of their grandma and their uncle, and that gave me so much hope. And in the really hard moments that followed, and there were many, I tried to remember that, and I didn't always. I can't say I did. You know. When they would cry, I would fast forward. You know. My son would be crying that his father wasn't going to basketball, and I would remember he would never go

to basketball again. My daughter would cry that all the other fathers were at soccer, and I would know he would never be there again. But when I could coming back to the fact that they could think of other people gave me a lot of hope. We always hear Adam that children are incredibly resilient when it comes to loss or hardship and setbacks. So how can how were you able to help Cheryl help her kids? And how can we all help kids sort of exercise that resiliency

muscle if you will. But I don't know that it helped. But one of the things that we we talked about a lot is this idea of mattering that kids need to know first and foremost is that they matter, and mattering his three components. It's basically knowing that other people notice you, care about you, and rely on you. And this is something that I think we all try to

do with with our children as parents everyday. But it becomes even more important in the face of tragedy and adversity because you know, they just lost somebody who was at the center of their world. You know, we we talked about what can you do to make sure that your kids still know how much you care about them, but also that you're relying on them right that you're gonna work through this together. And Cheryl had I thought

an amazing idea to create family rules to help with this. Yeah, my kids and I following advice Carol had given me. We meet family rules there and Marker, they still hang up there and in all of the rules. Respecting your feelings. It's okay to be angry, It's okay to be happy. It's okay to be jealous of other kids who still have fathers. Um was you can ask for help. Teaching kids that they are not going through it alone, that we are going through it together is so important. And

it's not just important in trauma. This is important every single day as we teach our kids to try to grow up and face whatever adversity they will face. You talk about post traumatic growth, which is an expression I've never heard, which I really love. And how are they doing now? And are the sad moments a lot more and frequent than they were? I've definitely compared to the beginning crying and the screaming. I mean, we couldn't get through an hour. Um. Post traumatic growth is how we

go through trauma and we grow. There are ways in which we grow, and one of them is that we gain perspective. The other day, a few weeks ago, my son's basketball team lost the playoffs, and you know, a lot of the little boys were upset. A couple were crying and I looked at my son, I said, are you okay? And he goes a mom, this is sixth grade basketball. I'm fine. They don't know now. Do I want him to have that perspective? Noe? But is it perspective? Yes?

And being able to celebrate the good and keep the bad in perspective is a very, very valuable lesson. And we've talked a lot, not just about post traumatic growth, but about pre traumatic growth. And this is why we wrote this book so it can we take the lessons that people do learn in trauma and give them to people who don't face the trauma. So gratitude. So it is the most counterintuitive thing in the world to lose

your husband and feel more grateful. I thought I should look for positive thoughts, and one day Adam looked at me and said, you should think about how things could be worse. Now. Adam is literally one of the most brilliant people I've ever met, but I looked at him like, you are a total idiot. My husband just died and nothing could be worse. And he said, well, Dave could have had that cardiac arrhythmia driving your children and in that moment, I said up, I'm like, I'm good, kids

are alive, I'm fine. Like I literally was like, I'm okay. And the question is can we appreciate life? What would I do to give one day and go back and live it with Dave. How would I appreciate that day? I can't have that, but I can appreciate this day. I can appreciate your friendship and Adam's friendship and that

we're all here talking about this. My cousin, Laura, lives in New York and she turned fifty on Valentine's Day and I called her and I said, Laura, I'm calling to say happy birthday, but I'm also calling to say in case you woke up with that, Oh my god, I'm fifty thing right? How many people have done that in your life? Oh my god, I'm turning older? I said to her and said, this is the year day of Goldberg won't turn fifty. Turns out there's two choices,

two options. We grow older or we don't. I will never make another joke about growing old again. And if anyone makes it in my presence, even if I don't know them, I kind of turned around, like, don't say that, because it is a gift, and I appreciate life in a way I never did before this happened. And the question is can people do that who haven't experienced the trauma,

and we believe they can. Let's talk about confidence, because I know, you know, I think probably you're one of the most confident people I know, but you're offidence was shaken after J after Jay, after Dave died. Um. Why why do you think that was the case? Is that sort of because you're a classic overachiever and you didn't

feel like you were doing grief? Well? No, I mean it was actually one of the more surprising things that happened is that, you know, I had not experienced grief, but I had read about it, So when the anger came, I wasn't shocked, even though more of it came than I would have expected. When the sadness came, at least I had heard of that. But what totally surprised me is it completely destroyed my confidence in every other aspect. And I wrote lean in. I had like studied confidence

at work. I was supposed to understand it, but you know, I went back to work and I could barely get through a meeting without crying. So how could I do my job? And I had two children parenting as hard before this when I had a great supportive partner, and I don't have the financial challenges so many single moms have. But being a single mother of two grieving children, I had no experience with this was was hard. And what I really is is that you know, Mark Zuckerberg did this.

What I needed to build up my confidence wasn't just permission to be a mess, but also reassurance that sometimes I wasn't. So when someone at worked before was going through something hard, what I would say to them is, just take the pressure off. You need time off. Can we take that project off you? Oh? Of course, you can't think straight with everything you're going through. I did that all with good intentions, but on the other side, when people said that to me, it was proof that

I absolutely couldn't do my job. Mark did you don't have to come in if you don't want to take the time you want. But I think you made a good point in that meeting. There's no way I made a good point in that meeting. Trust me that it was the kindest thing, and you did it over and over. In other words, you're needed here and that made you

feel so much better. So now when people are going through things that are hard, and when you look, it's everywhere, I both give them time off, but if they're there, I go out of my way. If they do anything that I can praise, I praise it. You also are serious journal or or you're do journaling. I've never done journaling. I don't even like that word actually, but but but it is talented. It was incredibly helpful to you through this this horrible time. But right, I mean it was

a gift. Tell me why it was so important, Adam, and why you recommend what I never do. Well, Look, when when most of us sit down to journal, we you know, we do it for a few minutes and then we kind of get bored and we move on. When Show Sandberg sits down to write a journal, it's a hundred thousand words. But I think that you know, the the impulse to journal, which which a lot of people have during intense experiences, turns out to be a

really healthy one. Um. There are hundreds of experiments showing that if you even just write a few times for fifteen minutes each about a traumatic experience, that in the short run, in the next few days, you will feel worse because it is not fun to relive tragedy. But in the weeks and months that follow, not only does your happiness improve, but also your physical health tends to increase.

It also can help with with forming a story right, finding some coherence, and saying, look, i may never feel this happen for a reason, but I'm going to use this experience to find a reason to keep living and to find a deeper sense of purpose. And charl I thought that was a theme that came through. And a lot of your journal interests tell us about writing in that journal because I know it. First cheryld you said all you did was work, take care of the kids,

and write journal. Yeah. I always wanted to keep a journal. I have boxes of them. I would do five days after New Year's and that's it. But after Dave died, I I really I wrote, and I needed to write, and if I did not write for just a couple of days, I felt like I was gonna burst. And it was later when Adam and I started doing the research for the book that I saw the research that said how helpful that can be in processing emotions. And then people have asked if the book was hard to write.

The personal parts of the book were mostly written for my journal, so I didn't have to write them for the book. So writing the book itself was writing the stories of amazing people who have gone through other forms of hardship learning the research, and that part was really cathartic. You also have a chapter called uh I think it's taking that joy? Is that the name of the chapter? And and Cheryl, you tell a very poignant story. I think we can all kind of put ourselves in your

shoes in some ways. Where you were at at a botto mitzvah, a childhood the daughter of a childhood friend, and a certain song came on and there was a certain high school crush there and tell us what happened next. So it's that four months after Dave died and a friend and I went on to the dance floor and I danced and like a minute later I just burst into tears. You have to say what song it was? It was September by Earphone and fire, which I know

makes me a little I think it creates them, creates them. Yeah, but I literally kind of collapsed and he had to kind of take me outside, and I couldn't figure out what was wrong. And what I realized was, oh my god, I was happy for one minute, and then I just felt so guilty. How can I be happy? Even those four months later when Dave was on And what I realized was that I needed permission. My brother in law called me right around then with tears in his voice.

He was crying on the phone, and he said, all Day've ever wanted was for you and your children to be happy. Don't take that away from him and death.

And I think that when we think about being there for people, and a lot of this book is about what we do for other people who are going through adversity, we think about holding them while they cry, bringing dinner to the hospital, but we forget the other side, helping them come back to work and build up their confidence, giving them permission and experiences that are joyful because we all deserve those, and we are hoping that option be

gives people permission to feel joy, no matter what's happened to them, no matter what mistakes they've made, no matter what life has handed them. That on the other side,

there's laughter, there's friendship. There are moments when we can feel joy and we can notice those and live those and I think, you know, some of finding joy again was actually taking back things that were joyful before um And actually, Charlott, I learned so much from this the way that you said, look, here are the things that you know that that we used to do with Dave

that made us happy, and we're not going to lose those. Yeah, we decided after I realized, you know, I think when we think about happiness, we think about the big stuff. We're gonna get a promotion, have a baby, take a big trip. Happiness. Adam taught me this. It's the little things every day and noticing them. And so after this experience where I realized this, I started taking things back. We started cheering for the Warriors again. Dave and I and our family we played Settlers of Katan a lot.

Everyone in Silicon Valley does. People out here may not, but if you don't, you should. But Dave and I had been playing the last time I saw him, and so that was put away, and I took the board out without saying that my kids and said who wants to play? And they all said they did, and then U we took out the pieces and Dave was always gray and my daughter took gray, and my son said, you can't be gray. Daddy was great, and I said,

yes we can. She wants to be gray. We do that in Dave's honor, and I realized watching TV playing scrabble, these were the things I did with Dave that brought me joy. And I wasn't doing any of them because they were going to remind me of David. So I took them back one by one. You also write, Cheryld that that humor is the third rail of grief, and that again you've fell a little guilty, but that at times, even early on, humor was so helpful to you, even

the day of Jay's God I cot Dave's funeral. Sorry, it's okay, Sorry, there's actually something. There's a sort of weird, isn't it that I actually think it's meaningful that you're saying that, because I think we all live these experiences over I find it very touching. Okay, thank you, UM that the day of Dave support a good well you are, UM. And also he told told a funny story about when UM, I think your sister in law, you all were upstairs in your room crying, and then you made a joke.

You guys had very different tastes in movies and television. I thank you and Dave, So what did you say to your sister? I said, well, at least I don't have to watch Dave's bad TV anymore. And then I gasped. And actually the first joke I made, Adam reminded me I made it because I guess he heard you made it. A friend of mine walked in. He was an ex boyfriend who now dates men, married a man, and he walked in and I said, well, this is your fault. You were supposed to be straight, we were supposed to

get married and none of this would have happened. And gasped both of us. It is a really good joke, right, But I gasped because joking. But you know what, There's a reason people tell jokes at funerals, and now I know what it is, which is that that joke gives us that one minute of release. And again, we want Option B to give people not just permission to grief

and support in grieving, but permission to laugh. Let's talk about let me take some of the questions, because I think some of the questions I had are being asked by people in the audience. Um, you talk a lot about the need for quality partnership as a career woman and mom and lean in. How is your thinking and reality changed on this since Dave passed, especially as it relates to your working life. Yeah, I really did think

about this. I wrote about different forms of family and lean in, but I also wrote a whole chapter called make your Partner a Real partner. And once I lost Dave, I thought about how that must have been super hard to read if you didn't have a partner. In fact, you write in the book, I just didn't get it.

I didn't get it, and I did a post on this and that one I knew I was doing publicly, and I wanted to do very publicly for Mother's Day where I said I didn't get this and we need to do better for single mothers, single mothers in this country living poverty, if you're Black or Latina, people do

not get the support they need. And understanding that Father's Day is hard for people around you, Understanding that someone doesn't have someone to go to the father daughter dances with from the very basics of the education and the healthcare and the food. Huge numbers of people. You've worked on this, and I've worked on this have food and security in this in this country, the basics to the kind of emotional support. I don't think I understood this

fully and I wanted to publicly apologize. Um, you mentioned a single mother, and you know you are a single mother, and obviously a lot of your your focus has been on being a good mother. But also I think you're very much like I am, Cheryl. You your parents are lovely, they're here tonight, happily married, had been married a long time, and you're you're what we call the marrying kind, just like me. And uh, well, I mean I wanted to be Mary. It took me a long time. But this

is not about me. So but tell me about how you That is very tricky. And I think whether you're divorced or uh you're a widow or even a widower, and you have children, young children, that is very tough to navigate. So and you you write about how women are often judged a lot more harshly than men when they start to kind of go there. Tell us about how you made these decisions and how you were able to help your kids kind of deal with that, because

that's another adjustment that's really tough. Yeah, you know, when people date after losing a spouse, it's worth remembering it's not a choice they made. I know who I wanted to spend my life with, and I don't have that choice.

I was lucky. The people that talk to me about it were actually my mother in law brother in law, both of whom said, we want this for you, but can you dis er Jeck cheryld this the passage about your mother in law, Paula, when you finally have the courage to go through Dave's closet and you found a particularly kind of ratty sweater that he used to wear a lot, a gray sweater, And I thought this exchange was so I just I don't know your mother in law,

but I love her anyway, tell us about the conversations. Incredible. So my mother in law, Paula had lost her husband sixteen years before, she lost one of her two sons. And if anyone who's ever been through this, and we've talked about this, the cleaning out of the closet is just one of those things we dread it, we put it off. Some of us do it sooner, some of us do it later. I did it a couple of months in where I just could not walk by that

stuff anymore. Um, I did it with my mother in law and brother in law and I broke down in that closet and I looked at her and I said, how are you okay? How are you okay? This is your second closet And she said, I am and I'm I did not die, she said, melded and Dave did. But I am alive and I will live. And she lives a very full life. She runs a nonprofit, She has friends, she travels. She's with my kids this week and they love being with her. And that is the lesson,

the lesson of she knows that she didn't die. She didn't just say though. She said, I'm alive, and you're alive, and you will remarry. She said that, She said one day you'll remarry, and I will be there. And it was permission to date. And I didn't do it for months and months and months. I mean it was a way early, but the fact that it came from her,

but she lost someone. And I think again, as we think about supporting people, we dry their tears, we help them get through the hard stuff, but give them permission and support to date, particularly if they're a woman and they want to help them find laughter, even if it's about death. These are the things that make us human. These are the moments where we find our humanity and we find the joy. I knew early on. People told me that, and you told me this, that children feel guilty.

Children feel guilty was one of the things Carol Geitner said when they've lost a parent, they feel guilty being happy. So I told my kids right away it was in our family rules. Daddy would want you to be happy, but it's hard to give that permission to yourself. On what would have been Dave's birthday, after he died, I went to his grave with um, my siblings and my parents and Paula and I just looked at the grave and it was such the most obvious, basic lesson. But

we are all headed there. Absolutely, we all die. And as I looked at all the tombstones, Jewish graves tend to be pretty crowded, so you can see the dates all there. Um, you know, some were young, some of the some were older, and those different has almost seemed not as significant, But you have that feeling of I only have so many days left, and I hope everyone here walks out of here and just lives a little bit more. I always say everyone's terminal and a lovely

positive thought. Um, I'm just looking through some other audience questions. Um, oh, do you think women are judged more harshly when they move on after a loss? I know that online they had some few choice words for you when word got out that you were seeing someone. And I know that you brought a date to a family wedding and somebody at the wedding said, I'm so glad you're finally over Dave's death. Yeah. I think one of the biggest lessons for me is that all of these things exists together.

You can love someone after they you still love Jay, I still love Dave, I always will. You can have children who play one minute and cry and next that because of the joy, we have the sadness. Because of the sadness, we have the joy, and we actually wouldn't have one without the other. So, yes, we are all terminal, and in knowing that our lives are limited is where we can try to live each day to its fullest.

How does this was a question I actually asked you both on the phone, and someone healthily from the audience asked it, Um, how does the shocking death like Dave's, differ from a loss that's anticipated anticipated due to illness. For example, Well, we have two living examples of those situations. My husband was diagnosed with cancer and died nine months later, and you can imagine how excruciating that was, but not shocking.

Yours was shocking and excruciating. Um. But but how do people manage these different situa rations and how how are they different? Kitty, I I'd like to hear you come in a little bit more on what your experience was like I will say, you know, people assume that it's going to be easier when you have time to say goodbye, and it's very often not the case. You never really

want to say goodbye to someone you love. And yes, it's true that the shock and the immediate despair might be less when you had a chance to prepare for it, but more often than not, nothing can you really prepare you for what it's like to have someone you love gone forever. And so I actually think that the two end up being much more similar than than people let on.

But what would your take be? Well, I mean, I think they're both horrendous and horrific, and I think that I mean for me, I was living with a vice around my heart for nine months and taking care of my kids. But I think I relate so much to so much you know of the things that Cheryl writes in this book, but it is excruciating, lee painful to see someone you love, uh, you know, waste away and get sicker and sicker. And I know Jay said to me this is no way to live. And so that

has its own form of heartbreak. I think, Uh, someone wrote thank you for being here and for the candid conversation. Her question is how has been vulnerable, honest and open with friends helped in this process? What end really with everyone, Cheryl, not just your friends? What has it changed or taught you? I mean, the most important thing this has done for me is one of the ways we have post traumatic growth is we find meaning and doing this and forming.

We formed option be dot org. If people want to come check it out. It's a community. There are already lots of people in it. We launched last week um in groups around grief and loss and hate and violence and sexual solve and divorce and trying to find ways to do good. And I'm not the only person I did. Is you work on cancer for a reason. Right, You've raised so much money and so much awareness. I remember your colonoscopy on TV. No, I'm serious, thank you, but

that was before whelm you. But no, let's talk about that. That was incredibly brave and what you did has got a whole lot of people to go. You were trying to save lives and you were hurting where you were hurt. Um. A friend of my mom's, her son died by suicide a few years ago, and she joined one of the groups on option b dot org and she found herself connected to a man who was thinking of committing suicide,

and she felt like she really helped him. And she said, it's the very first time she feels like anything good has come from her son's staff. And so I think we try to find meaning. And these option B groups that you're establishing really kind of like the lean in community in a way. You're you're trying to connect people to help each other. Is that the primary goal of of what you're going to do beyond the book itself? Yeah, The idea is if you got option be dot org,

there's resources, educational materials. Adam and a whole bunch of experts did a great job curating stuff that might help, but also helping people join groups where they can connect connect with each other around these issues. And it is trying to kick lots of elephants out of lots of rooms, and we want to help bring people together to support

each other. I think the overwhelming message of this book is we're a lot more resilient than we think we are, but there are things that we can do for ourselves and for other people who are hurting that will really allow that resilience to bloom. Is that an accurate sort of description of it. I wish we had written it. You can you can steal that. I think it's a

beautiful description. And yeah, I mean I think we we walked away just amazed by the capacity of the human spirit to persevere, and you know, we wanted to try to explain to people how that happens and how we can help others do it well. Since earlier I asked you about Dave. When John and I read the book, he mentioned the conclusion to your eulogy to Dave, which was just so wonderful, and I think it encapsulates all the qualities that you really need to become whole and

healthy again. Um, and so I asked you if you would mind reading it sort of as we close, because I think it's nice to remember, Dave, and Um, I think the message really reflects what you were trying to say in this book. So are you okay? I'm gonna try. Katie mentioned this right before, so I'm in it. You got reading glasses, not yet, I will. It's close. You'll notice, I'm not going to hold the book here here, um says the end of the book. And this is uh my eulogy. The end of my eulogy, Dave. I have

a few promises I make to you today. I promise I will raise your children as Vikings fans, even though I know nothing about football and I'm pretty sure that team never wins. I promised to take them to Warriors games and pay attention enough to cheer only when the Warriors score. I promised to let our son continue to play online poker, even though you let him start at eight years old, and most fathers would have discussed with the mother whether it was appropriate for such a young

child to play online poker in the first place. And to our daughter, when you are eight, but not one minute before, you can play online poker too. Dave, I promised to raise your children so that they know who you were, and everyone here can help me do that by sharing your stories with us, and Dave, I will raise your children so that they know what you wanted for them, and that you love them more than anything

in the world. Dave, I promised to try to live a life that would make you proud, A life of doing my best, being the friends you were to our friends, following your example, and trying to make the world a better place, and always but always cherishing your memory and loving our family. Today we will put the love of my life to rest, but we will bury only his body. His spirit, his soul. His amazing ability to give is

still with all of us. I feel it in the stories people are sharing of how he touched their lives. I see it in the eyes of our family and friends, and above all, it is in the spirit and resilience of our children. Things will never be the same, but the world is better for the years. Dave Goldberg lift Well, I was gonna say, Cheryl, I don't know how well you're doing on the Vikings and warriors part, but I think you're doing pretty damn well on all those other things.

Cheryl and Adam, thank you both so much for coming to the ninety swo Straight Wine talking to Yah. We'd like to say a big thank you to the ninety two Street Why for hosting this episode's conversation. Thanks to Gianna Palmer the lovely and talent to Gianna Palmer for producing this show and I have to say everybody's lovely, did Jared O'Connell, who's hot and studley for mixing and engineering, and Nora Richie who's charming and lightsome livesome. Isn't that

a word for additional production assistance. Thanks also to our social media maven Alison Bresnick, and to the Ivory soap Girl Emily Beana for her part in producing the show. If you all saw Emily, you would say it does look like an Ivory girl. And Mark Phillips thank you as always for our fantastic and addictive theme music available on iTunes. No, actually it's not available on iTunes. I'd give it a ninety five for dancing though. Katie Kurrik

and I are the executive producers of the show. And remember you can also email us at comment at Currek podcast dot com. Find us on social media. Katie is at Katie Kirk on Twitter and Instagram with like a basilion followers. I'm at Goldsmith b with like dozens of very excited many relatives who enjoy reading my tweets. Katie's also on Snapchat at Katie dot curric. I don't do Snapchat because I'm not as young and gruby as Katie is.

Best of all, you can rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, not iTunes anymore, but Apple Podcasts, So don't forget to subscribe and we'll talk to you next time. Lata