Sheila Nevins: TV Trailblazer

know how my business cards say badass. I think Sheila nevans business card should say f O n Force of Nature. She is quite a character, isn't she. She's amazing and as you said, not just a great writer, but a really interesting, insightful, soulful talker, one of the best I'd ever heard. Sheila came by to talk about a book she's written, really a book of essays about her life called You Don't Look Your Age and Other fairy Tales.

And I think that title is very emblematic of the tone of this book, Brian, because it's sort of a funny romp through her personal and professional life. And she has had such an interesting life, much of it spent doing documentaries. And I know you love documentaries as much as I do, Brian. Yeah, And I don't even have time to watch half the documentaries that are coming out

these days. There's such a glood of them. But when I think about the best documentaries, I often think about what's on HBO, like Going Clear about Scientology or the Jinks in which Robert just basically confessed to multiple murders on film. I mean, it was just unbelievable. Citizen for

about Edward Snowdon. So it was great to hear from her about her perspective on that business and about the lessons that she's learned over the course of her of her long like she's seventy eight years old, and I think, in many ways is a microcosm of the feminist movement, and her stories are so I think, intensely personal and really reflect the times uh that she was living in and that we continue to live in, and painfully honest by the way she talks about getting an illegal abortion,

she talks about having a facelift, she talks about how her mother doesn't really love her, she talks about her handicapped son, She she touches so many hot buttons and a lot of topics that I think most writers avoid. We've talked to so many fascinating people, Brian, but I think this is one of my favorites. So I hope you all enjoy hearing from Sheila Nevin's as much as

we enjoyed talking to her. Sheila, what has it been like for you to share really very intensely personal stories with a mass audience of people who don't really know you and don't necessarily know your history or anything about you. Has it been weird? It's been um very strange to be public, because I've dealt my whole life with people who are public or stories that are public, but I've

never really been public. Not that I'm public that you know, I can film medicine, square Garden, don't get me wrong, but it's really odd. It's very odd to sort of be anonymously personal or personal anonymously, and I'm not sure I enjoy it. It makes me think, in a very small way, what celebrity must be like. Not that I am a celebrity, but how incredibly the encroachment of the lack of oxygen when you're just trying to sell a book. You know, who wants to talk? I don't want to talking.

It's not something I would repeat. I really no, I would never do it again. Really, And what what it been? Well, first of all, I don't have any other stories left. I told them all. And second of all, I in joy anonimity. I didn't know I enjoyed it, um, but I didn't have it until well, I don't I actually have it. I mean, I can go to the supermarket, it's okay. But what I mean is it I don't enjoy the tiny little bit of celebrity that a book brings. I don't enjoy it. I don't enjoy it. I'm surprised

by it. And you know, it's so late in my life that I would have that. But it's I see why I have hid from it for so long. And so if you didn't want attention and you didn't want recognition, what motivated you to to write this? I'm told stories, you know, I think I I said in the beginning, I had spent so much of my life, or have spent so much of my life asking people their stories that I thought it was time to write mine. But

I'm not sure that's totally accurate. I think it was like there were things that I had experienced, things that I knew, things that I I you know, that I hadn't told, things that I wanted to talk about. And I thought it seemed like one of the steps want to take on the way to eternity. And I thought, what the hell, I'll write a book. What was the hardest?

You know? I mean, I really loved your unflinching honesty, whether you're talking about sort of quiet moments that are shared experience but never discussed, or talking about your decision to get a facelift with such humor and candor and something that women are never usually willing to talk about. Um. But when when you sat down in front of your computer, Sheila and said, I'm going to write a chapter on blank, what was the hardest blank you had to tackle? Nothing

was hard? Nothing nothing was hard because I've heard so many people tell me their stories for so long that I think I I was, you know, it's sort of like bursting at the seems to tell it. No, nothing was hard. If it had been hard, I probably wouldn't have written it. Um. It was easy to say what was true, and it was easy to say what I was thinking, and I didn't really care about judgment. I've been around too long. What I didn't expect was personal judgment.

You know, I expect to feel like it, they won't like it. I didn't think someone's gonna say, well, you are fat, or they would say, um, you look your age, or I would get these these horrible you know Instagram Twitter responses that were like attacks. I didn't know. I didn't expect that. Welcome to my world. Oh it's horrible. How do you tolerate it? I block a lot of them? Yeah, and uh, it is, actually, sweetheart, it's so psychically depleting, depleting and really hard. It is hard. It is hard,

and you're like wow. And also, why would someone say something like why did they care enough to say I read two pages and I was so bored, don't waste

your money? Why would they say that? First of all, the first two pages, I probably would have closed the book too, But give the book a shot, you know, And then they're a lot, you know, keep it to yourself, and it's just you feel because I think it's easier to criticize than it is to congratulate anonymously, and that's what social media gives you anonymity, and I think that anonymity allows the devil to come out in some way. UM, because I don't think those people would face me and

say those things. It's very disturbing, But most of the stuff is very favorable. I'm just the kind of person who remembers the stuff that isn't favorable. That's my treasure drove of punches. I like those. I stepping back a little bit. I'm sorry to interrupt. You go ahead, and one always interrupts me. I never stopped talking. So can we back up for a second and talk a little bit about your about your personal story for people who

don't have the context. One of the major facts of your life is that your mother suffered from this disease which I had never heard of before, called ray nodes, which affects circulation, and ultimately she had a leg and arm and three fingers amputated. How did that affect your childhood and your perception of yourself growing up? Well, these things were gradual, So it started with fingers, and you know, so I would have all sorts of I always have manicures to this day. Um. If I chip a nail,

I get very anxious. Um. But it started with fingers, So I've always had a finger thing. I've always been able to look at people's hands and see how tired they are, you know, see if they're chipped. Let me see your fingers. Yeah you're tired. Did you cut your finger on that? Hid? I actually bit my cuticle off, and I bite my nails. You do, yeah? You know,

I feel like it's so interesting. Well, can I just say, Sheila dear listeners has beautiful hands and perfectly manicured fingernails, And you know, I feel like nobody looks at people's hands. I look at hands all the time because my mother didn't. Because the first thing I experienced was, you know, the tip of her finger coming off. It would get black and it would really smell badly and it would literally chip off and it wouldn't ever get that couldn't heal

because there was no circulation. It's a disease of circulation in your extremities and it starts to you know, it's kind of a circulatory leprosy in its most severe cases,

but it depends how serious. And obviously hers was very serim serious and um from about the time I was ten of eleven, she started having smaller amputations, you know, the tip of a finger, and I was very embarrassed about it because you know, there was like that nobby end of a finger and I always hate to remember that took her hand at, you know, hand out, or took it out of gloves, and then it was another finger, and then you know it was it just kept going.

It was like it was just horrifying you. I want to interrupt for two seconds, because, um, you have a whole constellation of people who for the audio version of this book, she'lla read your essays, and I was very flattered to be among them. But Meryl, Meryl reads an essay that your mom, let's play it. Our sandwiches came and the perfect coffee, hot on a hot day, but perfectly so. Mom rested her stump on the counter. Her shortened arm was heavy to lift and too short to

hide below the counter. Suddenly, from the other side of the s shaped counter, a middle aged woman with a kinky permed bob and harlequined glasses, who was fanning herself with a newspaper, yelled out, please, ladies, I'm eating. It's rude to expose that arm. It makes me want to throw up. That's what she said. Do you remember how you felt when that happened. You know, the thing about someone is brilliant and genius in one of a kind,

as Meryl Streep is it. She sounded like my mother when she read it, and it was, you know, not a woo woo kind of person. But I have to say it freaked me out when she read it because I wrote it without crying. I rewrote it many times without crying, but when Meryl Street read it, I cried. It was something in the way that she read it that she sounded like my mother. She just sounded like it. And I felt that I was in chock full of

nuts and that I was They're all over again. And I guess that's the genius of great acting, which is that you immerse yourself and roll so much. But I was almost afraid to say goodbye to her after the record session was over, because I felt that we were very intimately engaged, and yet I don't really know her

that well. So it's a very strange experience. But I do remember that it was so many years ago, but I remember being terrified that the woman would beat me up or hurt me, which was a very I think in retrospect a sort of a normal reaction, because she was so hostile and the arm was such an affront to her that I felt that she was going to hurt us, hurt me, not that I hadn't already been hurt by the amputation itself. But um, I remember it, you know, I remember it, especially when I hear that

little clip. I remember it. And yet you know it sounds like obviously it was very upsetting for you, but it did you feel protective of your mom in that instance? Because I think that no, I felt ashamed ashamed. I felt ashamed, and I have spent a lot of time thinking about that in my life, which has been a long one, which is, um, why was I ashamed of disability?

Maybe disability brings with it its own in addition to the imperfection of not having a particular limb or having some imperfection, it also brings a kind of embarrassment and not being like other people. And I hate that feeling. I hate that feeling of, you know, of of being ashamed of a disability rather than proud that you're surviving

with that disability. And so I think that I have worked very hard to be proud of difference and to assert difference, especially in docues, as something that is something to be to feel very strongly about that. To be like everybody else is not always the best thing in the world. And to survive and affliction is probably one of the great things of the world. And to say this is me. I don't have an arm you know, this is me. You know I have an illness. This is me. You know I can't see you, but I

can feel your presence. I think those are very important stories to tell, um, because everybody has a disability somewhere. Certainly the woman with the harlequin glasses was much more disabled than my mother as a human being, which I guess is the greatest disability at all. So you know, I do remember it and it influences me. It's interesting because your son Um had Tourette's um and you you write about that and his his childhood struggle. Rosie o'donnald

read this essay in the audio book. So let's listen to that and then we'll talk about it. Sheila, why does my do you do what I don't want it to do? He asked, So came the useless explanations that I deemed suitable for a now seven year old boy. A body sometimes misses up David. You know, then it gets better and the body's brain can be very, very very smart, or so I hoped that Jumble would explain it. You see, sometimes the body mixes up messages like getting

the wrong male. You're not make it sense, Mom, I wasn't making sense. I was there alone into et Land. I didn't really know the answer. How did your experience with your mom, Sheila sort of affect how you parented your son? It was interesting. I my mother was dead before my son arrived, and UM, I felt somehow that this was my role in life, that I was somehow

to be the caretaker of the wounded UM. Although David is certainly outgrown his true as at that particular point, from five till about ten, prepubescent, he had a very pretty severe case UM. But I felt as if I had gone from one caretaker to another caretaker. The difference was I always felt my mother had friends and adults and enough um help from the outside to leave me alone, Whereas I thought it was my role to take care of David lovingly and caringly, and it was the most

important thing in my life. And I didn't feel I thought, this is irony, right, I'm going from my mother to my son as a caretaker. But in one case it was obligatory, and in the other case it was out of you know, just sheer love and passion and sorrow and wanting him to be better. So it was, but it was a very strange confluence of of you know, sort of like a cutout doll. I was like cut out for caretaking. But I'm not taking care of you now. I have to say, I think you're a beautiful writer.

I love really and and you can see why because I think you're a beautiful speaker too. No, I really mean that, and I don't isn't it nice? So naturally, but if I close my eyes I can tell a story.

If I keep them open, I have a hard time. Well, when we come back, I want to talk more, and I know Brian's interested in this as well, about really your legendary career supporting and making documentaries and um, what it's been like to be a woman in this business all these years, something I'm particularly interested in as well. So we'll be back with more from Shell and Evans

right after this. We're back with Sheil and Evans, which is a real treat because you know, Sheila, you can be a sort of um modest and self effaced in as you want. But I think what what strikes people about this book is that you're writing about real stuff, right, So I think when things resonate with us and people can say, oh, I know what that feels like, or

I can relate to that. When you were at the Literary Partner's dinner and you were talking about your facelift, you know, I was thinking, Ship, you know, I kind of need a facelift. I need to. I don't know what I ever do that. I you know, I'm feeling like I'm getting older and less attractive, and it's a hard thing to to go through the whole thing to do. It's better both sides of it. I was what the facelift aging in general? No aging, I can tell you crappy.

But I would say that a facelift, I could say, if it makes you feel better, it's low risk, although it is risk. Ull surgery is risk. Do what if it makes you feel bit On the other hand, I would say it's a superficial, unnecessary thing. You haven't been hired as a rocket, you've been hired because you're bright and smart and make something happen, So just shut up and get old. So I I would say that there's there's two there are two people here, but I want

to be a rocket. I'm just kuddy. I don't there are openings at the ARP. That would be sad. That sounds like a really bad made for TV movie. Yes, definitely, but but but it was so funny hearing you talk about it. I can't be I can't, I can't what can I say? I can't endorse it because I endorse it because I did it. I can't endorse it because I'm not so proud that I did it. But I'm proud that I could talk about it and say, you know what a fool I am. You know, it's it's ridiculous,

ridiculous when you think about it. I mean, you know, a plastic surgery was really invented after Hiroshima when the Maidens came, and they really not exactly invented, but it became a profession which was repairing wounded faces, war faces, you know, tortured faces from you know, napem and and bombs and burns and um from it emerged this vanity sphere, which you know, it seems to be getting going down

to younger and younger people. Then came chemicals that could fill up holes, you know, botox, which was used for uh, you know, paralysis of certain ticks. Suddenly they thought, oh my god, not only does it stopped the tick, but it also make smooths out to wrinkle. So suddenly this whole industry, which I support readily and almost embarrassingly um emerged. But you know, I never said I was trying to think of an artful way of getting me out of this. Yeah,

there's no sege. I was trying to think of an artful segue about sleeping with your bosses. But I don't know how I can go from You didn't read it very carefully. It was a boss okay. In an interview, you said, I don't know that I slept my way to the top, but I didn't not sleep with my bosses plural in the early days when they wanted me.

And then the interviewer asked, and how is that different from sleeping your way at the top, if you slept with your bosses, this interview responded, there weren't that many. This was this was also in that CBS interview. Yeah, Jesus, she's really And so do you regret that or no? I don't regret. I don't regret anything. I mean, I'm you know what, am I going to regret that I slept with my boss? Didn't mean anything to me. It obviously meant a lot to him. He promoted me, So

you know I didn't demote him. I just paid no attention to him once he promoted me. So who lost him or me? But you talked about how you changed your view on this subject. I was interested very much by Glorious Dinham. But I'm not Glorious Dinham. I'm not as I'm much more superficial. But I actually didn't know there was another way. I really didn't know. I was pretty. I was young. I wanted to advance. All my bosses

were men. All my bosses at the l Drama School there were nine or ten people in the directing program, one as a woman, um, and the rest of you're all men. All my teachers were men. I I all my jobs were men. I never you know, I didn't have a woman boss. I didn't. I didn't even know what that was. Um, I didn't know women could be bosses. Until I got to children's television workshop and worked for Joan Cooney. But I didn't know. I just didn't know.

That's why this sort of lean forward, lean back, lean up. I'm not sure that I was born at a time when you could lean forward. I think had I leaned forward, I would have toppled right over. So maybe I leaned back. But I mean, bosses, I mean, I'm trying to count. It's certainly maybe three more likely to I think three playing around too for real? Is that fair? I don't know. Anyway, you can talk about going from Helen Helen Gurley Brown

to Gloria Steinham. So do you think today she left you were a young man trying to have a career, that that would have would ever cross your mind that, hey, you know, I'll do this if it's going to help me. I would like to say I wouldn't do it. I would like to be honest, but then again, I'm so honest. Um, I can't answer that because I'm not a young woman today.

But I wanted to succeed badly. And if those were the shots that were called, and I knew beforehand they were the shots, I'm not talking about someone coming in your office, throwing you on the ground, and you know, fucking you, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about a complicit kind of understanding that this is the step ladder. And you know, I don't really know. I don't know not saying what you think. A woman sits in a room and doesn't talk, a woman talks and gets interrupted.

Those are all forms of harassment, you know. I don't know. Do you think do you think things have changed a lot? Because I still see I don't think they've changed as much as we'd like to think they've changed. I don't. I simply don't think that, you know. I asked Gloria Steinham a couple of weeks ago, why are men so angry at us? What do we do wrong? And she she said, you have a womb, you know, And I thought, okay, well I'll think about that one for a while. You know.

But um, look, there are exceptions. There are the good men that we occasionally are lucky enough to marry or no or even work for. But they're the exception. Um, most men are sexists. Most men are extremely competitive with women who are ambitious and not necessarily kind. It's very strange. I really don't know what it is. Do you think some men are sexists and don't don't really realize that

they're sexists? Sort of this sort of question without question implicit bias or subconscious by carry around with them in their backpacks. Yes, and probably starts with their mother. May have something to do with sons and mothers, raying away from that mother, of being angry at her because you're still dependent on her in some way, and then you

take that into the workplace. I don't know. I'm not a psychiatrist, but it's certainly it's there you write about in your book at the moment in your career when you realize you're not being treated the same as your male colleagues. Lena Dunham read this, so let's take a listen. Somehow a male colleagues check had been put in my envelope with the same job title. I worked on even more shows per month than he did. The difference the amount on his check was twice mine. I steamed and

fretted and realized who I was. I was a woman in the early seventies. Were men worth more? All of this made me cry. All of this made me angry. I wanted a life. I wanted my colleagues check. I wanted that male power. I wanted to be equal. I wanted to play ball in a man's ballpark. This is part of your feminist awakening. As you put it, you makes me mad just hearing it. Can you imagine opening that envelope? Oh yeah, yeah, I can. Do you know how crazy I was when I opened it? I mean

I started screaming at the envelope. There was no one in my house at the time. I literally opened it. I saw his name on it, and I guess the two checks were stuck together, you know, because that was before there was a direct deposited, So it must have been that the paste from one envelope was stuck to the other because mine was right underneath it, so of course I could see mine and I could see his.

I'm not sure I knew exactly what mine was in relationships till I saw them laying right next to each other. I was beside myself, I mean beside myself and what happened. I tore his check up, and I um, I waited for the next clean moment. You know, everything is timing in life, really, unfortunately and fortunately, I guess if you have a good sense of it, and I, um, I waited till there was a kind of upheaval. And every job, every so often somebody gets toppled and somebody new comes in.

And when that happened, I went to the new person and and said I want to earn more money. I deserve more money. And I got I didn't have to sleep with him, and he was too late. I wasn't the sleeping kind anymore, were you afraid? I mean that takes a lot of guts, because I had another offer, you see, I think that was the main thing, which is that I had. Ironically, because things move around in media so much, one of my ex bosses was in another company and he said, why don't you come over here?

And that gave me the plus. The upheaval gave me the energy to say, well, if they don't do this, then I'm out of here. Um so I did it, But you know, I leaned forward instead of lying back. That should be my book lying back. When you think about last year's present financial campaign, do you think sexism played a big role in Hillary Clinton's defeat? Probably? Yeah, probably. I mean she may not have been the right candidate either.

I don't know that. I'm not politically that astute. But um, certainly maybe from a black president to a woman president was not a possibility in this country. I don't know that, because you know, I voted for her, stood in line for two hours, so I can't really answer. Um. But the person in front of me on the line was voting for Trump, and he was a banker, a nice young kids standing a lone, and we got to know each other because the line was so long on it,

you know, it's kind of around the blog. Did he say why he was voting for money? He said money. He wanted to earn more money. He wanted more money to flow into United States. He wanted there to be more jobs. He was in the import export banking. I really don't remember very much. Mostly we talked about movies, you know, and I tried to fix him up. But then I realized it was, you know, like twenty five. I didn't know anybody that age. So you're like, I am.

I'm always trying to make it people are. In fact, I was thinking I should have a match making service. That's a good idea because so many people asked me to fix them up with people. But let me, let me get back to movies. Because you have spent your life, well much of your professional life. Sheila focused on on making and as I said, supporting great documentaries. What what

makes a great documentary? When you're looking at all these now there's such a proliferation of them, Uh, what do you say, Like, is there a Is there a criteria? For me? There's a criteria. But that doesn't mean I don't work on other kinds of docums. I like, um people who emerge who you don't know when you start the document and at the end you feel as if

they're in your living room forever. UM. I like docums about people who have a hard time getting up and through the process of revelation or self revelation in the docu, are able to stand again, and that's a metaphor. UM. I like wounded people who punch back. To me. That makes a great documentary, whether it's in a nook or salesman or you know, Harlan County or whatever. I like people who are underdogs. UM. I don't like docums particularly,

I like to watch them. I don't like to work particularly on document about well known people or um celebrities in any particular field, although I do enjoy watching them. And I think they fall under the umbrella of docums. You're asking me how I define what is a pleasurable, satisfying, emotional work experience since it takes a big chunk out of your life, your work, if not your whole life. Um, I like the sort of resurrection of the common Man. That's my Oh, that's a good title. Nobody would read

that book. I like that title too. What is there one that I know? I hate when people ask me, like, your favorite interview? But I mean, what would certainly be this one? But but but but what is your favorite documentary? Is there one that you think, Wow, if like the first sentence of my obituary, if it mentioned this documentary, my obituary is going to say, um, New York Times best selling author, because I was on the best seller list list week Muscle Muzzle, Muzzle one week in a lifetime.

That's another good title. One week in a lifetime, isn't it? Yeah? But that's that that assumes you're only going to be on the list for one week and we're gonna be No. I think one week is fine. Um? What was I forgot? The question? Did you have one that can particularly resonated with you? Well? It's not mine. I love the documentary by Freedman and Epstein called The Life and Times of Harvey Milk because it was the beginning of the gay movement. Really,

Harvey Milk was. And I thought it was an extraordinary documentary that it was killed for being gay? Really um in San Francisco, and I thought it was an extraordinarily interesting documentary. UM. And you said, you're more interested in telling ordinary people's stories over celebrities, And you had so many of the HBO documentaries that stick in my mind are about famous people, like what like which one? Well, the Jerry Wintrobe documentary or the Robert Durst documentary wasn't

about Durst as much. It was a mystery. Wasn't really a celebrity? Do the kids stays in the picture? Was that an HBO bought it? And then the Snowden doc The Citizen Ford didn't you make that? Yeah, But you're using a different kind of word for celebrity. I also did Gloria Steinham. I don't consider that a celebrity doc. I consider that a movement doc with a celebrity person, you know, But Gloria can walk down the street and people won't know who she is. You know, Durst can

steal a sandwich in a supermarket. And you know we're not talking about you know, famous Hollywood, famous person. I guess what I'm thinking of is is a well known person is an entry point to raising broader issues and telling a bigger story. But you'll notice that those documents are in the last i'd say five to seven years, as the market has become much more, much more crowded, and the marketing of something has become so incredibly expensive

and difficult. So the more if you if you can get a semi celebrity to cut through the mass of stuff to tell a story, you're in You're in much better shape. But I still resist it. I mean, I still prefer living on the minimum wage, you know, I I still prefer that docum. I prefer a class divide about the Avenue School on one side and the Elliott Housing Project on the other. In the park in the

middle where both kids play and try to make a basket. Well, the kids who can make the basket have been in the park much more than they've been in school, and the kids who are going to really make the basket are in the Avenue school. So the injustice of the one percent is a much more interesting film for me to make than a celebrity document although I would argue that some of those are acquisitions and not things that

we make from scratch, and there's a difference. And I was going to ask you about that, sheield, because that's why I kept saying that the documentaries that you produce and also support, because in some cases you you buy other people's documentaries. And when you do that, do you then put your impromontre on it or imper mater I never know, But do do you say I'd like to buy this and now I'd like to change it? Or do you buy it and sort of let it exist?

As it was? Mostly what we buy, we leave because it was good enough to buy, and to lose the opportunity to create, then it has to be pretty good to begin with. Um. But you know, sometimes the producer wants different music, or would like to do it a different way, or want some feedback from someone who's experienced right, or you know, and sometimes you don't touch anything. We didn't touch Citizen four. I mean we learned from Citizen four. I learned from Laura all the time. I learned from

Laura even when they're not our docues. I mean, you know she's a teacher. What did you learn from her? To be a master's storyteller first and to be politically so committed that you make a film that comes from your gut, not just another film. I mean, I think she's extraordinary filmmaker. A listener called in with the question for you about the business of documentary filmmaking, and let's

listen to him. Hey, this is Kevin from California. I'm an independent documentary filmmaker and this question is for Sheila. As we know, the media industry is changing fast. For example, online we've got social media consumers expect content for free content. Creators can now reach their audiences directly, and of course, with the constant barrage of political news coming from the Trump White House, it seems that any other news stories

and documentary stories just get drowned out. So my question is, what do you think the business models of documentary storytelling will be in the future. Thanks in the future, in the present. I can't predict the future. I'd love to, but I think that the strange thing happened. We did a film called Mommy Dead and Dearest with Aaron Carr and it's about Munchausen by proxy and this woman who tortures her child, and the child eventually kills the mother

with someone she meets on the internet. And you know, it's rating really high. We had no marketing. It invaded social media in a way that was unknown to us. Uh, it got picked up, it became a contagion. It maybe because it wasn't about today, maybe because it wasn't about politics, maybe because it was a human story. I don't really know the answer to your question, except that somehow you have to cut through everything and say, how can I

be different? You know, how can I tell a story that his heart that nudges the world, that moves it a little bit forward, um without being you know, too proud about that, but you know, something that has good value for humankind, because God knows we need those stories. How has Netflix changed? I mean, Netflix is you know, you could say it's a competitor. On the other hand, it's an inspirer. It inspires you to find something that's going.

I can't buy what Netflix can buy. Don't have the the ability to build a library in the way that they have made this great reputation, and rightfully so. On a library. I have to get them that month to pay that bill. So it's very different the search for what will be stimulating a live hot on fire win Awards. Um, it's a different it's a different business. Um. But it's

a tough. It's tough, you know. I was going through Netflix this weekend because I was looking for I Am Not Your Negro, which I haven't seen that great document and um and and my husband and I were going through all the documentaries on Netflix and we're like, we had never heard of probably seven eighths of those documentaries, and we said, it's it's almost it's almost heartbreaking because I know what goes into putting together a documentary. It's

years and blood, sweat and tears of people's lives. Well, if you put it on HBO, you'll know it's on. No, you will, because I mean, we don't have the quantity and certainly they have quality as well as we do. But we we we really push the title. But you worry about the documentary, honey, I worry about the rain on a sunny day, about the blood of the documentary. Of course I do. But in a sense, it's challenging because you can do something that cuts through cheez you

must be good, right. Um, In a sense, there's a gift that comes with not being able to buy quantity. You know. I always remember when I was little, had two dresses. Now I have like nine and never know what to wear. I never had a problem knowing what to wear because I only had two choices. So I think you become more select when you were selective, I should say, when you can only choose a limited number

of things. When you're not building a library, you're building a monthly service that people want to subscribe to, and you know I want to, you know have So it's different, different business. It's interesting. I want to bring this conversation full circle and just get back to the book one more time, because we really want you to be Sheil on the New York Times bestseller list more than just one week. Um, did I go to that copy for free? Year? Did you buy it? No? I I actually got it

in a gift bag from Literary Literacy Partners. Wasn't that all full of six people got a book for free? I know I was. I always try to get on by John. Where did you get yours from? I got mine from Amazon? Oh? How touching? So getting back to your life story, Sheila. Do you you don't really regret writing this? I don't regret know what to regret what someone said I was older, fat, or stupid? Maybe I am. I don't. But if you knew then what you know

now about the processing book all over again? Absolutely the same book, with the same characters hiding behind trees, the same characters coming up front. I think I would have punctuated a few things a little better. And you know, I wish I could change a few sentences around. But no, I no regrets. I'm pretty proud of it. How did I do it? I had a full time job, life, you know whatever I mean, how did I do it? I don't really know. Did you feel did you feel

like you learned about yourself in the process? I mean, in other words, that's a very good question. Yes, I felt that I learned. I was ashamed of nothing, that I had done, nothing that really embarrassed me. That's a good feeling, Not a facelift, not sleeping with a boss, not anything. You know, when I said to my son, I want to write about Tourette's and I want to write about you, is it okay? And he said, yeah,

if it's truthful. And when I read the poem to a very old boyfriend, the anti Semitic poem about what his mother had said to me, he said, it's true. And I was a coward. So how can I regret anything? I mean, I didn't tell any lies, So why would I regret I hid behind a few trees, but I didn't tell any lies. Well, I was very honored to

be able to read one of the essays. And since this is since this is my damn podcast, we're gonna we're gonna and Brian sorry, but humor me, We're gonna play a little bit of what I read because it was so much fun. So this was really about well, Sheila set up this essay. It's about technology and kind of it's about being alone on a red eye and realizing you're the only one with a hardcover book. And Katie took that part. I've been there, let's listen. So there I was, in the midst of this now age

flight reading a hardcover book. It dated me, like saying record when you mean MP three or telephone when you mean cell, but I didn't care. Suddenly, a strange thing occurred in the midst of a rather disturbing turbulent bump my heartcover books eyes opened. I didn't know until that very moment that books had eyes. Suddenly tears rolled down the book's cover, and the book spoke. I'm over, said, sobbing done for everything is digital, I'm black and white.

I'm old fashioned print. That was so much fun and I love the music method acting. By the way, my husband, he's going to make so much fun of me because he says I'm so pretentious because I say rather rather than rather. But I don't know, Bryan, do you say rather or rather? I do too, and I blame you for that. Actually, my whole family blames you for that because they claimed that before I met you, I said rather. Yeah, now I say rather, and I don't even think of

do you say aunt or aunt? I say I say aunt, I say aunt? I do? I do assure me with everything else, this woman needs help. I need professionals, professional help. Well, I was thrilled to be one of the readers of your wonderful essays, and she'll I'm really happy you wrote this book, and I loved reading it, and I loved talking to you about it, and I love talking to you about it, and I loved you reading it. When

you left, everybody said she's quite an actress. Really took the book to heart, Philip, Thank you, Thank you, Thanks as always to our producer Gianna Palmer and to our intrepid sound engineer Jared O'Connell. Thanks also to social media guru Alison Bresnik and to Emily Beina for her part in producing the show. Thanks as well to our engineer Ryan in Los Angeles, and to Nora Richie for her additional editorial assistance. Brian, I have to interrupt because you're

sounding particularly racipe today. Brian has a little bit of a cold, so that's why he sounds like a male Brenda for Carro. Right now, I would like to thank Mark Phillips for our theme music and also plug Alert. Mark makes music under the artist named Sono Otto. His new full length album is called Inheritance and it's out now, which reminds me. I don't think I sang during this podcast, Brian, and if I knew, can you think of Inheritance? I

have no idea anyway. That was beautiful. Thank you. Katie Kirk and I are the executive producers of this podcast, and if you'd like to get in touch you can leave us a voicemail at nine to nine two two four four six three seven, and don't forget to call in with your questions from Matt Walsh. You can also email us at comments at correct podcast dot com. You can find me on social media at Katie Couric on Twitter and Instagram, Katie dot Curric on Snapchat, and Brian

is goldsmith be on Twitter. You definitely should follow Brian because he's a lot more opinionated than I am. And hey, if you like our show, please let the world know by rating and reviewing us on Apple Podcasts, and don't forget to subscribe as well. Thank you so much for listening, Brian, tell our nice listeners goodbye, Asta luego a revoir. Talk to you next time.