Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric and this is next question. Well, just a couple of months ago, I sat down with John F. Kennedy Junior for what turned out to be his last television interview. Who would have ever thought the occasion was the Profile Encourage Award given out by John and his sister every year. As it happened, we did not broadcast everything from that interview, so we wanted to share the rest of it with you this morning. JFK
Junior's last interview May nineteen ninety nine. We were talking about his mom. That was in the summer of nineteen ninety nine, when I was reporting from Hyanna Sport after John F. Kennedy Junior's plane went down. I still can't believe that I conducted his last TV interview just months before he.
Parented for both of them, and I think she was deliberate in ensuring that his interest in his serns were part of our upbringing and some of her own which were not his, And I think there was a dynamic there that was healthy.
Gosh, it's so heartbreaking to listen to that even all these years later. Today, July sixteenth is the twenty fifth anniversary. Can you believe it of the shocking desks of JFK. Junior, his wife Carolyn Bassett, and her sister Lauren. They're playing piloted by John went down off the coast of Massachusetts. He was just thirty eight years old, Carolyn just thirty three, and Lauren was thirty four. Was so much ahead of them. Today, on this sad anniversary, we bring you a pair of
companion episodes about their lives. I spoke with the authors of two new books. Once Upon a Time, written by journalist Elizabeth Beller, focuses on Carolyn Bassett and her legacy. Then there's JFK Jr. An intimate oral biography, a collection of stories from some of John's close friends, compiled by Rosemarie Torenzio, his longtime assistant and chief of staff, as well as Liz McNeil of People Magazine. For the longest time, no one close to John or Carolyn would talk much
about them. It seemed to be some kind of understanding among their friends. But now twenty five years later, it seems like many people who knew them are now willing to open up and tell some stories about their lives. What was it about John and Carolyn that made people so fascinated by their every move. Did they somehow represent both the past and the future. Was it a combination
of nostalgia and hope? It certainly was for me. I was one of the legions of people absolutely captivated by them, and of course one of the millions of women besotted by John. Seeing that come to a sudden senselessness and was just devastating. But thanks to these two new books, in many ways, we get to know them all over again and have a much better sense of who they
really were. First of all, thank you for talking to me about this book and about Carolyn Bissett, because like most people of my generation, I was absolutely fascinated by her admired her from afar. She was such an enigma, I think to so many of us. Why did you decide you wanted to write this book, Elizabeth?
I decided after the twentieth anniversary of the accident because all this information sort of came in my inbox when they were alive. I of course knew who they were, but I only saw them on newsstands, you know, or in the Delhi and I didn't really read that much about them at the time. It's just a different culture
now and the media is very different. So I was getting stories in my inbox, and I began to read, and I noticed a huge discrepancy between the way that people who knew her spoke about her and the way certain tabloids spoke about her. And the more I read, the more I noticed it, and then I felt compelled
to sort of change the narrative. For example, Rose Marie trenzia book Fairytale Interrupted, and then Carol Radzewill's book What Remains, both incredible books really show a different picture than certain tabloids that were painting her out to be a harvey or a gold digger or you know, and after the fact, many years later, sort of trying to lay blame for the accident at her feet, which felt wrong.
Why did you find yourself gravitating toward the contours of Carolyn's story and what do you mean exactly by that?
Let's see, I think the contours that drew me to it were I was very interested in someone, especially in an age where we're so saturated by pictures of people and putting up their platform. I was very interested in somebody who was not interested in fame. In fact, she saw it as sort of the thief of joy, and
that restraint was very interesting and actually attractive. I think we're at a very interesting crux in society where I hope that we are starting to realize that a little bit of the internet's sort of toxic herd mentality can start to change a bit, and we're beginning to understand that things aren't exactly the way they seem from the outside, and everybody has their own battle, and whether we can see it visually or not, it's there, and I hope this can represent a little bit of a change in
the way that we treat people in the public eye.
Tell me about the process, because you did extensive reporting, Elizabeth, you talked to so many people. Tell me who you reached out too, if you spoke with and were there people who did not want to talk to you.
Yes, there were. It was a long process and it took a lot of time. Some people ended up speaking to me sort of after getting to know me a bit and realizing the types of questions that I was asking, and then when that was the moment I believe they realized I was looking for the contours of her story. I was looking to understand a human being that held
back quite a bit. There were eventually, thank goodness, a lot of people who really wanted to participate in studying the record straight and showing what a compassion based person she was. She was a caretaker. And the ones who did didn't decide to speak. I actually respect that too. I mean, they want to protect the fact that they asked them to not speak to people about their private lives when they were alive, and I find it beautiful
that people want to honor that. But I also equally find it beautiful that they At this point, it's about legacy and we want to change it. We don't want it to let it stand that she was some heartbee who made their You know, it's her fault that the plane took off late because she was getting a pedicure for three hours. You know, these kind of fallacies.
I want to talk a little bit about that day in a moment, but first I want to go back to the nineties when they were at the white hot epicenter of popular culture. I don't think there were two more famous people back then then. John F. Kennedy Junior and Carolyn Bissett. Take us back and describe to someone who perhaps wasn't around then, what their lives were like, and how they occupied such a huge role in the media landscape.
Yes, I think they were one of the first celebrities who were sort of chased in that and that kind of way. In the nineteen nineties, John had just sort of come into age, and it was a sport and a pastime to have JFK. Junior sightings around New York City. He really was. You know, everybody would talk about it. Oh, John was here, John was there.
I saw him running in the park. I saw him kicking a soccer ball without his shirt. I mean part of the deal was I mean, if I had to be brutally Frank is just he was so handsome. He was just a beautiful man.
Yes, I mean, obviously he was. I the one of the few times I saw him, he was rollerblading up Columbus Avenue and as we know, columb heads down and you get a shirt off, and was holding a pizza box above his head. Everybody on the street steps and was like, what was that? What was it? And then you realize later, Oh, it was JFK. Junior. And you know, yes,
obviously looks very different than most people. But I think one of the things about him is that he was gracious and kind and took that attention with such grace. He learned from the best his mother, right, and he kind of learned from osmosis. There unfortunately, was not a handbook that he could hand to Carolyn to learn how
to take that, you know, attention in stride. But also I think it's important to keep in mind that there was so much surrounding John that the attention going to her was maybe sort of a mother in law mentality or you know, what do you mean, who was this woman? Why is she the one white her? So then you you know, then the media started to sort of pick her apart and buy her looks and where she was from,
what her career was. There were even comments that, you know, Calvin Klein pr wasn't proper enough for Kennedy wife, and.
It wasn't a serious enough job, correct, right.
And the thing was is, you know, they seemed to, according to friends, fallen in love because they were both combastionion based people and they liked to laugh a lot together. They were devoted to their family and friends, and I you know, and but when he started dating her, a lot of that attention went on to her too, and even more so after they were married. I don't think there was any way that anyone could have had any idea exactly what that was going to be like.
After this quick break, Elizabeth takes us back to the moment met Carolyn and John met. If you want to get smarter every morning with a breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter wake Up Call by going to Katiecouric dot com. Now more with author Elizabeth Beller, tell us about how they first met and if it was an immediate attraction. Take us back to that moment.
Yeah, nineteen ninety two and John was coming in to look at some suits, and they kind of decided Carolyn would be the best person at Calvin Kleine to show him the suits. She was probably the most effervescent, but also the least likely to be intimidated by celebrity. Celebrity was not high on her her list, or fame was not high on her list. I know she wanted to do something important with her life and meaningful, but she was not focused on those kinds of things, so she
was unfazed by celebrities. Who Cape men. So they immediately hit it off and then there was about two years of back and forth and back and forth. You know, they were very young at the time.
How old were they.
I think she was twenty six and he must have been almost thirty two, my math, and but he was very He was in a state of fux. He was working in the DA's office still in nineteen ninety two. I understand coming to the understanding that he did not want to be a lawyer and figuring out what was next, and George was just an idea. Slowly, it was more
so that he was working on it. And by the time I think he felt settled into what he knew he was going to do, because, let's face it, what he going to do was a big burden for him. He had to do with that last name. There was an enormous pressure for him to do something big and to make it stand out. And turns out George was quite precient because culture and politics do go hand in
hand today. But it took him a while to get settled in that, and I think he needed to feel that he knew what his trajectory was going to be before he settled down. And by then Jackie got sick, and unfortunately he did not get to introduce Carolyn and Jackie, which he told several friends that was one of his biggest regrets.
Do you think he would have gone into public service ultimately.
Yes, absolutely, he told several friends. And he also he was going to run for senator, and then when Hillary Clinton, they were friendly with the Clinton family. When Hillary Clinton went into that senatorial race, he sort of backed out, but then he started to eye governorship. It was definitely in the plan, and one of the things that he
was working on. One of the many weights they had was that, you know, George, it initially did very well, and then, like a lot of magazines, it takes quite some time to make money financially, and he was under a lot of financial burden with that. And it was David Becker who was the head of Hush at Philipacci at the time, and they would trot John out for dinners, for bringing in advertising money and lunches and appearances, and it turned out they weren't one hundred percent sure that
money was going into George. So it was a very tricky time.
I don't want John's memory to overshadow Carolyn's because after all, this is a book about her life. Tell us a little bit about her childhood, about her family life, about going to Boston University. Just give us a thumbnail sketch of who this young woman was.
Yes, so she was born in White Plains and she lived there until she was eleven. A lot of that time was with her single mother and her two older sisters, who were twins. Her mother was a powerhouse, and actually all three girls were too. They took her example to heart, and she not only taught them to work hard, but she taught them a lot about empathy and not leaving people behind. And that was one of the things that prompted me to want to write this book, that she
really was a caretaker, very compassion based. If someone had, you know, an issue. In third grade, a friend was getting bullied, she you know, put this person under her wing and took care of them. In fifth grade, there was a boy whose mother had died, and children can sometimes not be quite sympathetic or and they you know, were saying, you know, oh, your mom died, and Carolyn was the one to come to him and say no, no, no, no,
don't listen to them. They don't really know what they're talking about and comforted him, took him under her wing. That this was behavior that she always had her mother's family. Her mother was a first generation Italian American. Her grandfather came from Italy, a very strong work ethic. I like to think it has to do with her impeccable eye and fashion and style as well. She did have some times where she felt like her father was not around enough.
But one of the beautiful things was later on in her life and even at the encouragement of John, that they had a reprochement. And it was lovely because she began to understood more that it wasn't that her father didn't want to be there, but if you're living apart, and it was the seventies and his work took him away quite often, and then kids get caught up in their lives and it was more about circumstances. But were they divorced, Yes, the parents divorced when Caroline nineteen seventy four.
They divorced and Carolyn's mother, Anne Freeman, who was a teacher beloved by her students by the way, remarried an orthopedic surgeon and then they relocated to Greenwich, Connecticut. So people often like to say she's from an affluent background. She was more from a middle class background, but with a very strong work ethic and highly intelligent and empathetic people. I like to put it that way, and I think that was a lot of her appeal for John.
She went on to Boston University. Tell us about her college years and how she was shaped by them.
You know, it's funny. I just met someone the other day who went to college with her that I didn't get a chance to speak to for the book. They all spoke about how down to earth she was. That kindness was definitely there. Taking care of her roommate lost her mother, she sat down next to her on the couch and just, you know, held her hand in a
way that is unusual for someone at that age. She studied education, which is what her mother studied, and she adored children, absolutely adored them, and had an excellent way with them. They often immediately felt comfortable in her presence. But a lot of her classmates noted that she was very down to earth. Most of the time. She was in sweats or you know, scrambled her hair on top of her head. She was not a fashion plate at the time. She was buried down to Earth and from
Boston University. She was getting out of a cab at Chestnut Hill Mall and she was spotted by a Calvin Klein regional representative who said, hey, you you to come and work in this store. So, I you know, she definitely, you know, and a fashion icon, an impeccable eye. But I don't think that was what she had always planned to do with her life. And I think her values were often comse elsewhere.
So you think she wanted to be a teacher like her mom, ideally until the fates intervened, and so the faiths intervened.
Yes, I think I think she did. You know, she got a degree in education. There's an adorable story in the book about she and another woman student teaching and it's Boston and December and they've got to get three year olds outside and then back inside without tears. So they duct taped there were going to just duct tape these little kittens to their mittens, you know, the cop to the mittens, and then just kind of cut them
off when they come back in. She just loved and one of the things that she was thinking about doing before the accident, she was really thinking about getting back into teaching in any way that she could to work with underserved communities. It was important to her, and so she needed time. Though. She needed time to figure out how what exactly that would be and exactly how it
would look. Because they had so many eyes on them, she felt like she needed to have everything locked and loaded because she knew that if she didn't the way the tabloids had been that she would get torn apart for it. So she was being careful about her next steps. But they had not even been married three years. So when we think about all the iterations and career changes that we've all had over the many years, you know, it would have been lovely to be able to see
what she would have done. I think it would have made a difference.
You know, when I look back at photos of that time when she is dating and then married to John, I think how terrifying and borderline miserable it must have been to just be hunted like that everywhere you went. They couldn't leave their apartment. I think they had a place in Tribeca, and every time they left their home or walked down the street, I mean, it was just these vultures descending on them. And I'm sure and by the way, some of the people, the paparazzo's I guess
that's the plural, are actually fine and nice people. This is how they make a living. But it's just so constant and so intrusive. How did she feel about being on display? Pretty much twenty four to seven, or whenever she ventured out in public, she.
Was terrified, absolutely terrified. And they treated her differently if she was when she was with John and if she was on her own. If John was around, it was a little bit more like, Hi, how are you guys doing? Can you give us a smile? You know, keeping a respectful distance. If she was on her own, they would often close in and yell out epithets to try to get a face of unhappiness that they could then add a story of, you know, trouble in the marriage, you know,
create that narrative. She became further and further frightened. It was terrible. I mean, I'm hoping that with this book that the difference between how someone was painted and who had, you know, had to live in the public eye. The difference between how they were painted and the reality is something that we can all start to maybe keep in our minds when we sort of that toxic herd mentality
that we have towards people in the public eye. You know, everyone free to comment, and it's you know, let's elevate a little bit and keep in mind that these are human beings trying to live a real life, and we have an opportunity now. I think, you know, everyone's saturated with images. People feel obligated to have a platform by
putting pictures of themselves out there. Maybe it's I'm hoping the book sort of shows a way that people can empathize a little bit more understand that people never no one ever knows exactly how something is going to go. Carolyn couldn't have known that this would have been her life. She knew that she would be in the public eye. She had no idea she could walk out her front door.
And I just think, be a little gentler and kinder with one another, and just know that we, even if it may look like we have absolutely everything, that everyone's got a battle.
Do you think John prepared her well enough. This reminds me a little bit of Megan Markle and Prince Harry. You know, somebody entering this public sphere and having a certain appreciation for what was to come, but not truly experiencing or understanding the level of intensity that takes place. And I'm curious if he helped her enough acclimate to this new normal they experienced.
Let's see. Well, you know, the funny thing is is it ramped up after they got married, and that was exactly when they were expecting it to settle down. There was interest and it was incoming, but once they got married, it went into overdrive. And I really don't think there was any way to anticipate that it would be exactly like that. And I think John did try to sort of teach her. He was a gracious, kind man.
And it's something he was so used to because he had grown up with it.
You'd grown up with it and learned by watching from the time that he was a young toddler, right, and the fact that the public knew him from the time he was a young toddler also made the public and the media have a different attitude towards him than a female coming in and being seen as an intertloper. And as we know, you know, marrying into any family can be you know, can bring out the mother in law
mentality as who is this person? Are they good enough, and when you marry into a very large public family and that way, that that doubles. And it seems like misogynist, classist, and racist tropes can be thrown at these women because it's just too easy when they're coming in from the outside. And unfortunately, there is no handbook to hand over to someone because you just don't know exactly what the attention is going to be.
Or what they're going going to write, or how you're going to be received, or the tricks of the trade, as you said, getting her to scal or look sad so good accompany some bs story.
Yes, oh exactly, over and over, and you know who isn't going to look afraid and angry if you're being I'm sorry to use the word, if you're someone shouting out to you that you're a whore and a gold digger when you're just trying to go to the grocery store. There was an incident where she fell on the steps and groceries went everywhere, and no one helped her. No one tried to help her gather her groceries or help her up. They just got closer and took more pictures.
And I just think there's there's no way to be prepared for that, even if you did have a handbook. That hurts and you see that they're treating John one way and you another, and it made her frightened, and it made her reclusive. That worsened they treated her. You know, it became a little bit of a vicious circle. I do feel like and hope that this was the case. Is she was beginning to work through a lot of that. Towards the end. She very one of the very few
times that she spoke to any publication. She spoke to Women's Wear Daily in March of ninety nine, explaining that she no longer read about herself and felt that not only was she a happier person because of that, but maybe a better person because of that.
You mentioned that she was terrified with the onslaught of attention, and I'm curious how that impacted their marriage. Were they happily married? From what you were able to glean.
I think that they they loved each other very much. I mean from what I was able to glean. I was not there, and this is talking to people after the fact. I think there was no doubt that they really loved one another. They enjoyed time together they laughed a lot together. That was one of the main things. Is their sense of humor was very in accord and they valued their friends, They were devoted to their family.
All of these things brought them together. Now, when something like public and media attention intrudes on a private life, it becomes very difficult. We've seen over and over many marriages sort of implode under that kind of pressure. I spoke with Karl Radziwill once, and you know, she explained to me that even old friends might call you and say, oh, my gosh, I read this. Is that true? And you say, no, of course it's not true that of course.
That didn't happen.
But then that little thing becomes part of the narrative in your life and your marriage, but also in navigating those friendships and those other relationships if they're worried about you because they read something absolutely cuckoo.
And people, I think can't delineate, you know, fact from fiction. I mean, I've experienced this in a very small way in my life and career, and it can be very destabilizing. And of course you multiply that a million times for poor Carolyn Beset, and you think, gosh, it just really can have the impact of just really screwing you up and not knowing who you can trust, who's talking to the press, feeling insecure. You know, it's just it's a lot of stuff to manage.
It's so much to manage, and it really does intrude And I think one of the hard things for them was the difference in the ways that they wanted to handle that. And of course they're different people. They're different people from different backgrounds, coming at it with a different set of tools. But also John is used to it and he just kind of had to learn to, you know,
you just wave and move on. And I think because he was so busy with his magazine and under his own pressure, he probably got frustrated with the fact that it was taking her a while. But then when we look at it from her point of view, it was a very different experience for her in many different ways, and it was destabilizing. She was hurt by what they were saying. I don't think she expected them to portray her as a heartbeat or a gold digger, which is
a word that I really despise, gold digger. And I'd like to point out that it seems like if a woman is you know gold Digger one oh one is have a baby right away right because that feels like some kind of something, and her reluctance to have a child until things settled down more it shows what her
values are there. She wanted the marriage like in a good, stable place, and she wanted it to be a situation where a child wouldn't be traumatized by walking out and having their picture taken the moment they stepped out their front door.
Did they ever think about leaving New York? I feel like if they hadn't been in the epicenter of New York City and you know, Hipsterville, they might have been able to enjoy a little more privacy. Did they think about that?
I think that was one of the things that they were talking about. I don't you know. I only heard that from a couple of friends. But it seems very logical that they would have been searching for another property where they could have the apartment in the city but also have another home to have more of a base for raising children. And I do think they were thinking
about that. But John had to make sure that George was solvent before he had moved on to the next thing, and in fact, he was touching base with a close friend about how to turn it into more of an internet magazine, which what it was new at the time, which is also interesting because it's like Carolyn was almost that first internet celebrity that was hounded in an Internet way, and I think it was just very frightening for her.
And I think that if you know, there were issues, you know, as in every married couple, I think the first couple of years of marriage or the hardest, it's not about the toothbrush and you know, it's it's about what ways are you going to grow? And what great ways are you going to help me grow? And what ways are we going to have to also learn to accept and tolerate and be patient with because nobody grows at light speed. But I really do think they loved
each other. I'd like to think that they would have made it. I do think the fact that he very much wanted her to accompany him to Rory Kennedy's wedding and the fact that she did make the decision to go ahead and do it, I think that shows you know, that they were still committed. But it takes a huge toll, as you know, right it's being in the public eye is, and it was something that she never she never wanted when she hesitated with his engagement, with his proposal, it
was about that. It was about, you know, she hadn't been interested in a public life and was she willing to take it on to be with him.
July sixteenth, nineteen ninety nine, was the day that that plane went down off Martha's vineyard. And I think everyone remembers Elizabeth where they were when they heard the news. And I remember my sister Emily, who was dealing with cancer at the time, calling me. It was a Saturday morning and I think it must have been like ten thirty or eleven, and she called me and said, did
you hear about John Kennedy's plane? And I wondered if you could just take us back to that day because there have been a lot of urban legends about what happened. To be honest with you, I've heard the stories about she needed a manicure, she was late, and all these things. So I would love you to put some of those stories to rest. What did you discover had happened that day?
Thank you so much, And that was part of why I wrote the book. I wanted to put some of those stories to rest when we lose someone, and everybody felt like they knew John, and in a way, Carolyn, when we lose someone, people often want to assign blame. It's not our best feature as human beings, but it's a natural one. John was working that day, Carolyn, who, like any woman, who did decide, oh, yes, I am going to go to this wedding, and it's a summer wedding.
She did go get a pedicure, but she was not there for any elongated amount of time, changing the shade of tonail color three times. And in fact, the gentleman who initially said he saw her getting the pedicure did come back later and said I saw her leaving this salon no later than five o'clock. And then they were all in cars at the same time heading to the airport.
So there became and this was years after. There became a lot of books, some written by men that really tried to place the blame on her and say it was her fault that they were late. That's just not the case. They were all in a car at the same time headed to the airport. It was a sticky, hot New York City Friday. As we know, they can be and somehow sometimes it feels like the city just doesn't want to let you leave it bumper to bumper traffic.
And then the other thing about when people try to say John was careless or that he flew illegally, that's not the case either. He was not careless with his wife. He flew legally for visual flight rules that night. Visual flight rules require five to ten miles of visibility, and he checked the weather report in the afternoon before he went to the airport. He checked it again and it said that there was that much visibility. Unfortunately, that can
change very quickly over those islands. But the what I focus on is the fact that the two of them were going to this together. And you know, accidents are called accidents for a reason. That's a couple. You know, it takes several things going wrong, and it was, you know, it was devastating and sad for everyone. People thought, you know, people felt they'd known John since he was a toddler. It was. It was quite sad. I kind of at
that moment. I remember I was working at Sethy's at the time, and I was going in on a Saturday, and I don't remember what it was for, but I was going in, saw the news there, and from there I just kind of pulled away. I didn't want to
watch it anymore. And I didn't really look at the story again until twenty nineteen, on the twenty eth Ani versary, when the news had changed so much, and it's coming in my inbox instead of something that I would have had to seek out by picking up a magazine and reading.
You know, I didn't watch TV at the time, and so it was very interesting to sort of read all of that many years later, and, like I said, noticed that discrepancy and how Carolyn was portrayed between those who knew her and what the tabloids wanted to make out and even years after their deaths, how they wanted to sort of lay blame at her feet.
When we come back, there was a third person on the plane with John and Carolyn that fateful night. Carolyn's sister Lauren will remember her. Right after this, we're back now with Elizabeth Beller, author of Once Upon a Time. One person you haven't mentioned is Carolyn's sister Lauren, who was on that plane, and I feel like she is
the forgotten victim of all this. I often thought about their mom and the heartache and tragedy of losing two of your daughters in an instant and I know, I guess Lauren's twin is still alive, and gosh, were you able to talk to anyone who knew Carolyn and Lauren's mom.
I did end up speaking with Carolyn's family on her father's side, not her surviving sister, not her surviving sister, you know, I out of respect, I didn't even reach out to her surviving sister. I did write a handwritten letter to her mother and both her father, I guess her mother and stepfather and her biological father at the very beginning, letting them know that I was writing the book, who I was, sort of what my take was, and if they had any questions about me or the book,
to please feel free to reach out. I did not hear from them, and I completely expected that and understood that, Yes, Lauren, all of these girls were powerhouses like their mother, highly intelligent, highly motivated. One of the reasons Lauren came back to the United States from Hong Kong, who's worked for Morgan Stanley, high powered finance executive. But one of the reasons she
came back was to be with Carolyn. When Carolyn was going through this very difficult time, not in a sort of i'll sit next to you every moment and hold your handway, but to be there for her and spend time with her. And I think that helped Carolyn a lot. And it's heartbreaking that these girls who were taught to
never leave anyone behind and be caretaking. It's very heartbreaking to think that that's part of what Lauren was doing when she was also taken, and part of the reason that I wasn't really paying attention that I looked away from the story on July sixteenth, nineteen ninety nine. I looked away and couldn't. It was just the heartbreak of thinking about their family, what became of Carolyn's parents, well, her mother and stepfather. But I don't know how you
get asked that. It's heartbreaking. If I had gotten a note back from any one of the family members saying please don't do this, I would have stopped. But they are still alive, and I did speak with, like I said, her paternal uncle and aunt and nephew. And it's a heartbreaking moment, very heartbreaking moment, and you know that day itself. I don't have too much to comment on other than also,
you know, saddened and shocked. But then I felt like I needed to look away immediately because how large it was in the media. Could not have it must have made mourning them even harder.
How would you describe the Carolyn you got to know during the process of writing this book. You said she was compassionate, she was funny. It sounds like she was down to earth. That quality continued, but she I think her physicality I think worked against those qualities because she was so uniquely beautiful and had so much style that I think for some people they might have perceived that
as haughty or off putting or you know, superior. And I'm just curious because I would then like to ask you about her style, because I know you write a lot about that, and you talk about the fashion she was wearing, et cetera. But tell us about who she really was.
She was very funny and fun loving. Like I said, a lot of her relationship with John was based on laughing together in merciless teasing and laughter and making a joke, even when it was tabloid interests. You know, there was some tabloid saying, oh, she's jealous. You know, John was seen with so and so Carolyn, as a joke, sent a bunch of posters into George with a pretend note saying from Claudia Schiffer, I love you, you know, and
she ha ha ha. She thought it was funny, and John could be heard laughing in his office, but she was joyful, and so that humor went with it, but that sense of joy. One of her friends commented that every day, you know, sort of before she got very frightened, Carolyn looked at life with this, what great thing? What fun thing is going to happen today? What can we make happen? And she commented that that was a trait that Carolyn held on to for a very long time.
And that's unusual, right, It's unusual because life kind of but she did manage to hold on to it. She did manage to still laugh and joke when she was comfortable and in private with friends and remain that caring person who spent a week helping someone out with a problem.
Or when John's cousin, Anthony Radziwill was sick, going to the hospital with Anthony and Carol all the time and sticking a picture of Friday up on the wall, their dog Friday, you know, here, this will cheer you up, you know, half leaving it and half being facetious, but keeping it light and honestly, I think that is something that comes out in the photographs, and that's part of why we are so entranced with these photos of her. And when we talk about the style, obviously she had
an impeccable eye. I think she stressed very differently in private than she did in public. It was almost as if she put on a uniform of all black, hoping, you know, if she's always wearing black, they wouldn't be interested in taking the pictures. And one of the things Yogi Yamamoto, she was often wearing his pieces when she had to do public events. And what was interesting is he had mentioned at an earlier time that his work was almost like armor for women to keep them safe,
and I found that very interesting. I don't know if Carolyn had ever heard that quote, but I think maybe she sensed that that's what that clothing was like and felt like she needed that armor, which is it's unfortunate, and I really do hope that, you know, as a culture and as a public and in media, we can take that and like learn from it and not make people who are in the public eye feel like every
second is scrutinized and tear them apart unthinkingly. I mean, obviously, as someone is hurting someone, yes we call attention to that and ask them to stop. But if someone's going about their day, you know that we really do need to keep in mind that everyone has a battle something that is very hard for them.
She's having a bit of a renaissance on social media, on TikTok, and I think a lot of young women are looking at her with fascination about sort of the way, you know, her whole look and the choices she made and her sense of style. What do you make of this renaissance we're seeing on TikTok and other social media platforms of Carolyn Bessett, the style like.
On I think it is about that restraint. We've gone through a lot of years where it was about very revealing clothes and heavy, heavy makeup, you know, contouring to make your face look completely like a completely different shape than it actually is. And I think, you know, even though Carolyn was you know, she had on the red lipstick and her hair might be back tight, she looked she had a natural look. And I think in an
age where we're saturated with images. I think that that becomes even more appealing.
She's a anti Kardashian in a way.
That's definitely one way to put it. Yes, Like you know, the false eyelashes, it's you know, she had advised one young woman that she was friends with, you know, just push your hair up when it's what put on some lip gloss. You know, mascara wasn't really used. It was a very natural look, which you know, it's it's very appealing.
She was a very beautiful, interestingly beautiful woman too. You know, she wasn't perfect. She wasn't you know, perfectly symmetrical. You know, she had kind of a longer nose, but for whatever reason. And I also think she had, you know, a wonderful companion and just together, they were an incredibly dashing couple.
And I think people also were longing for what JFK and Jackie represented, just an incredibly good looking couple that had an extraordinary sense of stuff, who made you feel good looking at them, made.
You feel good looking at them. You know, the sixties seemed to the early sixties felt to be a very hopeful time. I think that in the nineties, people people were wanting that hope as well. They were an entrancing couple to look at. And I do love that Carolyn was unusual looking. I think it adds to her beauty. It's sort of like an like I mean, like a Linda evangelistaway rights. She's not your cookie cutter either, but
all the more beautiful for it. And one of the friends of Carolyn's from Greenwich commented on that Carolyn was just striking and beautiful, but not in this sort of cookie cutter way that a lot. You know, she didn't have the winged hair, you know, she or the perms that were in the eighties. You know, her hair was always sort of like a natural way, and her beauty was unusual, and which is often all the more so for being unusual.
How old would John be today? Sixty four? Isn't that crazy? And I'm sixty seven, So yeah, it's our generation. And I just realized Carolyn, she and I had the same birthday, January seventh.
You're kidding, Oh, yow, interesting, that's great.
And we both had crushes on her husband.
A lot of women had crushes on her husband was so you know that time did become very hopeful again. And you know, there were their deaths, and then for our generation, right and then nine to eleven and what we were afraid of with y two K. We didn't need to fear that it was all going to stop. I think we probably needed to fear that we weren't prepared to use it properly. And hopefully we're learning more and more now, but it just feels like a huge change happened after that.
Well, the book is called Once Upon a Time, The Captivating Life of Carolyn Bessett Kennedy Elizabeth Feller. Thank you so much for telling us all about the person we thought we knew but really didn't.
Well, thank you so much for having me on and forgiving me the opportunity to talk about it even more, and that people realize, you know what lovely people and compassion based people they both were.
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