We not only talk, but we communicate in a way that says more about how we feel about ourselves and trying to persuade somebody. And the first thing you should do is talk and communicate a set of ideas and values of where people live their lives, which is what anavates me, and I think this is the most important thing.
Hi. Everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric, and this is next question. I've known Rama Manuel for a very long time. He worked for Bill Clinton, he worked for Barack Obama, obviously, and in fact, I did a profile of him back in the day when I was on sixty Minutes. I got to know him so well, or at least research him so well that I knew the reason his middle finger is shorter than the others on his right hand is because he sliced it off in a meat slicer as a teenager when he was working at r v's Yes,
true story. So it's very exciting for me to get a chance to catch up with him, to talk about what's going on in the country, to talk about the Trump administration and everything it's done, to talk about the Democratic Party and everything many people feel it hasn't done, and everything in between So Ram Emmanuel, welcome to next question. Thank you so much for coming, and it's great to see you again. And I'm seeing a lot of you, No rom mister ambassador, Congressman, you've been on to keep
a job. You've been on John Stewart, you were on Bill Maher, you were writing for the Washington Post, you just signed a deal with CNN, and of course most importantly you're sitting down with me. So the question is, yeah, that.
Was like reversed order. We were building up.
What gives are you running for president or something wrong?
If I have something to say, I'll say that. But you know, well, first of all, you know an ambassador, you can't say anything.
So I haven't feel newly liberated.
Yeah, I got to get out of jail card, so that's number one. But I also think things are at a critical juncture both of the country first and foremost, and also for the party. And I have you know, in when I was congressman and chair of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, we had lost the two thousand presidential, the two thousand and two midterm, and the two thousand and four presidential kind of similar dire circumstances for the party.
But I also think in the sense of what's at stake. I don't know if I'm going to run. I think a lot of people are spending time appropriately, you know, obviously confronting Donald Trump.
I mean thinking about running.
No, well, they're kind of well, a lot of people just because I think there's so much at stake. That said, and that's going to work, you know in two thousand, if you thought about it in politics. In twenty twenty six, the midterms, it's a referendum on Donald Trump and the Republican leadership because they run both chambers, both sides of Pennsylvania Avenue. But to get the public to give you the keys to the car between twenty twenty six and twenty twenty eight, you actually have to have a view
of fighting Donald Trump but fighting for America. And I have both through my career working in congressman as mayor, but also President Obama's chief of staff and senior vice or. President Clinton thought a lot about education, healthcare, retirement, security. Those are things I've all worked on. To me, the thing that's most at risk is the American dream. It's not affordable to many people, it's not accessible to many people.
And rather than just all they want is a shot, and I think, as I said before, they've gotten the shaft. And so I'm gonna spend my time and if I think about that and then think about what I've worked on and have something to offer, I'll think about it. But it's not a yes and no. That's what I you know, you'll know in your gut.
I really appreciate how honest you are being wrong, because you know, I've had to.
Because that's a rarity for an a magnumum no.
But I've had to ask a lot of people, you know, during the course of my career, what are you going to do? And they hem and haw. But I think that's probably the most honest answer I've ever heard from somebody.
Here's my thing, which is, look, I mean, I get the politics of fighting Trump because there's real stakes and real interests. But then if you think also about politics, you have to fight for the American people. And I'm gonna spend my time as I have on education first sex And I don't mean to go through my record, but like we were the first city to create free community college. You got to be average in Chicago post schools. We made both community college transportation and books free, get
earn it. And also you couldn't get your high school diploma unless you had a letter of acceptance for me, either college, community college, or branch of the Armed forces or vocational school. So we made post high school universal for city to do it. And to me, those are like the essentials for access to the American dream. That not just your children. My children, they're gonna be Let's be honest, they're gonna be okay. I mean, you worry
about them, but they're gonna be okay. They can have they got an education of loving home, they can navigate. For a lot of other children and families, that's not true. And I want my time is spent thinking about how do you make that dream accessible? And if I think I have an answer to that, then I'm gonna I'll do something. If I don't or it's not in your belly, I won't.
There's so many things I want to talk to you about, but you mentioned the mid terms, so I'm curious, you know, are you thinking about what may happen? You're right, it is a referendum mont Donald Trump and the Republican Party. Do you think people are going to come out and droves, what do you predict for the midterms?
So first of all, you you know, a month used to feel like a year. A week now feels like a year. So you're asking me, I want to be clear April twenty and twenty five about what's going to happen in November, October and November of twenty twenty six. A long time that said two things that are pretty self evident now can change. So I want to those are all my coveyasts. Now'll just run into it. The most fascinating thing of two weeks ago when there was
Florida and Wisconsin. While all of it was fascinating, one was the Supreme Court election in Wisconsin. Wasn't just Milwaukee and Madison. There was depth in the roal areas. That wow. Second, the most fascinating thing to me was Ascambia County. It's in Matt Gates's district. That's where Pensacola is. It's fourteen percent veterans. The national average is six, so more than double veterans not counting active duty in Pensacola Navy. Donald
Trump took it by nineteen points. That county. The Democrats won it plus three. It had been decades, decades since the last Democrat won it on a federal election. So you know, if I told you on the night Donald Trump was elected president that the new base for the Democratic Party would be you know, veterans of the arms, you would you would not have taken that bet. You
wouldn't taken that bet. Never possible. The second thing that's fascinating to me is in twenty twenty two, twenty twenty three, and twenty twenty four in special elections, the only way Democrats won was low turnout, high turnout. We did. Now every election since November has been very, very high turnout, and Democrats are short of the two Florida seats won everything. And so it's not totally dependent on a low turnout,
high education voter for the Democrat. And so if you look at the data today, you look at consumer sentiment. I think the Trump vote that was anti Kamala and the swing slash independent voter that will make up congressional districts of the election work today. And I don't know the map like I used to, I would say the Democrats are going to take double digit numbers somewhere in the kind of ten to let's say mid fifteenths. The senate's a little rougher real estate, but you got the
Virginia governor's race in twenty twenty five. I'd have to bet on the Democrats now, and then.
There's navigat span Burger.
But also I think you're gonna If I was doing the other races, I would just make sure every there's a Democratic name on every county can missioner, on every city council, on every alder minic, all every school board, have every nothing is left, because I think this has get as many surf and surfboards and surfers as there are and just fill it up because I think that's what's going to happen. Yeah, given everything that we know, this April, we're doing this April, We're doing this interview.
I always say this has a potential. You can feel the momentum of this wave building.
Yeah, you know, I think it's not too soon because everybody I interview are all my followers, you know, and I think they're a good bell weather rom about.
Well, I can tell you your feeling. I can tell you two people I know of your followers really seriously. Who one is my yoga instructor? She goes person pounding me to get on your show. Is my yoga instructor Amy's.
And my yoga instructor, Well, tell her thank you, Yeah, tell her I appreciate it. But I am doing a lot of interviews and I get a lot of feedback from my followers, and I have, you know, a few million people who actually pay attention to the people I'm speaking with, and I would say the majority of people at least over the last several weeks. Now maybe there was a little glimmer of hope in Wisconsin and Florida recently, but they're like, what the hell is going on with
the Democratic Party. We'll talk about the Republicans in a moment, but you know, words like feckless, you know, lacking direction, where's the leader? And I'm curious if you think that's a fair assessment.
Yes and no, that's the honest answer. So one, I kind of I describe it as a tale of two parties. One is, I just gave you results out in the country. So there's Democratic voters, they're a leading and they're saying there's massive energy and not just among Democratic voters, but also voters who see the Democrats as a better option.
So that's once part of the narrative, moment, part of the story, and shouldn't be ignore it because I mean, as I grew up with, both President Clinton and President Obama are kind of big part of my political education. You know, elections have consequences. You want a Supreme Court justice win an election, You want to pass the taxaization of favor working families pass win an election. That's you know, that's a So that's one side of the narrative. The other side is one is is I don't want to
say limited to or constrained, but is around Washington. And I think given the speed in which they were dealing with incoming from President Trump, they got vertico. They couldn't tell up from down and you know, left from right, and they.
It wasn't that the plan Stan, you.
Know what that was his plan? Well, you got to have your plan, I mean, and so and I think, so let me then fast forward. And this is somewhat influenced because of my own view about how the continuing resolution the funding of government was not dealt with in about think it's six weeks if I mind calculations, right, they have to raise the deat limit and my general rules, I said this pre that in February on This was
on the government funding one Karras Swisher's podcast. But I'll say here for the debt limit, I said, then you got to have principles. Well, you gotta have principles. My principles are I would do something on tariffs, claw back the power be on taxes, and see on healthcare. And if you want our support for raising the deat limit. We got three things. Now you don't meet them. You guys have all the gavels and you have all the microphones.
That's your art of the deal man.
Well, I mean, yeah, you wanna art of the deal. Yeah, it's called win win. It's not called wind loose. You like to win loose. Well, we're not going to be on that side of the trade. Okay, So we want to claw back power on tariffs because you've actually sent the economy into a recession and working families have been there and stayed there and then now they're there really deeper down. B here's what we're going to do on tax This is it relates to the wealthy and well off.
And here's what we're going to do is it relates to medicaid and premium support. You can't cut it to pay for tax cuts for you know, Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk and the rest of them. Forget about it. And that's the price. And if you don't like it, that's okay. You're in the majority in the House, you're the majority in the Senate. God willing and God bless you and so and I want to say, so when in nineteen ninety four, when new Gingrigh try to shut the government down.
And contract with America, Yeah, we did contract.
For America, right, well, it was a contract to America, that's how I remember it. But we had M squared E squared, Medicare and medicaid, education environment. Those are the principles, and that's you do that. You can't touch Medicare and medicaid. You can't cut education environment either. And in the end of the day, Gingrich had a fold. Fast forward to
twenty thirteen. Now these are around government shutdowns, slightly different also because working for a president's microphones slightly different than when you're in the minority in the House. In the House and the Senate, it was called the three piece premium support parents, kids on their healthcare and pre existing conditions, and so you have to have the principles you enunciate clearly ahead of time, so you can't do it forty eight hours beforehand. There's going to be a real need night.
The Freedom Caucus doesn't like voting for these debtlimits, okay, which not like we like it either, but as Democrats, but if you want our vote, here's our principles, and they're pretty clear. Your tariffs have created nothing but havoc in people's lives and in the four to one ks and their savings and their college funds for their kids. And we don't think you should cut premium supports and medicate to do tax cuts for the rich. And here's
what we want for tax cuts. And if not, well you know the Speaker and you know the Senate Majority leader and you can work it out with them. And that I think would give you the strength part that people are looking for in direction part the Democrats need to provide.
Yeah, you owe some kind of counter narrative, right, well.
I think. Look, my rule about politics when I work is what unifies your side and divides the other side. The House and Senate Republicans aren't too happy about tariffs. If you're from a agricultural driven state, so we can either you can either go with the president, or you can go with your state. You're in a rural state or you're in a tough congressional district. Try cutting Medicaid and see if your local hospital survives. So you can either be with President Trump or you can screw your
local hospital and all the people in employees. And so my view is I have a very simple what unites our team and divides the other team.
Do you think that calculation is finally getting to some Republicans who are like, holy shit, my loyalty to Donald Trump is going to cost me. It's not going to protect me.
You know you say that, So let me the one thing I would say, Look, I'm surprised they've gone this far putting their principles in a lock box. And I look, there's very As a most ambassador, as chief of staff, they're very good. I mean I can say this about certain House members I worked with and certain senators Republicans. I'm talking about very decent people, smart people, care a great deal. I am shocked what they go along with.
No Democrats. I mean, I mean, if we if any president tried anything like this on the tariffs or anything on the Justice Department and the FBI. Bill Clinton did not fire Louis Free. One of the one of the calculations was it backlash. I'm shocked at this. So I'm you know, you say to me, when will Liver I don't know when the repubonent's going to stand up. I'm like the last person asked. I'm like, you know, you must be firming your opinion. It's your principles you're flexible on.
I've never seen anything.
Like what's the explanation? You've been and watch.
Primaries, fair of primaries.
I think they're crave an addiction to power over premier.
You know you did my biography. I mean I love public service. That's clear. Every senator and House member I talked to that's in a slightly marginal they all talk about. I was talking to one senator the other day. You raise all this money, you spent all this time working, and you hate the job. Really, so do what you want to know. At least fifty percent of the time,
I get calculations about politics. I love politics. You weigh equities and the trade offs, but you literally spend all this time running around the country raising millions of millions of dollars with people you hope you sometimes you don't want to talk to ever again for a job you hate.
It, doesn't they hate the job.
A lot of people think a lot of part of Washington is specifically on the legislative side, is broken.
Well, they're frustrated, but that doesn't mean they hate it, right, I mean, I think they're frustrated. They went there with good intentions.
No no, no, no, that's a good catch. Hate it's wing over and spilling over to the other side of the tracks. They're beyond frustrated because it doesn't do. They came to do stuff and with earnest interest. We may not agree on, but real earnest interest. And I worked with Republican senators and members of cars and Democrats. But it's just like broke, it's a broken institution that doesn't perform.
Who do you see is the rising stars in the Democratic Party?
Rom Well, there's a lot of talent, you know, once you start naming names.
Can I name some names?
Yeah?
I mean, just to get your reaction. Sure, Corey Booker.
We were mayors together, very eloquent, beyond eloquent, understands both big cities and a big state.
Talent Gretchen Whitmer.
Big fan of Gretchen, and I think she's managed if and again I don't mean to look to politics, but she managed a purple state effectively and dealt with the legislative branch and made it. I think a was kind of people forget this when everybody talks about the politics today. When she says is pay the damn build the damn roads, I mean she caught the mood of frustration. Well, Josh Shapiro, we were, you know, not only texting yesterday, but he
called me on Tuesday. We were having a conversation. I'm a fan as well.
Corey Booker is black. Obviously, you have Gretchen Whitmer, She's a woman. Josh Shapiro is Jewish. Do you think they could be elected?
Yeah? You you know, so you cut it off there. I was thought, you so let me. I am going to go, so let me say why I think so? As Okay, rom Israel Emanuel I got elected in the north side of the city of Chicago. The predecessors that had the seat before me, Dan Rossenkowski, Roman Pucinski, Franken Nunzio, Mike Flanagan, present whole There's Mike Quigley and Rob Legoyevitch. That's Chicago, right, but no, no, which name does not
fit in there? Yeah, Ram israelimant. It was a two percent Jewish community and when I ran for Congress, President Obama used to tease me I was a Birther before anybody I had showed my birth certificate. They had to proved that I was born in the country I could serve,
and it was an issue. And it was only two The district was only two percent Jewish, and it got ugly because I was running principally against a Polish woman in a Polish district and some of her backers said some ugly things about my Judaism, and say, I'll say to you what I have said. Then I know the people. I met him in their l stops. I met him on their front stoops, good people raising their kids to know right from wrong, and I trust their judgment and
it turned out right. When I was Ambassador to Japan, somebody had spray painted on the fence Nazi symbols, and the next day, still don't know who. Some neighbor went over and painted over. It never came forward. I've asked other so was there ugliness there was ugliness and there was a just generosity of spirit. So anti Semitism always existed always, It's just much more public and people think it's more acceptable.
Now.
That's one thing we did work for President Obama. So yes, there's more than a chance for African American to get elected. What's interesting on women? This is it political? I'm probably going to get yelled at, so I should watch myself.
But I'm here with you. What could go wrong? It's if you look at Europe Prime Minister Maloney in Italy, conservative margat Thatcher, conservative Chancellor Merkel, and Germany considered Christian Democratic Party in there put Scandinavia slightly as I So I could see in America where it's more likely the first female president comes out of the conservative philosophy than the progressive philosophy.
Why is that?
I just think it has more to do with the voters, etc. On the other hand, let me checkmate what I just said. A governor will have proven something that has a voice in the language of a chief executive. You know, a
legislator thinks operates. When you run for president and when you're president, you have to project three qualities strength, confidence and optimism and it's more likely to come from a chief executive than a legislature, and the public's more likely to accept a former chief executive as a president than a legislature. And I could be proven wrong, but that's my take.
Hi everyone, it's Katie Couric. You know I'm always on the go between running my media company, hosting my podcast, and of course covering the news. And I know that to keep doing what I love, I need to start caring for what gets me there, my feet. That's why I decided to try the Good Feet stores personalized arch support system. I met with a Good Feet arch support specialist and after a personalized fitting, I left the store with my three step system designed to improve comfort, balance
and support. My feet means and back are thanking me already. Visit goodfeet dot com to learn more, find the nearest store, or book your own free personalized fitting. I wanted to ask you about Pete Budhajedge because I think Pete is one of the most impressive politicians of modern times. I love the compliment, I love that he goes on Fox.
I think he's extraordinarily eloquent. And again, I'm not getting into identity politics, but I am just as a practical matter, could a gay man, in your view, be elected president of the United States?
Yes, really, I just you know, I got in a little trouble when I was ambassador. I know you found that hard to believe. There's a lot of characters for me. You yeah, but they're still an ally. Look at that three years later, there's still in a so you know, Japan's very conservative culture. I with other ambassadors, so I want to be very clear. It's like twenty of us when it came to LGBTQ legislation, kind of would let
a public notion. This is right before the G seven happens in Hiroshima and they finally passed like their first piece of legislation on LGBTQ rights just basically no discrimination permitted. And it was always interesting to me that in Japan, like eighty some percent were pro gay marriage, but the legislative, the diet, their parliament had yet to pass it and still hasn't yet. In the United States, gay marriage is permitted by law, yet we don't have close to eighty
percent for it. So in many ways our legal and political systems, we're ahead of our public opinion. They're their public opinion was ahead of their legal and political systems. So my own take is it is doable, but I think there's going to be a comfort level that has yet. And I know I'm gonna get yelled at, oh blah blah blah, But you're asking me a political question, so I'm giving you a political answer, not my personal views. Somebody that led the effort in both Chicago and Illinois
for the recognition of marriage equality. But I think politically it's going to happen. Just don't think it's going to happen immediately.
Another person that people are speculating about is Gavin Newsome, and that's nothing new, but he has a podcast and I'm curious how you feel wrong about him, and.
Biting taping with him tomorrow, so I feel very good. His guest selection is brilliant, you know, he.
Said, other than you, he's had people like Steve Bannon, Charlie Kirk. People think it's making a play to be, you know, less progressive, kind of open crossing the aisle whatever however you want to describe it, you know, And there's this sort of whole philosophy I think illustrated by Bill Maher's visit to Donald Trump in the White House, like how much do you engage with the other side?
And I'm just curious about first of all, you know, Gavin having those people on his podcasts and Bill Maher going to dinner with Donald Trump and saying he was gracious and he's not a crazy guy. He just plays a crazy guy on TV. Now he was critical about other things, but basically saying, listen, we've got to reach
across the aisle. And you know, if you truly believe democracy is at risk and the things that are being done are morally corrupt, what is the best way to approach it being conciliatory or just you being the resistance.
You are asking a middle child of three boys, because I used to say the middle children wrote a book War or Peace. We could do either. So let me just you know, I'm going to give you a story, an anecdote to illustrate a point. I was one that convinced President Obama to put Ray la Hood, Republican congressman from Illinois, in his cabinet. Now, Ray and I became dear friends. Why we used to fly back after congressional votes, and he was always trying to catch a flight to Peoria.
We'd land and ohere and one time he's trying to make a short connection and I was like at eight C and he was like at twenty eight. So I went back. I said, hey, Ray, you got to catch that flight. I said, when you take my seat, I'll just because I'm going to just take the train home.
And then we started up this friendship. That friendship led not just to Ray getting the cabinet slot and we're still dear friends, but more importantly, every other Wednesday when we were in Washington for votes, he would have six Republican congressmen. I would have six Dimorans. So we used to do private dinners quiet. When I say private, just upstairs, ties down, sleeves rolled up, and we just let at it. And it was six d's six hours and it was
different every time. And there's a lot there's friendships there, and we built friendships. There's not a profile story that's done in my tenure that Senator Dan Sullivan, Republican from Alaska, Susan Collins is a good friend in that effort Todd Young out of Indiana. So I do believe in not only keeping those channels open. A lot of those people when things have happened or asked for clarity or talks to discussions. Also true about you know, Alan Simpson who
just passed away. So I don't think you can you can have disagreements, I don't you want to use the cliche or you could disagree without being disagreeable, but that's kind of an apropos distinction. And not only and then also for politics, because I mean, if you don't have communication, you're gonna have misunderstanding and that can lead to a
bad place. But also sometimes you're gonna build up in your head of perception and they're gonna explain to you, A, that's not the motivation, and B here's my actual bottom lines. So it's kind of yes and no, and it's both and we'll have you know. And if we're going to disagree, it's okay. We'll just go slug it out on election day. That's okay. But there's other things that when you cross a line of certain things and they're principled, no, lie, that's it. And so you I can't give you here's
a hard and fast rule. I suppose if I say that, and then here's my hard and fast rule. Right, always have a line of communication that people know how to talk to because then no, there's no misunderstandings. And I'm thinking in the context of one of either House to Senate or White House to the legislative branch. And you know, worst case scenario, I say something to you which you don't want to hear, and you say something to me I don't want to hear. That's the worst case center.
So you would have dinner with Donald Trump if he invited.
I probably bring a food taster. But yeah, for him, yeah, yeah, I would sit down with him. You know, if he says something, and I would tell you. But nobody's ever described Rama Manuel as shy in reserve. I tell him what I think, and I think what he's done in the divisiveness of America at the very time. I think what he's done on these tariffs and what it's done to families is horrible. At every great juncture in America when we've had divisions, we've had been blessed by presidents
who've found our foundation of common sense. And I think one of the there's no let me say this also is when I lived for three years overseas, there is nothing I see around the globe that scares me for America. But you go overseas. I learned a lot about Japan. I learned a lot about the end of Pacific. You know what I learned the most about America. And there's nothing that scares me about the future that if we're organized can and have a consensus about our interests in
this country that were unstoppable. And it's one thing, you know, I want to tell you what I actually one thing is I'm thinking about I think this well and I wrote about it in two thousand and five. I think the country needs universal national service, Katie, our generation, we have a different runway.
Who's the general whom Crystal and there's others, but he is really championing.
I had him actually in Chicago for Chicago Stories podcast I did and it was that was my podcast when I was mayor, and we talked about this and I'm and the reason I say it is diversity is not a guaranteed strength has an incredible potential, but it also could be an adversary. Our adversaries are actually trying to divide America. And if you don't have an agreement on the foundation, the diversity doesn't work for you. If you do,
it's incredible strength. And when I looked at like the Abraham Lincoln and the Ronald Reagan aircraft carriers that were in Japan when I was there. Started under round regular foreign citizens can serve our armed forces or in their citizenship. And I did a citizenship ceremony seventeen individuals, eleven countries,
three continents. Here are these people from the African continent, Latin you know, South America, except other parts of the world, into Pacific serving America's interests, it's national security, it's ideals, and weren't even citizens. And yet on that ship that has aircraft carriers five thousand plus people, it's like a little city there was seeing there was people from all part walks of life, all parts of the country, all faiths, but with a purpose and a mission and an agreement
on their values. That's what the country needs. And I were not just in you know, this ship of state, except were more than just an aircraft carrier. I think what the country needs is that experience. Were a kid from the South side of Chicago and an individual from rural Arkansas where they're doing something together and it doesn't have to be just a uniform. You can be and teach for America. You can be doing an environmental cleanup. You can do literacy, get us out of our silos. Well.
So this is where both Iran and I don't mean to do this, So don't if you have stock and meta. But social media Facebook are dividing us. China, Russia and Iran are trying to exacerbate our differences. Social media has not brought us together. It has broken us down into little, little different categories. We have adopted that language and that idea, and we need to find what brings us together. And I think nothing does it like an experience, And I
do believe. And then I say, this is a father with both a son active duty in the Navy and a daughter on reserve. There is something unifying to that experience that will be with them not just their time, but the rest of their lives. And rather than have a generation growing up on defining what the rights are, I like them to actually spend a little time also understanding appreciation with theirs responsibilities are. And I think that would make America a much stronger country. And then there's
nothing China's doing that intimidates me. Once we get that worked out, do.
You think that would ever happen?
Yes? Really, yeah, But it requires an oval office leadership. Look, President Obama set up AmeriCorps in the first I think it's seven months of President Obama's tenure. We doubled. This was when Ted Kennedy was ill. He and John Mccainaanna Bill. We doubled the support for national service, both Peace Corps, AmeriCorps, et cetera. Absolutely. Now, I particularly have a bias towards
the Armed services because of the needs. But I don't think a uniform and I do think it should be a mandatory six months of public service to the country, to your community, yes, and I do think the country would back it up.
You mentioned President Obama. I'm sure you guys are still good friends. I mean, what does he think of what's going on wrong?
I spent two years speaking for hum going to do it now, but I based on everything I know about his values, his interests, his beliefs, He's I'm sure fit to be tied about where we are both as a country, what we are doing to ourselves. This is self inflicted right now, nobody's done anything to us, So just take a step back. Tina hasn't done anything. Dorkorrea hasn't done anything. The biggest challenge we have in the world right now is America's credibility shot. You can't do squat without trust
and credibility. We took our allies and treated him like crap, and they were poised to double down on America and double down on our collective interests, and we spit in their face. It's crazy.
Why do you think Trump's doing what he's doing? You know, I think a lot of That's what I.
Think President Obama would say, But he's here, he can speak for himself.
Tell him he needs to do. Tell your yoga tones the instructor to call Barack Obama. Why do you think he's doing a lot of the stuff he's doing with tariffs, with you know, putin you know, all these different things. Everyone I think is really scratching their heads, like, what is the endgame? What is the point? Why are you doing this?
No, it's interesting to me, So let me do one of You know, having been in the White House for eight years of my life, the one thing he talked constantly about was tariffs. The one thing they couldn't do is tariffs. The one thing he said, will never no no. Project twenty twenty five is the one thing they knew how to execute, which I happen to think gives credit to the O and B director void. So it's weird to me that the thing he said mentioned most they
had no idea what to do about. It's the most chaotic, disorganized, disruptive and on goal I've ever seen in politics, and has exposed the President of the United States is very weak and not consistent and if the mark could go sideways one day, he'll change his opinion and has shown all the vulnerability, no strength, and no consistency. On the other hand, the one thing he said I have nothing to do with that never never is the only thing
they've executed with some kind of precision. So it's like a split personality to me, that's one which one did they either twenty twenty five, All the cuts, all the things that they're operating, all the people they are getting rid of, and the way they're going about it and freezing and tacks on universities, I can just go through the whole list with you. But that they's shut down during the campaign. How many times did he say in the campaign Trump the tariffs the most beautiful word, and
he said it everywhere. I'm going to raise tariffs because tariffs. We're going to solve measles. From what I know, they can have that tech every day. Tariffs were going to solve every problem. You had a problem tariffs. You had this problem for tariffs.
Well, he didn't believe them about Project twenty twenty five.
Then I didn't believe it ready breaking news. I didn't believe it word he said. And but to me, what's weird? He mentioned it all the time, and there was no strategic thought at all around it. The one thing he never mentions that I have nothing to do with is the one thing that there was strategy around. That's what's weird. So two strategy that's George Bush. Yeah, okay from Saturday Night Life. Uh no, he actually said, I know he did. Then they carried it out and made a kind of
a nameplate. But the second thing is, and here's to me, what's so a component of what's reckless. We spent five years convincing both Europe and our allies into Pacific to ligne with US vis a vis isolating China, and they were all there. It was as as set a table as you could have, and we didn't really this White House specifically, the President did not appreciate how much China
was in the jailhouse. They were exporting their own domestic economic problems, destroying their other countries, local industrial economies, and countries who are willing to organize around the United States and follow America's leadership. And now we're in a situation China gets a get out of jail card, we put ourselves back into jail, and we've made ourselves the problem. And China does it looks like the good, responsible adult, and we look like the drunken adult walking around.
Which will lead a lot of countries into China's arms.
Well, now we lead them into China's arms, lead them away from standing so solder with us. I'll give you one specific example. We spent I spent a lot of time on this. Our export controls of high technology against China, had Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and the Dutch standing socihoulders shoulder with the United States, and China felt it we set
them back. Now a week ago, South Korea and Japan having spent lots of hours building that alliance with the United States at Camp David, we had an accomplished and though it was historic, China, South Korea, and Japan are aligning both their foreign policy and their economic interests against the United States. We're isolated and Samsung, one of the biggest producers of chips in the world, just to cut a deal with the Chinese company that is against the
interests of the export controls. And why did that happen? Because nobody trusts the United States and right when you needed allies most we don't have any allies. Were the enemy, were the problem, And this didn't have to happen. It just this did not have to happen. That's what's so weird. It's literally we treated friend like foe, and we treated foe like friend. Putin is sitting over there and stole the president. Yes, I love your ceasefire, except for these
twenty five conditions. And so you know, in the name of his Orthodox Christian church, he bombed people on Easter in Ukraine, killed thirty four people on Easter. It's a very Christian thing to do. And Putin knows there's no responsibility from the United States. Did you ever think your journals, you and I collectively here, what do we got about sixty years in watching or participating in the public lass. Okay, oh yeah, we're not going to do a real math. Okay,
we're going to do it. Did you ever think in your lifetime the United States at the United Nations would vote with Russia, China, Belarus, North Korea, and Iran and all yeah, okay, well it just happened, and against England, France, Germany, Japan, Korea, Australia.
We aligned ourselves in both principle and politics with Russia that represses and kills people, China that sent the vegas into camps and represses people, North Korea, belarusa has no freedoms and arrest and kills people as their own citizens. And all right, that's what we do. I knew. I if somebody had told me that was going to have I said, you take a cup and get it to the lab. Give me a break.
What okay? So what the hell? Why? Because I've been talking to so many people who are experts on strong men and authoritarian governments, and is there an explanation other than the fact that Donald Trump wants to be a dictator?
No? See you not? You kay, because it is your podcast and I'm not allowed to do that. But no, I'm not going there. There was always a short changing that it was just an affinity for styles of autocrats. There is that there is a component. I mean, look, he says, I like, g look how he controls one point four billion people. So there is an affinity for this.
You mentioned Victor Orbon during the debate.
Okay, but he also said that President Putin and him gone through a lot together. Who knew they were dating? Okay, but don't underestimate the philosophical agreement he does it. I mean, I've said this literally three months ago and a piece in the Post. He has a strategic alignment with them about spheres of influence. That's all the only way you
can explain Greenland, Canada, Panama and that whole idea. He believes Latin in Central North America and Central America and South America are America's sphere of influence into Pacific, that's China's pond. Europe, Well, keep going until it is not comfortable. And he he agrees with that. So does he stylistically like the strong man? Yes? Does he like the fact that they have critics get arrested, Yes, he does, but he also philosophically agrees with them. And here's the thing.
More land, more influence, more power.
Yeah, and it's an old politics. And here's what he doesn't understand. One. Putin and g are laughing at himse they're good at this game. This is not America's game. Hasn't been America's game a long time, over one hundred years. Our game is what we just did. The reason look, Poland, the Czech Republic, Lithuania, Finland, Sweden moved west into NATO. NATO didn't move east. They moved west because they prefer freedom versus the Russian bearer. They know it firsthand. They
don't want it. Okay, he doesn't appreciate that, has no sensibility that. And on China, the reason our allies are working with us because they need a want and desire, a counterweight to an uncontrolled, untethered, uninhimbered China and America, through our allies, they're not burdens. They're force multiplayers at every level. The number one foreign investor in the United States of America US history for two hundred Japan four years in a row. One million Americans work for him.
Forty eight percent of the investments are all in manufacturing. The single largest purchaser of American treasuries, which we're going to need a lot of Japan. Know what do we do spit in their face? Nope, you're going to see this what you know what your mother used to say, what goes around comes from right? How many times you hear that?
How are you've gotten too big for your purchase?
Yeah? And he's and he's now going to learn what it means. And America's alone, and he thinks he's going to play their game. That's not our game.
And you don't think this is going to end well.
No, I don't. I don't see how it can.
Because he tries to turn bad qualities into good qualities. You know this, he'll come unpredictable, you know. And you I know you've said he's a terrible negotiator.
But will you tell me he negotiated a deal with China and not one thing happened in it. That's a bad deal. He tried to He negotiated with North Korea? Not why? Because he wants it more than them. Tell me how?
Let me ask you how Bannada, Mexico? And how's inflation going?
Day one? How's you the peace in Ukraine? Day one? He wants to deal better than Putin. Some Putin knows it.
Hi, everyone, it's me, Katie Couric. You know, if you've been following me on social media, you know I love to cook or at least try, especially alongside some of my favorite chefs and foodies like Benny Blanco, Jake Cohen, Lighty Hoyke, Alison Roman, and Ininagarten. So I started a free newsletter called good Taste to share recipes, tips and kitchen mustaves. Just sign up at Katiecuric dot com slash good Taste. That's k A t I E C O U r I c dot com slash good Taste. I
promise your taste buds will be happy you did. Why do you think people still just worship him? I think there's a lot of Americans still do.
Yeah, you know, because I do think this gets back to kind of where we started on electoral politics.
And the Democratic Party.
Well, yes, about the Democrats and yes, So my take on twenty twenty four, Katie is there's two parts to it, or three rather one. When seventy percent of the country thinks it's heading in the wrong direction, that's just structurally against an incumbent. It got worse from Afghanistan and the more President Biden kept saying, oh the economy's good. The economy's good. The headwinds went from twenty miles an hour to seventy miles an hour. Second below that. I kind
of think of it as two races. So President Biden's nine down, Kamala Harris gets tapped. She runs on the economy all right through the debate, and she goes to plus three. That's a she had an eleven point swing. That's not a statistical error. The day after the debate, it's like a schizophrenia. She goes from the economy to democracy. Now she cared about democracy, which you and I both do. We were yes on a low I can't speak for how you vote, but I can speak for me why
we dropped? What got us eleven point twelve point swing? I have no idea third, which is then to the core of your question, which is there are three things in the last twenty years that I think change for America. I think this again gets to the core question of what I care most about, which is In two thousand and three, President Bush leads the country to a war of choice based on a lie there was no yellow
cake from Niger. Still never Thousands of young men and women lose their lives and their livelihood, no needes, no arms, arms, and we spent a trillion dollars on a failed experiment built on a lie, and not one person ever held accountable for the worst foreign policy disaster in American history.
Five years later, there's this massive financial meltdown. People lose their homes, and the fat bankers are asking for the demanding their bonuses, and not one of those sobs go to jail, and they're still like impervious that they shocked that nobody would give them their bonus. And people have no homes, they have no livelihood, they have no equity
left for their retirement. So twice in a short period of time, both a lie and liar loans destroy people's lives, and nobody in the elite or in the establishment is held accountable. During President Bombas's tenure, I argued for this old testament justice that I believed we should have done before healthcare. But that's why the present could pay big bucks to make big decisions. Fast forward later, twelve years later, you have COVID and we're running and it's the most
disruptive thing in people's lives. As I often said that COVID was bad for the body and not really great for the body politic either, and schools got disrupted, work habits got disrupted, people's just everything got turned. And Democrats went from the anti establishment against the war against bankers to scientists telling people how to live their lives closer. Schools just sit in the corner. This is what science. When I grew up in a medical home, you get
a cut, you get a second opinion. And these scientists walked around like they were experts. They had never seen anything like this. Do you know this? I care deeply about this. Six months in we were and seek and I had massive arguments about this as former mayor with eighty four percent of the kids are from poverty. What are you doing closing schools? These kids are at home, no education, and we're seeing the consequence of it. And so you tell me why. As he said to President Trump,
I will be the instrument of your rage. And people are angry, and you and I are doing this. In New York this interview, right not far from here, a ceo was shot killed. People cheered the killer. There was no like what happened to empathy. That tells you they never even met the ceo. They don't know and even some elected officials said, well, you can understand people's killing. And that's so when we think of politics, Well you study this college versus non college, urban versus rural, male
versus female, black versus white. Well, I'll give you the biggest divide, establishment versus everybody else. And the everybody else is sick and tired of established walking around because they basically got three big things wrong and they feel like no culpability or accountability or which is like what I would do. I'm sorry we messed up. Not I didn't agree with the Iraq war. I was on the other
side of the financial piece. But literally people have seen the elite never held accountable and domin.
How do you hold people accountable for COVID? I mean, you know, I think people made their best decisions based on the information they had. And you'd be singing a very different song if a lot of kids had died of COVID but they just going to school.
But here's of course I would. But it was self evident within six months.
You're saying that data the data was.
Well, first of all, we closed the schools for two years. The data is evident. We're now at the worst reading and mass scores in thirty years, full stop. It's also evident kids that are in red states that open schools earlier are slightly better than kids that grew up in blu states and cities. Just it's a fact. You look at it, you get argued out. Third, within six months, it was getting to be very clear that if you didn't have pre existing conditions and you weren't elderly, the
severity of COVID was very limited. It was very clear among young kids almost zero.
Let me ask you, why do you think the establishment that you blamed for this was so slow to realize this? I mean, what was in it for them to keep kids out of school?
Well, first of all, there's a tonal piece, let alone substantive. Okay, totally. You said, look, we don't have all the data, but what we're looking at, and a lot of people I get early on information, but a year into it you had patterns of information. You also, on the other hand, I don't mean to absolve the scientist. You had a president of United States talking about lysol and other things, and so you were running against the person with the
biggest microphone each Bleach. I couldn't remember it was Bleacher myself, thank you for the ten yard penalty for being the wrong guest. So that to me was I do think. I'm not saying that people had a nefarious motivation, but there was no sense that we were in uncharted territories, no sense that this is our best guest, and it was a guess. And when the data started becoming overwhelming, we didn't want to change our guests. So that's the
rear view mirror. Now what's the windshield. I would be immediately going into one on one tutoring for kids that are behind, so you have to stay afterwards, We're going to have longer school days as it relates to reading time and math times until we catch up, including summer, so we don't let the summer read what's called the summer slide set in.
Is that what Alabama and Mississippi are doing.
One of the things they have done is both the the times have been more concentrated on topic. That's one kind of common theme. Two early intervention common theme, third back to fundamentals common theme, and using one on one time is a common theme. So yes, but there's patterns of success here, or rather not success success against the tide.
But we need a national emergency. Now, when you go back to Ronald Reagan's A Nation at Risk Bloom report, then all the way to President Bush's Leave No Child Behind, President Obama's Race to the Top, President Clinton's Teachers of Excellence hundred thousand, everybody has had a touchstone of education reform and accountability that step by step over thirty years, we saw improvement for certain communities. We were at the
top tier of international standards. Other communities, it was incremental but steady progress in the right to lace. We are at a thirty year reading loan, a thirty year mathful. Do you have that sense of emergency? Do you have that sense of crisis? You're shaking A. I don't think you could.
I do.
But do you think hearing out of the national leaders, No, oh, okay, I do. I know you do. And yeah, I wouldn't be here if I didn't know you share that. Yeah, and there's no sense. Robert Reagan called together. There was the report on a Nation at Risk.
Well they got rid of the Department of Education.
Well they've starved it. President Bush did Leave No Child Behind, and the accountability and the testing, etcetera. You could have reformed that, but we threw it out.
People hated that, well, they hated it because we went from to the test.
Versus testing to teach. Testing was an information to inform teaching, and we were teaching to the test. That said, you didn't need to throw it all out. It's pretty clear that started a bad cycle. Margaret Spelling has done some really good, interesting work on this. President Obama had races at the top, but everything led to one place improvement
on reading a mass course. To me, we are in that emergency moment now, and a president with a modicum of interest would call an emergency meeting say Okay, we're going to fight about taxes, we're going to fight about tariffs, kids reading, no politics, here's what we're going to have to do, and then hold the governors accountable for a ninety day plan on what they're going to do on one on one tutoring, basics, et cetera. But what do we do close Department of Education or starve at defunds.
That's that's our answer to China.
I want to ask you a couple more questions, and I'm going to let you go because I've been You've been so generous with your time. Wrong, But I want to ask you about Oh, good, good, I'm glad I could be here for you.
Yeah, I left my Blue Cross and Blue Shield card.
At the front desk, you know, for the rest of this administration. And perhaps if you listen to Steve Bannon another Trump term on a scale of one to ten, how nervous are you about the damage he could continue to do?
So he has been president for eighty days. You got two hundred weeks left. So think of it that way. In eighty days, he's taken eighty years worth of work of building credibility through Democrat Republican presidence, Democrat Republican congresses, and he's severely damaged it. The single greatest crisis we have is not Chinas. Nobody believes or trusts America anymore.
So you're talking about the international stage.
Right, Well, that's one. I also think it's also true here at home. I think it's very true at home. And so when you say to me the core question not just internationally, but it's such an impact on what we're trying to do economically here at.
Home, but also democratic norms and institutions, you know, like saying he's going to investigate Krebs because Chris said he didn't think the election was rigged totally. Uh, you know, weaponizing the Justice Department something he railed against all these things that are really you know, not listening to judges or be the little judges I'm talking about, like internally, Ron, well, you know, obviously internationally that's a huge concern. And I can see how your view has been expanded by your
experience being an ambassador. But what about here at home?
Here at home, his assessment of the problems is not always wrong, likes it relates to the potential to bringing manufacturing jobs or have His solution is worse than the illness you and I learned. At least I learned three equal branches of government, not one, not one among all equals. Nope, that's not what we learned. I learned three equal branches of government. One branch controls perse strings and sometimes sometimes
when they're doing their job. And the court very specifically is going to have to as he said, called balls and strikes. Well, we're going to find out, you know, whether he can see.
But aren't we going to find out? And if Donald Trump can hear, Yeah, that's going to be a case like what I did there.
Yeah, I did I saw that. I got it. Yeah, whether you can hear the crowd booing, but.
No, hear what the Justice Justice is saying.
I understand. Well, take a look at what he's done with the court as it relates to the person in Nel Salvador. So, you know, I think this is and this will have ramifications beyond. You know, every president has a tenure and then they have a legacy that's left behind that is like a bomb blast that reverbrates past the specific time they serve. And this will have a lasting impact at home and obviously abroad and in the economy.
So scale of one to ten on the worry meter, you.
Know, it's so I would I'm very worried. Although I don't underestimate the resilience of the American people. But it takes it does, don't I mean, I know you rolled your eyes. I don't know if people can see it roll it, Okay. I saw it come calling, Yeah, yeah like that. It looked very familiar to some of my children at the kitchen table, and I says, oh god, here it was Dad again. No, the American people, you know,
when called to, they can It's an incredible resilience. They haven't been called to, and it is also they have. So I think the ramifications of what Donald Trump's are doing is grave and serious, not just for now but for years later. But there is a core piece to the American people, which when there is that leadership, they will answer not just the call the responsibility it comes, but they have not been challenged to do that.
And you see of that.
I see it, you know, I see a lot of it in local not just politics, in local communities, I do. I see people coming together, you know.
But you also see protests.
Yeah, protests is one manifest but I see people when you see a family hurt in your community, people volunteer to do things, et cetera. So I do, and I see people across faiths, across class, across race, across gender working together and doing things in common purpose. The you know, in a weird way, having been national and then local as a mayor, there's more common purpose locally than there is national. I used to jokingly sayd DC's you know,
Disneyland on the Potomac, Okay. But you go to a city, you go into a community in that city, there's more purpose, There's more unifying kind of texturing and threads upon buying people that has been lost, which is why I believe so firmly in the kind of almost antibody that National Service would provide because we look. I say, I've been very influenced by this book of Boys Men by Richard Reeves and John Hay's book, you know, as it relates
to technology. Anxious, Yeah, anxious generation that we have, this generation slipping through our fingers. And I think that not that National Service in and of itself will solve, but it does. It's the best anecdote and kind of biotic against this kind of aimlessness and or.
This feeling that the future is it's not going to be better, you know, that the future is depressing and kind of a why bother attitude?
Well, I mean they have a phrase in China, the generation. I forgot the exact phrase, but it says lying down generation. We in America have kids lost to substance abuse, lost to technology, and it's just or just lost. Yeah, And there's a there's not the hope in their eyes and the hope in their voice, and it's aimless. And I think we need that is there's something in the spirit of America that can be renewed, should be renewed, and with that, there's nothing that will hold America back.
You are someone who is intimately familiar with the inner workings of the White House, and I'm curious. I know you're not in there now, but as an observer and someone who says, you know, the only people around the president the only four words they know are what what did you say? Yes? President?
There are limited grasped with the English language is limited to four words, yes, sir, mister president. So which you know me? President? In the start, those were not the fore words I used to say.
I'm sure, I'm sure. And you look at the cabinet meetings and everyone goes around praising Donald Trump. I mean it's it's freaking.
Including his doctor that tells you his golf game is.
Great, right, yeah, victorious golf game that city plays that he's victorious. I like Rick Riley's book Commander in Cheat, which is all about Donald Trump's golf habits. But I guess my question to you is, who do you think is pulling the strings right now? Do you think it's Stephen Miller, who is said that he was the great kind of puppeteer behind the scenes? If there is one, well.
I mean one is Chris Voyd over office management by Omby. There's no doubt when you look at how one piece of the White House is the decimation of what they quote unquote called the deep state. It's been methodical. They've been thinking about this for four years, every step, every day, every penny, every person like method the tariffs is all Donald Trump, chaos everywhere, and the guy that's methodically executing the attack on quote unquote whatever the deep state is Chris Voyd.
I want to ask you in closing about the Democratic Party. I know we talked about that for a moment, but what I want to ask you about something recently said to describe the way Democrats communicate, you said, quote, we use language to feel good about ourselves, not to communicate. We all act like we're trying to become an adjunct professor at a small liberal arts college. It's insane.
Okay, I'm from Chicago. How many people do you think at a local diner say the word oligarch? What's wrong with rich? Now? I get the spirit of what is being done out there, and you can see by the crowds, but the marketing material calls oligarchs. You've got to understand when the American people live their lives. You got to understand how they live their lives. And you have to find and I'll give you a classic. I hate this philosophy. I hate this whole term. I hate the whole thing.
As a person whose uncle was a Chicago co we're going to defund the police. And when you call them on it, they said, well, this doesn't mean what it says. So you want you want to know why we're losing black voters, Hispanic voters, Asian voters, Silicon Valley because we talk in a way in which people don't under We communicate that you.
Love me until you said Silicon Valley.
We lost Silicon Valley.
But that's not because people are saying the word oligarch.
No, well, I don't know. They may be the oligarchs we're talking about, right, Yeah, But we talk, and we not only talk, but we communicate in a way that says more about how we feel about ourselves and trying to persuade somebody, and the first thing you should do is talk and communicate a set of ideas and values of where people live their lives, which is what anomates me. And I think this is the most important thing. You and I were just talking about aimlessness, losses, and loss
of hope. All people want is a shot at the American dream, and all they got is a shaft for twenty years, both parties and we owe them the decency, not a guarantee of a shot.
You sound like Bernie and AOC.
You know we started here. I don't know. Bernie talks about free community college. I did free community college at Free College. He talks about I did free community college in Chicago. I rose them, raise them in Wage. I did universal pre k. There are values that we hold. We may not agree on the means, but on the ends, in the sense of equity, in the sense of giving people a shot and a voice. Yeah, I mean, but when I was in Congress, it was my bill to
re import pharmaceutical drugs. Didn't report Cantada's crisis. Bernie and I worked on it together.
Do you think Bernie and aocre the future of the Democratic Party. They are tracting huge crowds. They are out there energizing people everywhere.
Well, I think people are energized. That's the part. A lot of people want to assume power. Starts in Washington. People already energized. They are putting a spotlight on it.
Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me, a subject you want us to cover, or you want to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world, reach out send me a DM on Instagram. I would love to hear from you. Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers are Me, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz, and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian
Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode, or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call, go to the description in the podcast app, or visit us at Hadicuric dot com. You can also find me on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hi everyone, it's
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