Processing Parkland

shooting at Parkland in Florida. And I'm just heartbroken, as I know you are every time you hear about another mass shooting. That's right, it's like a broken record, sadly, and it's happening far too frequently. I know that we're all devastated for the families in Parkland, Florida. We're seventeen people at Marjorie Stone and Douglas High School were killed

in February. Many others were injured, and of course the entire higher school and community completely traumatized when a nineteen year old former student at the school returned with an a R fifteen and open fire. I know this time is different. Has become kind of a cliche but this time really does feel different, um, namely because of how the students at the school have responded. They've been remarkable.

I talked to Mark Bardon, who is the father from Sandy Hook who lost his adorable son Daniel in that massacre, and we were trying to understand why this felt different, and I think it's because, as you mentioned, Brian, these high school students, they are smart, they're learning the issue, and they're making their voices be heard. So it's almost this built in advocacy group that has sprung up from this horrific tragedy. You're exactly right. I mean, they're pressuring

politicians on social media. They organized a national school walkout day, and also of course a march in Washington that's coming up on Saturday, March, two days after this episode drops. And that brings us to our first guest, Ali Sheehy. She is a senior at Marjorie Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, a really sweet, nice, kind of typical high school senior. Thinking about the things that high school seniors think about their future, how to get through exams, graduation,

prom all these rites of passage when this happens. But as you listen to her, I think you're going to realize how extraordinary she actually is. She was so gracious and open about her experience. It was very moving to speak with her and today, By the way, it's a two part episode. Our second guest is Shannon Watts, the founder of Mom's Demand Action, which is a group pushing for reform of our gun loss. She's another remarkable woman. She started Mom's Demand Action as a stay at home

mom with five kids, no political experience. She had some experiencing corporate communications, but like so many Americans, when she heard about this shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary in Newtown, Connecticut, she said enough, I have got to do something. So she decided to take action and decided to start this organization that has grown tremendously and accomplished so much in

just five years. Mom's Demand Action now has fifty chapters over a hundred thousand act of volunteers working to pass what they call common sense gun reforms on the state and federal level. You'll be hearing from Shannon a bit later in the show, but first our conversation with an extraordinary student from Parkland, Florida, Ali Sheehy. Hey, Ali, it's Katie Kuric. Can you hear me? Okay, yes I can. Very nice to meet you. Nice to meet you as well.

And this is Brian Goldsmith. Hey, Ali, it's nice to meet you. Thanks so much for coming on the show. Thank you for having me so Ali. Gosh, Um, it's hard to really figure out where to begin. You're eighteen years old, you're a senior in high school at Marjorie Stoneman Douglas High School. I guess I'm going to ask the question that reporters are told not to ask, but somehow I feel is appropriate given the situation. How are you doing? Um? I think right now all of us

are kind of doing the best that we can. It's getting used to our new normal that we have at our school and our community right now. And how would you describe that new normal? I don't really think that there's a way to describe it. There's just a wave of emotions that kind of affects everybody differently at this point, and we're just kind of trying to all get through it together because you don't know what the person next to you is thinking or going through, or how this

aspected them. It's just kind of a sensitive situation that we're all in right now. I'm sure you know everyone deals with trauma differently, and is it a fairly unified situation at the high school or if you've seen evidence of people kind of at each other because of this and dealing with emotion, you know, these very heavy emotions at the same time. I mean, for the most part right now at our school, we're all very unified, we're

all one family. But even in a family, you have fights between people, and right now, most of the conflict is between the political aspects of this kind of argument that we're having, with the left and the right and liberals and conservatives at our school having different viewpoints and different ways that they want to take this, And it's just something that's hard to see because this is not

the time to argue between ourselves. It's something it's a time that we all need to be together, and it's it's just angers me to see people arguing over something that we don't need to argue about. So Ali, before we talk about that terrible day and before we talk more about the aftermath, can you tell our listeners a little bit about your life before the shooting, about your senior year. I know you describe yourself as a happy, go lucky person. Before this, what were your interests and

activities and what's Parkland, Florida like? Um? Before this, I was focused on my senior year getting AP tests and

finishing that out. And the week before that, I was worried about my AP stack quiz that I had on Friday that I didn't understand anything that I was doing, so I was kind of studying really hard for that, and UM prom is coming up, So my friends and I we're kind of worried about that and which jess we're going on and what friends are coming with us, and what bus we're going on and sort of normal

high school things, right. And I also that day that morning, UM, I asked my best friend if she wanted to be my roommate in college. Where is where are you going to school? Alley? I'm going to UCF in this summer. And what's Parkland, Florida like? I mean, I know, it's about halfway between Palm Beach and Fort Lauderdale and it's

a fairly small, tight knit community. Well, we kind of describe it as the Parkland Bubble because it's really just a tight knit community of family and it's very family oriented. It's a city that families with small children moved to specifically because of the atmosphere that we have. The population is kind of small, and we have a plus schools, and it's just something that people come to feel safe at.

It's a safe city. So you expressed to our producers you are willing to talk about that day, and we don't want to read troum ties you Ali, So you

talk about whatever you're comfortable talking about. But as you mentioned, you were thinking about the prom, you were talking to your best friend about college, you were worried about an AP test, and then suddenly those concerns, which are legitimate for a high school senior, for any student across the country, but they became obviously something that I had no weight in your life. Tell us about where you were and what you witnessed and what that day was like for

you personally. UM My morning started out normally. I got up late because I didn't want to get out of bed because I'm not a morning person. Um. But I got to school, I hung out with my friends and the parking lot, and I asked my best friend to

be my roommate. I made a little sign and I said, will you be my Valentine but crossed out Valentine and wrote roommate and she said yes, and we had a big hug um and then we all separated and we didn't think any of a thing of it, and we just saw said a quick bye, see you later, and we went to our first period and the morning announcements came on and UM, our assistant principal came on for his usual normal UM morning announcements and he started talking

about like the protocols in our zones for fire drills, and we're like, oh, there must be a fire drill coming up later, And sure enough, second period, the fire alarm one goes off. We all walk out of the building, calmly, stand in rose, go back in. Ten minutes later, class continues.

Fourth period comes around and my teacher we kind of got halfway through class and we were in a project because we just finished reading Macbeth and we were doing a project on that, and she had to leave early because she had to drop her kid off at the doctor, so she had to drop us off in the auditorium because there weren't enough subs that day to cover uh, So we had a teacher from the freshman building come over with his class, and then we were sitting and

finishing up our project and we're kind of goofing around, and then the fire alarm went off again, and we were kind of confused because we didn't know why this would happen so close to the end of the day. So we got up, we walked outside, and we heard some pops. We didn't think anything of it, but then we saw kids running and screaming, and so we were like, oh,

this must be like a real fire. We should start walking faster um, and we picked up the pace, but then we were our auditorium is right next to the administration, like the office, and administrators were telling us to turn back and go back inside. So we ran back inside and we're like, this is weird. Why are we doing this? And for the first ten minutes we thought that this was a drill, like this was a code red jill.

But the more and more we thought about it, the more and more we realized why would they make a code red drill so closely end of school, Why would they not tell the teachers, and why would so many sirens be coming from outside? And I immediately started texting all my friends and trying to calm down the people around me, because kids that I've gone to school with for my entire life, basically we're breaking down crying. We all thought we didn't know if we were going to

make it out. And that's a very scary thing to think about. It's not something I ever want anybody else to text to their parents, because I know. I texted my mom and I said, I don't know if this is real, but I want to let you know I love you. And she responded back saying what and ten minutes past and I said, Mom, it's real. So you went back into the school after you had left the school.

We didn't actually leave like the school grounds. We were just outside of the auditorium, so we didn't It's one of those things that you drill for and teachers are told to put you back into the building when this happens. Where was your class before your teacher left early? I'm just curious, was your class in the area. No, I

actually moved closer to where it was happening. If she did not leave early, we would have been in the nine building, which is the furthest one away from where it happened, and we would have been in the backfield and already evacuated to Walmart when it happened. When you when did you realize, Ali, what had happened inside that school? It was when I started getting messages from my friends that were in that building saying, I'm I love you and it's real, it's happening. Like two kids in my

class were just shot and there's blood everywhere. So kids were texting you as it was actually going on. Did you know many of the students who lost their lives that day? Um? I knew a few. Um. Three of them were my grade. Um. One of them, Carmen, was in some of my classes, and one of the younger ones, one of the freshman's that passed away. Um, is on my little sister's soccer team, and the two coaches saw them every morning. Just hard to believe, isn't it? Mm hmm.

Is it hard to talk about this for you, Ali? Yeah, it's hard to listen. I can only imagine having to tell the story. I'm hesitant even to ask this, But did you know the shooter at all? I did. He was in grade before he got expelled. What can you tell us about him? Um? He was just Um the best way I can describe him. Was. He was a weird person that went up to anybody and everybody and

talked to them like he knew them already. And me, as a shy person that doesn't really like talking to people, it was kind of awkward and I'd always try to shuffle away whenever he came up to me. But he was very persistent and would talk about the most randomous things. And he was a kid that went to our middle school.

It's he had had problems all before. He had to bring a plastic bag to school because he couldn't bring his backpack anymore, so that they could see what he brought to school, because he was that much of a threat. Are you surprised that more wasn't done or disturbed that more wasn't done given the warning signs that seemed in retrospect to have been everywhere. I'm disturbed by it, definitely,

because this is something that should never have happened. But it's also something that I know my school did the most that they could have, given the laws and the rules that they're given as teachers. There was nothing that the school could have done. It was left to our government and our local police officers. But even though you were limited and it's just something that never should have happened.

We'll be taking a quick break and we'll be back with Parkland student Ali She right after this, and now back with Alie She in the math aftermath of this tragedy. I know your focus is on school safety, whereas I know some many of your classmates are focused on changing gun laws. So how did you decide to focus on this aspect of the issue. And I'm curious about if that's created any tension among your classmates. I don't think

it's tension among our classmates. For me personally, I'm not only talking about school safety, I believe and stronger and stricter gun laws. It's just that we already have a forefront for the gun laws. People. Those are my friends. Those people that are speaking out are students from my school. They I've known them forever. They're talking about it. They have a strong argument with them already, but we're kind of working in conjunction with them to get this full

spectrum of problems that need to be fixed. When you say that you're focused on school safety, what does that actually mean. Well, I've looked into it, and for fire jewels for our schools, I don't know if it's every county yet. I haven't done enough research, but we're required to have a fire drill once every month. That means that we have ten fire drills every single school years.

Since we've been in kindergarten, that has been something that has been drilled into our heads that it's an automatic response to get up and walk out of the classroom when that bell goes off. For code red drills, we don't practice them that that often. It's not an automatic response to get up and go to the safest corner of the room. It's something that in a moment that we haven't practiced as much as fire drills, that people freeze and they don't know what to do and they panic.

And I I've talked to people that were in the building. I know people that were in some of the rooms, and some of the people in those rooms that actually passed away was because they went for the window first instead of going towards the corner. Or people started going towards the corner, but they weren't completely out of sight from the window and the door, so they were out in the open and they got hit. And it's something that needs to become a second nature that a fire

drill is because it's unacceptable. It's even disturbing that we have to practice these kinds of things. But it's something that is our new reality. This is something that we've grown up with our entire lives. Like when Columbine happened, I was not even born, so that was something that the schools implemented as I went to school. I've grown up with this and it's something that definitely needs to be fixed on multiple levels. But right now we should

be fixing the problems that we have. It's just a big cluster of wrong right. And what what do you make of President Trump's recommendation that more teachers should be armed? How do you feel about that? Alley I that is the worst idea I have ever heard in my life. I absolutely eat that idea. It's once you're in that situation, you understand. But a swat team coming into your room, they have their guns drawn, they have they asked and are screaming at you to have their hands raised where

they can see them. And if my teacher had a gun, how are they supposed to tell that that person is the bad guy or the good guy. And another thing that I find very disturbing is how they're talking about doing it with having the gun locked away, and if it's locked away, you need to have the AMMO separate from it. And if it's locked away, this happened in six minutes. Six minutes is a very short amount of time. Six minutes is not enough time to protect your students

and make sure they're safe. Then go to yours guns safe, get out your stuff, and then ask my teacher that has volunteered their time to teach me, to make me into a doctor, into a lawyer, into a politician, into a baker, into anything that I'm going to do in my future, and then asked them to risk their lives for. That's not something they signed up for. There was legislation just signed in Florida that does a variety of things.

That annects a three day waiting period to buy a gun at bands so called bump stocks, that raises them inimum age with some exceptions to one. It also does make it easier to train and armed school employees. Um, what's your reaction to this legislation? Did you support it? It's it's a baby step in the right direction, and they're not listening to what we're actually asking for. They're kind of just pacifying what we're asking for and hopes

that we're going to stop. And I can tell you right now, we're not going to stop, because this has happened way too many times and I don't want my school to be another statistic in the school shooting list. Don't want that to happen. Ali, what are you actually asking for? We want to ban on the assault weapons because there had There's no way that that should have happened. There's no way that a nineteen year old that has a background like that should have gotten a weapon like that.

There's so many levels of what we want for stricter background checks and mental health screenings. They're offering more for arming teachers than they are for regular citizens on the streets, and that's completely ridiculous to me. How do you feel about President Trump's reaction to this? Did you appreciate that he invited students to the White House and do you think there's any hope that he will see things your way?

For the President inviting people to the White House to talk to him, I felt that was a big slap in the face because that weekend and a couple of days before that, he was here. He was where we all were. He was here to the point where students and teachers could talk to him, But instead he selected a few and brought them to him and in an environment that only he could control. And I didn't like that because he only selected a few voices of what

actually happened. You wrote a poem ally called Dear Mr President. UM one inspired you to write that, um it was the morning when he was in or near Parkland and he was not answering our calls to actually speak with him and have a conversation with him. It was also the morning that he wrote that the FBI failed us because they were busy with the Russian collusion. And that made me even more angry because he was sitting in his hotel room watching TV while all of us were

going to vigils and memorials and bearing our friends. That actually is so upsetting. That makes me cry thinking about you all in this cognitive dissonance between what you all were experiencing and what the President was tweeting. But can you read a little of the poem you wrote? Why don't you read actually the whole thing, because it's short enough that you can read the whole thing. And it's so good, So go ahead. My poem is called Dear Mr. President.

My friends have died, They are gone from our lives, Yet you sit there twiddling your thumbs. My friends have died, the life gone from their eyes, Yet you sit there talking anything but guns. My friends have died, and we've cried and cried, yet you sit there blaming them mentally ill. My friends have died, our voices pushed aside, yet you sit there. You sit there still. My friends have died and our tears aren't dried, yet you sit there watching

us plead. My friends have died. It's an issue nationwide. You sit there still. So how about you lead as a community forever unified? I asked you, sir, how did this happen to us? I invite you to learn to hear the story from inside, because if not now, when will the right time be to discuss that? Really? Uh spread? I think on social media your poem. What kind of

reaction did you get to your poem? I got a lot of positive There was a lot of people supporting and asking, tagging along with why hasn't anything been done so far? I also got a lot of negative feedback for people saying I was disrespectful to the president and that I was blaming him for everything that happened, which I didn't tend to do, nor do I want to. I'm just asking him why he didn't do anything. Elie.

I understand that you're an editor on your school yearbook and this is the first high school that has to document an event like this, and it's your book. So how are you covering this tragedy. It's something that we really have to be careful about. But as a group, it's kind of our own little family now because we talk about it a lot, and it's kind of a therapy,

therapeutic kind of thing. Um. Covering it is a little hard because you have to relive it every single time that you open that spread and look at it and read the story and look at the pictures. But something that we've all agreed on is that we're going to honor the way that they lived, not the way that they died. And I think it's very important that we document it because this is something that all of us are going to be able to keep for years. I know you're going to do have plans to go to

the march in Washington with your friends. What do you hope people will take away from this show of unity and the fact that so many people in cities all across the country will be marching and protesting on March. What do you hope the message will be and where do you go from here? I hope that it shows that we're not going to take this line down anymore, that this is something that has brought us all together and we're now questioning our government as to why they've

let it go on. And I hope this shows how we're not going to take it, that we're going to change it, and we're not going to shut up and be quiet while you guys take money from lobbyists and people that are trying to just control what goes on in the country, the one percent that's going to try

to control it, because that's that's unacceptable. I had. I went to a lunch with a couple of other student activists from park Land, and they said that one of their biggest priorities is to register kids to vote and register people to vote, and to get them to be motivated as n r A members can be and as gun rights advocates can be single issue voters. They want to turn a lot of other people on the other side into single issue voters. Is that the strategy that

you'd like to pursue as well. I definitely think that's so important because right now, I know our generation and the millennials before us haven't really shown out to vote most of the time. Our age group has been sort of not politically active. And as my APGLV teacher has told us time and time again, if you don't participate,

you don't get to complain. And I think that's very strong because we are participating now, We are using our voices, and we have the power to change it if we don't like it, and I think that's something that a lot of people don't understand. Or, as Gandhi said, be the change that you wish to see in the world. Yeah, that's painted on our wall in our school. Is anyone helping you, guys organize and figure out your strategy. Is anyone helping to pay your expenses, for example, to go

to the march on Washington. We've gotten a lot of support from all over, but most of this has been student driven, and we're gonna we want to keep it student driven because it's our voices that matter. I think that's actually very interesting. The girls I met also said they don't want this to turn into a corporate event. They don't want branding from companies. They want to keep it as pure as possible. We want to keep our emotions because that's what's gotten us this far. It's the

students voicing their emotions. Their feelings are experiences. This is something that we've lived through. This is not something everybody understands, and that's also something that we want to make sure that nobody ever has to live through this again. I don't think anybody should be happy that they had a second chance at life after a gunman came to their school. You know, as Brian mentioned, you describe yourself as a happy, go lucky person, and I'm just curious as we close here, Ali,

how this has changed you as a person. Would you still describe yourself that way? Or has something changed deep inside of you and even your outlook on life and even perhaps what you want to do um as as you get older and go out in the world. It hasn't really changed what I want to do. I've been set on becoming a doctor since I was ten um and I don't think that's something that I can be swayed from. But it's definitely changed my point of view

on who will listen. Because before, when everything else happened, I'd see it on the news, I'd send my thoughts and prayers, and I'd be I'd say to myself, I can't do anything. I'm a kid. I can't change adults minds. They won't listen to us. They're still not listening. Not all of them are listening to us, but we're trying our best. A lot of us are. Yeah, um, a few are still a little bit stubborn on how kids

can know so much information. But something I want to say about that is that we are students and we know that when you don't study, you fail your test. This is our test now, despite for change is our test now. And trust me when I say this. We've been up until four or five o'clock in the morning researching our laws, looking up our legislator is seeing how much money is donated, where the money is going and

coming from. Because we want to make sure that we know what we're talking about, Because we want to make sure that we have the answers to the questions that people ask us, because that's the most important thing I know your mom's with you in the studio, and we really wanted to have this conversation be the three of us, but I imagine she must be incredibly proud of you and the fact that you are stepping into this arena, which isn't easy because I'm sure all those negative tweets

and all those that negativity on social media is something you really never get used to. But I imagine your parents have been incredibly supportive and are incredibly proud. They're the most supportive people ever. Well, I think you're going to go on and do great things. I think you're going to be a wonderful doctor, but also just a wonderful citizen because you're willing to get out there, use your voice, and collaborate and unite with people who want

to see change in the world. And I just wish you all the best and so much luck, not only in this fight but in your life. And uh and we both Brian and I and everyone involved in this podcast really appreciate you talking to the us about this today. I know it's not easy, but you know, it's incredibly moving to hear you talk about what happened and where you go from here. So thank you, Ali, thank you for having me. Wow, that was a very intense conversation, and for me a very I don't know, Brian, I

know you said you thought I was moved. I was very moved. And I don't know if you can see behind my glasses, but I was actually tearing up with both sadness for Ali and her classmates in the community, but also tearing up because I was so inspired by the work she's doing and how she has transformed into this incredible activist. Yeah, she's with such humility too, you know. I was also struck by her when she said, we're students and we know that you have to study or

you fail the test, and this is our test. I don't know. That was so profound to me. It was, and I feel terrible that she's having to go through this, that she can't just focus on being a kid in her senior year of high school and thinking about her college roommate. But she's trying to turn this tragedy into a teaching moment for the country, and she is nothing

if not incredibly inspiring, a great example, you know. But I think it's also a few days after this happened, my daughter, who's in college, said I'm so scared, Mom, there's going to be a shooting here. So you can imagine kind of the anxiety level for kids everywhere when something like this happens. And that's why I think something's

got to be done. So speaking of that, UM, next up is there a conversation with Shannon Wats, the founder of Mom's Demand Action, and we're going to talk about the policy response to shootings like Parkland, what should happen not just in Washington but all over the country. Shannon Watts High, Shannon, I'm so happy to have you on our podcast. Thanks so much for taking the time. Thank you, Katie,

thank you for having me on. Why don't you remind people who may not know how Mom's Demand Action began, why it began, and where it began. I was watching the news December two thousand twelve and saw this just tragic news that there had been a school shooting in Newtown, Connecticut, and I remember I was folding laundry at the time and just thought, dear God, don't let this be as bad as it seems. And you know, obviously it was.

It was a million times worse than anyone could ever have fathom, ever fathom, and as a mom of five. That is how this issue impacted me. You know, when twenty six year olds and six educators can be shot and killed in the sanctity of an elementary school. UM, I just felt that it was finally time for me to get off the sidelines, specifically as a mom, and so I started a Facebook page and I had seventy

five friends at the time, seventy five Facebook friends. I was no social media phenomen but what happened through the power of social media was that suddenly I was inundated by strangers across the country who wanted to start a chapter. I hadn't even realized I had started an organization, and suddenly people wanted to start chapters of Mom's Demand Action where they lived, and we were often running. And here we are five years later. UM we're one of the

largest grassroots movements in the country. We have a chapter in every state, We have millions of supporters, and since Parkland, you know, we have hundreds of thousands of active volunteers. What was the action you were demanding at the outset?

You know, I didn't know much about organizing. UM. I was not politically active, and I really thought, okay, we needed to have a big march, not realizing that there had been this million mom march after Columbine in two thousand and very quickly, a lot of wonderful policy experts and members of Congress and even state lawmakers came to me and said, you know, what we really need is for women in particular to organize around this issue, to become a grassroots army that can kill bad bills and

support good bills and change corporate policy. Um and and that's exactly what we've done. Let's talk about that because I think, you know, sometimes these grassroots movements take root and take hold, and yet people don't hear about everything that's been accomplished. And by the way, I think this is such a great example of the power of social media for for good. You were able to create something just through your virtual relationships with all these like minded people.

So Shannon, five years later, tell us about some of the things that you've been able to do. So we had a call from the White House just a few weeks after we started, and they asked us to support what was called the Mansion to Me Bill, and that is a bill that would have closed a private sale loophole at a federal level in this country. And so that's what we focused on the first few months. Um, we all know that in April that bill failed by just a handful of votes in the Senate, and I

really thought, Okay, well, we've we've done everything we could. Hear, you know, maybe it's time to pack up our our things and go home. Can you explain what the private sale loophole actually is? Absolutely so in this country, if you buy a gun from a licensed dealer, for example, at Walmart or any dealer who has a license to sell guns, you do have to have a background check.

You do not have to have a background check if it is a private sale, and those are typically at gun shows or online or even in some states garage sales um and millions of guns are sold every year that way. And that is how dangerous people get ahold of guns very easily, domestic abusers and felons. I read I read a statistic just yesterday, Shannon that four two percent of US gun owners acquired their most recent firearm

without a background check. So this is happening all the time. Well, when the when the Brady Bill was passed in the nineties, no one ever imagined there would be this online market for guns. I know, it's crazy, isn't it. I mean, so many people and there's absolutely no regulation at all. Right, so we failed just by a handful of votes in the Senate um in April two thirteen, and and again, you know, I didn't know what would happen to Mom's

demand action at that point. What I didn't realize is that when you're working with so many type of women, there's really no going backward. There's going forward exactly. So you know, really our volunteers just intuitively pivoted to state houses and boardrooms, where we immediately began supporting governors who would pass this kind of legislation. In the wake of Sandy Hook. We did it in Delaware and Maryland and

other states. Actually, we've closed that private sale loople in eight states and Sandy Hook, bringing the total of states that have done that to nineteen. And we also have to kill bad bills in states. We have about a ninety three percent track record of killing n r A supported bad bills like guns and schools or guns on college campuses, permitless carry, and we have to show up to do that in state houses year after year. And we also pivoted to corporations, and we have made significant

changes in corporate policy. And since we started, everything from Starbucks to Chipotle to Target, and then since Parkland, nearly twenty companies have changed their gun policies. We'll talk about those companies, or you don't have to talk about all twenty, but a few of them and why it was so significant. You know, when lawmakers don't act to protect their constituents, it really is on companies to protect their customers. And it's also a really important lever that women can pull.

We make about eight percent of the spending decisions for our families, and so what we initially started doing was asking companies to prohibit something called open carry, which is legal and forty five states. Um. It used to be that you could bring your our fifteen into Starbucks when you've got a latte in those states. You can't anymore

because of our work. But what we saw after Parkland that was so interesting was that companies were stopping their discount programs with the n r A. And also we have seen companies raise the age of which you can buy a long gun. So many states allow you to buy a semi automatic rifle when you're eighteen years old. Even though you can't buy a handgun until you're twenty one. You can't drink, can't even rent a car, but you

can buy an a R fifteen. And we've seen several companies l being Dicks Orvis Company and others change that age to twenty one and again acting when lawmakers won't so. In Florida, in the wake of Parkland, legislation was passed and signed that did raise the age with some loopholes, to twenty one for buying guns, but not for semi automatic weapons. Right, can you explain to a sham what happened in Florida and whether you supported that legislation. We

you overwhelmingly that was really positive legislation. So it puts in place a red flag law. These laws are very important. We actually passed one in California after the shooting at UCSB and it allows families and police to petition a judge to get a temporary restraining order to remove the firearms of someone who seems to be a danger to

themselves or others. It also raises the age that someone can buy a long gun from eighteen to twenty one, and a long gun is anything from a hunting rifle to a semi automatic rifle, and it puts in place just some safety mechanisms that we know are proven to to prevent gun violence. It does allow districts to arm administrative staff if they choose to do so. And because we have a grassroots army on the ground, we can now go district by district and and convince them not to.

Why why is that so important? Because you know, I think people do hear this and some people just go crazy with the idea of teachers being armed. On the other hands, some people think, well, maybe it does make sense to have a stronger security or show of security and somebody who is trained to be standing guard at some of these schools. So can you help us make sense of that? Shannon? Absolutely. So. You know, first of all, we're not opposed to armed guards at schools who do

have training and background checks. However, we have seen time and time again everything from colum Mined to the Pulse nightclub to Parkland, that even when there is an armed deputy on site, it doesn't necessarily stop someone who is perfectly willing to give up their lives as they commit mass homicide and often have an arsenal bulk Ammo even tactical gear, you know, which is no match necessarily for

a deputy. But also I want to point out that even the most highly trained police have about eight rate of accuracy when shooting a moving target. So the idea that we are going to arm these volunteer teachers and turn them into sharpshooters is absurd. You know that the answer is not arming teachers, it's disarming dangerous people. Well, you know that's the n r A chestnut. The best way to deal with a bad guy with a gun

is a good guy with a gun. And I think the research and the evidence really disproves that time and time again does and also, look, this shooter in Parkland was essentially a good guy in the n r a's mind until he shot and killed seventeen people. This was an eighteen year old who had legally purchased an Arsenal bulk Ammo tactical gear. He had never been convicted of

a crime, he had never been adjudicated mentally ill. That is the definition of an nar A good guy, you know, Shannon, A lot of people knew this perpetrator in Parkland seemed to be bad news. Right. People had seen him practicing with guns in his backyard. I don't know all the details, but had observed disturbing behavior on Instagram and all sorts of places that would have raised a red flag, reported

him to the FBI, right exactly. So, I guess the question is, with these red flag laws, how do you enforce them and how do you ensure that people if they see something, they say something. It's really important that that last point you made about when you see something,

say something. I mean, we have this law, for example in California now because when the UCSB shooting happened, uh, the parents had gone to the police many times and said, look, our son is armed and dangerous, and they said, there's nothing we can do. He's never been convicted of a crime, he's never been adjudicated mentally ill. We cannot remove his weapons. And so now our job in California is to educate people about this law and to let them know they

can take advantage of it. Right that police and families can petition a judge and get a temporary restraining order to move remove someone's guns if they seem to be a danger to themselves or others. And if Florida had had that law, it would have made it a lot easier to intervene and to really understand what this teenager was planning. But I guess the n r A goes

nuts over that. The opposes that that people who are law abiding said is and suddenly they will figuratively be in the crosshairs of the authorities and their guns will be taken away. Is that right the n r A. Look, I've been doing this for five years. The n RA opposes every single law that is proven by data to slow gun violence. And it isn't necessarily because they really

disagree with the law. It's because they believe any law, no matter how small, no matter how incremental, is a slippery slope to confiscation, or at least that's what they tell their members. Well, let's talk about the power of the n r A and where it actually comes from, because I think there are a lot of misunderstandings that you know, millions of law abiding members the n r A chip in small dollars and that's where they get their political punch. But really the story is different from that.

That's right. The n RA could have zero members and still be a political powerhouse because they receive a majority of the million dollar annual budget they have from gun manufacturers. UM, this idea that they have five million members has been proven to be a myth by reporters. So many of

those people are dead or they just joined for the discounts. UM. I can assure you that when we show up at state houses, it's typically dozens or hundreds of moms to be an action volunteers versus one nr A lobbyist, for example in Florida. UM. This this is not about the n r A being powerful because they have millions of motivated members. It's because they have millions of dollars from gun manufacturers. One thing we should point out is n r A members actually believe in sensible gun laws and

believe that they should change. Is that right, Channon, that's right. So a Republican poster found that sev of all n r A members actually support common sense gun laws like closing the background check loophole. And also it's important to keep in mind that only about one out of every nine or ten gun owners actually even belongs to the n r A, and when you pull gun owners more generally, about eight of them support stronger gun laws. So this

is really about a radicalized n r A leadership. It is not in any way into not only with America, but even its own members. In fact, when we did that film Under the Gun and you were featured in it, shann and so many people who are gun owners said, thank you so much for doing this movie, because you are expressing the views of most gun owners in this country that have been silenced or who really don't have

a voice in this entire debate. But tell us more about the unholy alliance between gun manufacturers and the n r A and how that works and why that's so important, and understanding how the n r A operates. So the n r A is basically just a lobbying organization that solely exists at this point to protect the profits of gun manufacturers. You know, back in the seventies, it used to be hunting and sportsmen's organization focused on gun safety

and training. That all went out the window about two or three decades ago when what happened was gun manufacturers

started selling more guns to fewer people. And that's an aging out demographic, typically a white man over the age of fifty or sixty, and so when they realized that they needed to open up the market for guns, sales is when all of their sort of moderate beliefs, and in fact, in Wayne la Pierre said he didn't support guns in schools and and he supported a background check over every gun sale, those moderate beliefs have gone out

the window. They became much more radicalized because in order to inculcate the next generation of gun buyers, they have to force guns into K through twelve schools, They have to put guns on college campuses, they have to sell guns to women. And so what we've seen is that because they no longer have a boogeyman in the White House to say this person is going to take your guns away, they have to make us afraid of one another.

And we're seeing that more and more. If you have the misfortune of watching n R A t V, you will see that their whole purposes to foment this culture war. And and isn't it also giving sort of fancier souped up guns with more bells and whistles to get people who currently already own guns to buy more guns. Well, the terry is convinced this subset of people it sells guns too, that they need an arsenal, they need, you know,

ten A R fifteens. They need six glocks and and that's actually the biggest problem for the organization is that they need to open up that market of gun sales. In fact, since Donald Trump was elected president, gun sales have gone down ten or over a hundred million dollars. And that's why, for example, we see the n r A trying to deregulate silencers because they can't convince someone to buy another gun necessarily, but they can convince them

to buy accessories. So let's talk about whether anything is actually going to change at the federal level in the wake of the Parkland shooting. Is their hope for legislation that could make a meaningful difference? Uh? You know, look, I I understand that everybody would like this cathartic moment in Congress. I would too, But the wins that we're looking for may come in the state houses, they may become in corporate boardrooms until we get a Congress and

the president in place who will do the right thing. Um. You know, the President came out after saying one thing about what he promised at a federal level, he's now backtracking and just sort of putting forth a plan that was clearly written by the n r A, and these incremental changes that he's talking about um really do nothing to solve our gun violence problem. That is why our

organization is so incredibly focused on the midterm elections. If we really want to send a strong signal to to our members of Congress and to our state houses, we have to use our votes in the November elections, and we have to be educated about where our candidates and lawmakers stand on this issue, and we have to vote accordingly. We've seen this movie before, terrible school shooting, you know, the nation grieving and then forgetting, and everyone seems to

think Shannon for whatever reason. Actually, I'd like to ask you if you think this why Parkland is different? These kids are different. That's not saying anything about the beautiful lives that were lost in tragedies like this in this country. But for some reason, in this time, with these voices, something's going to change. Do you agree with that? I do, and I think it already has changed. I mean, we have nearly two hundred thousand new volunteers and millions of

new members who have joined us just since Parkland. We actually started something called Students Demand Action, and nearly twenty thou people have joined that we are seeing a change like we've never seen before. And I think that's for a few reasons. One is that we saw not only the survivors, but also the entire community of Parkland come together after the shooting with one clear call to action within hours, and that call to action was that we

needed stronger gun loss. And look, that may be because of all the work that we've been doing for five years to educate people about the tissue. It may be because people are so tired of mass shootings in this country. I mean, the largest mass shooting in the history of our country in Las Vegas, happened on President Trump's watch. Um. But I also think that we are starting to see

this generation lockdown become adults. So for the last eighteen years or so, we've been telling these kids, look, active shooter drills are no different than fire drills or earthquake drills. These are acts of nature, essentially, and they're becoming adults like my seventeen year old son, and they're realizing they've been sold a bill of goods. These are acts of cowardice. This is the complete inaction of our lawmakers to protect them.

And I think they're really angry. And the the argument or the trope used by the n r A and a lot of Republicans in Washington is this is really a mental health issue. This isn't a gun issue. What's your reaction to that? There are a few things to say about that. And that is definitely a straw man that you see Republicans break out every time there's a mass shooting or her fixed shooting tragedy in this country. It's so infuriating, isn't it. It is an And here's why.

First of all, it stigmatizes mental illness. You know, we we're hearing nr A pundits and and Donald Trump say things like they were sickos. Look, people who are mentally ill are much more likely to be a victim a

violent crime than they are to be the perpetrator. But also, if the issue of the mentally ill having guns was so important to this president UH and this Congress, they wouldn't have made the very first action they took to roll back an Obama rule that prevented UH social Security recipients who were too mentally ill to handle their benefits from buying guns. That was the first thing Donald Trump did was to roll back that role so none of

it rings true. You know, we've seen them point fingers that everything from mental illness to video games to even single parents since Parkland, all of that is to distract us from what is the truth, and it's easy access to guns. Well, and the reality is in other countries, there's mental illness, there are violent video games and their single parents, and no other country has the mass shooting problem that we have in this country. That is exactly right.

We have the same rates of mental illnesses other high income countries. We watched the same movies, we play the same video games. What's different is that we have easy access to guns. We have three million guns and very few gun laws. Let's talk about sort of what really works, Shannon, though. You know, one step is obviously closing the gun show loophole and private sellers and online with background checks. But that is just the tip of the iceberg, isn't it.

Because even with among licensed gun dealers, the records are not really updated or up to speed. There is an evidence when somebody with a record of domestic violence and mental health issues, are the proper red flags raised. I mean, what are some of the other areas that need attention from people who want to do something about this. Katie.

One thing I always recommend to people is that they watched Under the Gun, because I think you all did an amazing job of digging into the complexities of this issue and what needs to be fixed. But we you know that closing the background check loophole would save a lot of lives. If you look at the nineteen states that have done that, you see gun violence cut almost in half across the board. So that is the first thing that we need to do. But a lot of

people don't realize that. Also, Um, there are glaring loopholes. For example, in domestic violence laws, they don't include stalkers or dating partners as prohibited purchasers. So we have to go into each state and change those laws to give them teeth. We've done it now in twenty five states, red and blue across the country. UM. We also, as you mentioned, go into states and pass laws that bolster the NIXT system, the system that we put information records into.

Two show who is a prohibited buyer and Y. And you know, another really interesting thing that people don't realize is that if you do go to a license dealer and try to buy a gun and you're flagged as a prohibited purchaser that isn't necessarily reported to the police, and that's a huge red flag. So we work to change those laws as well. But don't forget that. All while we're doing these things, the n r A is

working really hard to pass laws that endanger us. So in thirteen states, for example, the n r A has passed permitless carry laws, which means you don't have to have a background check or training or even a permit to carry a gun to conceal carry a gun in that state. So while we're trying to pass these good laws, we also have to stop these bad laws. And there's

a recent law about interest state. If you have a concealed carry permit in one state, you can use it when you go to another state that I know Cyrus Fancy is fighting against what happened with that. So this bill is actually winding its way through Congress still. And after every mass shooting, including Parkland, you hear the n r A and the President suggests that somehow something called concealed carry reciprocity would would help our gun violent situation.

The n Y has been trying to pass concealed carrey reciprocity for nearly twenty years. They have failed every time because doesn't mean exactly explain it to our listeners, Shannon's So basically what would happen is the weakest law of the land to get a gun permit would become the law of the land everywhere. So, for example, to get a gun permit in Alabama, you do not have to be eighteen, you can have a background of of convicted violence, you can have d u wise, you don't have to

have live fire training. It's one of the weakest permit requirements in the country. Under concealed caree reciprocity, you could then take that permit and your gun into any state of the country, no matter how strong their gun laws are. So it's really uh behind the scenes way to upend state laws. Can you just before we go, because we're going to have to wrap Unfortunately, Shannon, I could talk to you about this all day. Urban violence is such

a problem. So many black kids are killed by gun violence on the streets of cities across the country every day, and there is this feeling that when white children are white victims are in the news, it gets so much more attention. And this daily drip drip drip of wrath, of of shootings that you see on the streets of these cities. What can be done about urban violence and all the kids of color that are killed regularly in

cities like Chicago. Look, this is a very big and complicated issue, and there are a lot of different ways that we can address gun violence. You know, our organization is focused mainly on changing gun laws. And when we look at laws like closing the background check loophole, we know that that significantly reduces gun trafficking, for example. And when you talk about Chicago, the majority of the crime guns that are in Chicago actually come from Indiana, which

is just twenty minutes away from Chicago. You can go across the border, fill up your truck with semi automatic rifles and handguns with no background check, drive back twenty minutes and sell them um And so we do know that bad Apple gun dealers, by the way, so dozen of guns to somebody who then sells them on the streets of Chicago, and there's nothing prohibiting them from doing so. There's actually a bill that just passed the Illinois legislature.

We're hoping the governor will sign it into law. Um, we're putting pressure on him to do so, and it would actually address that issue. It would require those gun dealers themselves to have background checks. Well, obviously you're making some strides and you're going to be part of this march. That's right. I will be in Washington, d C. Supporting the students and just hoping that this momentum will take us into the midterms. Well, Shannon Watts, thank you so

much for talking with us. As always, Shannon, and I'd like to personally say congratulations to your army of moms and allies who are out there fighting the good fight, donating their time and energy and dollars two really ushering in some kind of change in this country. Thank you so much. Thank you as always to our lovely producer, who we really do like so much. We don't just say it, no, we we do mean it. And Gianna I really enjoy working with you and appreciate everything you do.

Gianna Palmer is our producer. I also really like our audio engineer who's a super nice guy, Jared O'Connell, and our assistant producer Nora Richie Nor I like you too. I'm not going to leave you out special thanks This week to Pony Sound Studios in Austin, Texas, where we're now sitting. We should record a country western song in this room, Katie, here's a wagon wheel on the wall. It's a very very interesting and different from our New York studio. Thanks to Loose Fleming in New York and

kg and you Community Radio in Boulder, Colorado. They all helped us to get this show recorded on the road. It takes a village, as Katie would say, Thanks to everybody. Also to Beth Dems, my assistant, Emily Beena over at Katie Kirk Media, and Alison Bresnik, who gets the word out so well about our podcast. On social media, Mark Phillips wrote our theme music. You can find me on social media. I am an animal on Insta stories. You

should check those out. You see a whole different side of me that maybe you don't want to see, but anyway, check me out at Katie Kuric and Brian of course is on Twitter at Goldsmith b And here's one more reminder to please call in with your thoughts and feedback. We really do appreciate them. That number we got all sexy there in your voice for a second, What was that about? Thoughts and feedback that may us be you

or maybe I need to blow my nose. That number again is four four six three seven, or you can email us at comments at current podcast dot com. And we really do love hearing from you. It actually makes me feel closer to all of you and makes me feel like you're enjoying the podcast, which motivates and inspires us to keep doing it. So thank you. We're off next week, but after that we won't have another break until the very end of May, so don't panic, dear listeners, will be back very soon. H