Pete Souza: Obama's Photographer

for President Barack Obama. That is right, Katie. Pete Susa is responsible for some of the most amazing and iconic photos from President Obama's time in the White House, Like one of my favorites, the one from the Oval office of President Obama bending over so a little African American boy could touch his hair to see if it's like his own, or or how about that picture which we discuss from the Situation room when the National Security team watched the raid that killed us on a bit laden

and never forget those intense expressions on everyone's face for the fact that Hillary Clinton was the only woman seated in a room full of men. But I digress. Anyway, we talked with Pete Susa about his experience working for President Reagan. He was in that White House too, about how he first got to know Barack Obama when he was a junior senator from Illinois, and about his continuing relationship with the president, which has lasted to this day. And if you want to see what we're talking about

instead of just listening to us talk about photographs. I am wondering about this medium to talk to a photographer, but hopefully we're painting some pictures for you and our descriptions. Pete is out this week with a book of photographs called Obama An Intimate Portrait. I'm looking at Pete's beautiful book, which has some of the beautiful photos that you took

during your eight years of covering President Obama. Uh, you must have gotten to know him very very well, Pete, And I'm sure you could write an excellent tell all, but you're not going to tell us about what you observed and learned from being around Barack Obama all that

time in a whole array of situations. Oh, where to begin, Katie. Um. I met him on his first day in the Senate, so in January, I think it's January four of five, and still know him today, just saw him last week, and the character of the guy has not changed one bit. Even though he had this amazing job for eight years, grueling so many experiences, the core of him is still the same. How would you describe that core decent? He's

a decent man, trying truly every day. I think he went to work and he was thinking about what's the best thing for the country in any decision, some of which were not politically popular. He also thought about that we live in this age of social media and everything's today and react right away, and he was not afraid to think the long term. Right, What's what's the right thing to do in the long term, Pete, What would

you say are President Obama's biggest strengths and weaknesses? And and along those lines, what do you think the public doesn't get still about President Obama? The I started arguing with a not arguing. I started responding to a question the other day from a I won't mention person's name, but they were like, tell me about the two Barack Obamas. And I'm like, there's not two Barack Obamas. What do you talk about? And I think the point being that he said that President Obama was aloof and he was

not aloof. People tend to try to caricaturize our presidents based on incomplete information, and I think that's what's happened in this case. He was he was a guy who had a core group of friends, He enjoyed spending time with his family, and he he didn't like the Washington you know, party circuit, and so I think a lot of people thought, because he didn't socialize the way you're supposed to socialize in Washington, that people came up with this idea that he was aloof. So it's just like,

let's knock that down right now. Having said that he was a cool customer, I mean, let's face it, I think he was very h I would say he had a cool temperament, wouldn't you say? No, No, absolutely, very even tempered. You know, it's interesting sing the Some people have asked me to compare him with President Reagan, who I also spent some time as a White House photographer for President Reagan. That's sort of like the one characteristic that they had that was similar, where Reagan two was

very even, even tempered. But President Obama maybe even more so. I think that had to do with his upbringing and being from Hawaii. Um, your listeners know that he actually wasn't born in Kenya, right, hopefully. Okay, I don't know, you know, because we have a lot of faith in our listeners, so I believe they do. But Pete, you still want to answer the question, what what were his biggest weaknesses and biggest strengths? Weaknesses at all? I mean weaknesses.

It's like it's hard, It's it's hard to say. Okay, he wasn't that good of a dancer. How's that he thought he was? But he really wasn't. You know. He's a good singer though, I gotta say he carried a tune pretty well. He was so good when he sang al Green. What other songs did he used to sing? Um? Lean on Me? You know, that was a big one. I think little Bill Withers. Yeah, what else? Um? You know, earth Wind and Fire really September wonder you know? Yeah?

And what do you think the public still doesn't get about Barack Obama? Oh? I think they. I think they get Barack Obama. I really do. I think they get him. He was two. I'll tell you two things about him that maybe well, people may know about him, but they don't know this much about him. One very disciplined guy. I mean, this is a guy who just in terms of like exercise and diet, more discipline than any other person I've ever met, didn't He used to eat like

six almonds on his desk. Yeah, that was just somebody I think told that to a reporter almost as a joke. They were trying to make the point that he didn't eat like you know, so they this number of almonds every day. I don't know that that was true. Can we like curse on this? Yeah? Okay, that was bullshit, you know, I think I'm kidding. Okay, I think he was. I think he was. Probably people were probably goofing on him for being so disciplined, right, And that is one

of his key characteristics, wasn't it well? But it carried over to his work. And so every night, uh, sometime after dinner, between like seven thirty and nine thirty, depending how organized the staff was, he would get his briefing book for the next day. It was a stick binder memos for every meeting that he was going to have background you know, a schedule list of people that were coming to any event and their background memos for national

security meetings, things like that. And he was disciplined so much that I can account maybe one or two or three times in eight years where he'd be in a meeting and he wouldn't say I read the memos. So let's just get to the crux of the issue, meaning he always did his homework. He would always read his ten letters um. The correspondent staff would choose ten letters that spoke to the number of letters he was getting. Some of them were not complimentary, and but every day

he would read those ten letters at night too. So it's very discipline in his work as well as exercise diet. He did smoke a few SIGs every now and then. Didney Pete he quit smoking in I forget exactly what it was. It was either oh nine or early ten, and has never had a cigarettes since. Really, he didn't sneak cigarettes every now and then? Did he choot nick come? Yes, he popped nickerette the rest of his administration. Yes, that's okay.

Tell me about sort of like despite the fact that President of mom was was super cool and disciplined and even tempered, did you see him get really mad or really upset at all? He would get set, you know. X A. Rod used to talk about um. His analogy was, we've got the best running back of all time, and what we continue to do is give him the ball on every play, meaning that he was sometimes overscheduled, and sometimes he would not like that and get upset when um,

he was overscheduled, So he'd get ticked. And did he have flashes of temper and situations like that, you know occasionally, but it was sort of like one of those things where you know he could, uh he got mad at me? A couple of times he did, yeah, yeah, and I was more fied. Uh and like the next day, it was as if nothing had happened. Why did you get mad at you? P? It was usually a competitive situation.

What do you mean, like we're playing cards on Air Force one, So he'd get mad at you because you'd beat him in cards, not not maybe the way I you know, occasionally played a hand or something like that. And what about getting upset? Did you ever see President Obama cry? Well, he cried at Newtown. He cried recalling the events at Newtown publicly a couple of times. Did you ever see him cry privately? I mean a Newtown I mean I think, uh, and and greeting the families

backstage before that event. It was horrific, you know, that was a really difficult time. I think one of the most extraordinary things I witnessed President Obama during his presidency was that speech in Charleston and he um at some point decided to break into amazing grace. What a moment that was, and that was completely extemporaneous. We talked to

Valerie Jarrett about that. That's an interesting day because that was such a wrening day emotionally when we went down to Charleston for Reverend Pickney I believe his name was his funeral Um. That's why we had gone to Charleston. This was the church shooting and if you remember, earlier that day the Supreme Court upheld same sex marriage, and so we came back that night to d C. It was a Friday night, and someone on staff had come up with the idea to light the White House and

rainbow colors at night. So we went from this just awful emotional day in Charleston and came back to the White House just before dark, and then they started to light up the White House and it was just an extraordinary day of emotions, good and bad. It was like one of those days that you served never forget. We're gonna take a quick break, but don't go away. Everybody keep those earbuds firmly implanted, because we'll be back soon with more from Peze Susa. And now back to our

conversation with Pete Susa. Pete, We're gonna return to your experiences with President Obama because there's a lot more we want to talk about. But first let's go back and talk about you. You grew up in Massachusetts. You trained to be a journalist. Why a photographer rather than a reporter. I went to Boston University and I actually wanted to become a sports writer, so I went to their communications school. Um I I thought I would be interested in photography.

I wasn't sure, so I took a photo class photo one my junior year. I had never really taken pictures before, and I think that the first time that I was in the dark room, UM, developing a print and in the tray and there's a developer and you're kind of like shaking the tray. You have these red safe lights on, so you see this image start to appear, and it was to me, it was like magic. And I think like that day, I was like, Okay, this is what

I want to do. You worked at the Chicago Tribune and National Geographic and and then you became aim an official photographer for President Reagan. How did you get that job? I went to grad school at Kansas State University, went to work for a couple of newspapers in Kansas, and at one point I had interviewed for a job at the Kansas City Star, and there was a director of photography by the name of Carol Greenawalt who had interviewed me. But she didn't she didn't hire me. She she gave

the job to somebody with more experience. Um, and unbeknownst to me, she kind of continued to follow my career. She then became the White House photo editor, working under Michael Evans, who was Reagan's chief photographer. And so at some point in nineteen three they had an opening for someone to work under Michael, and so Carol suggested me, and that's how I That's how I got to the

White House the first time around. Where do you stand politically and was it ever hard peat for you to work for someone with whom you disagreed politically or did you just separate yourself from that. I separated myself from it to a certain extent. There were certainly things that Um, President Reagan. You know, some of his policies I didn't I didn't agree with, but at the same time, I respected him as a person and I could see that he was trying to do what he thought was right.

Did you ever say, hey, Mr President, I like the word with you. I'd like to I'd like to discuss you breaking up the air traffic controllers union and what impact that might have on the working man. Katie, I'm smarter than that. Give me some credit. How would you compare President Reagan to President Obama? I know you said they both have similar temperaments or had similar temperaments when they were in the White House, any other ways of comparison.

That was almost like another lifetime ago for me, and I've had some people ask me that question. Still having a difficult time, um, making those comparisons because I'm so in the moment with President Obama. I mean, I spent eight years with him, the last eight years and then the last year working on this book, so it's hard to go back to that time. What did you do

between President Reagan and President Obama? So that's when I freelanced for nine years for National Geographic but also with other magazines, some commercial work, and then went to work for the Chicago Tribune for nine years and their DC bureau as their national photographer Pete. After nine eleven, you were among the first journalists to cover the fall of Kabbal Afghanistan, having crossed I read the Hindu Kush Mountains on horseback in three ft of snow to get your pictures.

What what was that experience like? That was I'm I'm glad I'm still sitting here right now. That was those Those those probably one of the more difficult things I've done physically. You know, the Hindu Kush Mountains two feet snow, and as majestic as it was, it was as soon as the sun went down it got so cold and we thought we were going to freeze to death because we really weren't dressed for a weather like that. And

we came across this Northern Alliance hut. So these are the guys that were fighting the Taliban within inside Afghanistan, and they had this little hut that we came across and with a little wood burning stove, and we spent the night in there, and I think we would have frozen to death if we had not come across this, uh, this little hut, and I remember like there's like, I don't know, eighteen or twenty of us, and there's probably not an inch of space, um that was not covered

by a body. So then the next morning we were able to get out of the hinder kush and make our way closer to Cobble, and we actually thought we might have to be there the entire winner, because everybody was saying the fighting season as they called it, was coming to a close and low and behold in the In the next four days is when the Northern Alliance, backed by American fighter jets B fifty two bombs, made their final push and into Cobble, and Cobble fell. So

it was our timing was quite fortunate. Were you ever in it? A lot of danger? Grave danger um? I mean compared to some foreign car respondence, maybe not, But I do remember walking with the Northern Alliance down this one dirt road and hearing sniper bullets whizzing by. And I couldn't tell if they were five ft above my head at our fifty ft above. But when you hear

a bullet whistling by, that's a little unnerving. And we had a couple we got close to some rocket propelled grenades that were coming in UH, and I learned a valuable lesson never stand by the tank. I mean, I was near the Northern Alliance tank and that's what the Taliban was trying to take out. So I kind of learned very quickly stay away from tanks. Good, good practical advice.

Fir Us All. So, so you were in Washington, as you mentioned, as a photographer for the Chicago Tribune, and the new senator from Illinois was this guy named Barack Obama. Why do you think you two hit it off the way that you did because your relationship, I think quickly went beyond just you know, a photographer and a new member of Congress. He kind of was forced to get

along with me in the sense that I had. So. Jeff Zeleny, who now works for CNN but was then a correspondent in the Washington Bureau it had come up with this idea of let's let's do sort of like a documentary print print wise on his first year in the Senate, and the Obama communication staff was really trying to low profile him that first year in the Senate because there had been a lot of hype after his two thousand four speech, and so they're really trying to

like stay under the radar. But because we were the local paper, his hometown paper, they acceded to given us access, especially me, where they were letting me go behind the scenes covers meetings. Jeff and I actually did a congressional delegation trip with Obama and Luger, a senator Luger to Russia, Ukraine,

Azerbaijan to look at this man told nuclear weapons. And it was very unusual for them to take journalists along on a congressional delegation plane like that, So just by close proximity and you know, small talk here and there. And I think he appreciated the way I worked, which I call low footprint. He got to know me a little bit. I think he liked my pictures, and I

think he liked my sometimes sarcastic sense of humor. When you were asked to go back and be the White House photographer, was there a part of you, Pete that said, yuck, I don't want to be stuck working at the White House seven when I could be covering more interesting things

outside the building. I recognized the historic aspect of his presidency, and one of the things that I learned in my coverage of him as senator was he was a great photographic subject in that the presence of the camera didn't affect what he did. He wasn't self conscious. He wasn't self conscious at all, which was extremely important and it's very rare, especially in a politician. So was President Reagan self conscious? He was an actor. He was an actor,

you know, probably a little more so. Yeah, did he pose for the camera a little bit because that is what he did for a living at Yeah, I mean, if you go back to the eighties, this is that this is at a time when magazines kind of ruled the photographic world, right, and they would schedule like fifteen

minute photo shoots with President Reagan. You know, one week it was for Time, two weeks later was for Newsweek, And so he was kind of forced to um to do those kinds of shoots and contrast it with President Obama. Although he had no problem with allowing me tagging along with him, or if there was a magazine photographer that was going to spend the day with him and they would just shadow me um to get pictures. He had no problem with that, But when it came to posing

for photos. Magazine covers things like that President Obama just didn't that was not his thing. He didn't like doing that at all, So you probably got a lot more natural, spontaneous jo with him as a result. There were a lot of personalities in that White House when you covered it, Pete and I wanted to ask about Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton. What was the president's relationship like with each of them as you viewed their interactions in real time? He was a bro with Joe Biden romance. They had

a bromance. I mean I think that, um, what an excellent choice he was for vice president. I don't think they knew each other that well coming in, but over time they formed this unique bond. It was a brother show. And you know, Joe Biden was the older brother, and I think President Obama respected his opinion on every issue. I don't think he always agreed with him, but certainly respected and wanted to hear what Joe thought all the time.

What about Hillary? With Hillary, history is going to show that what a courageous decision it was for him to hire her as his secretary of State. I mean, they had this brutal campaign, right and as she's written, and as he's written, it was I think at first, I guess she didn't want to do it, she didn't think this would be possible. But what a good decision that was.

I would say it was very magnanimous. Yes, yeah, And the President had just read I think Doris Karns Goodwin's book Team of Rivals and was partly inspired by that. Both Biden and Clinton had run against Obama, of course, and oh eight, um, maybe the most iconic you took. Pete featured Obama, Clinton, Biden and others, And it was taken at four oh six pm on May one, in the situation room when the National security team was tracking the operation against Ossaba bin Laden. What was it like

to be in that room at that moment? Well, i'll take you back to um to that day and everyone jamming into that little conference room which is across the hall from the big conference room within the situation room, where the communications link had been set up in this this little room, and the President decided he wanted to monitor this, and they didn't think they could um switch the link to the big conference room without losing the signals.

So that's why everybody piled in. And if you look at that picture, or you see the president is not seated at the head of the table because there was a brigadier general who was on a laptop communicating with Admiral mccraven, and as he stood up to give his seat to the president, the President just said no, no, no, you stay there, and he pulled up a chair right next to him, this folding black chair, I think, which

is now in the National Archives. So everybody was focused for forty minutes on what was taking place in Pakistan. And if you look at all those faces and you realize nobody's talking, they're just observing. You have the most powerful people in the government in that room and they're they're helpless. They're powerless to do anything about what's taken place.

They've made a decision already in the weeks and days before, and now all they can do is hope that these guys that are carrying out this mission are successful, because this could have gone really bad. And as a matter of fact, it started out really bad when one of the helicopters crashed coming into the compound, so things could have gone south, and I think that's what accounts for all the tension and anxiety you see in every one of those faces understandably, So why do you think they

released that photo fairly quickly after that day? So the following day, this was on a Sunday night, I believe, when the President made the announcement, And on Monday, I came into the office Ben Rhodes, who's a deputy and assal security advisor, his offices across the hall from me. So when he came in, just popped into his office and I was like, Ben, should we think about editing some of these photos from yesterday? And He's like, yeah,

let's do it. So I went through. I shot a thousand pictures that day, thousand two to be exact, and went back through all the pictures and the one that people refer to as the situation room photo was one of them. But there were like several meetings during the day. I've got pictures of him calling President Bush, President Clinton. So I've got to serve the whole day and we ended up choosing I think like nine photos including that one,

to release two to the world. You were in so many sensitive situations, so many times, you know, to quote Hamilton's in the room where it happened. Um, how did the president and his team learn to trust you so completely that no matter what they said or did, that you would keep it in confidence. Did you have to sign an n D A. I didn't sign an NDA, but I think it was it was understood I was never going to leak anything. Plus, you know, most of the actual real top secret stuff is in paper, right,

is in memos. Yes, they talk about it during meetings, but I wasn't privy to paperwork. And when you're a photographer in those situations, you're worrying about clicking the shutter at just the right moment, your composition, framing, trying to capture the mood and emotion. You're paying attention to the general conversation, so you're you can accurately capture that mood and emotion. But I couldn't relay any like well, but I couldn't. I mean I was not there to take notes.

What kind of camera did you use? Pete? So you're like one of those, aren't you? Just like want to know the I am one of those? Because so I'll first say this, like the camera you use doesn't matter. It's like the person behind the camera, right, Okay, but the photographers and are listening audience, Yes, So I used the Canon five D Mark two and then upgraded to the three before I left. And the reason I chose that camera coming into the White House was it was

quieter than the Nikon. The Nikon was just too loud, and I thought the most important aspect, because all the cameras were good by then, the quieter camera was what was really important to not disturb what was going on. You don't want to have this loud clang going off every five seconds or something. You could You sometimes used your smartphone too, though, Pete, right, I did. I started

mostly during the second term. I would use an iPhone occasionally too, usually like shoot little snippets away from the action. I'm looking at your table here, and if this was at the White House, I'd be like zooming in on some of these cool faces that people have drawn on the table, right, things like that. So just sort of

more fun. Let's talk about Election Night two thousand sixteen, something that we're actually marking the anniversary of what was Election Night two thousand sixteen, Like for you, Pete oh Man, so don't hold that it was um it was sort of living in a surreal world. So I had I had talked to the President earlier in the day, and he had said, well, I'm going to call Hillary and and Trump, uh, probably be pretty late eleven twelve o'clock.

And I was like, okay, well, I'm gonna go home and have dinner with my wife and then I'll just wait to hear, you know, see how it's going, and then come back in and come up to the residents just to you know, document that call um. And then watched the results at home with my wife, and you know, disbelief because I had believed everything that I was reading and hearing, you know, like the kind of things Katie was telling me and other people that Hillary is gonna win.

And I could see that this this was gonna be a long, a a long night and be it wasn't gonna go so good for the Democrats. And I actually went to bed when I got word that I can't remember if the President sent a message to somebody who then forwarded it to me, and it was basically I'm not going to call anybody tonight, and I just couldn't

watch TV any longer. So I went to bed, and I remember waking up around six or six thirty in the morning, and I had like a million text messages, and so I didn't kind of really need to look at the A P story and find out what had happened. And in fact, Pete, we now know that the night before the election, I don't know, maybe you witnessed this, the President said to Hillary after that rally at which they both appeared in Philadelphia, you got this. I'm so

proud of you. So he clearly expected that she would win. And we also know that on election night, I guess you weren't there for that moment, the President called Hillary's team to encourage her to concede because he wanted the peaceful transfer to happen and as orderly and smooth away as possible. I was not there. That must have been like three o'clock in the morning or something. Fast forward to President Trump came to visit President Obama, and shall

we say it was a bit awkward. You were there, There were a lot of photographers there, in fact, because it was a photo op. Uh, you watched this. What were you feeling? What was he feeling? What was the mood of the room. Was it as sort of uncomfortable as it appeared. I think President Obama was very gracious.

I might add, didn't you think from the video. I mean, I'll tell you this because he said this, Um, he remembered very much how President Bush treated him during the transition, and despite the fact that the election didn't go the way he wanted. Um, the American people had spoken, and his duty was to give President elect Trump the same

respect that President Bush gave him. One of the most memorable photos, Pete of yours, of many memorable photos, was the day after the election when it looked like members of the White House staff were going to either throw up or as if they were attending their mother's funeral. So talk about that photo. So that this is the day after the election. The President comes in to the office from the residents and he says to Ferreal, go over Sherry his personally, why don't you get Josh down here.

That's the way he said it, because he wanted to uh relay to Josh Um, Josh press secretary, how he should describe the President's reaction during his press briefing. So Ferreal called Josh just down the hall and gut word that Josh was in with his team. And so the President said, well, just tell Josh to bring his team down. And what neither one of them knew was wasn't just

Josh and his three deputy press secretaries. They were like sixty people in Josh's office, researchers, speechwriters, national security people, all the regional press people. And so when the Oval Office door opened and people started walking into the Oval Office and it wasn't just four people, it was like fifty people, the President had to kind of change what he was going to say because it was no longer about hey, Josh, because how I think you should say

what the president thinks of what happened last night? So instead he kind of had to be the adult in the room and consoler in chief be well, I wouldn't say consolar chief, but be you know, the chief of pep talk. But it's that picture is in my book, and I think the faces that you see will articulate how people felt beter than my words. Can I think you're right, because um, yes, everyone looks pretty darned devastated. Now you've said you're not going to comment on President Trump.

But that said, you've become famous and amassed quite the Instagram following posting old pictures from the Obama White House at very opportune times. We should add, let's face it really trolling President Trump. I mean that the picture in many ways is so much more devastating than any written criticism might be. So you've been, you know, a one man, you know, attack machine against President Trump by releasing these photos. I know, I think that's probably a little hyperbolic. I

would say it's almost a little slyer than that. I think there's a bit of a wink and a nod when Pete posts photos which seemed to tell a very different story than what maybe going on in the Trump administration. Would you say that's a little safer than attack dog. Hi, I stand on my characterization. The photos are meant to convey that President Obama would not have handled whatever it is this way, and in fact was dramatically different, and it it cast a sort of a nostalgic glow on

the previous administration. I like hearing you guys talk about this. How would you assess it? Pete? Uh? Well, One thing is like when someone first wrote a story about this about my Instagram feed, there was something about there was a headline about, you know, former White House photographer throwing shade at the Trump administration, and I had to look up what throwing shade meant because I didn't really I didn't know what it meant. Um. It's purposeful that I

haven't really talked about this UM. Now that I have a book out, I kind of enforced it to discuss it. UM. But it kind of speaks for itself, and I think I'm doing it in a way that actually is pretty respectful. I don't think it's hateful. I think it's respectful. I think it's playful, and I think it's subtle enough, especially when you compare it to what some people, for instance, say on Twitter. I think I'm a lot more respectful

than that. Some people air quotes you're talking about the president. Of course I didn't say that. I mean, I don't think it's hateful that said you know, you said it was now he said it was kind of an attack. You were kind of machine. I'm not attack machine. Come on, when there are reports out that the president is attacking his attorney general or criticizing Jeff Sessions, and you immediately post a photo of President Obama in a very kind of respectful pose with Eric Holder, I mean, I think

that's uh. You know, your your shining a spotlight on that news and you're striking a contract. You've been a bit of a fact checker as well. For instance, when President Trump says that President Obama did not call gold Star families, you basically prove him wrong photographically. Well, I will say this, President Obama visited Walter Reid twenty four times every three months, visited hundreds of wounded soldiers, spent

hours with them. We'd go to events around the country, and he would so often meet privately with gold Star families, families who had lost a son or daughter, husband killed in action. It was constantly that he did those sorts of things. And I was just posting public domain photos that had been made public earlier, and um just you know, putting them up there for people to see. Well, clearly this mischaracterization. You bite your nails like I do a

little hangnail. I try this mischaracterization definitely stuck in your craw, and other others continue to stick in your craw and your I mean, listen, let's call us badas bade. I think I've said enough already on this. I've made my point, and I continue to make my point in a very subtle way. And I will, you know, occasionally do that as well. I wonder how it feels to watch the Trump administration U systematically undo much of President Obama's legacy.

Because you were there, Pete during many of the signature accomplishments, I can imagine, Uh, it's troubling for you. I, um, the the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends to horns justice. I have confidence in uh, the American people in our country that, um, even if sometimes things go the wrong way, that eventually they will get right. You still have a relationship with President Obama. You see each other, can you just kind of update us and tell us how he and Mrs Obama are doing.

I haven't seen him that much as I was at the Obama Foundations summit last week, so I spent a couple of days with him. Then, UM, I went to Texas with him for that benefit concert for hurricane victims. That wasn't on assignment. I just called and see if you had an ext re set on his plane because I thought that would be a historic time. And you know, there's not gonna be many times where the five formers

are going to be together, and I thought it'd be. Um, it's something that I should photograph for the historical record, so I went along with him on that. I think he's doing fine. Um, Michelle is doing fine, he said. Everybody's happy. Malie is at college, Sasha's in high school. I think life is good. You got to know the girls pretty well too, didn't you, and got to watch them grow up, because that's a that's a lifetime for a kid. It doesn't seem like a very long period

of time for us old folks. Well, Brian, you're not really old, but Pete and I are. Um, but you really got to see them grow up and develop into you know, young women. There's a there's a picture in my book. Um my book is chronological, so you see

you see the family come in throughout the book. And I think one of the last pictures of the girls is at the dinner for Prime Minister Trudeau State Dinner of Canada, and they were the only time they were invited as guests and they have these long gowns on and it's like, oh my gosh, they've grown up there like sunrise and such. I sing at every podcast a little something, Pete, So thank you for giving me some a little suggestion there. In closing, Pete, what is President

Obama's favorite photo. He's he ever described that to you. The one I just talked about is actually on his bookshelf at his new office. He used to say he came across the picture that I have of Spider Man, you know, the little kid who's that really cute. Yeah, I remember he when he first saw that picture, he goes, oh, that's like my favorite photo. And then I think within a week there was a really cool photo with Sasha

Maliyah and that was it. From then on, it was always something that the girls were in were the ones that he really treasured. And speaking of the girls, you told me as we were preparing for the podcast and waiting for Brian who got stuck in traffic in Los Angeles, I'm sorry you told me what President Obama used to tell his daughters, which I thought was really interesting and sweet and made me think maybe I should say that to my daughters. Well, I thought you were gonna do.

You're gonna use that with me today because the first part of it is be kind and be useful, and that's not a bad advice for a parent to give her child, um and it's not a bad thought to having the back of your head going forward in life. Be kind and be useful. Pete Susa, this was really fun. And what are you gonna do now? You you spent the last year working on this book. UM, I'll probably take some time off, but I want to do some new photography. What that is I don't know, but UM,

I'm not done yet. I don't plan to do any more political photography. UM. I think once you've been in the White House, especially with this president, I think it's time to retire from political photography and move on to something else you never know, may afford you some new opportunities. Michelle is not going to run, so if that's what you're hinting at, thank you, Pete, and good luck with the book. It's beautiful on Your photographs are so fun to look at. You're one of my favorite things on

my Instagram feeds. So thank you, Thank you so much, Pete. It's an extraordinary book. Thank you, Bryan. I'm not an attack dog as usual. We'd like to beg our production team. Gianna Palmer is our producer. Even though she's not here today, she's still our producer. Nora Richie is our production assistant, and Jared O'Connell engineers and mixes the show. And Ryan in l A helped to engineer today's show, as well as special thank you and shout out to Alison Bresnik.

Not only does she have her finger on the pulse of all things social media, but she booked our interview with Pete Susa this week. Well played, Allison, well played. Mark Phillips is the man behind our theme music, and Emily Beana makes the magic happen over at Katie Currik Media. Don't forget to find us on social media. I'm Katie Couric on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook, and I'm Katie dot Corric on Snapchat. Brian me Well is tweeting up a

storm over at Goldsmith b on Twitter. He's very amusing and slightly outspoken, ever so slightly And if you have feedback or guest ideas, do drop us an email at comments at correct podcast dot com. You can also leave us a voicemail at nine to nine to to four four six three seven until next week. Thank you so much for listening, Ladam