Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric and this is next question. Hi everyone. Today we're diving into a topic that has really only started to get the attention it deserves, menopause. My guest is someone who's breaking the silence and changing
the conversation around it, the incredible Naomi Watts. You know her as an award winning actress, but today she's here as an author, sharing her deeply personal journey in her incredibly candid, informative, and yes funny book Wait Till You Hear about the night she was frantically trying to scrub off her estrogen patch before getting to it, something I could totally relate to. By the way, the book is aptly called Dare I say it? Everything I wish I'd
known about menopause, because Naomi definitely goes there. She says she wanted her book to feel like a cozy chat with a girlfriend, despite the serious subject. She discovered she was on the precipice of menopause at just thirty six, the same time she wanted to start a family. She felt devastated and alone, and was shocked by a sense that doctors and even family members thought she should just
suffer through it. Naomi is now in a mission to educate, embrace, and empower women, so their journey might be a little smoother. I really had a good time talking to her. Here's my conversation with Naomi Watts. Naomi, I had so much fun reading your book. I felt like you and I were spending a lot of time together, and I learned a lot about you, a.
Lot, probably too much. No, Actually, I.
Really appreciated your candor and the fact that you were so open, and also that you used so many experts and gave so much valuable information. And this is something I know that you've been thinking about for some time time. But why did you decide? Damn it, I'm going to write this book and I'm just going to lay it out there.
Yeah. Well, I'd been thinking about it, as many of us. When we have ideas that we sit on them, we think on them, we percolate on them, we fear them. So it takes a process to get to that point where you're ready. If you read the book, then you will see that I am very I got there very early and was very much alone and feeling scared and didn't have a community. I was thirty six when I was told I was about to go into menopause right
at the prespoe of wanting to start a family. So that collision of two things creating a huge amount of fear, just left me undone, frankly, and I needed a support system and didn't have it. And I wished there was a book that was a little bit more, you know, where I could find support, I could find expert advice and some fun along the way, as it isn't or it doesn't have to be so doom and gloom, you know.
And I wanted to create a book that had not just my story, but it was infused with other women's stories with some humor, pain points their distress, my distress, despair, as well as the facts as we know them of
the current place, speaking to fantastic doctors. Because there's a lot of books out there now which are incredibly helpful, but sometimes they can be too dense, you know, with all just the facts, and so I wanted it to feel like a cozy chat with my girlfriend, so that I could say, hey, this is what worked for me, this is what was awful, this was what was great, this is what I've learned along the way, and I can back it up up with this conversation with that doctor and that doctor, and.
I think it really was effective because it was so personal and yet also, as I mentioned, really informational, and I think some of the struggles to understand women's bodies is emblematic of a larger issue in the medical establishment. In your intro, you quote doctor Cheryl Malone, a DC based obgyn who I happen to know and we use her in our newsletter frequently. She's wonderful and she's the chief medical officer at Alloy Women's Health. She's one of
the leading menopause practitioners in the country. And you quote her saying, I think one of the things that we have got to understand, and study after study has substantiated this, is that we have really normalized suffering as a part of womanhood. We suffer from cramps, we suffer in childbirth, we suffer from pre menstrual syndrome. These things that exclusively affect women have been understudied across the board because the expectation is that if women suffer, it is not deemed
worthy of redress. Women exaggerate, were hysterical, it's all in your head. This unfortunate perception is still all too common in medicine today. Women still feel they're not heard, they're not seen, and they're not believed. And that's the problem there.
You have it, I mean, yeah, we were told to suffer through it. When I asked my mom why she didn't tell me more about menopause, she said, I didn't have these conversations with you because I never had them with my mother, as if to say there was some code of silence that was agreed upon generation by generation, which is absurd. Why should we suck it up and suffer? There's absolutely no reason when treatment is available, and the same thing goes for I mean, I remember having my
first baby. I thought, no, I mustn't have an epidural. I must suffer through this. Be a natural birth woman, you know, And that's absurd. If you're feeling extreme pain, why should you just because other women have said that's important, or society has said you must be natural. If you cannot do it, you should not feel bad about that. And I think that's what doctor Charon Malone is speaking to. We just said, okay, we should.
Suffer, and not only women have they traditionally not been listened to. You know, the term hysterical, But the amount of money spent on research is just absurd when you compare male illnesses with women. Women for so long have been just viewed as small men.
Until nineteen ninety three that we were even used in clinical trials.
Which is insane. And I did a podcast with Susan Dominus, a New York Times writer, in April twenty twenty three. Yes, that was one of the most shame changing articles. It was a cover story in the New York Times magazine and it was really about the history of hormone replacement therapy in Naomi. I lived through this because I was covering that study to some degree, and it got completely botched in the messaging. And it's probably a little too complicated for us to go really go deep into it.
But let's just kind of give a refresher on what happened to the Women's Health Initiative and why it was stopped. And what I think about, Naomi is all those lost years of research that could have helped develop certain therapies for women, therapies that people like I could take, you know, as somebody who has hormone receptor positive breast cancer but was on the patch for many years loved it. I can't tell you how much I miss estrogen, but it
was really misconstruction and mishandled by the NIH. Can we kind of give a brief premer on it.
Yes, So the study was stopped in two thousand and two because they found that they thought there was a discovery of breast cancer that was caused by HRT. They created the study to see if heart disease was actually going to be diminished.
For women postman apostle women, primarily because they thought it would be efficacious in reducing heart disease. And they showed a very very very slight risk of breast cancer, and they kind of gave this blanket statement or it was misconstrued, and then it was in the media, got applified by the media, basically scaring everyone away from hormone replacement.
And not just women who were taking it, doctors who were subscribing it. Everyone literally flushed their horme bones down the toilet and the media went berserk, and then doctors to this day still hold on to that that discovery that was unfounded that has now been pedled back on. But people are just left with this enormous.
Fear right and there are I mean, in fairness, there are some women who probably shouldn't take estuary.
Of course, it's and that's what I go in.
Therapy, right, who have a history of breast cancer, who have had breast cancer, et cetera. But it just got completely distorted in such a way that it not only scared women, but it kind of stopped the research too.
Right, Yes, and then a whole generation of women went untreated virtually. So what I wanted to do is in the book is really go deep into that with doctors research. And again I am not here on the soapbox saying take HRT. What is safe for you? What is your choice is up to you. But I encourage every woman to make sure they ask their doctor for the full spectrum of options, based on their medical history, based on
their symptoms, based on the risk benefit. And I don't want them to have a doctor be in a situation where the doctor is just plain gatekeeping, right, And I'm not saying they shouldn't be kept from taking these drugs. It's just the conversation, right, Everyone should be allowed to have that conversation.
One thing that you point out, which I think is so important, which I mentioned, Naomi, is that estrogen is this wonder hormone. I mean, it is really responsible for I think in many ways, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but brain health, sexual health, skin health. You know, I started doing HRT when I was anchoring the CBS Evening News because I thought, I do not want to have like the brain a senior moment when
I don't have it. By the way, when like somebody's telling me the latest economic report and I'd be like, wait, what on live television. I also did it because of bones, and you know, in a vain way, I wanted my skin to be good. And I think that people don't appreciate what a key role estrogen plays because it also is a hormone responsible for you feeling good. I sort of got depressed when I went through menopause, and I think it was because my estrogen was decreasing.
So there's still so much debate around it about the benefits of estrogen. You know. It's it's so interesting because we had that discovery and then the media and then that's been pedaled back and doctors are getting riled up about it, and then women are saying, yes, I've got to have estrogen, And now there's been another you know curve that has where doctors are saying, well, the benefits are not what everyone is saying on social media.
Oh really. Well, I also think even thet.
I wrote the book, really you know, still debate to this day.
But I also think a lot of people who aren't experts are offering opinions on social media.
That's true. So you have to have to be really careful, and you have to really do the research on your own based on your medical history.
And find a doctor who has time to talk to you, the one you trust.
Yeah, and I feel for these doctors who you know, they have their eight to ten minute session slots and you know, three minutes of those you're getting undressed. And you know, God forbid if you burst into tears because you've been dealing with you know, struggles in your life as.
You tell these very personal stories.
Yeah. So it's it's it's really something to consider carefully and with deep, deep research. But for me, I believe my quality of life has improved. It's safe.
For me.
I've trusted my doctors, I do my blood work, and I'm all about bone health. For me, I'm pretty sure it is keeping my bone strong.
And you're blonde and your petite, so you're at risk for osteoporosis.
Absolutely, and it's in my family. So I have to make sure that I you know, and a lot of that. I have to protect my bones with exercise.
Right, I was going to say, come lift some weights with I've just started.
I weigh that all the time as much as I can. It's the most boring kind of workout.
But it is put on some good music.
It can be music and have an entertaining you know, gym buddy, Yeah, you know so. I mean I sometimes do it at home with videos. I sometimes go to the gym, but yeah, it's very important.
It's hard for me just in the category is when I was diagnosed with hormone receptor positive breast cancer. Unfortunately it was early. Not only did they take me off estrogen my patch, I missed my patch, but they also put me on aromatase inhibitors, which basically get rid of any sintella of estrogen I might have coursing through my veins. So it's kind of hard because now I have to really focus on other ways to compensate for a lack of estrogen through exercise and supplements ET cetera.
And how do you feel.
I mean, you know, I'm making do I generally feel pretty well? I take care of myself and.
Night sweats or any of that still or.
Not too much. I had night sweats, I never had hot flashes. They sound miserable.
Yeah, I had, yeah, the worst night sweats And sometimes still one might sneak up on me and a few hot flashes. But yeah, the night sweats can lead. You know, obviously a disturbed sleep can lead to all kinds of things, depression, anxiety,
that memory blip thing. And so many women talk about how they can be in a meeting with filled with men and talking and then suddenly they lose a word and that causes real anxiety and then you lose your focus in the meeting and it can be very you know, you can just flood with shame, right and not be able to explain it to your colleagues. Like so you know, again going back to why I wrote the book was to create not just education, but community. And you know, we need.
To support, right and like if that happens, and.
In every place, not just at home or in our friendships, our relationship, but in the workplace as well. This is a very normal part of life, and we should have support and compassion and empathy, and like we do when our kids are going through puberty, which is a different kind of hormonal disruption, but it's it's real, and you know, we have empathy when a teenager slams the door in
our face, we understand where it's coming from. But when a woman is going through menopause and her hormones are plummeting and she's having angst or you know, my kids get furious with me if I you know, forget what I'm saying, or mom just focus, you know, and I feel bad, but there's no I mean, I try to make them understand it, but they haven't been there, have they. So so yeah.
The community is important and also demanding more of our healthcare system and the medical establishment that they need to pay attention to this. If you want to get smarter every morning with a breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter, wake Up Call by going to
Katiecuric dot com. One of the things I thought was so important that you talk about in the book, Naomi, is there's a whole panoply of symptoms that accompany both perimenopause and menopause, and I think doctors often don't connect the dots. For example, you talked about someone in the book who had heart issues and she was afraid to drive, and she had gone to the cardiologist. Can you tell that story.
Yeah, that came from doctor Kelly Casperson, she was a doctor as well. Yeah, and she was having hot palpitations, which is a very common symptom. Again, I had that too and didn't know, but I also had been diagnosed with a heart murmur very long ago. But this woman was literally at the point where she had to go and get an EKG and they said, no, you're fine.
And then the doctor said, well, how about we test your doctor her friend or doctor, doctor Keli Caspusen said let's test your hormones, let's test your bloods, and sure enough, she was in menopause. And she said, I'm pretty sure that's what it is. And this is a woman who was about to give up.
Driving, right because she was afraid that she would yeah, some hard heart attack, yeah, driving her kids or something. But I think that's also so illustrative of the fact that even doctors don't study this. They spend very little time in medical school studying it. So when these symptoms are presented to medical professionals, they often.
Connecting the dots. I mean every time I do a movie, I have to fill out a questionnaire, a medical questionnaire, and it's like a hundred questions. I was ticking night sweats for a good eight years and no one said, oh, that could be you know, they were I even say it in the book. There's one moment where they think it could be TB tuberculosis because that's a symptom. No one signaled it as that, and I was worried. I was like, what about my night sweat? Oh, that's probably analogy.
Maybe you know I have some food or that extra glass of wine or you know, again like oh it's something I did. My fault, my fault, you know. And skin was another big problem for me as an actor, working under hot lights, lots of makeup day and day.
Out, because you have extremely dry skin. I have very dry skin, irristraated. Do you get eczema?
I get roseatia? I used to and yeah, I was really like having these moments where I was scratching off my skin. It was red irritated. I didn't know what was happening. I went to the dermatologist multiple times, got ointment that was soothing for a minute, but then it would recur. And I had no idea that that was related to menophause, and the doctors neither.
Your story, Naomi, was particularly traumatic because, as you mentioned, you learned you were going through menopause at thirty six, and it coincided with you trying to have a family. So that was sort of a double whammy for you, wasn't It talked about that period of your life and what you experience when you learn that.
Yeah, it was shocking and lonely and scary, and I knew I really wanted to be a mother, and I went into all kinds of panic. I it wasn't a candidate for IVF. I tried clonid, I tried IUIS.
I felt so for you as you were talking about this journey.
Yeah, and there was a lot of shame that came up with it, like if I didn't have my fertility, I didn't have my worth or something, which is absurd. There are lots of ways to become a mother, but I just was self loathing, flagellating all of it. I felt terrible about myself and I felt like it was me that had caused it. I had ruined my body. It was really terrible. I eventually found this fantastic book because I had what's called a high FSH level follicle
stimulating hormone, and this book became my savior. Again. Why I wanted a book, you know, because I would read that book secretly. I've tied that book.
What was it called again?
It was called Inconceivable by Julia Indichova, and she also had a high f SH level and she went through different ways of how to create a lower level. And for whatever reason, whether it was the book, I also was trying Chinese herbs. I went to China. There's a funny story.
With the translator and the doctor and.
It happened to be filming there and I found my way to a herbalist. So, you know, I don't ever want to presume to, you know, push any of these ideas on anyone. What works for you. I mean, if I had been told just cut the toenails off the off your dog and eat them, I would have. I would have. I wanted a baby so badly and nothing was working for me, and it created such depression in me and a sense of failure. But it shouldn't have. It shouldn't have.
But I think also the one of the lessons is that you had no idea that you had a finite period of time. Yeah, and that might have changed some of your choices if you had been aware that perimenopause can start very early.
Yes, exactly right. Yeah, I mean I think I knew that fertility changes, it slows down at thirty five, but I didn't know that, Yeah, perimenopause can be And by the way, that word was not mentioned to me, which feels like a much softer word. I did know. I did remember that my mom had said she went into early menopause at forty five, but I was still a long way from that, right, And I also knew that there were women around me in Hollywood and other places.
Sometimes, by the way, just parenthetically, I think that sort of does a disservice because I think a lot of times these women and I'm happy for them. I'm not
saying anything negative. I'm thrilled they're having children. But sometimes I think people don't appreciate it's through IVF or you know, other means, And I think that we have to be more honest with young women about fertility declining as you get older, you know, just so they can make decisions if they want to freeze their eggs or whatever it is. But I think there was a period of time people had these unrealistic expectations that you could have babies well
into your forties, and it's often not very easy. I know you talk about the Miscarriac rait for example.
Yes, and also, by the way, I tried to freeze my eggs in my early thirties, right when my career started getting going, because I had a feeling that I was going to have to work because another story I mentioned in the book is because I came into it late, at least with my launching, I was told to work, work, work, because it'll all be dried up at forty, right, and
no pun intended. So I had my foot on the gas and I thought, Okay, let me be productive or proactive and go and talk to a doctor about freezing my eggs. And again I was told, don't be silly, you're way too young, that's fine, and it's not a perfect science anyway, and I was sort of turned away. And yeah, and then I came back at thirty six,
and it was it wasn't Those eggs weren't freezable. So I just had to find a way to find my last best possibility and there must have been just a couple more eggs in there.
And happily you did have two children, did I did, And I know after a lot of blood, sweat and tears. So that was a wonderful thing. But I think the cautionary tale is really understand, right, understand your fertility, yeah, and be realistic, I think, and.
I think, yeah, I wanted to be honest about it because to your point, yeah, there's a lot of these women that are having and whatever way you want to do it, that's fantastic, But being honest is helpful. I think to the community around you.
You have found love again, which is so nice. You split with leav Shreiber, your partner and the father of your kids. But you know, I know initially, and I related to so much in your book, having lost my husband and having to start dating again in my forties. But at first you thought, I'm not interested in a romantic partner. I'm just going to focus on my children and my friends.
Yeah, and my work and your work.
That was a lot, yes, yeah, and of what changed your mind or did events just take over?
Yes, I had my head down and wanted to just focus on all of that. And it was the last thing I was expecting. But a friendship created in the workplace and then we just yeah, I was very surprised by it. But we moved so so slowly, really, I mean, people didn't know we were dating for quite a while.
Why don't we name the man in question to whom you're married.
Now I'm married to him, it might be the world. I was working on a show with him, Billy Crudep and the show was called Gipsy. And yes, we formed a great working relationship which led to a great friendship and now a good, wonderful marriage.
That's so, that's so great. And I know that you talk in the book about sort of different needs that you you have at different ages and different things that you may be looking for, which I think is also really helpful to people, because I think it's very difficult for women, I think, to jump back into the dating pool these days, and it's quite scary and different with you know, apps and all that stuff. And what advice would you give to women who would like to find
a partner. I feel very lucky that I found a partner and remarried at fifty seven for crying out loud, and you know, we've got married for ten years. Yeah. And I always say, just get out there and meet people and don't necessarily think of it as finding prince charming. But you know, basing a relationship, I think on friendship is really important. Companionship similar values. Is that what you basically say to your friends who say, does Billy have a brother? Because I get that a lot about the
way is he single? He is? Is he good?
He's great? Okay, So I think the thing about and I and I'm always reluctant to go to deep on my personal stuff with my relationship, but yeah, we have both been through some things, I mean, as you would have it in your late forties, which is when we met, and just you know, not willing to play games and you know, and being able to sit in your most authentic self and just share and communicate easily and or more easily.
Yeah, good relationship, Yes, like being exactly who you are and not being afraid that that's going to scare someone off.
Yeah, I mean, and I have a moment in the book where I talk about it rather awkward moments.
That was so funny. As a farmer patch wearer, I could totally relate to that because at one point I was dating someone I know, sorry everyone, it was a phase. I don't know what I was thinking. He was nice and whatever, but seventeen years younger than I was, and I had my estrogen page and nothing really turns a guy on like an estuga bat, right, especially if they're
seventeen years younger. But you do tell a hilarious story about you and Billy when you're frantically trying to scrub off your estraghip pat.
And if anyone has won one, you know that they take quite a bit of sello grease to get it off. In fact, my doctor at the time said use car oil, and I'm pretty sure I don't want to use that on my body.
And I'm pretty sure I don't have that handy in my bathrooms exactly my handbag.
So yeah, I slipped away, not to get in a nice little sexy let neglige, but to scrape off my patch and leave a nasty.
Because you were embarrassed that you had to pat.
Yeah, But again, being with someone who is uh, you know, understanding and not squeamish. He was not spooked at all, and I was met with compassion and curiosity rather than his own and his own admission, which I'll say for the reader, but it was it was something you know,
See again, we gaslight ourselves. We think this is this is all going to be terrible, and we don't give a chance, you know, for we we just yeah, I mean, if you are owning it and naming it and sharing it with your partner whoever you're with, every chance that they be they might be willing to be helpful, compassionate or yeah, just supportive in ways that we need. So it's a much better option, I think, to just lean into.
It, definitely. And you know we're too old to fake it, right, And it was a.
Great litmus test, like if you can't handle this, then yeah, okay, maybe we're not meant to be.
I think one of the things you said about Billy and your friends reminded you of this at your bachelorette party, which I'm sorry you didn't invite me, Naomi, No, you right, you said, loving him is the kindest thing I've ever done for myself. What a lovely thing to say.
I'll get a lump in my throat, Katie. Yeah, it was. It was It was the truth, and it was something really special that I've let myself have and I hadn't. I didn't think I would be able to do that. I needed a lot of work on myself to get to that place.
I remember this is sort of off topic too, but not necessarily. My late husband when he died, I wrote something about him and I said, he always made me feel safe, sane, and secure. And I think if you have a partner who does that, that's what I think we all should be looking for. And if you don't have a partner that does that, you should reconsider who makes you feel bad about yourself or makes you feel on edge or walking on eggshells, run for the hills.
You know. I wanted to ask you a question that so many of my followers wanted me to talk about with you, which I think is indicative of the.
Age of most of my followers.
And that is pain during sex. And you know, this is something that I think people are really embarrassed to talk about, because I mean, who really wants to talk about vaginal dryness? But it's a real thing, and it can really hurt a relationship and stop people from being intimate.
And when that happens, communication breaks down. Yeah, it can lead to all kinds of.
But having said that, it's really you know, it's something that hasn't gotten a lot of medical attention, and there are ways that you know, basically I think we can explain to everyone. Most people probably know who are asking this question, is a lack of estrogen affects the tissues.
Yeah, the rules of the vagina get thinner and more delicate.
And drier, and so oftentimes sex is painful. And this is again where estrogen comes into play. You know, it's not necessarily it doesn't necessarily go into your body systemically. If you use vaginal estrogen. There's also a ring that's kind of like a diaphragm that you can use that's incredibly hard to get by the way, and expensive, yes, very expensive. But you know, but just to.
Say that estrogen cream, vaginal estrogen cream is pretty safe. The doctors are pretty aligned on that right, pretty.
Much everyone exactly, because it doesn't, as you say, go into your whole system. But this is something that I guess we should say women need to talk with their doctor about and there are things that they can do that will help.
Yes, and also I will just if I can plug my own product. We have vaginal moisturizer called Vadge of Honor because the vagina must be honored and that's also incredibly helpful, and using lubricants that there should be no shame about having a nice pump right by your bed. Yeah, and as you say, I mean, I think women fear having sex because it's painful, and then they can't tell their partners because that's also humiliating, right.
And makes it sort of like men, I'm so sorry, I'm old. I don't have estrogen and it hurts.
And if the conversation doesn't take place, you start making up stuff in your head. The person who's being told no, they can't, you know, they don't want to have sex with you, So it starts thinking, oh, they don't love me anymore, she's having affairs or you know, like.
Or they're going to go somewhere else, They're going to cut somewhere exactly.
Yeah.
And also, by the way, affects your libido to your sex drive. Yes, what can women do about that.
About their libido? Yeah, well they're I mean again, this people that say testosterone can help, and it's not FDA approved for women yet, but I take testosterone. I started taking testosterone a long time ago. I didn't like it. It had adverse effects on me, and I started feeling
a bit like that and I stopped taking it. But I came back to it later on based on a conversation I had with a doctor multiple doctors actually, And now I like it, and I think it's all about trial and error, but it's not for everyone.
And I think they've learned more in the interim from when you first started taking it.
And now yes, exactly, and I feel a bit better about it, and I'm not regular about it, but every now and again I have a little droplet, and there's different delivery methods for testosterone. I have lots of friends who take it and lots of friends who are vehemently again, so again dealer's choice. You do the research and wik it out what's best for you. But it is said to be helpful for libido.
You were an early adapter, Naomi, when it came to coming up with some products that are helpful, and you have your own company called Stripes. But I was curious because it seems like every time I turn around and every time I scroll Instagram, I'm assaulted. Actually I get more older stuff than that, like zaggy breasts and wrinkles.
But there's so many products out there and so many companies, and I personally worry that some of them are not, like they don't have any medical evidence behind them, and that in some cases people are jumping on this menopause bandwagon and selling products that may or may not help. Do you worry about that too, And how do you ensure or that women who were buying your products are actually getting real help and real relief, because I'm sure you care about that.
Yeah, I do care about that, and I you know, our big thing was to help a woman feel seen because so many and heard and like we're really talking directly to her symptoms, which mostly it's about skin from scalp to vadge. We need hydration, We just need you know, ultra ultra rich products that are going to sink into our skin, into our scalp, into our hair, into our body and face and vaginas. And they are all clean ingredients,
not harmful ingredients at all. And I just wanted a woman to feel like that she's really being spoken to and supported, where so many brands are telling you you can reverse a aging you know, we can get rid of your wrinkles, or we can you know, promise the world, and then here they have like a twenty five year old on their campaign ads or whatever. And that's not what it feels good for a woman of my age. I don't want to be promised to the world, and I don't want to look like a twenty eight year
old anymore or a twenty five year old. I want to be just me, but as hydrated as possible and spoken to authentically.
I know that you write about being worried, and you mentioned in our conversation that you know, being all washed up by the time you're forty, and that was common sort of knowledge in Hollywood, or at least that was what women were told or thought that at a certain age they become unfuckable, right, that was the charming expression that you even mentioned in your book. And I'm curious
if you think things are changing in Hollywood. I was very heartened to see a lot of older actresses being celebrated at the Golden Globes.
Yes this year. Look at all of the Oscar nominees and yeah, Golden Globe nominees. There's a litany of women in their fifties driving stories, telling brilliant stories, of sexual stories, stories.
About baby your Fellow be.
A more sexual movie, right right, We've all enjoyed that one. Thanks Nick.
I'll never look at a glass of milk the same way again.
But he needs to do it an email can for sure that will be funny.
Got milk?
So yeah, it's it's heartening things have changed. We're seeing it take place in real time, and I think it's it's a barrage of a lot of things that have converged all at once, and probably mostly driven by the fact that we're living longer.
Right, but we're not living better, which always bums me out. And that's why I think your book is so important, because we are living longer but not in a healthy way, and we have to start thinking about health span instead of lifespan, which I think your book is going to be so helpful about. I wondered if you could read this paragraph you wrote, Oh God, reading aloud is my unrealistic expectations for women in the public.
But grosses, Katie, Oh do you want mine?
Well? They are really strong, they're two point five.
I'm a strong one too. Oh that's good, Okay, good this bit.
Yes.
In Feud Campodi versus the Swans, I got to play the age range of forty to sixty three. I am my age, and my face represents that, and what I bring to a story or a character represents that too. I experienced grief, I've experienced loss. I've experienced a major breakup, and I felt so much shame about having a broken family. Even knowing that my ex and I are both in a happy, healthier relationship and our kids love their new family members, I still feel a sense of failure sometimes.
And so that's the kind of woman. I'm going to play, one who's made sacrifices and hard decisions. I'm not going to be playing someone who's falling in love for the first time. So why shouldn't I just embrace this and own it. It's fair to say I'm all over the place on this issue, sometimes for cosmetic interventions and sometimes against. I just hope society can get to a place where
it can handle a woman who looks her age. I'm counting on people to adjust their tolerance rather than my having to adjust my jows.
I thought that was such a great paragraph. You know, and you want to play a woman who has lived, yeah, and experienced all these things.
Yeah, for now. But I also follow the ideology that one day I might change my mind, So let me have that sure, and I but yes, this is the face I live in. And I wanted to reflect not just the story of the character I'm playing, but the audience's story, and for that to be reflecting what they are going through, and that needs to be as truthful as possible.
You talked about experiencing loss, and I know recently you lost a very close friend in David Lynch, who really I think recognized in you, Naomi, something that you felt a lot of people were overlooking. On Instagram, you wrote, the world will not be the same without him. His creative mentorship was truly powerful. He put me on the map the world I've been trying to break into for
ten plus years, flunking audition and left and right. Finally I sat in front of a curious man, beaming with light, speaking words from another era, making me laugh and feel at ease. How did it even see me? When I was so well hidden and I'd even lost sight of myself. It wasn't just his art that impacted me. His wisdom, humor and love gave me a special sense of belief in myself I'd never accessed before. What a beautiful thing to say about someone.
He really really was that special. And again, I mean I walked into that room and I just felt this beaming energy that put me at ease. And he wanted to connect and I hadn't had that. I would had been flunking all those auditions for ten years and started to put barriers out and was basically what my agent said was unhirable because I was walking into the room with all of this shut down energy. I was, you know,
making people feel uncomfortable with that intensity. I was told I was not funny, not sexy, too intense, to this, to that list goes on, and I was just keen to get out of their way. I would get in the room and be like, I just want the job. You're not gonna give it to me, Okay, I'll just get out of your way. It was really uncomfortable and
painful and humiliating, and I was in a loop. And he somehow connected with me despite what I was, you know, bringing in and allowed me to just release all of those barriers, and he kept me in the room for forty five minutes and just got me talking. And from that day my life changed. I don't think I would still be living in America. If it wasn't for him, I wouldn't have American children. I would have thrown the
towel in. You know. I was at that point where I couldn't have tolerated it any longer if I didn't have a breakthrough. And not only did he give me a role of a.
Lifetime in Mulholland.
Yeah, I mean there were two I've had two characters to play that were diametrically opposite, and sometimes you don't get those kind of roles in one whole career, much less a movie. So it was just like this unbelievable showcase for every I mean obviously every director saw that film because David Lynch, his body of work comes with, you know, extraordinary interest.
And he's so he was so courageous, right and how he did things and why he did things.
Yes, and that film stands up today. I was just on his birthday on January twentieth, which he didn't live to see. We created a collective meditation around the world as well as he's At the IFC, they played his movie muholland drive our movie, and we went and introduced the film myself and Justin threw and yeah, that film does live on and it is one that will continue to be talked about because it was so unique. And
that's all of his films. He doesn't explain them for people to say, this is the formula and I get it right away. He wants you to take it away and make it your own version and of you know, whatever, however you understand it.
I watched a wonderful clip of you doing crying at a table and then turning away, and then everyone on the set burst into applause. Do you remember that?
I do? I do. He created an environment where not only did you feel safe, but unbelievably creatively charged and at your best. He accessed all the best parts of everyone. And so that's the loss that I'm experiencing it, But
I'm comforted by the joy. You know, if you've spent any time reading articles about him over the last week, there's so much joy that people have experienced through connection with whether it's his film or him personally, And people are so expressive about that and that is the comfort and in his loss. But I wish there were more like him. I wish there were more people like him, because he was, yeah, one of a kind, a real teacher.
When we lose people like that, I think we think about the people they were and how we could be more like them. Yes, and I wonder if you have been thinking about that.
Yeah, certainly his presence, his ability to be so present and so himself unapologetically. You know, there's another great video there where he gets annoyed by someone telling them him that he's taking too much time in a certain shot and he's like, screwed, time, don't tell me about time. And so his anger is justified because he doesn't want to obey the rules. He wants to do it his way.
And there's something just so wonderfully pure about that he's on He's doing making art on his own terms, and that's admirable.
I feel like you are sort of at a similar place in your life. You know, you're living your life on your own terms, your authentic self. You're sharing very personal things I think in service of the greater good to help other women. I feel like you're you must think about that, Naomi, like this is a really good place to be. I'm happy, and I'm fulfilled, and I have purpose and I'm doing.
I was going to say that it has given me a sense of purpose and at this point in my life that I didn't know I find and through owning my story, I've found the most remarkable community of women as well as doctors and people who want to share their stories. And it's been I feel very bolstered by that community and very empowered about sharing and bringing people into the same community as And yeah, it should be
a time to thrive. It should be. And I've a lot of great things have happened for me in my fifties that I'm really proud of. And it's to do with the fact that I have done a lot of work on myself and I'm much more conscious and in my mind and in my body, and I hope that for others too.
I thought it was funny that people DM you all the time, all the other actors and actresses. I know we're supposed to say actors, but I still, yes, in this case, we can say actresses. Questions about menopause, you know, I'm often a clearing house for questions about cancer, you know, I get so many people asking me about that. But it must be funny. You have a constant stream of dms with people asking you questions about menopause.
Yes, it was a funny moment where random people that I've sort of met but not I don't know necessarily, and someone's linked us up. And I think it's just that confession that need to Oh God, I'm here, what do I do? And you know, whether it's a need for just an ear or a shoulder, I'm there for them. You're the metopause guru, right who knew that would be my future? Or if it was, it's you know, I need a doctor. I asked what city they're in. If I don't know, I'll find a way through the doctors.
I know there's a circuit we all communicate with each other. And yeah, I kind of love that. I love that I'm one of their first calls.
Well, the book is called Dare I say it everything I wish i'd known about menopause. I just admire you so much. I love your work and I'm so happy you wrote this book because I think it's going to help so many women.
Thank you. Thanks for having me, Katie.
Thanks for listening. Everyone. If you have a question for me, a subject you want us to cover, or you want to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world, reach out send me a DM on Instagram. I would love to hear from you. Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. Executive producers are Me, Katie Couric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz, and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian
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