Mr. Jones Goes to Washington

am actually the co host of that podcast. Thank you for the impression of my nasal voice. That is sort of what I said, hopefully a little less obnoxious. No no, no, no, But that was so cool. It was really cool, and he was very nice, and he said that he liked a couple past episodes of our show. So it was very nice to meet a listener. And Grant, thank you very much for listening. I second that, Grant, thank you

for downloading our podcast, and we're glad you're enjoying it. Me. We're here in Washington to interview the junior senator from the state of Alabama, Senator Doug Jones. He's Alabama's first Democratic senator in twenty five years exactly. And this all came about because Jeff Sessions quit his Senate sy to become Donald Trump's Attorney General. I wonder whether he's still

glad he left. By the way, anyway, there was a special election to replace Sessions, and Alabama, as many of our listeners know, because our listeners are very smart, is a deeply read state that went overwhelmingly for President Trump in two thousand sixteen. The empty seat was expected to go to a Republican candidate, any Republican candidate, quite easily.

But but as our listeners are very smart listeners probably remember last fall, several women gave on the record accounts accusing the GOP candidate Roy Moore of making sexual advances toward them when they were teenagers. And by the way, the Washington Post just won a Politzer Prize for its coverage of that story. As congratulations to my friend to

the Washington Post. So, Doug Jones defeated Roy Moore, and Alabama's African American voters in particular came out in overwhelming numbers in support of Jones, but not so much the

white voters in Alabama. No, he only got thirty of the white vote, which was enough but barely enough to win so anyway, In today's show, we'll get to know Alabama's newest senator from his teenage years and newly integrated public schools to his role in prosecuting to Ku Klux Klan members responsible for an infamous nineteen sixty three Birmingham church bombing that killed four young black girls, and full

disclosure Doug Jones. Senator Jones is a good friend of my second cousin, Henry Frozen and his lovely wife Caroline down of Birmingham, Alabama. And uh so I have a little bit of a connection with him through my cousin Henry, through your Gothic Southern roots. That's right. So here we are in his office, and it was it was very exciting to be able to interview Senator Jones to come to the Capitol. I always get a kick out of

being here, no matter how many times I've been. And our first question to him was a very simple one. What is it like when Mr Jones comes to Washington here you are, Yeah, yeah, it's it's as exciting as it's ever been for me. What's exciting about it? Well,

you know, a part of It is just surreal. And part of it the excitement is is just literally, you know, starting my career here, I mean with Senator Heflin from Alabama, who I just really looked up to his entire life and still do look up to him for advice in many ways. And to have walked off the Senate floor, which I think is a real place of reverence as a twenty six year old Senate staffer with him, and to come back in his seat, you know too many years later, but still to walk back on it is.

I get chills every time I walk in and to just you know, walk off the elevator and those the pages open, those double doors, and to walk onto the floor, it's just remark it's just amazing. I'm just honored. I'm humbled to be here. It's just as exciting as actutive ever thought it might be. You're getting kind of Yeah, it will, it will absolutely. And I noticed here in your office, your new office, there's a picture and a place of honor above the man of you and Senator

Heflun Yeah, he was. He was an amazing guy. The day I was sworn in, and I wore a pair of his cufflings. Uh. The only time I've worn him I got from his son who Uh Tom, Well, I mean, I think because well, first of all, you have to remember, the Senate is a far different place today than it was then. And in those days, you know, bipartisanship was really more than a catch slogan and a campaign or

a sound bite. Uh, they really did it. And you know, you had regular order in which bills went through committees and there were hearings, and you get it to the Senate floor and you have the opportunities for amendments and real debates like the Senate was designed to do. And we just don't do that anymore. I mean there are senators that have been here for two and four years that really have never seen regular order. You know, that's

what it is. And so that's he had that ability I think as a as a Southern Senator to really bridge the gaps a lot, to reach across the aisle. You know, he voted in with President Reagan a lot, he voted with President Clinton a lot. He was just a really great role model and would uh and and back home in Alabama. Uh, he was loved by all sorts of folks. I'll never forget in nineteen seventy eight.

When he first ran this was seventy eight, he had done the judicial article that the quote I always remember was from the director of the Alabama Civil Liberties Union with that, you know, pretty liberal group in Alabama and elsewhere. But his comment in a Time magazine article was that Judge Heflin is the kind of public servant of which he, his mother, and his grandmother can all agree. That says it all to me. If you can bridge that span

of generations, you're really doing the right thing. I know we could probably spend hours talking about what happened, but Senator, you know, you're just describing what it was like here when you were a Senate staffer, and now it seems completely dysfunctional. Yes, no, I won't say it's completely dysfunctional, but it's it's close. Um. The budget process is just horrible.

It is just something that we should not You should not be funding the government of the United States on a kick the can down the road basis, and everybody trying to put must have um, you know, special things in a in a budget bill and a must pass bill. I think it's a long time coming. Um. I can't really pinpoint one thing I think you go back to the Clinton in peachment and how folks really started attacking uh President Clinton, Uh and the first lady at the time.

I think that carried over some and folks attacked George W. Bush, except for you know, after nine eleven and in people rallied around. But since that time and with the election of Barack Obama, it just seems that everything has become more and more and more polarized and rancor us and the votes that are done are really political messaging votes.

A lot even on nominees their political messaging votes. Um. I will say, Katie, there's a lot more collegiality in the Senate that goes on that that people don't see, and that has been very good for me to be able to see. You often see the dueling press conferences, or you see you know, one senator from either party going on the floor and railing against whatever or railing for something. But what you don't often see as work going on with staff and behind the scenes, UM, in

the committee level. You don't see when we take votes over there people on both sides of the all talking to each other, not just hidden back in the cloak rooms, but they're they're talking about their kids, and they're talking about different There's a lot more of that, but it just comes to when it comes down to the schedule

of the Senate. The majority leader controls that, and I think the majority leader, whether it has been Republican or Democrat, has controlled that in a little bit more political way than what the Senate has traditionally done in the past.

There's been a lot of discussion about members of Congress not spending time together because they're so quick to go home and you know, run for re election and the fundraising needs are so But you're saying, have you been able to spend time with people from you know, Republican senators in a social way? Some not as much as as as I would like. I've some for lunch, We've met for breakfast. Um, most of that time has been spent on the floor when we're over there for a vote,

just talking or at a committee uh level. But that's that's right. People leave. I get out of here on on Thursdays. I've told you I've been here three and a half almost four months now. I don't know what Washington, d C. It looks like anymore, because I I get to the office I have a really full schedule. I'm back and forth to the Capitol, or I'm back and

forth to the dirks in our heart building for for hearings. UH. As soon as the order of business is done, there's a reception for somebody in Alabama, or there's a fundraising reception for someone else, or for me. Go back to my little place at nine o'clock at night, read the briefing books for the next day, get up and do it all over again. So there's not as much I think people do miss, you know, the weekends where folks didn't feel compelled to go home. But it's the world

we live in today that's not as much. Congress. I think that as much as anything is the demands of our the people that we represent. They want to see us. You used to run a campaign against somebody who gets detached from the people at home. They don't go home anymore. They stay in Washington, d C. And you run against the Beltway. So people started going home, and people started demanding they want to see their U. S. Senator, even

if they didn't vote for him or her. They want to see, they want to talk, they want to be able to reach out at least that's my philosophy. So we're we're getting back home a lot, uh and starting to try to move around. When you talked about rising partisanship, you mentioned the opposition to President Obama, and we're gonna talk more about race later. But how much of um, the intense opposition to him do you think was driven

by the fact that he was the first African American president. Well, personally, I think it was. I think there was a good bit um, but that kind of bubbled up from the ground. I don't I don't. I don't abscribe that to any of the in the Senate. I really don't believe that. I think it was just a political thing and that folks saw an opportunity because there was such opposition there were You couldn't find anybody in Alabama that would ever say that they were opposed to President Obama because of

his race. But you always knew that that was an underlying part of a good bit of the opposition. There's no question, ever admit that nobody's ever gonna mean, not many people. But when Donald Trump raised the issue of his birth certificate, do you think he was playing the race card? Yes, absolutely, I think he I think I think it was playing a race card. But I also think he was playing a Trump card, for lack of

a better term. I mean, I quite frankly think that that was as much as anything, because he knew that there was a base out there that that believed that there were a lot of people that really believed that and thought that and it was so bogus. But Trump saws an opportunity to play that card to build his uh stature some And then you know, it was only after it got completely debunked and he saw it was gonna be a negative for him that he very timidly said,

oh yeah, well maybe I was not right. I don't even think he said that seat of Donald Trump. He's been president for a little over a year. Now, how do you think he's doing so far? But before you tell us that, have you met him? Yeah? I have. He called me the day after the election, was very nice, um, you know, congratulating me on the win, said he was looking forward to having me to the White House and to work together. There was no you know, there was

nothing you which begs a very nice call. Uh. It took about a month I think when we the first government shut down. I mean, think of this how many, how many how many senators get sworn in and then they have a chance to shut the government down after a month. I mean, that's just was crazy. Um. And when we voted back up, he called over here and asked that I and Senator Mansion go to the White House, and so we went over there that afternoon, and again

it was just a pleasant conversation. Um. You know, General Kelly was there, there were a couple of other folks in the room, and there was not any kind of hard bargains. You know, DACA and immigration was the biggest issue driving things at that point, but there was none of that. There was a little bit of talk of that. There was some talk about infrastructure. I told him about some specific infrastructure issues with sewers and things like that in Alabama that I thought he should know about. So

it's just a little pleasant call. That was the only that's been the only time I've seen the legislative folks a couple times. And you you actually were there. Wasn't just a call, no, no, no, we went over there. We were we sat in the Oval office, and you know, we were there, and he just he wanted to the southern kind of call. Yeah, that's what I mean. We called on him. He called on up and and and so we but we were there. They were literally holding a vote for me and Joe because the President just

kind of wanted to talk a little bit. And I think he enjoyed the talk, and we we kicked around a few things. We were there about forty five minutes, I guess, and and literally had to just like zoom back, and he was pleasant to us. It was it was a nice conversation. I had no no complaints about that conversation at all. President Trump has been in office a little over a year. How do you think he's doing

so far? Well. I think it's a mixed bag. I mean, I think the President is doing some a lot of what he said he was going to do, and and in that respect, respect, you've got to, you know, give him some high marks, even though I don't like a lot of the things he's doing. I don't like a lot of the rollbacks he's doing by executive orders and those kind of things. I don't like the fact that e p. A Is being dismantled right before our eyes.

I don't like the fact that he has done some things on foreign policy that I think has has diminished the United States of America standing in the world. Well, I think you know that all of the tariffs, I think all of the just things he's done in Europe to just basically pull away from, you know, being the world leader and the moral leader of the world that we've always been, I think that that is pulling back. On the other hand, he showed some toughness in Syria.

Uh he is. I didn't particularly like the name calling with North Korea, and that scared me to death. But there's you know, he's at least I think they're planning some things and people are a little bit more hopeful now about some resolution with North Korea about that. Yeah, he brought Kim john n ostensibly or apparently to the table,

and I think people have mixed feelings about it. You think it's a good thing, Well, I think, Look, any time that you can deflate the tensions that we had there about four or five months ago, I think that's a good thing. Now. I think people got very concerned, as did I. And this was before I was elected. When you started seeing Twitter wars, which was just silly junior high school name calling rocket man, you know, just all sorts of things beneath the dignity of the President

of the United States. On the other hand, I also know enough about the United States government to know there was a lot going on behind the scenes. And so I think between what the administration has done, uh and what the world has kind of done as well, because we're not the only ones putting pressure on North Korea. Their their economy isn't the shambles. They're incredibly poor. Um, they need the world. They need the world a lot

more than the world needs them. And so I think there was a combination of things that is, at least for the time being, kind of ratcheted down the threat level. That's not to say that their North Korea is not still a threat, because they certainly are. And I don't take the recent events of pulling back and suspending their nuclear testing as anything more than what is normally done in anticipation of more talks. I mean, that's fairly standard

for even a road nation like like North Korea. Right now, we'll see how that goes. And we've now started trade wars with China when we really need China to help us with North Korea. It's a real complicated thing, which I gotta tell you, Katie, is is all of those answers you gotta figure a year ago. I'm just a lawyer in Birmingham alumn Okay, So so keep all this in mind when I'm I'm waxing eloquent. I'm still learning

a lot. But the criticism has been that you shouldn't reward Kim jongun with a presidential meeting without having demonstrated real meeting progress. I don't disagree with that at all. And we're not there yet. We that meeting is not taking place. I think what's come out of the administration is he would like to I don't have a problem

with that, but we'll see. Because I am of the camp that certainly, uh, there needs to be something more than oh, we're going to suspend right now before the leader of the free world meets with someone like, uh, the North Korean leader. Sounds like you're willing to give President Trump some some prompts on a few things. Sure, I mean, he's you know, look, he's the thing. He's being treated unfairly in the media. I'm not sure I'll go that far, because I think he treats the media

a lot more unfairly than the media treat him. UM. I don't buy into the fake news argument or anything like that. Um. I've got my own criticism some of the media where I think the media focuses on issues that sell newspapers and podcast and you know, and and thist not this one, of course not um. But you know, so there there's a combination of things. Um. Has he been treated unfairly in certain circumstances, Yes, But at the same time, you know, there's some things he he has

said and done that I think is fair game. A lot of what he's done is fair game. So I don't think overall, I don't think he's been treated unfairly at all. On the other hand, you know, I mean, when did we think that we were going to use the term the president in the same sentence as a porn star? I mean what what? Yeah, no, no, I I get it. It's it will almost daily make your

head explode. I mean that and all the other allegations that that have come up, and the collusion and and whether a lawyer is going to flip or not flip flip on what I mean. It's there is a cavalcative things that are are disturbing. I think for people to look at and there's a lot I know of a lot of investigations, and so in that context, I don't

think that there's an unfairness at all with that. My concern is that the president is able to use his social media platform to basically say, just don't look at any of that. It's all fake. Well it's it's not all fake. I mean, there are facts out there, and sooner or later, there's a lot of facts that are gonna come out. We just don't know where they're gonna land.

You've been a practicing lawyer your whole life and a former U S attorney, were also a defense attorney, So I was curious to ask you about how you've felt when you see what's going on with the president's lawyer, Michael Cohen, and what kinds of things, Senator, would you be looking for if you were in charge of this investigation. Wow, Okay,

that's a that's a that's a pretty loaded question. Um. First of all, let me let me let's let's back up just a little bit, because having a search warrant executed on the office and the home of a lawyer and the hotel room and the hotel is it there's a number of steps that you have to go through, and you know you have to. So let's go back, and you know, the Special Counsel presented some evidence to the Justice Department that, however they got it, they believe

showed that there was some potential criminal activity. Remember, it's just a probable call standard, it's not proof beyond a reasonable doubt or anything like that. And so the Special Counsel presented that to Rod Rosenstein, the Deputy Attorney General who's in charge of that. That was appropriate for them to do. In any major investigation. When you're subpoenaing as many witnesses and as many documents, the odds are you're going to find something outside of your lane that you

see as a potential problem. It happens in every major investigation. And the Special Council stand up situation though his lane is is such that unless it's really related, he shouldn't be doing it. So he presented it to the Dag and Rosenstein says, this is not in your lane. I'm gonna I'm gonna move it to where it needs to be. So that's step number one. Everybody did their exact right thing.

They did exactly what the law requires. Rosenstein then assigns it, they look at it, and I can to the U. S Attorney for the Southern District, who I understood me

have recused himself. But let now they're there are prosecutors on the ground, just like in my office in Birmingham where that are looking at this and are evaluating this evidence for probable cause to see that a crime was committed, that Mr Cohen may have been involved in the crime, and that there are documents in his possession that they can't really get hold of or they don't believe they can get except through the use of a search warrant,

which is a pretty extraordinary procedure. And so there's layer upon layer of review within the Justice Department in order to get approval to then go to a judge who has to review it independently before that search warrant is issued. So Mr Cohen's in trouble, I mean, he's I mean, there's some real issue now. I've seen in my in my lifetime, in my career, there have been any number of search warrants issued that resulted in no criminal charges

for whatever reason. Could that be the case here? Absolutely, But the fact is the rule of law is prevailing at this point, and I'm convinced the rule of all will prevail and if there's a problem there, he will get charged. If there's not a problem, and I'm convinced the rule of all will prevail and that case will be closed. But it's a really that's and that's just Cohen. And then you've got Mueller's special counsel doing their own work, and unknown Bob Mueller a long time. Um, he is

the consummate professional. Everybody up here believes that and knows that, at least here in the Senate, he is moving efficiently. He is doing so without a lot of leaks, which is incredibly important. Um. And so you know there's gonna there's gonna be some things yet to fall. They're doing a lot of work. Where that goes, no one knows, and we shouldn't continue to speculate about that. Until said that, though, if you were President Trump, would you be more worried

about Michael Cohen or Bob Muller. Well, I think that anytime somebody's lawyer is subpoena and you would have to worry about that because there are potentially things that could come to light that are generally you would have thought privileged that may not be a crime, but you just don't want them to do that. But at the same time, it's a little bit inconsistent from what I'm hearing right

now is that I'm not worried about Michael Cohen flipping. Okay, well, I mean, you know, if somebody has not done anything wrong, you know, you should be the first to say, Michael, please cooperate, give him everything, look at all this, And instead it's like, oh, I trust him, He's not gonna flip.

That's a little bit disturbing, and it tells me unfortunately for the President, he is not listening to his lawyers because I guarantee his his personal lawyers are just cringe every time something like that is said, because it makes him. I think he's not versed enough in this world of federal criminal law to understand the terminology, and he's saying things that really make him look bad. I would I would be I would be locking him in a safe I mean, I'm just telling you, I would. You know.

The worst thing is to have clients out there on Twitter and talking I like that because they it always comes back to haunt you. You know, Katie in the church bombing cases and one of the things that we did in Charity's case. After he was interviewed, he called a press conference and we used his statements as evidence against him, but with a number of things he said. So you know, all the clients should listen to their lawyers, and we're gonna talk more about that case in a moment.

But one last thing. You said that everybody up here respects Bob Mueller. That said Mitch McConnell won't bring up legislation to protect Mueller's investigation in case the President at some point decides to fire him. Why do you think he's said, I don't know. I don't know. I think that there's a bipartisan bill that I think is a very reasonable bill. I don't know. It's got to come

out of committee. I think it might this week. And one reason maybe because Senator McConnell doesn't think it would ever pass the House, UH and the President would never sign it. From my standpoint, that's not a reason not

to put it up. I think the Senate of the United States needs to speak on that issue and let folks know where they stay end uh, and if they stand with trying to protect the Special Counsel as a body Uh, they ought to say so if they don't want to do that, they need to be on record and to say that they don't. And when you heard that about Mitch McConnell, I mean, what did you think. I just was disappointed. Um, there may be things in his mind that I just don't know. I would hope

that that would come up. I would hope that that if that can get through the committee in a bipartisan way, there would be enough pressure from his own caucus to say, you know, bring to this, this to the going back to this regular order business. I think that there are times when the Senator of the United States needs to speak. Let the chips fall where they're going to fall, but speak, let that message go forth, and it doesn't matter whether the House would go along with it or the president.

We're an independent body and we need to speak. We'll be back shortly with Alabama Senator Doud Jones right after this time to dig into the listener mail bag, everybody. Thank you to our listeners who responded to our request for dispatches from rural areas. We wanted to hear from folks and communities that have been impacted by factory closings.

The opioid epidemic and or battles over immigration. So we got this voicemail from an anonymous listener who I think really sums up some of the challenges in rural America right now. And let's listen. My parents live in Skinny Ollis, New York, which is adjacent to Cortland that used to be the home of Wilf Tennis rackets, broadway truck and a sewing machine company. And unfortunately to town is completely dried up since it's been so impoverished. The opioid epidemic

is run rampant through um these towns. Lack of funding, lack of business, lack of trade brings fewer dollars to the community, which means there's less police present, which makes it even more prone to high crime. But the setting it's so rampant that um, I believe it's also causing many people their lives from from suicide. We really appreciate that call, and sadly, Brian, what that gentleman was talking

about is all too true. In fact, there's something called deaths of despair which talks about people taking their own lives or turning to drugs or alcohol, and many people are dying in record numbers. In my White working Class or White Anxiety episode, Erie, Pennsylvania has its suicide rate has skyrocketed and the average ages of forty seven year old white male. It's a huge problem in many rural and rust belt community all over the country. That's right. And a lot of these areas have a lack of

access to drug treatment and mental health treatment. So all of these problems are really compounded by the lack of resources for people who need help. And I think one of the things we tried to do in this episode is to actually hear from people in these communities and understand the struggles that they're dealing with as this economic transition has left many of them out in the cold.

As always, thank you so much for calling, Thank you for your honesty, and we really really appreciate your feedback. It's important for us to hear from all of you. Next up your Brain on tech, more specifically tech addiction. That's a topic from America inside out that will be tackling next on this podcast. Is technology causing all of us to somehow lose our humanity. We want to hear from those of you who think you have a real

problem with tech like quite honestly, I did. Maybe you're hooked on your martphone or someone close to you is when did you realize this was an issue? How is it impacting your life, your relationship, the way you spend time, or maybe you've put your foot down and refused to get a smartphone, or you've gone back to a flip phone. We want to hear about that as well, So call and leave us a message at nine to nine to to four four six three seven, or you can email

us at comments at current podcast dot com. Or you can check out our episode from last August with Gene Twingy on tech Addiction. I thought it was a particularly interesting and insightful one. That's episode number thirty six on

your podcast player. Let's talk a little bit about your backstory, Senator, because you're the first Democrat to win the ruby red state of Alabama since and um, you grew up obviously in Birmingham and such a tumultuous time and really the height of the civil rights movement, and I'm curious what you remember growing up. And I was also interested to

read that you come from a family of George Wallace. Yeah, they were supporters, supporters, what sort of gave you an epiphany growing up that this mentality needed to be challenged. I think that there was a combination of of a lot of things. And my family was a pretty conservative. They were George Wallace backers, but they weren't haters. They

weren't a vowed racist. And there was a big difference because Wallace was not only race baiting, but he was also running against the federal government zone and there was this protection that Alabama has. You know, people often say Missouri is the show me state in Alabama's to make me state, and that's there's a there's been some truth to that over the years. I was nine years old, for instance, in sixty three, and as the world change,

it seemed that kids changed easier than parents did. Parents and grandparents who had grown up in a society in which there were norms. Me. You can call it America's on or part out or whatever you call it, but that's where things were. You know, when I was in school, you know, we started having integrated schools. It was freedom of choice plans, and I think kids adapted. My school did a pretty good job I think of adapting to those things, the band, the football team, everything that sounds

like you did a good job too. I thought it was very moving to read accounts from African American students who went to school with you and the kind of person you were and the way you reached out to them in a way that quite frankly, many of your white classmates didn't. Well, I think the goal was going back. You know, we had a predominantly white high school, we had an all black high school in the photo courts

combined them all. And the one thing I learned in my like freshman and first part of my sophomore year and high school was what how much fun high school can be? And and so I think there were with me and others wanted to make that high school experience what it should be. It should be fun, you know, you should do all the things that teenagers do, both good and bad. And the only way to do that is to try to reach out and to talk to people,

and to try to accommodate. When you've got two schools coming together and they've got different, completely different traditions, trying to mold those two, you can't force one on the other. The student council president, I was, you know, what what can I say? You should say it's you know, it's interesting that the KKK has played a significant role in your life for a long time. I mean, I remember

reading in law school. You would cut class to see this this case, this church bombing case, which you resuscitated as the U S attorney much later in your career. Can you describe that case, why it was so important to you, and what ultimately happened with it and what you saw when you were a law student. Well, what I saw when I was a law student it was a dramatic courtroom drama. I mean, I wanted to be

a trial lawyer. To me, lawyers, you know, weren't weren't people sitting at desk closing loans and things like that, and they's they're great. I'm not saying anything bad about any of that. Laws. We love lawyers all all kinds. But to me, lawyers were Perry Mason and people in courtrooms and you know, and the Atticus Finch, the drama, the justice. All of that came from being a trial lawyer. And that's what I so when I cut classes, it was not just because it was a significant historical case.

And by the way, can you just quickly parenthetically described that case for our listeners to remind them. Yeah. Now, in nineteen sixty three, September fift on a Sunday morning, a bomb exploded at him been placed outside underneath the steps of the sixteenth Street Baptist Church and right but by it was the large oneow that led straight into the ladies lounge in the basement of the church, and there were five young girls. They're getting ready for a

youth worship service and that momb killed four. Uh. It was a Sunday morning, between Sunday school and church. It was gonna be a youth worship service and those girls were down there to be part and to get ready for that. And it was a real, I believe, turning moment a Birmingham had just gone through uh, fire hoses

and dogs in the spring of sixty three. What what people forget is that the schools of Birmingham were gonna were integrated like five days before that bombing, which was really I think that the catalyst for for why that bomb was planted there. And the case went unsolved despite incredible efforts of the FBI and prosecutors at the time, they just couldn't quite make it. There was only a

five year statue of limitations in federal court. So the case was closed, and then a young Alabama Attorney General, Bill Backsley opened it up in nineteen seventy one when he was sworn in as Alabama's a G. Brought the case against Robert Chambliss, known as Dynamite Bob Um. You can't make this up, you know, in ninety seven, and that's when I thought, Okay, this is not a just a historical case. Baxley is one of the great trial lawyers.

I wanted to be a trial lawyer. So just like three years before, I'd been with Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas on a trip when he took to Alabama University of Alabama and I and then talking about advice for a young trial lawyer, he said, go watch trials, Go see good trial lawyers ply their trade. And so that was the perfect opportunity. And I sat in the balcony most of the time. I sneak up in the balcony and watched from above the testimony and Bill's dramatic closing argument,

in which everybody in the courtroom was in tears. He convicted Chambliss. Chambliss went to his grave from prison, never ever talking about the cases, and you know, it kind of stayed on a shelf for twenty four years, And it was right before I became the U S Attorney in nine seven that publicly it was announced that it was reopened. And you know, I'll never forget the day

when I read that it was gonna be open. I told my wife, you know, Louise, this is kind of why you go back to be a public servant, because this is an opportunity here and it's gonna define how we do things in the States. So it's amazing. How hard was it to prosecute the cases of the two other individuals. You know, it sounds harder than it was. It was hard to investigate. There were so many people had died, witnesses, potential witnesses we were tracking down. We

didn't have any real physical evidence. So putting the pieces of that puzzle together was extraordinary. And we you know, Bobby Frank Cherry was one of the defendants. He made certain admissions over the years that people came forward and told us about. We found in a tape recording that had been made of a of a bug that had been put in Tommy Blanton's apartment talking to his then wife about the bombing and what he was doing that weekend.

So things just fell in place for us, so that when we finally got to trial, we had a process that we stuck to consistently, and it everything worked really good. We had a good judge, the defense lawyers were lawyers that we trusted, and they trusted us, so there was not a lot of really anger or anything. It was a very methodical presentation, and I just felt very good that at the end of the day we painted a picture.

The pieces of those puzzle at the end were pulled together in closing arguments that showed beyond a reasonable doubt that those two guys were guilty. That must have been an extraordinarily important moment for the city of Birmingham, and for the state of Alma, and for the country. Really,

and yet here we are. I was in Charlottesville, Virginia senator when that so called all right, really white supremacist neo Nazi rally took place, and I remember listening to Reverend Tracy Blackman from Ferguson, Missouri the night before at an interface service when there were scores of white, predominantly white men, many of them young, and Brooks brother Khakis and Isazad you know, what do you call this lacast shirts uh looking all neat and clean with their torches,

their tiki torches. And she said, the clan is rising again because we never cut the head off. Yeah, when you saw those scenes from Charlottesville, my my, my heart sunk. I mean, you just you cannot believe that that's still going. You see the images, you see that the chance, I mean,

it was just stunning to me. And remember a year before that it was Dylan Rufe going into another church in Charleston, South Carolina and killing nine p people um and talking about the race war things that we heard from the nineteen sixties and and all the Confederate battle flags that are flying and things like this. I'm not sure I would say you didn't cut the head off, because you know, I think that Mars Desent some mothers really did an incredible job about the organized clan. This

is not this is different. The rise of social media has allowed you know, hate groups to come up as Internet groups that can get together when they talk among themselves. You know, even as early when I was your attorney, I was there from one I would give speeches to uh PTA groups, to say, monitor to your kids. I mean, those were old days of a O L group chats and things like that, not anywhere like it is today. But to monitor that because you were beginning to see

the rise of folks who harbored these feelings. There were a lot of lone wolves that we saw in the early two thousands, uh in Texas, in Illinois and other places that were committing these hate crimes. It's certainly one of those things that I don't understand. But yet I from an intellectual standpoint, I can see the rise. With the social media presence that we have now, it just

breeds that kind of kind of interaction. So but but it's and and that's hard to cut because you can you can change laws, you can prosecute people, you can do all those things, but that doesn't change somebody's heart. What was your reaction when President Trump said that there were fine people and almost almost yelled at the TV, I'm Mr President, there are no fine people among white supremacists and clans and neo Nazis. They're not They're not fine people. So why do you think you said that

I have no idea? Well, you really have no idea. You don't think he was trying to appeal to that group, used it as part of his face. You know, look, I'm not gonna go there, you know, I I just I see that, and intellectually you can ways say that. I have no idea. Sometimes politicians say stupid things to not to just try to appeal, but to try to play both sides. I don't want to accuse him of that, although I've probably done it in the past. I just

think that that was just all button moronic statement. Book. And what really bothered me about at the most is that the president had such an opportunity to drive a stake in somebody's heart, to say, to to cut the head off a little bit about Donald Trump, of all people could have done that, and if he'd done it the right way, it would have been so significant. And he missed that opportunity. And whether he intended or not,

it did embolden people. There's no question that that statements like that, uh and and to some extent his campaign emboldened that aught right in the neo Nazi folks. In words matter asked someone from Alabama, you know, Brian Stevenson is opening his lynching museum, and in this episode for Naccio that I did about Confederate monuments. Uh. He talked about the history we've neglected by E. Lynch ing, Uh, slavery and the long Tail and the Jim Crow South.

How do you feel about Confederate statute, Senator, Well, one, I'm going down to this weekend for the e g I opening is but most of the events and I can't wait. You know, my my personal view is that I am not a fan of those monuments. I think from a personal standpoint, they should be removed from public places. Uh. That's a personal thing of mine. What I have said, though,

is that I don't believe that the Congress. I don't believe a state legislature should tell a community what to do with those If it was up to me, I would put them in a historical place, because they are part of a history that you can't erase, and you can't you can't deny that history, good or bad. But I would move them to historical places, whether it's a battlefield, it's a cemetery or whatever, away from public display where

they're being a government is paying for them. At the same time, I think local people are in the best position to do that. The city council's the county commissions.

I don't think it's the Alabama legislatures uh prerogative, for instance, to pass a law that says that you, Mr. Mayor and the city council, despite the fact that you were elected locally by your people, and you're gonna answer to them that you can't move that monument that's been up for fifty years, that was put in your community when it was a far different community. Because that's the legislation.

That's exactly any any statute or monument that was placed before nineteen seventy seven, it would be against the law to remove that. That is no place for the Alabama legislature. I don't care what they say. It is just not a place that should be a local decision. I don't think Congress should intervene in any of that, but historical places where, in my opinion, my personal opinion, that's where

they ought to be. When you ran in Alabama, you really shocked the world by winning in such an overwhelmingly Republican state. On the other hand, opponent was an alleged pedophile, and he still got forty eight and a half percent of the vote, including eighty percent of Evangelical Christians. He won white women by twenty nine, even though there's compelling evidence that when he was in his thirties he went after a fourteen year old girl. How do you explain

I was going to say with that wind up? The question is what up with that? Yeah, I I can't. I can't completely explain that except for this, and this is just my again trying to do a little bit of a deep dive. And where we where things were. We always believe that is the number of people in the race went up, then things were going to tighten up. We're gonna win that election. I'm absolutely convinced we were

gonna win that election. The worst day of the campaign was when those those allegations came up, because this is what I think that we're safe for you, Yes, absolutely absolutely. You know my staff the campaign, they were all dancing on tables and I said, get off, guys, because let me tell you what's going to happen. Because now all of a sudden, attention is going to be drawn. The race is going to turn tribal. And I hate to use that word. I don't like that work, but it's

so appropriate. And because now people started thinking about it, in those terms. You know, in a lot of places in America, not just in Alabama, but when you start making allegations against somebody you've supported in the past, they tend to support them. And then in a in an era in which the leader of the United States has said nothing but fake news, it's real easy to say, that's fake news. They're just making this up. It's the Washington Post. We don't like them. It's just the liberal

elitist um outsiders the same thing. And and all of a sudden, people started looking at so many people tell me, since the election, I say so many people. There were a lot who said, look, I'm gonna give you a chance. I want you all to work together. I didn't vote for you because I didn't want to lose the seat. And that's what I think we have to overcome in America, that we that we get away where that tribal party means more than common decency, and that allegations that were

in very credible. I would have haken as a prosecutor that case any day of the week, and and and even on Sundays and and just gone to a grand jury and a court with it and convicted him. But it became very tribal. When that happened, we just had to stay in our lane and talk about issues. What you said was was just really extraordinary. I mean, you're saying that we've become so tribal that even though there's overwhelming evidence that your opponent was and is a pedophile,

it actually helped him and hurt you. Yes, yeah, it drove up. Now, did I get more votes? Didn't drive up some votes for US, Absolutely, but I think it made the election more tribal and more people came out. The more people that came out, it was going to be more difficult for us UH to to win the election. We had an energy of a base out there, and

we were getting more and more people. But when it started becoming like that and and that was the focus, whether it was true or not true, that those were all issues, and a lot of folks in Alabama you know it, it really didn't help. When Republican senators that they thought they were helping me, I think some of them when they were You're saying, well, we're gonna kick him out of office if he comes up here, well then there it gave some people a chance to think, Okay,

we'll get a do over. Let's go ahead and vote from more because I don't want I don't want a Democrat, and we'll get a do over because surely they're not gonna seat him. Now. That is opposed to others like Senator Shelby, who I thought was very very statesmanlike, who said, look, I'm going to write in I cannot vote for this man, and I'm going to write somebody. And he never said we're gonna expel him or do anything like that. That

was afi It certainly was. It was. And now I've known Senator Shelby a long time when when he was a Democrat, and I've known him since he was a state senator in Tuscaloosa and I was a young Alabama student there, so we go way back. But it was a profile's encourage moment for let's talk about this tribalism that you describe, Senator that very much, sir fist. During your campaign, I did a six hour documentary series for

National Geographic. Did I mention? I did a six hours I'm just learning about it, but a one was on white working class anxiety. That was this on the sixth hour documentary that you've done on white working class anxiety in this country. And I'm curious if if you have an explanation why we have become so tribalistic and is there anything that can be done about Yeah, I think there's a lot that can be done about it. Number

one is that people. I think if we've become tribalistic, a lot what cause of social issues and they're deeply held cultural beliefs and on those social issues, and you're not going to change a lot of people own those issues. But what I think folks need to do more is trying to focus on things we have in common and they are even even on those issues, you can find some common ground on things. But I think, you know, for a lot to people, it's just not a question

of talking to people. I hear political people all the time saying, well, we we lost touch because we didn't talk to this group or that group. Now that's not really yet. You didn't listen to them and and you didn't hear their concerns and you didn't understand. And that's what I think. One of the things that we did we talked about the kitchen table issues, and that's what really I think binds people in America right now, like

like their health care. Everybody wants to be you know, have good health care for themselves and for their families. I think wages and income. They see this incredible wage gap that we've got right now and they don't quite understand that, and they want to know how they can have that better life. I think education for their children

is a driver as well. Um, And we've let politicians so talk about those cultural issues that divide us that they've dominated the political scene, at least in the South. I can imagine, by the way, if Hillary Clinton we're sitting here right now, she would say, well, I talked about health care and education, jobs every damn day of that campaign. Why did it work for you? And it didn't work for me? Well, because she did. I don't think that they listened as much of people coming back

to them. And at the end of the day, there was also this incredible focus on the foibles of Donald Trump. It was a personal attack on Donald Trump day in and day out. I didn't do that with Roy Moore. It would have been real easy for me to do that, but I stayed on my message of issues. There were other people attacking him. I didn't have to do that, you know. But in fairness. I mean, Hillary Clinton was being attacked relentlessly by Donald Trump. I get that. I

get that, but I think you lose the messages. And so when you lose the messages among that political noise like that on the personal attacks, then it gives people they really get lost in what they're voting for, and they're just going to vote for the personality sometimes. And that's just a very simplistic way of looking at. All I can tell you is that I wanted to stay very focused. You only heard me really one time. You have a speech, uh in which I really put what

I hope to be a stake in his heart. But I really focused on issues, and I think that's I think that's what public servants should be doing. You're reading White Working Class by Joan Williams, which really was my bible for this hour, and she talks a lot about cultural condescension and cultural cluelessness. There seems to be a basic lack of respect. I think, you know, and let's be honest, the leader of this country is largely responsible for the porsening of our discourse. Question. Uh So it

goes both ways. But there's also a lot of coastal elite snobbery towards people who really provide the backbone of this country in many ways. And and that's my people. That's where I grew up in the steel mills of Fairfield and then the you know family in the in the in dirt poor areas of Alabama and they absolute he feel that way. And by the way, I haven't even started that one yet. It's so good. Yeah, and it's a very quick read. My wife gave you. The

one I'm doing now is an interesting book. No, it's it's it's called Harry and Arthur about Harry Truman and Arthur Vanderberg, Republican senator and the Democratic president, and how they put their politics aside in order to rebuild the world after War two with the Martial Plan, and how the United States of America became not only the economic and global leader of the world, but the moral leader of the world. And we're seeing a slide of that a good bit right now. I'm going to great book.

So speaking of a foreign policy Vandenburg and Truman, I mean, I know you're knew the Senate, but we didn't want to ask you about Syria as well the US as well as the British and the French conducted this very limited one night operation that hit three targets related to chemical weapons. But we basically accepted the status quo that Aside is leading the country so long as he kills people with guns and torture rather than chemicals. Yeah, exactly. So do you think there's still a role for us

to push to get a side out. Do you think we should get more involved somehow, or do you think we should basically accept the way it is? You know, I think that what's obviously a troubling thing is that I'm not sure there's been a real good, serious strategy for a long time. Do you I think I'm not sure.

His strategy was very as good. Things were moving in ways, and you saw things happen in Libya and other places, and it was an interesting changing world that we saw in a matter of a few years, and and all of a sudden, I sade, I think if you saw what happened, it would appear that Asad was going to be just the next one to fall, And it didn't happen, and so by that I think it took people a

little bit by surprise, and they he became entrenched. Um I supported those strikes on the chemical weapons because it is a problem. I don't know where the future is at this point. I think that, uh, if the President is going to do anything additional, uh, it's going to appear that he is trying to regieme change. And I think that that's gonna have to involve Congress. I think there's a there's only so far that he can go with that, and I think it's gonna be a tough situation.

We've got, you know, you know, we're we're in a kind of a proxy war with the Soviet Union right now, and uh, yeah, yeah whatever. I'm still you know, I'm still living in those old days and to me, to me, they're almost one and the same, Okay. I mean when you really look at what happened with the Soviet Union and you look at what Putin is doing right now, you know, they're just it's just two p's in the pot.

It's that we say in the South. Um. So, I think that that's gonna be a real challenge for America in the in the coming years. Are you gonna support my pump has nomination here today? I haven't completely made

up my mind. I Uh, I have got some grave concerns about some things that he's said and done in the past, which well, I think for the gay community, for the Muslim community, it gives the those immunities a real sense of that they would have a Secretary of State that is not looking out for their best interest. On the other hand, I think his role as CIA director,

there's not been anything that would disqualify. I met with him the other day, Uh did oh, yeah, absolutely, well, he had a I'd like to kind of keep that a little bit more private, but he was consistent with his public testimony. He made very once. I think, uh, you have to take somebody at their word to some extent, his comments to me were reassuring about that that doesn't

always carry the ball, but they were certainly reassuring. And I think, you know, sometimes when you say things in a political sense and you change jobs, it makes a difference,

you know, for trails they do. It's it's crazy, but you know, I was a prosecutor, and then I was a defense lawyer, and then I was a prosecutor again, and that was so people would say the same thing about me, the things I said about the government when I was defending somebody, and then all of a sudden I became the government, so I put a lot of things in a big context. And we'll see. I'm working with the staff and we're trying to do a little bit, uh, And I'll have my mind made up in the next

probably twenty four hours or so, if not less. But it's a it's a tough that's that's probably the toughest vote I'll take. Will you call us and let us know so we can update this podcast, of course, will Thursday. Um, I know we're almost out of time, but I have to ask you about this ground swell of opposition we've seen from primarily young people about gun violence in this country. Senator, I know you're a staunch proponent of the Second Amendment.

You're yourself you're a hunter, um, but I'm curious if you think anything at all can be done at the federal level to decrease gun violence, and what do you think would be the most effective way to do that. Well. I think there can be some things, but there's a difference when can something be done and will it be done? I think the will it be done is a lot harder question because of the obvious political I think there's a lot of things that can be done. In fact,

I may gave my maiden speech on gun violence. Um, you want to raise the age. I wanted to raise the age twenty one. I want to do something about universal background checks? What about semi automatic weapons? What about are fifteen? I mean you're a hunter. Is any hunter worth his or her salt going to use the semi automatic weapon? No? Yes, yes? Really? Oh absolutely. The first dear rifle I bought. See. One of the problems, Katie

is people don't really understand the terminology. The first dear huh rifle I brought was a browning Um Safari three o eight. It has five rounds. It's a semi automatic fired and it and it comes out. I've got a nice scope on it. Great dear rifle. That's different than in Les Okay. That's that's different. But people have to also understand that in this day and age, there's a culture in the South in a lot of places that it's not just a question of hunting. People like to

take and shoot. They go to target practice. I do that with my son. I don't Every time I shoot a gun is not at a deer or a turkey or a bird. It is I sometimes will go and we'll just shoot at a paper target. And I don't think that right now there is any appetite. And I think about talking about banning a R fifteens is a

nonstarter and it causes people to go into corners. And so what I did in my maiden speech, which I thought was something that was important for a son of the South, to start talking about a gun owner and somebody that shoots guns regularly and has a safe that's got a lot of them in there, to talk about things that I think Kennan should be done. Raising the age. You know it's twenty one for pistols anyway, why not do that for semi automatic weapons? And that it seems

insane to me. It's I don't know the answer why there's one and not the other. I think that you can do universal background checks, makes some exceptions uh to that that I think would be legitimate, but I think can do those. I think that there's I want to

close the boyfriend loophole. Uh. Those are things that and we took some steps with trying to fix the next system to make it better and and when and a big step was getting away with the Dicky Amendment that would allow the system is the background checks, exact records. But we also got rid of the the amendment that will now allow the CDC to do some research on gun violence, which is insane by the way, they cannot study it as a public health epidemical issue and because

of Congress and now we've removed that. Now it hadn't been funded to do that, but at least we've removed that. And Katie, that was a big deal. That was fault so bad, and that was a big step I think for Second Amendment guys to to step up and do so. I'm hopeful that down the road that we continue to have this And that's what I keep wanting to people

to talk about as gun violence, not gun control. Let's talk about gun violence and suicides, uh, and accidents and homicides and the things that we can do to stop the number of deaths that result from a trigger being old on a weapon. So this week President Trump invited President Macron of France to the United States for a state dinner and bringing with tradition, he invited no Democratic members of Congress and no journalists to the dinner. Do

you think that was a mistake? Absolutely? How can you how can you talk How can you stand in front of all the members of Congress at the State of the Union and talking about working together and finding common ground if you don't adhere to those traditions. I think it was a huge mistake on his part. Okay, another

thing that's in the news. The chair of your party filed a lawsuit against the Russian government Wiki Weeks and the Trump campaign for conspiring to hurt Hillary Clinton by hacking the Democratic Party and disseminating Stone emails, Stone material. What's your reaction to that. Do you think the lawsuits the right thing to do? Don't think the lawsuit was the right thing to do. I haven't taught to Tom Perez since since he filed it. I don't think it's

the right thing to do. I think he keeps it stirred up, and there's plenty of things out there right now that are working its way through that. Sooner or later, the public is going to know. Why do you think he did it? I don't know the answer to that. He you know, what I read was to try to preserve some right, but I'm not I'm not exactly sure. It's just not something that I felt like would be appropriate to do. There's a lot going on right now

that it's gonna come out one way. I know, it's basically the statute of limitations is going to run and they need to file the lawsuit now or they're gonna lose their opportunity. And that they were, you know, hurt by this conspiracy in sixteen and also to prevent similar meddling in eighteen, they needed to kind of lay down

a market. Well, that's where Congress ought to be acting, Okay, that that that's not up to a civil lawsuit to do that, and that lawsuit won't wind its way through the courts in time to have any effect on I think that's up to Congress, and people in both houses are now looking at the Russian meddling. I don't think the administration has done enough, but they are beginning to

come around and start doing things now. And it is probably one of the hottest topics up on the Hill today because it is a very very serious problem that is going to continue unless we take some serious action. As someone who's spent his entire career dealing with lawyer years and with law enforcement and the FBI, what do you think of James Comey, Well, I have I have a lot of respect for James Comey. I did. I think he made some some mistakes. I'm not uh one

of those Democrats who you know his flip flopped. I thought it was a mistake when he released the letter that he did eleven days before the election. Uh, I would have I would have reopened the investigation and just going about my work. Uh. You you don't try to do something. Would not have announced it. No, absolutely not. You dead. That's just not something that you do eleven days before a very high before any election, because whether it would or would not, the chances are it was

going to affect the election. Whether it would have changed the outcome was not the determining uh factor. It should not have been released, and my view should not have been released. I was not persuaded by his public comments or his book about why he did it. Was interesting to me. You know, he kept saying that the FBI is above politics, and yet he did concede that he was probably influenced by his suspicion that Hillary Clinton would

be elected. It was going to be elected, and it would taint not only her presidency, which is fair, but also taint the FBI and him for withholding it and that was just it just should have you just let the chips fall with a gonna fall, So that should not have been done. Having said that, though, I think that all he went through with the president that no,

no FBI director should have gone through. You should not be demanded to take a loyalty test because the director of the FBI works for the people and for the Justice Department, not for an individual who happened to assume the presidency. So with things that occurred afterwards, I think he has Uh done exactly of the right things. I mean in that respect, I have a lot of respectful people make mistakes, and that happens. But I think he got uh. I don't think it was a good, good thing.

What happened to him and the way it happened. And do you think when all of a sudden done that Hillary's biggest flaw was that the campaign became too personal and she attacked Trump too much. Well, I think she I think that, And I also think she took for granted a lot of votes in Ohio and Michigan and Wisconsin and Pennsylvania and some of those places, and she started focusing Uh, he started reading too many of the headlines that I'm gonna win. And so she thought, well,

let's just really go to Arizona. Let's go to these other places, because if I can win there, it'll be a big win. Um. By the time that election came on that Tuesday, I was not I from my standpoint, I was beginning. Now, my wife will tell you I'm always the pessimist when it comes to my juries, being out and everything else. But I told the Downtown Democratic Club in Birmingham on the Friday before the election that they should not be celebrating that there was something out

there in America that that Donald Trump was tapping. And it was a frustration that and people wanted to be heard, that they didn't feel like that they're being heard, and and I was very worried about that over the sense of the weekend, and I just felt like the campaign had not paid enough attention the folks that might make a difference. On the day of the election, I was texting with some people very high in the in the campaign, uh, and they told me it was gonna be tight. And

I looked at my wife. I said, this is not gonna happen. Just be ready, It's not gonna happen. And and it was. It was. It was a pretty depressing night for us. But at the same time, it also from from our standpoint, my wife and I standpoint, Louis and I, it really kind of spurred us on for this race and what we did, because you know, elections matter,

and elections have consequences. And as you saw the Women's March and you saw things build, you know, it was we've everybody felt like it's time to get back to the decency, the honorable thing to do, to give people a voice. Uh that in Alabama had not had a voice before, or at least in a long time. I didn't think. And so there was, you know, their silver linings to everything. And I think that now we're gonna see people energized. As as polarized as the country is,

I think people are energized to make a difference. Do you think the Democrats are going to take the House in the Senate in two thousand eighteen. I have no idea, no idea. All right, when let's jump ahead to and your friend Joe Biden. You guys are big buddies. Now now, Katie, you know I'm not supposed to talk. I'm here in my Senate office building, so let's don't let's just don't talk about politics. Let's talk about policy, and let's talk about energizing people in America that come out and do

the right things in the electoral project. You got to know Joe Biden because you worked with him in what Well, Yeah, I met Joe when I was in law school actually in the seventies, and we just stayed friends, and I'm very, very fond to him. I think he is one of this country's greatest leaders. He can talk to people as well, and I think that that's a very important thing. He's from Scranton, from Scranton, Pennsylvania, and he talks to folks,

and he talked to but to working cast folks. And when he quotes his dad, who you know, had had a working class guy, um, people respond to that. I think Joe and and there's maybe and there's others too that have that ability. But I think that that's the kind of thing we need back in the Senate, in

the House and the presidency. Um. In conclusion, your term wraps up at the end of or actually the beginning of the first the first turner, Well, let me ask this, let me ask this a different way as a Senator, what do you hope to accomplish in this term? Well, what do you hope to be able to deliver for the people of Alabama. I'm hoping I can deliver a number of things. I'm hoping I can I can help save our community hospitals. We're losing them, our rural hospitals

left and right. I'm hoping I can help with a health care system that will deliver healthcare throughout the state. I'm hoping I can work with some of the poorer areas in the state where we have some serious sanitation issue us. I'm hoping that I continue to help attract business and industry to the state of Alabama. You know, working with Senator Shelby and others, We've got a growing economy in Alabama and Mobile and in Montgomery and Birmingham

and Huntsville. But I want to grow that economy in the rural areas as well. So I'm hoping that I can convince people that, you know, the federal government is not a bad thing. For every dollar that we send up, we got a couple of bucks back, and they're good programs there. It's Medicaid, it's Medicare. I want to make sure that I save that for my folks because it's so important. We have a very unhealthy state. We have a poor state. I'd like to see the income go up.

I'd like to help with a workforce development that's gonna help people in the twenty one century, that that if you don't go to college, you don't get a four year degree, you can go to a community college and you can get a trade and you can get a job at the new Toyota plant and makes fifty to a hundred thousand dollars a year and help build that middle class back that is shrinking mightily. I think Congress has an opportunity to to do a lot of things

like that. We've got to save those programs that are not just safety nets, but that are vital to so many people in my state, and also do those kind of things around our defense system to protect the country. That's also good for Alabama's economy. I mean, I didn't vote to shut the government down. I was one of the few Democrats who didn't do that because a shutdown and government would have hurt the state of Alabama's economy

a lot. We have too many we have a lot of government jobs that are dependent on on that coming in. So those are the kind of things that I hope that I can accomplish or at least start the process of accomplishing. UH. For the country. Senator. You know, people I think are so disillusion and so disheartened. And is there anything you, the young senator, relatively young senator from Alabama, that you can do to restore people's faith in institution

like the federal government. Well, you know, look, I'm not a young senator. I'm a new senator, but I'm not a young I am the junior senator. UM. But I'm gonna, I'm gonna. You know, I think my role in in part is to continue to talk to people and and listen to people, and to talk about those institutions and

the rule of law. I think I bring an interesting perspective having done those old clan cases, having done those things, having been in the Justice Department and then out and then back in and then back out, and now and my role as a U S Senator, UM, I want people to talk about the rule of law and respect the rule of law, and I want people to respect the institutions of government and to make sure that we can always have we have disagreements or how we get

to a certain place, but we can also find that common ground that we can get to that place and everybody will be satisfied. I think that's a role that I can can do. I think our election, in part sent that message. And I've had so many people tell me I want you guys to work together. Send this message, not just not just to Chuck Schumer and the Democratic Party, send it over to McConnell as well. You guys need

to work together. And I've told people it's one thing to talk about reaching across the aisle, which is what I'm trying to do consistently and whatever I do, um, but in order to move forward, you've got to have somebody who's willing to accept that reach and work with you and not just try to yank you across the other side. It will be tough with the elections coming up, but I think that that's my role to say, Look, we can be decent to each other, we can care

about each other. We can make sure that everyone has the kind of justice that those four little girls got uh with those convictions. We can do that for for DOCCA, we can do that for workers, we can do that for business leaders. None of those are inconsistent. They are not inconsistent with the American dream. And if we can do that then I think will be in in really good. But it's it's not going to be easy to get

there with the way things are now. See, you were so inspiring and then you kind of were a debbut down at it. Yes, yes, yes, that's the old pessimist sneak in there. That's right. It's the it's the challenges and we we you've got to at the end of the day though, it's the glass half full, and that's way I'll do it up here. Thank you, Thank you so much. Great to be here in your office as well, and congratulations, Thank you. I appreciate thanks so much. Guys.

Thank you very much to Senator Doug Jones and his entire staff for hosting us this week in Washington, d C. Also thank you to our traveling pod squad. That's our producer Gianna Palmer and our audio engineer Jared O'Connell, who was very sweet and helped carrying my bag, which was really overstuffed and super heavy. Thank you, Jerry. I can

attest to that anyway. Nora Richie is our assistant producer Beth de Mos, Emily Beina, and Alice breast Nick make Magic Happen over at Katie Curic Media, and Mark Phillips wrote our theme music. Bryan and I are the show's executive producers. You can find me on social media under Katie Curict, Brian on a plane snooping at what podcasts you may be downloading. I tweet from the handle at Goldsmith b and remember to call in with your tales of tech addiction at nine to nine to four four

six three seven. You can also email us as always at comments at kurk podcast dot com. And while you've got your typing fingers warmed up, we'd love it if you would leave us a review over at Apple Podcasts, and please subscribe to the show too and tell your friends. By all means, thanks so much for listening, and we'll be back here next week