Julia Louis-Dreyfus: Women in the White House

it was a really meaningful moment. This was ten years before you were born. It was I'm sorry to report I'm going to reach across this desk and slap you. Yeah, it wouldn't be the first time anyway. But yeah, that's equal rights, isn't it. But you know, I think that that song was so important to me in my formative years. That and the Mary Tyler Moore Show, because let's face it, Brian, she could take a nothing day and suddenly make it

all seem worthwhile. Why are we talking about all of this? Well, at the convention in Philadelphia, we saw the first female nominee for President of the United States in history, and no matter what your politics are. That's a pretty big deal. So we wanted to get a take on what this means, how people feel about it. We went out to Times Square to talk to women and men, boys and girls about the prospect of the first female president, female president. Do you want to talk to me? So? And here's

some of the things they had to say. Where are you from New York? Oh? You were, Well, how do you feel about potentially having a female president? It's everything, it's everything that we need. Doesn't mean anything to you, but I mean it's kind of surprising. Why because like if it's like the first girl, I mean, it's always a new thing. So how old are you? Okay, So, how do you think you'll feel if, in fact Hillary Clinton's elected and you watch her being inaugurated? Proud? Kind

of like we could all do it too. They give you one day I could be president. Um. I think it's more significant of the person and the character rather than the person's gender. Um. When I'm looking at voting for somebody, I'm not looking at sex, race, religion, anything, looking at what they stand for and what they're doing. And so, how do you feel about you? Can you tell me who you're voting for UM, I'm winning much more towards Trump than than through for Hillary. How do

you feel about it, I don't think. I don't really it's a matter. I think it's a your opportunity. Personally, I feel like how the female president will probably change the standards of you know, I don't know. I feel like it's kind of an equal in the world of men and women. We get paid less, men get paid more. So if Hillary does become president, maybe those rules were changed when everyone is kind of equal. It's not. As she's a good president, then it would be great. So

her ability matters more to you than her gender. Half in half, we're excited to have the fictional feminist heroin Julia Louis dryfe is akj or anti heroin Selina Meyer, who is currently running the country, at least on HBO. Like so many Americans, I have a massive girl crush on Julia Louis dreyfuss. I first met her as Elaine on Seinfeld and I did a story on the final

episode of Seinfeld, so I went to the set. We had so much fun, and in fact, she taught me some of her moves on the dance floor, which is my favorite Seinfeld episode explained so much about you on the dance floor. Hey wait a second, I'm a really good dancer. I have to work hard to look like a bad dancer. Actually, Brian, come on, but we I

just I don't know. We just hit it off. And of course I'm so thrilled for her success on V because I think the show is brilliant and she is brilliant in it, and she was nice enough to let us give her a call at her house in l A. Hi, Julia, Louis Dreyfus, Hi, Katie Kurt. It's very exciting to have you joined our podcast. And by the way, it's because we're in my house. It's possible things are gonna happen

while we're talking. That's okay. Like my teenager is still sleep upstairs, and so he may come down and ask for breakfast. Okay, this is a good time to teach him how to boil an egg exactly. This is Brian Goldsmith, who's a huge fan of yours I am and a huge fan of the show. Thank you, thank you, thank you. So welcome to our little podcast. Well, thanks for having

me on your little podcasts. You listen to podcasts, I do. Yeah, I I think they're amazing actually, and I listened to them when I have a long drive or on a plane. What's your favorite podcast? Well, I'm a big Iro Glass and uh, this American Life fan. That's sort of what I usually go to. And then the like the Moth Series and stuff like that. Yeah, well there's so many. I don't know. You know, there's so much material out

there that's actually really worthy. I don't know how people ingest all the incoming good quality stuff, right, no kidding, I mean between podcasts and all the good television that's out there on on cave boy, I don't know. I guess we should never get out of bed. I think you're right. That's how I feel sometime, honestly. But talking

about good television, we have to talk about Viev. I mean, listen, it is so hilarious, Julia, and I know the creator left, and you were very insistent that you wanted to keep the show going. I feel like it's better than ever. Thanks. That's so nice of you to say, And apparently you're extremely involved in every bit of it, the writing, and when you shoot a scene, you say, why don't we do it this way or that way? In other words,

you're a control freak in the best possible way. Yes, I think that's why you and I like each other. I think you're right, But I mean, obviously I think you're having still having a fantastic time. And the C word, I think was one of my favorite episodes ever. Oh really, Oh you know what my husband directed that? I know he did, which made me like it even more. Isn't that funny that that's the episode he directed? Well, I think everybody was talking about it and people just loved

it so much. And when you look ahead, I mean, have have you started shooting for next season? We have started writing for next season, but not shooting yet. And so where do you you know, how do you figure out where going to take the show? Because I think a lot of people worried when she became president it was going to lose its edge because so much of the comedy was based on her being a second banana,

and yet it got funnier and funnier. And and have can you give us, without a spoiler alert, any indication of how the show is going to move forward? Well? Yeah, I can, in in broad terms, I mean I can say that Selina Meyer is a political animal, I mean fundamentally in her core and so that's not going anywhere. And um, and she was present for a very short period of time, and you can even make the argument that she wasn't even quite elected, you know, and so um,

it's very important to her. A top priority for her is to remain relevant. Relevancy is the name of the game. So um, you know, you haven't seen the last of her, let's just put it that way. And and I think that's you know, this woman is always trying to get uphill and uh, and that will remain in place because even when she was president, she was campaigning to try to stay president, and in fact campaigning to get elected president because she wasn't. She sort of fell into it

the first go round. You know, it's remarkable to me how many people I know in politics who say that VEEP is actually the most accurate depiction of what real life in elected office is actually like, not House of Cards, not the West Wing. But Veep does that thrill you or scare you or some combination of the two. I guess it's a sort of a cocktail of the two, but more thrilled me than anything else, because I feel

as if we've worked very hard. I mean, we've worked really hard to keep to make a show funny first and foremost, but we've also worked really hard to keep it plausible. So so much of the behavior and storylines goes through sort of a sieve in which we say, Okay, is this plausible? Would this happen? Can this happen? Is this too broad? Is it just the right of small? Um?

You know? And so I I'm I'm thrilled at that, and I do believe you know, I know it may seem as if I'm very cynical about politics and so on, it actually has, in a weird way, kind of um made me have even more respect for those people in politics who I think have remained true to their core and who haven't sort of an an elevated sense of of and correctly so, of of doing the right thing and and and sort of following an idea as opposed to just um, a single person or an ego and

and and those people exist and so um, and I've had the good fortune to run into them. And of course there are plenty of people in politics who don't fall into that category, but I think there are plenty who do. So I'm not. I'm not undone by the the reality of the show. You have real political or form of political prose who contribute to the show. You have also great journalists like Frank Rich who you know, had a great proximity to power and wrote about it

through the years. Um. I can't help but wonder how the juxtaposition of the Trump campaign and the craziest campaign season. I think that you and I and most people can remember how that is kind of playing out in terms of how VEEP is developing as well. Can you talk about that a little bit, Julia, Yeah, Well, I'll tell

you something. What's going on in the Trump campaign. I am telling you if you were to take the actual his language, his his the sentences that he speaks and put them down on paper, or there's certain reality the realities that occurred at the Republican Convention, I e. Uh, Milania Trump plagiarizing the speech um, either wittingly or unwittingly whatever. But it's a fact. Uh, it's too broad for our show.

Real life is crazier than it's too big. I'm telling you, if they had said that, I would have said, no, guys, we're not going to do this. Is this is ah, this is broad. This is like a cartoon when you come up with stuff like that slogan continuity with change, which is sort of a parody of a political consult of a slogan, And it turns out the Prime Minister of Australia basically copied it. His was continuity and change. Yeah, so he changed the uh what is that conjunction or whatever?

And then he got a lot of shipped for it, and then I guess he made it. He made he changed it again. But isn't that remarkable? That's one of my favorite UM moments, Julia. I mean, what do you think of this whole Trump campaign when you see it just as an American citizen? And who on the show is most like Donald Trump? You think, um on the show?

I guess the person who's the most like Donald Trump on our show is Jonah Ryan, only because played by the wonderful Tim Simmons, only because he's completely um ill suited for the job of congressman and um and unfit is the word of choice these days, and and potentially mentally unstable all in one. So I would say that Jonah Ryan is as close as we can get to Trump. But he certainly wasn't fashioned after Trump? Are you being inspired by some of the things you're watching on the

campaign trail? And I don't mean inspired as a person, I mean inspired as a writer and someone in the field of comedy. Well, I mean yes and no. I mean the show obviously isn't a parody. And we've created this alternate universe on our show so that parties aren't aren't defined. Uh. And that's really been an advantage, particularly nowadays, when everything is so seemingly polarized. Um, I think it gives us the opportunity to have sort of everybody can

join in on the fun. I mean. The truth is is that when we meet with insiders uh and politicians and so on in d C, no matter what side of the aisle they're on, they think we're making fun of the other side. That's convenient. Yeah, it's very convenient.

So um, I mean, yeah, sure, we're all uh keenly involved and watching, of course as all I would think I would hope most American citizens are, but also as comedy writers and as and given the fact that the show is political, but our goal is not to sort of scoop that stuff up and and and we never have sort of put it directly into a show. Um, although it seems to things seem to sort of parallel a lot in a weird way, almost by coincidence, as

in the continuity uh, continuity with change slogan. Let's talk about your sort of political leans. I know you had your supporting Hillary Clinton. Um, and I'm curious about how you feel she's being portrayed out there in the world, and if you feel that she's being portrayed fairly, because there is you know, I'm sure you've talked a lot about sexes and both professionally, politically, etcetera. And do you think that's entering into the conversation even in a subtle way.

I think it's in the conversation. And we don't even know it. For instance, we're talking about it right now, right and um, we wouldn't be talking about it if it wasn't an issue. Um, there is, there's no avoiding it. You know, it's it's it's an extraordinary achievement that she's a first female candidate for for president dominated Canada, I should say. And and at the same time, she is

being seen through a lens as such. Um. And you know people talk about those pants suits and people talk about, uh, well, look, let's put it this way, a man who is I've said this before, but a man who is decisive and stern, uh is. I would say Garners a certain amount of respect, but I can't say that's the same necessarily for a woman. And I really think that's all you need to know.

And you play the first female president on your show, how do you think about portraying that character You're trying to send a message in any way about now, I'm trying to be funny period, I'm not on a soapbox

on this show. Having said that, though we're making fun of this reality, I mean, there has been more than more than one occasion in which uh A Meyer has said things like I don't want to identify myself as a woman because people don't like women, and as a woman, you know that, and I know that we don't like women. So I mean, I'm completely botching what the line was, but we've said a variation on that line multiple times throughout the seasons, and the word lady balls has used

many times on the show. Yeah, lady balls for sure. I was asking Brian about, gee, does the show really kind of take on sexism? Uh, in a in a in a in a significant way, and we were scratching our heads and saying, not so much. It seems to be somewhat gender neutral in terms of the comedy that's part and parcel of the show. Would you agree with that except for those some exceptions, I think we do take it on. But I think we take it on.

It's it's um, it's between the lines, um, And I think the very concept of the show takes it on. Now we should say there are a lot of female conservatives who are not supporting Hillary, having nothing to do with sexism, but because they fundamentally disagree with her. Oh listen, I'm not even suggesting that people aren't supporting her only because she's a woman. For those who aren't supporting her, I'm not suggesting that. I'm just saying that people, Um,

it's a different kind of judgment period, That's what I think. Right. In fact, she said as much talked about sort of Hillary standards, right, and think she's been very open about that. And and do you feel like that exists obviously for women in Hollywood still, there's been so much discussion in

recent years about the dearth of great roles. You did a very funny skit with Tina Fey and Patricia Arquette and Amy Schumer comes up as your last effable Day, And and I think that was also about agents not allowed to swear on your podcast. Well, I don't know. You did say it the other day, and that got a lot of attention on social media. It did, did it? Really? So if I correct you and say it's called the Last fuckuble Day, maybe it'll get more bucket. Anyway, what

was the question? The question was about the video? Oh, yes, yeah, And I was just gonna say, um, is it still very frustrating to be a woman in Hollywood? Sure? I know, is that's a stupid question. I know that's it sounds stupid. But I feel like things are starting to change a little bit, or are they not. I don't know, It really depends. I mean, no, no, I mean I guess they are, just because we're sort of talking about it.

And and I think there's certainly been um more movement in the world of television and cable, movement in the right direction for more gender equality and also versification. I would say, but um, certainly not in film. I don't think. I don't think that's the case. In film, and it's definitely harder to age in in show business as a woman than it is for a man. But I would say that there's a there's plenty, plenty room for improvement. Yeah, how can we change that? You know, as somebody who's

about to turn sixty? Uh, that would be me, not you. I think about it. Will it ever change? Because it seems to me the preferred age of actors or newscasters even or is in their thirties and forties, right, So how do you change that? By continuing to work and setting an example, you know, and uh and having some ladyballs because um, as much as as as you can

or feels appropriate. I mean, I executive produce my show and I uh call a lot of the shots and um, but that hasn't always been the case, and I'm glad it is now. And I try to hire as many capable women as as we can and and uh, but it's not easy there. I mean, it took a long time for me to get into this position, and uh, I've had to work hard to get to this moment. But maybe I'm happy to be here. I was going to say maybe because of you, though it will be

easier for the women who are coming after you. And yeah, I feel that for me too. Yeah, you know that I had to put up with so much BS when I anchored the CBS Evening News that I feel like the women behind me don't have to deal with quite as much. I mean, there's still a certain amount of it that they're going to have to tolerate, but it just sort of gets easier. The less novel it is, the easier it becomes. Yeah, I think that's exactly right, the less novel. And uh, you know, assuming that Hillary

gets elected. You know, think if you're a little kid right now, think if you're ten or twelve years old and the first president in your memories that is an African American man, and the next president is is a a female. I mean, I think how that changes your point of view on life generally. Um, I think it's enormous. We should talk about for a second your own relationship with Hillary Clinton, because she sent you a note in

early Can you tell that story? I can. Well. Um, it turns out that when we we shot Veep in Baltimore, Maryland for the first four years, and um, someone who was in our makeup department also did the makeup for Hillary Clinton. And this was back when she was Secretary State and so uh for Christmas. Uh, the hair make folks who are all good friends of mine gave to me a buck slip that's a secretary stayed on it and it's from Hillary Clinton and hold on him in

my office. I'm gonna get it. And it says, uh, Julia, you're a great VEEP. Hope you can get gun control, immigration reform, and job creation this season. All the best Hillary Rodham Clinton. And this was in January of two thirteen, so you can imagine how thrilled I was to get this was such just amazing and you thought, wow, this show is really breaking through, Yes, exactly, And so I

had it framed and loved it. And then her emails came out and uh, and a bunch of them, you know, we're put out there for public record or whatever the word is. And somebody tweeted to me, did you see this, which I had not because I really not interested in really for emails and uh, and the email is from Hillary to somebody who worked for her, saying, a friend wants me to sign something for Julia. Lewis drce Dryfe is for VEEP any ideas Lewis by the way, it is spelled l e w. I s that's not how

I spelled my last name. So she's a huge fan and and her guy wrote back, let me brainstorm on this one, do some research. I confess I haven't seen the show, so it was just perfect. And so I printed this up and then I reframed this so that the buck slip and the email are next to each other, because it's it's just quintessentially, it's everything about this I love to be honest with you, and it's and and it's nothing against Hillary at all, but it does speak to, frankly,

what our show Veep is very much about. And uh so it's but I was thrilled to be I mean, to have this connection and then to have this buck slip from her. It's just crazy, isn't it? When it's so funny when you say what our show is really about? What would you say your show is really about? It's obviously about not not about nothing. It's about Is it about sort of the difference between appearances and what people

what's really going on behind the scenes. Yeah, I guess it's about the real huge human behavior in politics as opposed to the lofty idea of human behavior in politics. And Uh, it's what's behind the curtain. That's what it's about. Well, one small thing that the show accomplishes is it is it exposes the culture of the body man in Washington, which I think a lot of people not in politics

didn't know about. Um. The Gary character is kind of the body man to the to the tenth our Um, can you sort of describe for people who haven't seen the show what that person does. Well, bodyman is a real position. It's a guy or a woman who travels to the president and sort of attends to the president every moment, so knows the president's schedule or vice president schedule, knows where what they need when they want their snack,

what if they if what kind of snack they would want. Uh, they have Kleenex, they have anything is in a bag that they carry with them, throat lozenges, throat loenges, Purell, Taan, Pax, whatever you need, they've got it and it's in a bag. And it's a very very uh I'm going to say intimate position. Uh. Doug Band was body man to Clinton for many years and rose rose up to to run the Clinton foundation. At first glance, I guess you could say seemingly me ne old job, but in fact it's

it's kind of just the opposite. And Tony Hale plays my body man on Veep and we have so much fun together. You have no idea. He's a great, Katie. If you manhim, I have. He is so funny. He's kind of he is that guy. He is the great And it's funny because we're very close and in a strange way, uh like, when we're working together, he's sort of that same guy to me in a weird way.

I mean, not that he follows me around with the bags, but there was exactly the levivan, but there's sort of an intimacy there that is comfortable in the house to say it. Well, you have such an incredible group of people on that show, I mean every last one of them. It is such a true ensemble. And the people behind the scenes, as Katie mentioned earlier, are political pros who who have been in these positions. Do they kind of go through this script writing process with you and say, well,

this could happen, this doesn't happen my past. Yes, we have these We have these political consultants who work on the show from both sides of the aisle, by the way, and uh vet our scripts so um, which is fantastic, And they go through and say exactly that this isn't plausible. You would need more secret service in this scene. Uh, there's no way this person would be allowed to enter

the oval all that kind of stuff. And they've been there, They've lived and breathed it, so they know and a lot and most of the time, I would say, we we follow their advice. Sometimes we don't for the sake of comedy or telling of a story, but for the most part, we really do because it's important to us to make the things seem grounded, you know. I mean, but but with this election season, it seems like the

sky is literally the limit. I mean, you have Scott bo standing in front of a sign that says count at the Republican National Convention, and he's standing in front of the Oh. I mean, that would have been a perfect end van for favorite episode. Yes, it would have been an ideal ending, and we may have to revisit that moment. And then you have Donald Trump being handed a purple heart and saying, I've always wanted one of these. And this is a lot easier. I mean, can't you

see a character in veep doing something like that? To me, that sounds like Selena Meyer, Yeah, exactly, who, by the way, is also unfit to be president. Um, but that would be something she might say. It's incredibly narcissistic and insensitive and and and there's there's zero understanding of the circumstances or the realities of a purple heart, but a lot like Selena Meyer. When Hillary Clinton tried to get on the subway in New York, and that was a brilliant moment. Yeah,

and I'm just that MetroCard to work. Oh, it's just too favy exactly because for those of us who actually do take the subway, there's a there's a particular rhythm with which you have to swipe, and for those people who don't take the subway, it's it's kind of hard

to master on your first go. And it was kind of a modern moment, a modern replay of George Herpert Walker Bush at the grocery store scanner right where he couldn't figure out sort of how much melt cost Wright being marveled at the at the scanner and its ability to detect immediately what sort of food was coming across the table, right, Well, I mean, these guys live in a bubble. Let's not let's not kid ourselves. Do you

think we expect too much of our leaders. We want them to be in touch and down to earth, and we also want them to make these big decisions about Warren Peace. Um, yeah, I'm not sure down to earth matters. I think intelligence and wisdom is really the name of the game. Um, but I don't know how that cells. I was going to say, and this in this day and age, and you watch what happened with Brexit, it seems like anti intellectualism is so profoundly popular now. The

guy who said don't listen to experts, expert don't know anything. Um, it's been very It's been fascinating and also unsettling to watch people dismiss anybody with any level of expertise or experience. Why do you think that's happening? I don't know. But it's not a good sign. I mean, it's happened in other times in world history, and it's it's never a good thing. So UM, striving for UM, I don't know. I don't know what to say. I'm kind of despondent about it. Actually, I think, let me just put it

this way. Let's get out the vote. We got to get out the vote. This is what this election is all about. If we can get out the vote, I think I think Hillary will win and I'm going to um work really really hard to help get that in place. Well, maybe if she wins, she'll be a guest on the next the next veep. What do you think of that? Now, that won't work. I love her to death, but she's not getting into VIEP and neither as Donald or any of these other people. We don't put any real life

people in our shows. U. We we created this alternate universe very very specifically, uh and intentionally so that um so we don't have any of that. We don't even have real journalists or or anything on our show. We've create. We've just completely made another world altogether, which I'm actually quite glad about. Otherwise we'd we'd fall into fall into areas we wouldn't want to go to. I think communically, well, maybe Larry David could be a Bernie Sanders like character. No, Katie, no, okay,

if he's already done that, that's true. Brilliantly, I might add brilliantly. Obviously, I could never work for for a show like yours. I just don't have any new ideas. No, you're coming, You're you're pitching terrible ideas. But I'm my door is open if you want to pitch me other ones, I'll listen. I don't think I'm going to give you the job. I'm glad at least you're honest. Well, thank you for talking with us. This was really It's always great to talk to you. And hopefully I'll see you soon.

Oh I hope so and um, thanks for having me on your show. Good luck with it. I'm psyched that you've got it. Thanks. Nice to meet you, too, Nice to meet you. Brilliant Oh my god, we created a monster, fucking monster if by you guys, talk to you. Okay, but Brian, that was so fun. I don't know about you, but I just love her. You must have a crush on her now too, right, I've always had a crush until you, Louis Drive when I was getting ready to

do this interview. By the way, I think I read that all the twenty five and twenty six year old writers who are working on Seinfeld we're in love with her. So you can understand why, of course, but it's also great because I think that sometimes things happen on television and they get us ready for things happening in real life. Whether we're talking about The Huxtables, pre Bill Cosby, Controversy PS or other shows. You know, I think you've got to see it to be it, and so when you

see it on television, it normalizes it. We're going to talk more about women in politics, but first we're going to take a quick break. But after that we'll talk with a reporter who's gotten some of the closest access possible to Hillary Clinton, New York Magazine writer Rebecca tray Star. But first, a word from our sponsors. Thanks so much to our sponsors. Now let's get back to the show. So we have Rebecca Treyster coming up next, and she's covering the real life version of the story on Veep

of a woman running for president. And when you think about it, Selena Meyer is a little bit Hillary and a little Donald Trump. She probably has the worst qualities of both of them. How lovely and charming, But that's what makes the show so good because she's just on so many levels intensely unlikable, but This ain't cannot be said for Rebecca Tracer. She's so smart, so nice, and

a great reporter for New York Magazine. She spent a lot of time on the campaign trail with Hillary Clinton, and she's written a couple of books about women in politics and women in society. And the latest is called All the Single Ladies, All the Single Ladies, but it's only just one, All the Single Yes, I'm so happy to have you here. Hi, Rebecca, Hi, I'm happy to be here. Before we talk about the great work that you've done. Um, tell me a little bit about yourself,

because you are a generation younger than me. I hate to admit, what do you satan so quickly? Rebecca? I hate that? But your forty one Tell me about how you came to be interested in women's issues and why you really wanted to focus on this in your writing and your journalism. Well, I never imagined that I would focus on it professionally because the era in which I came of age. If you came of age in the Helen Ready era, I came of age in the deep

frozen backlash tundra that followed. Right. So I was born in nineteen seventy five, you were like in Susan Falut I was. I was in Susan Faluti Land, honestly, and so and you know, the year I went to college was the year that Katie roy Fe's book The Morning After, which sort of like you know, attacked the on campus anti date rape movement. Um, it was a very profound anti feminist moment in which I came of age and was a teenager, and it never occurred to me then.

I mean, I did go to the two marches in Washington two when I was a junior in high school around reproductive rights, but somehow that was cut off from any sense of a larger women's movement. There just wasn't a sense of any kind of feminist cohesion. Um. In feminism has never been a cohesive movement. But on the other hand, there just wasn't a women's movement and it never I actually couldn't have imagined that it would come back in the way that it has wonderful ten years.

It is wonderful. I mean, I'm just waiting now for the next wave of backlash. I have to say. It is wonderful. Um want want, Yeah, I know, well, it's true, it's coming. Prepare everybody gird um. Uh. It was really around two thousand three when I took a job writing for Salon, which was an internet publication. UM that I sort of just took on a flyer as I started to write a little bit from a feminist perspective on women's issues, and so there was this sort of um

blossoming of a new generation of feminism. But that didn't happen until I was really in my mid to late twenties. Um, I believe I wrote some pieces about you. I believe you did. You should go back and review those pieces and I can see if I'm actually happy to have you here. I think you would be, I think, um. And but then you know, suddenly women in presidential politics

became a very real reality. So I found myself in the in the during the two thousand and eight election writing about Hillary Clinton, which was the mother load, so to speak, when it came to great material. I'm curious, how is it different the coverage of Hillary Clinton from two thousand and eight to this campaign, because I've been

thinking a lot about that, Rebecca. Because I was anchoring the CBS Evening News, I remember being hyper vigilant and hyper aware of sexism creeping in to the copy, creeping into the pieces, and I was sort of like the the safety patrol for feminists at CBS, at least during

my tenure. And I remember feeling outraged when I don't know if you remember that one video clip where they strung together all of the really obnoxious comments about Hillary Clinton about her blouse or about her pants, or about her weight, or about her laugh or about this, that and the other thing. And I got so incensed, and I remember actually saying to her, why does Sarah Palin have an action figure and you have a nutcracker? She laughed so loud. But do you think it's changed now

with the coverage of this campaign. I don't think it's been entirely ameliorated. I think it's I think it is different. You know, one of the clips that's very famous from two thousand eight is somebody on Fox News saying, she's like your ex wife standing outside of probate court. Um, somebody to take out the garbage, you know, the hectoring wife. It's like we've sharpened. There's a lot less commentary about her clothes. In many ways, I think the media has

sharpened its vocabulary around sexism. I think two was a tremendous learning experience for a lot of people in the media, where they were like, oh right, those are code words for bitch the place you still see it, and people just can't help themselves. And I understand why, and we can talk about it. It's her voice. We do hear Hillary Clinton screaming into a microphone. A. She's not a completely natural order. B. We are simply not used to

hearing this higher register. That's what I just read. I just read a piece about this, saying that she needs to speak less from her lungs and more have more air in her stomach. And I know about this because I had to learn it as well as a broadcaster. But after an election where we have had Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders like kings of yelling that we all are sitting around wondering how we can make Hillary sound

better at a microphone. So there it's both based in a kind of in a reality, which is that we that tone doesn't comfort us, right, and we need to address that. At the same time that it's like, well, men can scream at us or comforter or speak softly and warmly like Barack Obama, or slowly or they can scream and we can still find them reassuring. It was interesting. I think that there's been a reclamation project around her laugh.

I noticed was that Barack Obama, who in Philadelphia last week said was I can't remember what the context was, maybe it was in his speech and he was talking about her laugh, her big laugh, and she's got this wonderful, infectious laugh uh that uh carries quite far. And sometimes it'll be surprising because you'll be in the middle and there's a joy in a earth that I think sometimes

Bubba doesn't always see. Because that's one of the features of Hillary Clinton that actually people talk about all the time is how readily and how loudly she laughs. And that's what's been cast as the cackle that you know,

all of it. But in fact, I think there's been a decided project amongst her friends and colleagues to say, wait, we gotta recast this laugh, branding the branding the laugh as one of the like warm and appealing and you know, one of the one of the appealing things about her, instead of something that that we're going to only hear about his off putting. So but yeah, all of this, I mean, the big issue here is, and this is part of what's radical, and it was radical with the

presidency of Barack Obama and will continue to be. It is trading in all our models for what presidents look like, for what political leadership looks like. And that really does mean a national adjustment of our norms. As you say, what went through your mind, Rebecca when she came out in Philadelphia and there was this moment where it was everyone had to acknowledge this was a new chapter in

American history. And just two days before that she talked about the significance of her candidacy when she was on that big jumbo screen. I'm happy for boys and men because when any barrier falls in America, it clears the way for everyone. In two thousand and eight, it seems that she really wanted to deny her gender in many ways, directly by the advice, was it pen or Dick Morris,

what Mark Penn? Yeah, by a lot of people, I mean, and that wasn't a crazy piece of advice, given that we again have no model for how to run a woman successfully for the presidency and um, but it turned out to be very bad advice for two eight. Of course, we'll never forget that moment in New Hampshire when she showed some emotion in that dinner talking about how challenging it it was for her to run for president or

to be criticized or something. Um, And that was completely against type and against what she was being advised to do. And that was the moment where she seemed to catapult higher up, you know, at a higher standing, right, yes, um. Part of what was happening in that period in New Hampshire was it was the most sexist media coverage that she had gotten. She had lost Iowa and it's like all of these guys, I'm using guys loosely, but it was mostly guys in television media who like had to

be respectful. Ever for all this time, suddenly she was losing, and there was like a dancing on her grave. I mean, if you go back and listen to the way that for example, Chris Matthews, who I like and respect very much, and I you know, I detail this in the book that I wrote about it. A lot of people were just thrilled that Hillary was not only gonna lose, she was gonna lose early, and she was going to be humiliated.

And there was all of this really premature grave dancing in those days between Iowa and New Hampshire and the moment that she cried. I mean, at the time, I was somebody who was not terrifically sympathetic to Hillary Clinton, and I had become so enraged listening to the media get excited about her impending doom, and it's it's like

it had all come into focus for me. It obviously made her more vulnerable, and I think powerful women become more palatable and more appealing when they show us their vulnerabilities. But there's something else about women and crying, which is crying for many of us, is the way that we expressed that we're incredibly piste off. I mean, I think the relationship between showing emotion and anger. And by the way, I should also clarify, she didn't cry. There's not a

single tear that fell from her eyes. She gets stuffy, okay, But but there was something about that. I'm not sure that it was just that we all, like our sisters, weep be right, which was sort of the red of the media. I think it was there were a lot of women in New Hampshire and they're the voters who surprisingly put her over the top. In New Hampshire, and she staged a huge surprise win in New Hampshire like the next day, and I actually think it was a

lot of angry women. I sort of see it that moment as being more about anger than about like a sort of soggy vulnerability. But it is true that the moments in two thousand eight when she successfully talked about her place in history, and that she was able to do so in a way that was compelling and inspiring

to people, were the moments of loss. So the greatest speech she gave in two thousand eight was the concession speech about the glass, about the glass ceiling, and about for me, I mean the parts of it that about shooting fifty women into space, which was an is incredible piece of speech writing the fiftie woman to leave this Earth is orbiting overhead. If we can blast fifty women into space, we will someday launch a woman into the

White House. And although we weren't able, the shadow that highest hardest glass ceiling this time, thanks to you, it's got about eighteen million tracks in it, and the light is shining through like never before, filling us all with the hope and the sure knowledge that the path will be a little easier next time. Um. That was a beautiful speech, and she really marked her place in history. And but that was also a moment where she was

no longer a threat. We do not like women who talk about how great they are, but of course that is the job of a politician running for office. And one of the things that she was free to do in two thousand and eight when she lost was sort of talk about how great she was, or at least how historical she was in a way that wasn't threatening anymore because she wasn't up for the job. But don't we dislike when men talk about how great they are too?

I mean I I get turned off by conceited people in general, right well, and then in a political context they're supposed to be running for office. There of course they're out there telling us that they're better than their opponent. But that's still disconcerting and hard for us to hear, or at least hard for us to feel warmly about when it's a woman. And I think it's especially true by the way. I think it's going to get easier

for her now that she's in the general. That was especially true when the people she's addressing or people who are divided in their loyalties between her and Bernie Sanders in this past race, and between her and Barack Obama in two thousand eight, another person who has good politics. I mean, she you're you're dividing your natural base because everybody sort of has the same ideas about policy and ideology. And you have these two candidates who probably many of

us felt warmly about in one way or another. And it's even harder to hear the woman saying I am essentially saying I'm the better candidate for this job than that guy. That is still very discomfiting for us. I would say this time around, she embraced her gender much more enthusiastically. Why well, I think she realized it had been a mistake in two thousand eight. I mean, there was there are lessons that I think she drew from

Barack Obama's campaign correctly. Um. He also was very careful and had to be in terms of how he talked about race. But what he was very successful at was making this kind of emotional compact with voters, like we're making history together, We're doing this important thing. We can all feel good about ourselves because we are working towards something that is very overdue and a grave injustice in the United States, and we're working towards a small correction

of it that will actually be a big correction of it. Um, it doesn't work, it's it's not a parallel set of strategies around around women's progress in the United States. But I think that she took some lesson, which is that people want to feel celebratory and good about making history, and this is making history. This country has a hard time unambivalently celebrating milestones and women's rights. It's very complicated, and it's and it's very fraught, and Hillary is walking

right into that. It's also fraught because of who she is and the baggage she brings to the conversation. Absolutely she brings. But on the other hand, taking apart who Hillary is and who she's become and how she's become that way, you can't do that with also without looking at her as somebody who is formed, um by being this rather anomalous woman in an extremely male world. I mean, there's which is not to make excuses. That's not the same thing as making excuses for the various negative things

about Hillary Clinton and and there are many of them. Um. But it is to say that it's not an accident that this is the candidate we got right, we didn't. It's not a passive, you know, sort of quirk of nature that this is the person who bubbled up to be the first woman president. Right to some degree, Hillary Clinton was also made by the very history that she

is now campaigning to change. If that makes any sense, it does, it does, and it doesn't because I think you have to also consider the Clinton legacy and the Clinton baggage in general. It's not just Hillary Clinton. It's I understand what you're saying on one level, but I also wonder if there would be the possibility of a woman without quite this much baggage, with the kind of choices and judgments that had been made in the past,

to rise to the surface. Sure there will be a woman who comes after her who has none of this baggage, right,

or who has a different set of baggage. But but if you look at the history of women in American politics, the first women, the first mayors, the first representatives, the first governors, um, almost all of them arrived there in one way or another via the widows mandate or taking over their father's Here, I mean, historically speaking, it was practically inevitable that the first female president was probably going

to have a strong relationship to a male president. In in our history, proximity to power has been the closest that most women have gotten to power, and therefore the first women to actually break through have been the ones who started with proximal power and necessary rung on the ladder if you will, I mean, I think even if she doesn't get elected, h the mark of her political legacy is so big, both between two thousand and eight

and this year, that it is already readjusted. She's helped already to readjust our eyes and ears to the idea of what somebody could look like on a presidential stage. He's not a white guy. I have to ask you about the white pants suit, because I didn't realize until recently how symbolic that was that Geraldine Ferraro wore white. For example, and there have been other examples, the Suffragets. It was it was the color of the suffragists. These

suffragists wore white with gold and purple um sashes. So that was probably no mistake. Wasn't that she wore a white pant suit, which I thought looked really nice. By the way, is that wrong for me to say I'm all by the way, I should say. We we talked earlier about sort of being critical about clothes. I'm on the bandwagon for discussing clothes because that's part of the history. Again, we've never had a president who wore pant suits, who

you know, had to worry about cleavage. And in two thousand eight, there was an article in the Washington Post about Hillary is clevange, but she never really bugged me, by the way, I'm glad you brought that up, because that really annoyed me, the tone and angle of that story. I don't mind sort of discussing it because it's something that people notice and think about and contemplate. But I didn't like. I just don't. I didn't like the way

the person wrote that piece. That's very fair. The thing I would defend is the noting, for example, that she wore white when she accepted the nomination. And we can't be so uptight that we can't talk about it. I just wish men had more interesting garments to sport, because

they're so boring. There's nothing to really talk about, and that's why, you know, when I did the CBS Evening News, a lot of people commented on my clothes and my hair and my makeup and the way I held my hands, and it was you know, there's a fine line of noticing, appreciating, even discussing, and having that be the prevalent thing that is coming for people, right And the amount of energy that you I mean, I imagine that you spent having

even to listen to that stuff compared to your male predecessors, to your male colleagues. I'm sure that was also true on the Today Show. I mean, I'm pretty sure you think anybody is Do you think anybody discusses what Scott Pelley is wearing during an interview? Ever? Ever? But anyway, enough about me, Let's talk about Hillary and how she was able to just to put a button on this clothing conversation neutralize the whole discussion about what she was wearing.

I read. I mean, it's so interesting to me, Rebucca, I just read a whole piece on how pants suit? Why are women wearing pants suits and men wearing suits? Pant suits? The term started to be used in the eighteen sixties, when little boys were shorts with their jackets, and there is something slightly demeaning about pants in santalizing rights, which is what we That's one of the ways we deal with women is we treat them like their children

if we're going to indulge the clothes thing for more. Second, I have to say that my very favorite sartorial period for Rillery was when she was Secretary of State. She started wearing these big pattern dresses. I thought about it, like, I mean, kind of move moves I mean, and it's like, I mean, the thing about that period was that the way she was dressing and handling herself, she was so busy, and it seemed like she was so powerful and like she just didn't give a ship for me. It was

her at her most sort of beautiful. If I'm going to evaluate the sartorial choices, but now I think she's so busy it's just as easy to have a set of pants suits. And she knew that if she wore a big pattern dress right now on the presidential trail, I would never hear the end of it. It would be armageddon. So you know, Hillary has very bad numbers when it comes to trustworthiness, no surprise and likability, but

so does Donald Trump on the likability front. How much of the I don't trust her is a proxy for good old fashioned sexism in your view, well a lot of it. Um. I'm actually in the midst of writing a piece, um that delves into the history of distrust and women and the way that we can talk about women is fundamentally unreliable, as deceptive, um, as a way of diminishing their potential power of the history and that

a little bit. I mean, I I interviewed somebody, so I'm I'm writing this piece, and I interviewed a professor who said to me for and it was such a great point. She said, whenever we talk about our dislike for women, so often it comes down to the fact that you just can't trust them in a way that goes back to the Bible. I mean, this sense that women are fundamentally deceptive and duplicitous is an extremely old

theme with Hillary Clinton. You have somebody if you're just going to compare Clinton and Trump on this on this ground, right, they're all these like PolitiFact rates, you know, people's truthfulness, and if you look at the charts of sort of twenty of the most powerful politicians in the country, right now, Hillary come is in second, right below Barack Obama and just above Bernie Sanders and Jeb Bush. Interestingly as a

sort of most truthful politician. Jill Abramson, who was another female first and she was the former editor of the New York Times, wrote a big piece in The Guardian about as somebody who had been in charge of all these investigations into Hillary Clinton's purported malfeasance. What she found, after having reported on it and edited pieces about these massive investigations, was that she was a fundamentally honest person. Um. And yet these allegations that she's that she's duplicit as

stick to her. We just can't trust her. There's something about her we can't trust. It is irrational based on what we actually know. And we can take one story like the emails, um, you know, the fact that she did her own she set up our own server and went around and that can be our evidence, um and fair enough, except that Colin Powell also, you know, operated in similar ways with regard to the emails there. I mean,

but in fairness, wasn't the FBI investigation. She didn't say I never sent classified information where there was classified information. According to COMI on seven of those email changes. I mean it's it's not quite. It's not as cut and dried as that. And that's why, in many ways, I don't know that Hillary Clinton's um dishonesty, which is and there are moments of it. I don't know that that

sets her apart from politicians. Politicians are known to be dishonest, and Hillary Clinton is a politician who is sometimes dishonest. The way in which it is blown up to be the most salient feature of Hillary Clinton, I think flies in the face of rationality. Then you look at somebody like Donald Trump. Donald Trump delights in lying to us every day. He takes pleasure in it. He contradicts the

thing he said the day before. He tells you something that is easily disprovable with like four seconds on Google. He it's like he practically enjoys getting away with the stuff. And when we talk when when when voters talk positively about what they like about Donald Trump, what is it? He's a straight talker. He tells it like it is. He says the things we're thinking and can't say. Right he is. There's something transparent and even though he's disliked,

you're right. He also has very bad favorability numbers. The reason that people one of the reasons people say they like him is because there's something just straightforward about him. So yeah, I think it's probably gendered in ways that are very deep and very complicated. Conversely, what we're seeing happen in the Trump campaign is fascinating in terms of it's I would say cluelessness about women's issues, as evidenced by the comments he has made recently about sexual harassment.

I would say I got into television when harass was two words instead of one. It's a very good line, thank you. It always gets a laugh. I also say that gravitas is Latin for testicles. So obviously I come to this from a very unique and probably specific point

of view. But I thought watching this conversation about sexual harassment of the workplace has been fascinating because I feel that I have been in a time machine and taken back to a Mad Men episode in terms of the understanding of sexual harassment by Donald Trump, when he says if Ivanka was treated like that, I think she wouldn't put up with it, or she would go get another job, or she right Um and even her brother saying similar

things too tough and strong that would never happen to her. So, um, what do you think of those comments? My perspective on them is that they're probably not as clueless as we think. You know, you think they're playing Yeah, well, I think their cluelessness is part of their appeal to the audience. I think that Donald Trump takes a pride in and understands that part of his popularity is based on the fact that his worldview when it comes to gender and race is rooted in a madman or uh that is.

I thought at the beginning of his campaign that there would be corrections of this stuff, And the more I see it continue, and you know, these kind of comments grow worse, the more I suspect that this is in fact what he's running on. He's not going to correct it because it's part of what makes his base love him. There was a video published on the New York Times website that that shows unedited comments from Trump supporters, and it is clear that part and they are racist epithets,

sexist epithets. And what becomes clear watching at least the enthusiasm at those rallies, which are of course part of what's powering his popularity that there's excitement that there is a guy who would still be clueless about sexual harassment and take a perverse kind of pride in it, who doesn't care about sexual harassment, who does view women and black people um as subsidiary populations in some way over

whom he exerts a kind of authority. That is part And so I have, yes, maybe clueless, but the expression of his cluelessness I don't think is an error on his part. I think it is part of what he is running on. Sometimes I wonder about the women's vote because I think about the wives and many of these disenfranchised, alienated, working class voters who are perhaps more traditional and live

in areas that are less urban. Are we discounting the possibility that in some cases women adapt the political positions of their husbands. No, that's real. Married women vote Republican. So white women vote Republican. So is it too big a stretch to say that women are gonna come out for Hillary and she's going to do super well? Too big a stretch? The populations of women who come out for who are likely, based on past polling data and past elections, to come out for Hillary, are young women,

women of color, a single lady. Married women who have just written a book about unmarried women are perhaps one of the more powerful vote blocks in the country, and one of the biggest in they were of the electorate. Um. They by many measures one Barack Obama reelection UM, and they are predicted in it's predicted that of women voters more will be unmarried than married, and they vote very left. They need a new compact with their government. They need

a new set of social policies. They need things like paid leave, higher minimum wage, subsidized childcare, equal pay protections, all kinds of things that Democrats are promising. Um. Single women are likely to vote for Hillary Clinton, especially over Donald Trump, who's like a sexist ogre um, by a huge margin, probably much larger than what we saw in twelve if I were to guess, UM. But married women

still tend to vote Republican by a smaller margin. Having said that, has Donald Trump changed that he may There are a lot of people who the female distaste for Donald Trump seems really high. UM. And it's hard to know and how we actually see how until we get more polling and until we see how people actually act when they go into a voting booth. Um, because I think there are some hardcore female Donald Trump supporters. She's you know, they are angry about some of the same

things his male supporters are angry about. And I think that they're being underestimated. Yeah, I mean, I think that they are being underestimated. I think they're going to be very vocal, very loud, And yes, I do think. I certainly think that there's going to be a big percentage of women who vote for Donald Trump. I don't think it probably is going to be as big um as it might have been were it Marco Rubio or Jeb

Bush that Hillary Clinton was running against. Let's talk about your time with Hillary Clinton on the trail and bring it full circle. You spent a lot of time with the Clinton campaign. You wrote a piece for New York Magazine all about her. Tell us something about Hillary Clinton that we don't know. Well, you know, the thing that I will say, having spent time with her is something that you probably you may not feel it, but you may have also heard it from other people have spent

time with her. She's very funny, and she's immensely warm, and she's quite relaxed. And I think that those things are I just heard people putting on their brakes all

over America and going what Yes. I was really struck by because for years, as somebody who had written about Hillary and written and read everything that's ever been written about her, um, I knew that there was this split between how people who know her say she is, Oh, she's funny, she has a great sense of humor, she laughs all the time, she loves her friends, versus her public perception, which is like cold, driving, ambitious, calculating, you know,

can't communicate with anybody. I knew that there was this dichotomy. And then when I, you know, sort of got in and got to spend time with her, sure enough, I was like, wow, it really is true. But I think the thing that surprised me so I was like, right, she is funny, and she does laugh, and she has a great sense of humor and clearly has a terrifically warm relationship with the people who are who are in her in her circle. The thing that I didn't know

was how calm she'd seen. The other thing is that she was so good at the basics of campaigning. We hear all the time about Hillary Clinton is not a natural candidate, and it's true She's not a natural orator, but the sort of handshaking, remembering everybody's name, remembering a detail, Oh I remember when we saw each other, however many days ago, how's your kid doing, how's that? Kind of glad handing retail politics. She was just absolutely smooth and capable,

and it was like watching an Olympic athlete. That was also surprising to me. There was nothing awkward or chilly about her one on one or with the people that she was talking to on the trail. Are they going to unleash this? Hillary Clinton? Will she allow herself to be unleash Like Aladdin comes out of that little lamp and suddenly you're going to say, oh my gosh, she's so much different than I thought. I think that they would like to unleash her, but I don't know if

it's possible on a large scale. I mean, this is one of the challenges. All this stuff is in one on one campaigning or in small groups. As soon as you put her on a stage in front of a large crowd, it becomes much more difficult. She's capable of it, but it's a much more difficult project. They won't let her talk to enough reporters to press. It's insane. Let me talk to her, let me do an interview with her. I've known her since nineteen two. I did her first

interview as first lady. I'm like, just let her be herself. Obviously, I'm going to ask tough questions, duh. But I think she needs to to show that side of her. And I just don't understand why they're so reticent. I think he has put her in a put her in a venue where it will come out. I have. I have had the same frustrations for many years. I mean it's been many years that I've been asking to talk to Hillary Clinton in one capass or another, and it took

a really long time. Um. I think she has an antipathy toward the press, and I think, though I may understand some of it, she's had. You know, she's had a rough time of it. I always say I hate the press, that I am one, But this is an instance in which I think it would be good for everybody if she could figure out a way to get over it. And I don't. I don't see that happening. And to bring it full circle, how does she are white men of a certain age just a lost cause?

At this point, Well, there's certainly not a loss cause in terms of the policies that she's putting forth. I mean, one of the interesting things about the platform and the way she's campaigning is that she's working hard for them, and you know, college educated white men are actually breaking for her. I'm talking about working classing class white men. She's having a very hard time with UM, and there are all kinds of arguments about why that might be.

One of the interesting things about her campaign is that while strategically, I think there is an argument that she could sort of cut the losses on that because her base, you know, of voters of color women that that strategically the best move is to turn out the vote in those areas, she is actually choosing to really work hard

for the for the working class white vote. I mean, this is she picked Tim Kane, and there are there are a lot of arguments for picking a running mate who would be both more progressive and in many ways appeal to other to other populations, to our constituencies. Um, she picked the white guy, the southern white guy. UM. Talking about raising the minimum wage, infrastructure jobs, green jobs, UM.

These are all economic issues that would have a profound impact on America's white working class, whether or not she wins their votes. It is true that she's proposing policy that would hopefully be good for them, but Donald Trump is tapping into a feeling, and those are two very different things. What about Bernie bros. You know, we hear

and young feminists or young women in general. Um, Madeline Albright got into a lot of trouble when she said her famous line, which I've often quoted, there's a special place in hell for women who help don't help other women. And I think young women felt that was a real affront, saying we're not going to vote for Hillary simply because she is female. Do you think that they've come around?

And what about male supporters of Bernie Sanders under the age of thirty, for example, Well, by this I haven't seen the numbers post convention, but at this going into the convention, more former Bernie supporters had said that they were going to vote for Hillary Clinton than Hillary supporters said they were going to vote for Barack Obama going into the two thousand eight conventions. So I don't have a tremendous worry um that they're not going to come around.

What about women under the age of thirty. You know, there there was this generational divide when it came to Hillary Clinton, at least in the primaries. Uh, what are you hearing from some of them? My impression is that a lot of young women are actually and I've heard from a lot of them who are Bernie supporters, who are going to vote for Hillary Clinton. I think young women are going to move to Hillary Clinton fairly quickly. I think many of them already have, and I think

some of them actually were excited. Many of many of the Bernie supporting young women didn't hate Hillary Clinton. A lot of people, and it's it's very natural for young people to lean more left than older people. I mean, that's and that's part of what was being presented by the Bernie Hillary choice is that Bernie the perception was that Bernie had left or politics more radical politics. And I think it's very natural and healthy for young people

to prefer radical politics. It's likewise natural and healthy for older people who have seen some of the sausage made to have perhaps a more moderate take on on the approach. And so I didn't find that generational divide a sign of like feminisms imminent demise or anything. And I do think that a vastly large percentage of all Bernie voters, and especially young women, never felt intense antipathy towards Hillary.

Some of them did, some of them did, and some of them may change their minds on that, or may reluctantly vote for her, or may abstain. But and then we'll see how they feel about her if she becomes the president. You know, we'll see how everybody feels power she becomes the president. UM. But I'm not worried that young women as a population are going to stay away

from the polls um in November. I actually think that many people who think they don't care, many people to assume young women don't care about electing a woman president. I believe they'll be surprised, this is my guests, by the number of women who wind up turning out to vote for her and feel pretty excited about it. Rebecca Trast, it's so fun to talk to you. It was really fun to be here. Thanks for having me. Thanks to Gretta Cone and the right Reverend John Delor for producing

the show. Reverend, I wonder how many shows before you stop doing that. Thanks to Mark Phillips for our theme music and Thank you for listening. If you want to leave us a message, please do so. At let me do this part nine to four, four six, three seven. Please subscribe, rate and review the podcast. It helps other listeners to find the show. And we'll talk to you next time. Bye. We adjusted Katie's medicine this morning. It's really the single. It is the single. It is you're

doing it like as Liza Vanelli. Where is that Todd the New God? Okay, I'll stop. I'm gonna be reviewing my contract right after this