Whether it's family, work, health, money, life can be a lot, and it helps to have somebody you can talk to. Talkspace therapists are here to listen and help you process, gain insights, and develop coping strategies for a happier, mentally healthier you. Talkspace Virtual Therapy is covered by many insurance plans, and most insured members pay a twenty five dollars cope, often even less no insurance. Now get eighty dollars off of your first month when you go to talkspace dot
com slash Katiecuric. Hi, everyone, I'm Katiekuric, and this is next question. My guest today, Jada Pinkett Smith. She's one of the most herself people I've ever met. Of course, like any public figure, she's been scrutinized in the media and on social media, but she's always resisted labels and boxes that are so often imposed on her by other people. She's lost and found herself in the public eye more than once at this point, and she's learned some things
about resilience and grit. She's got a new memoir out and it's called Worthy And in our interviews, she's here to bring us on our journey to self worth and to set the record straight on a lot of stuff, rumors about her sexuality, her close friendship with Tupac Shakor before his tragic early death, and some painful and beautiful public moments with her life partner Will Smith. And yes, don't worry. We talk about what Jada calls the Holy
Slap last year at the Oscars. We jump right into it in our interview because I just have to get into how she navigates all of this, especially being someone who people love to talk about endlessly.
I hope you enjoy. Thank you, Yeah, how are you.
It's so good to see you.
Congratulations on your book.
Thank you, Thank you very much.
It's a big deal.
It's like giving birth to another baby, right I know, it's my little.
Baby going into the world in a little while.
How does that make you feel? Are you scared? Are you nervous? Are you excited? What do you think is the overwriting emotion you're feeling right now?
I definitely have a bit of anxiety, you know, And I think it's not so much about like the content, but you know, I just I want it's the intention. I'm just hoping that people get the intention of why I wrote the book, and I'm just hoping that it can be helpful. I just know on my journey it was so difficult, like finding stories from other women that I found relatable to my experience, you know, to just give me a little oxygen when I was in my sticky,
challenging moments, you know. And so I'm just hoping that this could give little breadcrumbs, little oxygen, you know what I mean.
When you described the book sort of your thirty second elevator pitch, Jada, And of course we're going to talk a lot about what's in it.
How would you describe it?
I would describe it as, you know, a challenging journey to self worth.
Yeah, a woman's challenging journey to self worth.
Well, we're going to talk about that journey, but before we do, you know, I was thinking about you, Jada, and I've known you for a long time. I remember when you came on my talk show and you were very involved with, you know, stopping human trafficking. You were so eloquent and poised, and I really enjoyed talking to you, and you had a tremendous amount of depth and commitment to this issue. But you know, oh, Man, people sure love to talk smack about you, and people have such
strong opinions about you. I mean really about everyone in this day and age, but you seem to be a particular lightning rod. And I'm wondering if you ever felt like, screw you people. I'm not going to give you more ammunition to attack me. And my life is none of your damn business.
I think that.
For me because I've been attacked so much, and because it really rolls off.
Of my shoulder in a certain way now it does.
Yeah, because that's one of the beautiful parts about this journey of.
Self worth is like you really like my.
Identity of self worth and what self worth means to me? It has nothing to do or needs no validation from an outside source, right, And.
I know who I am, and I think that.
My belief is that a woman's journey is still considered so taboo to really really talk about it, right, And I felt like, man, I've earned that, meaning what else could people say about me?
And here I am.
My heart's still beating, I'm still breathing in oxygen, you know what I mean. And it's like I'm still standing and I know that most of what people talk about is really around a lot of misunderstanding, people really thinking that they know my story, and I got to take some responsibility around that that I have contributed to you know a lot of that misunder standing and false narrative.
So and that this is all part of the human experience, but I really feel that it's important for those of us who can, as far as women, to share our authentic journeys. And I just feel like whatever, you know, it's like I have really been able to deal with my level of self judgment, and so anybody's judgment towards me, you know, it has no force because my self judgment is I won't say cured, but I definitely have a really beautiful management of it. And so I know who
I am. Three and three you really share.
I was going to say you really go there, which happened to be the title of my memoir that came out a couple of years ago, where I wanted to be very honest. But you are incredibly honest and vulnerable, and I'm wondering how scary that was, And are there things that you kept to yourself in this world where we share so much, were there things that were almost sacred to you? That you didn't want to tell the world about.
Well, I'm going to tell you here's what's interesting.
As vulnerable and as open as I am in this book, it's scratching the.
Surface, it really is.
You know. It's like I kept I kept that close to the chest, you know, those things, And so I'm sharing the things that I'm comfortable with, you know, and you know some of the stuff. Though, I was more concerned about others than myself. I was concerned about my mom. You know, our journey together, and you know I she's come, She's come through her journey in such in such a beautiful way. But I know that rehashing things can be difficult and then having.
It in print, you know.
So I was really more concerned about others than myself.
I want to talk about your mom and your grandmother in a moment. But the opening pages are really riveting because you described Jada an extremely troubling scene that occurred a little over ten years ago. You found yourself considering ways you could take your own life and make it appear to be a fatal accident. Can you take us back to that moment and why you thought it was important to begin your book with that.
I wanted to, well, first of all, I think that a huge part of my journey has been centered around mental health, honestly, you know.
And I also.
Wanted people to know from the gate, hey guys, we're about to take a deep dive, you know.
And that was.
Important to me. And that's really why I started there, because.
That was set. I mean, that was a really difficult That.
Was my bottom. Right. It's like, Okay, I'm gonna start you at the bottom, and then I'm gonna take you back, and then I'm going to bring you back to that moment, you know, and then I'm going to take you on the next journey from.
That moment, you know, And I'm going to explain to you how I got to that moment, which was in your car, right, can you explain? I think it won't spoil anything because it is on the first few pages of the book.
So yeah, yeah, I mean, I just remember, I can't remember I was coming from.
I think I was coming from somewhere.
In I think I had a meeting or something, and I was literally driving home, and I just remember thinking I was just looking while I was driving, and it was a road that I had driven quite often, and I was like, you know what, I'm going to start checking out these clips. I really feel like I could make this look like an accident. I think this might be it. This might be the remedy here. And I remember pulling over and looking in all the different angles at which I could turn.
My wheel and would I do.
It at night when I do it during the day, getting out the car, saying if it was steep enough. And as morbid as it might sound, I remember feeling.
More at ease because I had a plan.
You know. Really, that wasn't the first time I had thought about Yeah, that wasn't the first time.
And it was that it was just really important for me to.
Find a way to make it look like an accident because of my kids.
I didn't want my children to ever think.
That I had committed suicide, you know, And that was really the most important part for me, you know, and it was one of the reasons why I was able to hold out for so long. And I was like, oh, this is the way that I can do it.
You know, you had considered ending your life when you were in your twenties as well.
I did.
I did, and that was the first time, and that was that happened in it. It was almost like it was like a nervous breakdown. It was like just an overwhelming amount of intense emotions just took over me at once, to the point that my body was shaken. I I kind of lost control of myself.
And I remember getting home and calling my mother. I was like, you got to get out here.
And my mother had to figure out, you know, how to get her job situation together, and she was she was I think my mother was only a year into her sobriety. And I called my girlfriend mc light. I was like, I cannot be left alone. I need you right now, and she got on the first plane to come out to be with me in LA until my mother could come.
Yeah.
And you know, I never and I talked about it in the book. From there, DeBie Allen got me a doctor who got me to psychiatrists that put me on some prozac to just stabilize me. And then I started therapy with the doctor that Debbie got me to and I got stabilized. But then I met Will and he became my new prozac.
You know.
It's like that idea of just like I'm good, you know, I got this new love in my life, but you know, I'm good. I don't need to worry about all of that, and so I abandoned. I kind of just dropped the ball on my mental health. But you know, at that time, nobody was talking about mental health in the way that we talk about it now.
It's amazing, isn't it.
Yeah, nobody was talking about it, and so I kind of felt like, Okay, I spent a year.
You know, I'm feeling good. I should be getting back to my life now.
You know, you know, I really believe the increased awareness around mental health is vital. So I'm glad to share a message with all of you from our partners at Talkspace. If you've ever thought should I be in therapy? The answer is definitely yes. I say that because almost anyone can benefit from therapy, whether you're struggling with big challenges or simply want to talk to a trained professional who
will give you some perspective. But if you think you don't have the time or money for therapy, I have the solution Talkspace. Register at talkspace dot com and be matched with a licensed therapist within days. You'll do virtual video or audio appointments. Message back and forth with your therapist or both. No need to take time off or get childcare. This is therapy wherever, whenever works best for you. Plus, talkspace is in network with major insurers and they'll build
your plan directly. Most insured members only pay a twenty five dollars cope often less. No insurance, no problem. Now get eighty dollars off of your first month when you go to talkspace dot com slash Katiecurric Match with a licensed therapist today at talkspace dot com slash Katiecurric. I'm so fascinated, Jada by what people experience as children and those wounds and that trauma and how it manifests itself
later in life. And you spend a lot of time talking about your family, which is a very tender and nuanced to I think portrait, because there was a lot of good but a lot of really hard stuff you dealt with. You grew up in Baltimore. Can you talk a little bit, Jada about your family situation about first about your mom, a little bit about your dad, and then I'm going to move on to your grandmother.
Marian.
Yeah, my mom, My mom had you know, she was a teen mom.
She had me at seventeen, you know, and my grandmother insisted that she married my father, who was an addict and an alcoholic and a criminal, and.
Two kids, you know, got married. They only stayed married for a year.
My father was abusive, and thank goodness, my mother was you know, smart enough to just you know, they had an incident, a physical, violent incident, and that was it for her.
She moved in.
With my grandparents and I we basically lived with them off and on throughout my childhood.
Your father, I think, told you when you were seven years old, I'm a drug addict and a criminal, so I can't be your father. And you described that moment as one of the most important lessons in your young life.
Yeah, so it really taught me how to really embraced harsh truths.
I have to tell you I was.
I remember being so relieved that he told me the truth, right that He's like, whatever expectations you have of me, I mean, that's basically what you're saying. I'm not gonna be able to live up to the daddy thing, you know, And I at that age appreciated that.
Now, as I got older, I got.
To see how that affected how my level of self worth with men and in intimate relationships, you know. But that was when I got older. But at that particular time, because I didn't really have he wasn't really in my life in that way anyway, and I hadn't had had a father, I didn't even know what it actually was anyway to miss it. You know.
It wasn't until my stepfather came into the picture that was like, oh, this is what a father is.
You know. And then when that didn't, when he you know, left the premises, I really felt the loss of a father figure. Then.
So you are basically living with your grandparents, Gilbert and Marian and your mom. Your dad is out of the picture, You're relieved, but your mom then runs into a lot of challenges.
Yeah.
Yeah, my mother.
Was a heroin addict, a high high, high functioning heroin addict, because she worked as a nurse and at times even was head of a woman's clinic in Baltimore at the high of her addiction. And so yeah, we definitely she definitely had a lot of challenges in regards to her addiction.
How can you be a high functioning heroin addict.
Yes, I've never seen that, but my mother, Yeah, she's a I've seen high functioning alcoholics, but I've never met a high functioning heroin addict.
But she was that.
I mean, when you see pictures of my mother in my teen years two throughout all the years, you would never know, you would never know, never know.
But she got help.
Once I was she would She was in and out of rehab during my teen years, and she finally I was twenty by the time my mother got clean.
You talk about your grandmother, Marian, and you write whenever I think of my origin story, it's not really set on the streets of Baltimore. I think of Marian's garden. She was my mother's mother. Some of my earliest memories were formed at her side, out in her garden, learning powerful lessons I would use for the rest of my life. Yeah, what did you learn from your grandmother? Oh man, how you can you know?
My grandmother was a composter before that was a thing, you know, And how you can take fish heads and lemon peels, and you know, all of this garbage and put it into the earth and make some really great things, you know, help nourish the earth, you know, and how nothing is wasted. And that was a lesson for me.
You know.
She had this rose garden, and she loved these roses, and it was so amazing to me how these roses were so beautiful, but they had these really thick thorns, really thick thorns. And you know, just as I got older and recognizing like wow, how something so beautiful really understood how to set a boundary right and so right? How you have to set boundaries around all the treasures, all the beautiful treasures within yourself.
And that's something I'm still learning to this day.
Writing a book is a bit like therapy, And I'm curious if you have a better understanding of this turbulent childhood of yours and how it has manifested itself in the woman you became and are continuing to become.
Yeah, my mom, and I has beautiful aha moments writing this book. You know, That's why it was so important for me to go into the history of my great grandmother to my grandmother, to my mother to myself, because you got to see this generational this line of trauma through us, all right, and how along the line, you know, how that generational trauma was getting healed along the way. And I think my mother seeing that line and being able to connect the dots.
My mother got a lot.
Of healing, and so did I in regards to why my mother might have reacted a certain way in certain aspects of my life, like when I got pregnant, needing me to be married, because.
When she got pregnant, my grandmother demanded she get married, you know.
So how her her trauma from that experience just bled into so, you know, my experience, and that was really that was really eye opening for us. But this book, I got so much healing out of it, just being able to make peace with so many aspects of my life, deep in the peace because I thought I had.
You know, once you write a book, you're like, oh, I thought I dealt with that.
It's like, oh, actually, there's more stuff there that has to be looked at and dealt with.
And I got the opportunity to do that.
You know, when you were younger, why do you think you gravitated to the arts. And I'm wondering was that in response? Was it looking for some kind of fantasy world where you could take on a different role and be a different person and kind of get away from some of the things that were difficult.
Yeah, no, because I was I remember being three years old and playing the Wicked Witch of the West in nursery school and just loving it. I think I was born as an artist. And my grandmother, my grandmother, was an artist. She was an oil painter. Like my grandmother was a visual artist. She played the piano, she was an oil painter, she could sketch, she threw clay on the wheel. All of her kids are artists in a
certain manner. My mother makes jewelry with silver. I mean, you name it, right, And so I think that we all kind of had that artistic bug. And my grandmother really cultivated my interests in the arts.
So I had.
To take tap dance, ballet, I had to take piano classes.
All of it.
I had to throw. I had to throw clay on the wheel. I had to learn how to arrange flow. So that's what my days were full of. Like I did not have a resting moment. Like on the weekends, I was up at eight and I was off to all these different classes. So I was as busy doing the weekend as I while I was doing the week day.
So that's incredible, though, that she did that for you, that she opened up those avenues for you and encouraged you to explore all those things, and you have a very sweet story about being twelve and playing Dorothy and the rest of the OZ and boy, honestly, I would be so traumatized because I'm always terrified of forgetting things or being in a public place and having to remember
something and then freezing or drawing a blank. And that happened to you when you were about to sing the signature song of that musical.
Absolutely, you know, that was the moment I knew. I was like, Hey, I'm born to do this.
Well, explain what happened and how you handled it, because honestly, I give you a lot of prompts for that.
Yeah, I mean, I was my whole my entire family was there and I am singing somewhere over the Rainbow, and in the middle of the song, I just forget and I look into the audience and I say, hey, guys, will you help me sing the song? I've forgotten the words? Will you sing along with me? And the audience is like, you know, and.
So they join in and I pick up where I was, like, Okay, that's where we are, and start singing and we sing it together, and that was it. That was the finale, and everybody just enjoyed it so much, you know, and I was like, Okay, show must go on. That was the first professional moment that I had, And you know, it's like I.
Just I was like, I was quick on my feet.
What do you think that experience taught you? It seems to be a metaphor for life in a way, doesn't it.
Yeah, in a way, it's like, don't be afraid to ask for help even when it seems as though you should. You shouldn't be in that you're not in a position to or you shouldn't be in a position.
To ask for help.
You know.
It's like, that was the moment that I asked for help.
And I'm the one who should have known the words, you know, but I didn't, and I got the help that I needed and it was a joy and we got through it together and we all left with a smile.
So it's like, that's that's life right there.
Ask for help and the people were happy to help you.
You know.
I think that's the other side of it, that this audience wasn't sitting in judgment.
They were there to catch you as you were falling.
Exactly, absolutely, So you know, that's what life is really about at the end of the day.
We'll be back with more of Jada Pinkett Smith right after this. If you want to get smarter every morning with a breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter, Wake Upcall by going to Katiecuric dot com. And we're back with Jada Pinkett Smith. Let's talk about as your career progressed, Debbie Allen was an incredibly important figure in your life. Talk to us about how you all joined forces, and I know she was a huge
role model for you. Talk about sort of how your lives intersected.
Well.
I went to audition for a Different World and it was just for a starring role.
Was the character who it was a student who.
Had contracted HIV and I went into audition and Debbie, she was like, I want to know more about you. Tell me a little bit about you. And I told her my life story. I said, you know, I'm from Baltimore, went to Baltimore School for the Arts, which is quite like fame, and I've always wanted to be like you and I'm actually going to be the next Debbie Allen and she cracked up, and you know, she just kept asking me questions and she said, you know what, I'm not going to give you the role you came into
audition for. I'm going to write you. I'm going to make you a series regular. And she told me that in the room and I was like, what you know? And from then on she's just been one of my you know, she's just been like a mother to me.
Honestly, what kind of advice has Debbie Allen giving you, Jada, when you've had these certain challenges in your life, or you know, controversies or people are ragging on you. I'm curious what she has told you through the years.
You know what, Debbie doesn't pay attention to that stuff because Debbie's been in this business a long time and she knows that none of that matters. And Debbie rarely gives advice. Debbie checks in, you know, she checks in. She's like, are you good? Okay good?
I need you.
I want you to come to this thing. And I'm like, Debbie, all this stuff is going on, I don't care about none of that. You come and you spend some time with me. We're gonna be down here with these kids. I need you here to inspire these kids. Come on, we're not worried about these people. Now get on down here. Don't make me come get you.
That's Debbie.
You mentioned the Baltimore School for the Arts. You had a very special classmate in that school.
Yes, I did, Tupac Tupac Shakur.
You all were very close while you were in school. Yes, talk to us about that relationship, you know, I talk about it in the book. Is like the idea we were.
Kind of not literal orphans, right.
But the idea that we had single moms who were addicts, and so we really depended on each other to compensate for what was missing at home a bit. And that's really how we became such good friends. And we had another good friend actually happened to be uh my boyfriend at the time, John Cole. We were like the three Musks to us, and so Tupac and John were really close, and John and I were dating at the time, and so it was it was the three of us all the time, you know, And so it was it was
a really magical time of my life. When he passed away, we weren't speaking. I would say that we were really young, and you know just how what life was presenting at that time in regards to what he was involved in
and how I felt about it. And Pac and I were two very passionate people and very opinionated, passionate people, and so I would definitely say, and I talk about it in the book, and the idea that you know, don't if you have a conflict with someone that you love and you cherish, just rectify it as quickly as possible, because you know, you just never know, You just never know. I never expected that Pac would that you know, he would die. So we were young. I felt like he
was invincible. You feel like you're invincible in your youth. So that's the last thing you're thinking about. And he had survived so much already. And to think he was just twenty five years old. He was a baby.
He's the age of my son right now.
Right, Let's talk about your career a little more, Jada. You went to Hollywood in the early nineties and you write about this being a special time for young black actors. Describe what the whole zeitgeist was like for young women and men like you.
Yeah, it was it was like I call it the Golden Era. It's like you know, we had so much opportunity. Hollywood in a certain manner was so many doors were opening for our stories that had never been told before. Hip hop was on the rise to you know, coming into more of the what do you call it, commercial playing field.
It wasn't underground anymore.
You had so many stand up comics that were, you know, given the opportunity to have sitcoms, whether it was Martin or Will or you know, you had keenan Ivory WANs within Living Color. I mean, it was just so much of our like creativity that was given opportunity in Hollywood at that time. And that was the time that myself, Nia Long, Halle Berry, Regina King, we were all in the rooms together.
And we were young, and we were hungry.
And there was so much It was a lot of opportunity happening, and so there was like this level of like sisterhood and camaraderie that was just beautiful during that time.
Sounds so exciting and fun.
Yeah, it was such an exciting time and it was so fun. You know, it was just like we were young, hungry, hot, and it was just happening.
Are you still close to all those girls?
You know, life is life does what life does.
We hardly see each other, but when we do see each other, it's always love, it's always hugs, it's always grins, and you know, it is the memory of that time. And I think, you know, I talk about it in the book. You know, when Hallie won the Oscar, she gave homage to that era, right, she gave homage.
To that era.
And that was such a beautiful moment, wasn't it.
Absolutely?
And it's because of what that moment was. We were in it together, you know, we all came up in the game together and so and at that time, it was like, that was the attitude. If Halle got a role, we knew that Halle getting that role was ultimately going to open up doors for the rest of us. Right, So Halle's win is our win. Nia's win is my win, you know what I mean, Because it's just going to create more opportunity.
And that is what she stepped up on that.
Oscar stage with. It's like, I'm here, but I'm bringing y'all with me.
Yeah, you met Will Smith, I know a few times during those early years, but you're right that you all didn't officially get together until nineteen ninety five. When he called you the very week his divorce was final.
Right.
You talk about falling for Will being a very unexpected thing for.
You, Yeah, which I was surprised to read.
Me falling for Will Smith was very unexpected from Afar And even after meeting him a couple of times in the Hollywood world, I concluded that Will Smith would never have been on my radar only because he was so cheerful.
He was cheerful, that's right, Yeah, because street dudes aren't cheerful, you know what I mean. So I'm like, nah, that's not really my vibration right there.
But you know, don't judge a book by his cover.
And what was it that turned you around? He was so I think my maturity honestly, and hadn't been through I you know, I talk about it in the book. I just had gone through just so much stuff. I was like, you know what, you need to try a different kind of guy, right, And Will was just so intelligent, and he's one of those people that can go from the hood to the White House and everything between.
Right.
But it was really his intelligence coupled with his silliness.
It was such a beautiful, you know, kind of balance.
And I can be really you know, he's all sky too, such a big dreamer and everything he wants fun and I'm so like contemplative and you know, just just always in my head and in my thoughts, and he just had a way of like getting me out of there and teaching me how to have some fun and how to laugh.
And so that's that's really what it was.
But in a way, you lost yourself in the relationship, didn't you?
As time went on?
And I think it's really universal, you know, as women and just trying to figure out and being a young woman what does it mean to be a wife?
What does it mean to be a mother? And really trying to figure.
All that out along the way, and you know, really losing myself.
Not that I came into the relationship with much.
Of myself, to be honest with you, but I was definitely very challenged in that way.
But how did that make you feel? I mean, how tough was that to navigate this feeling I don't know, subsumed by someone else's big personality and character and feeling like you're less than I think it must happen to a lot of Hollywood couples because it must be difficult to have two actors in a marriage, right.
I don't know. It sounds like it would be hard to me.
But you know what, it wasn't so much that dynamic, right. It wasn't so much of like needing you know that Will was this big persona and wanted this.
You know, big career.
Right. It was more of, Hey, that's okay too, but hey, let's quiet it down and let's get into more of the intimacy of family, right. And so it was really more of that than being challenged with having two actors in the household, because I didn't want I didn't want that. I didn't want to be the biggest, you know, actress in the world.
I was cool with that.
All I wanted was like, hey, I want to have a beautiful family. So how do we figure out how to do both that you can be the biggest movie star in the world and we have a beautiful family. And so that was more of the challenge. And so our priorities were different, and.
That was the challenge.
We'll be back with more of Jada Pinkett Smith right after this. We're back with Jada Pinkett Smith. In this book, Jada, you talk a lot about rumors and speculation because I think when people don't I guess, share certain things, others will create their own narratives. Right, this is what they do. They just sort of project what they think on you. And you decided you were going to be honest and
address some of these rumors head on. And you know, I've heard these rumors too through the years, and I'm always like, how do you know? And you know who cares? But you talk about these rumors that circulated forever that you were gay and why that happened? And you know, I do think these things get out in the world and then they snowball and then everyone says it. Then it becomes almost accepted fact. It's such a weird phenomenon.
But why did you want to address that? And I mean, why don't you tell us what you write in the book about that?
Yeah, I mean because I was just like, let's just set the record straight in a certain manner, you know. And it was part it was part of my like youthful experience, you know, I talked about it in the book. I was like, absolutely had an experience with two women at different times, and and you know, I was like, this is spicier than spicier at two different times, and you know, in your youth.
Just like you have options.
It's like, you know, all right, let me see if this is an option, and just realizing like, oh yeah, no, that's not quite my thing. You know, love women, just not in that way and just to that's part of the journey. So that's why it was just part of my my journey of coming into knowing who I am.
But why do you think people are so obsessed with that? I mean, people are obsessed with everything, you know.
People get so obsessed.
With other people's lives because they don't want to pay attention to their own, you know, so I think that I think that people are always looking, you know, to just this looks too perfect, let's nitpick at it. And no, they're beards for each other. And you know, people are always people who are not happy, you know, want to degrade things, that's all. And it's okay, you know, it's no judgment and I've learned that on my journey not to judge it and just recognize not to take it personally.
There's nothing to take personal.
That's hard though, I mean, it's hard to get to that point, isn't it When people are you know, slinging all these.
Yeah, it is.
I think now it's more annoying than hurtful. You know, it's just annoying. And I think thinking this in these times, honestly, people are having such difficulty, and I think people are just kind of acting out in different ways to just let off some steam that really has nothing to do with you or me.
Rather, the other thing you set the record straight on, Jada, is this relationship you had that you call an entanglement, but you clarify in the book that it was not an affair. Honey, I don't know what that means. What is an entanglement?
So it's it's a word that I actually came up with at the table, but it's actually a word that I heard a lot in all of my Buddhist readings. So you'll hear Jack Cornfield talk about it a lot. Right when I was listening to Jack, I was like, dag, is that where where I got it from from? Was
it from Jack? And then when I read the Gita, the Gita talks about entanglements, right, and so they are these situations of confusion that we get involved in in the material world, so we can be entangled in ourselves. You know, arguments are entanglements, and you know, gossiping is a way that you can be entangled. And so that's how I looked at this particular situation. Was an entanglement, but it was not an affair, and so people really thought that entanglement was a new word for a fair
Now you can use it. Absolutely, an affair can be an entanglement, for sure. It's just that my situation was not an affair. In the book, I talk about how in twenty sixteen, Will and I were not together. You know, we had gone our separate ways and we were both living separate lives and on our way to divorce.
So we were done. That's it.
And yet when he appeared on Red Table Talk, he seemed like the person who had been wronged.
Yeah, And what was so interesting, and that's why I love the Table so much. You really got to see a wounded dynamic between us both and an old story played out at that table. Because Will wasn't supposed to be at the table. I never asked him to come to the table, you know, how did that happen? Then he wanted to come to the table. He was like, I don't want you to be there alone. I don't want you to do this alone. And I was like, oh wow, I was actually surprised, and I was like,
I thought that was a beautiful gesture. Once he came to the table and what happened happened, I kind of fell into my codependent martyrdom and I was like, I am going to take care of you by all means necessary because I see that you're not ready. And at the same time, Katie, I really wanted to I want it out of I had come to the table and I was going to go to the table because I
was on my specific journey. So with what I had at that time, that's how I knew how to handle that situation, where I also being very forthright about my experience and not wanting shame. I wasn't going to walk in shame about that experience. But it was a very complicated moment. It was a very complicated moment, and we've done a lot of unpacking of that moment, to say the least.
Well, I got to get to the slap because I wondered when you wrote this book, Jata, if you were wor that was what people really wanted to focus on.
You know what, maybe I knew it was going to be a focus for sure, And of course it's been called the slap herd around the world.
You refer to it as the Holy.
Slap, the Holy slab, and the Holy lessons.
Yes, and it's fascinating to read your account of the events that you know took you a while to process it. Like everyone else watching, you weren't sure if there's a real slap or you know, what was going through your mind and how have you sort of come to terms with the whole thing.
What was going through my mind was, like I talked about in the book, I I thought it was a skit, you know, I was. I was there as a family member, And there's a whole lot of history that go with this that you know in the book.
With Chris and Will, history.
With Will Chris, you know, emancipation and us going into therapy.
But we weren't together, you know, we weren't hadn't been husband and wife since twenty sixteen.
So I was there with him as a family member and not.
Necessarily as his wife, but his life partner. And so.
When it happened, it looked like Chris slipped the shot, and it looked like it was a skit, and then when Will turned around and walked back down the stage, that's when I realized, oh, something is going on here. But I still wasn't quite sure what was happening. And it wasn't until my publicist and Will's publicists came to our seats during the commercial break that Will's publicist said, you know, Chris is leaving the building, but he's not going to press charges. And I said, well, press charges
for what? And she said, because Will hit Chris. And I looked to Will and I said, you.
Hit Chris, You actually hit Chris.
And he said yes, And that's when I knew. I was like, well, I'm his wife. Now we're going to get through this storm together. I knew it was going to be, you know, quite a journey.
It was heartbreaking because it was such an important moment for Will. You know, it could have been a moment as he won the Oscar of Great Triumph, and yet he seemed to sabotage everything. And you say in the book you don't really want to explain his behavior, that that's his story to tell, absolutely, but have you come to any kind of understanding. I'm sure you all have discussed this and gone over it and tried to understand where that impulse came from.
Oh yeah, we've we've talked about it.
But like I said, that's you know, that's his journey, that's his journey.
I wouldn't I wouldn't do a justice, I promise.
How aggravating was it that so many people seem to direct their anger at you and focus on you? And what role did you have? And were you aging him? On and on and on and on.
You know, it's it's age old, it's so old.
It's such an old, old, old story that it's the woman's fault when men behave on savory.
So you know, it's not unique to me, and I wasn't surprised.
We have to wrap things up, but before, just as the end, what is the nature of your relationship?
Now?
Where are you right now in your relationship?
Beautiful life partnership and just in the recognition that we want to share this lifetime together and.
You know which you figuring out what that's going to look like?
Well, the book is called Worthy and Jada, I think you've done an incredible job of really being honest about not only your experience but the human experience in general. And when you look ahead, what are you most excited about after this.
I am looking forward to going on a book tour.
I'm looking forward to that and looking forward to going out and talking to people and shaking hands and talking about the book and intimate group settings.
I'm looking forward to that.
Just sharing with others what you've learned in hopes of helping them or just you.
Know, sharing the book and seeing people's thoughts and you know, and just getting out there and you know, having intimate conversations live.
I've always wanted to do that.
I've always wanted to take the Red Table, you know, out around to different cities, and now we're kind of doing.
That, so you know, I'm kind of excited about that.
So well, thank you for spending time with us. And the book again is called Worthy and Jade. I hope it's not ten plus years before I see you again.
I know, but it's so good to see you. Really, it's wonderful to have this conversation today.
Thank you so much.
I have a good one.
Thanks for listening. Everyone.
If you have a question for me, a subject you want us to cover, or you want to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world, reach out. You can leave a short message at six oh nine five point two five to five oh five, or you can send me a DM on Instagram. I would love to hear from you. Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers are Meet
Katie Kuric and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz, and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes.
Matt Russell can post our theme music.
For more information about today's episode, or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call, go to the description in the podcast app, or visit us at Katiecouric dot com. You can also find me on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.