Hillary Clinton has no complaints

and podcaster. I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is you and me both where I get into some of today's biggest questions with all kinds of amazing people. Madam's secretary. Hey, I'm just going to call her. Hillary took time out of her busy schedule to talk with me about some of the issues that are top of mind right now, from the COVID vaccine and post pandemic life to the

spread of disinformation and police seen in America. But we also spent some time discussing our personal stories, the ways they weirdly intersect, and why women have had such a hard time getting the respect they deserve at home and in the workforce, and why now may finally be the time society moves the needle on gender equality. Amen, Sister Katie. I had such a good time with Hillary Clinton. I just loved our conversation so much. I didn't want it

to end. So let's just get to it. Let me just start by asking Hillary Clinton, how the hell are you? You know, all things considered, I'm knocking on wood as I answer you. I'm great. I have no complaints. I've been hold like so many of us, with only a few exceptions of several funerals and one presidential inauguration. Um. But we've remained healthy. Uh. We've had had a great set up because our grandchildren, our daughter and son in law, were nearby, so we got to spend time with them.

You know. I I am glad to see us. I hope nearing the end of this pandemic, but personally we're very very grateful. Well, you mentioned nearing the end, and my daughter Ellie is getting married in July, so fingers crossed. But I'm still nervous. I'm still nervous about this reemergence. I'm worried about variants. Um. It seems there's still a level of uncertainty. UM. And there's still people who are COVID deniers. I know, how have you been able to

or how are you wrapping your head around that? I am, um, very sorry that, uh, the beginning of this pandemic was in effect cast as a political uh challenge as opposed to a scientific and public health challenge. And what isn't these days? Hillary? Well, but that that didn't have to be. You're right, I mean, everything is being you know, diced

and chopped up and put into these preexisting categories. But it turned into a culture war as opposed to, Hey, we're all in this together, let's get through it, let's save as many lives as possible, let's get everybody vaccinated. So I do share your concerns because it appears that there are significant parts of our population and chunks of

our country that are reluctant or opposed to being vaccinated. Uh. But I am hoping that we will keep moving forward so that we get you know, the vast majority of adults and then slowly kids by early next year. But once we get the vast majority of adults, I certainly am going to breathe easier. But they're not sure I'm going to do everything, but I am gonna, I mean in terms of like going to your usual rave yeah,

my usual rave, including indoor restaurants. I think I'll take all that a little bit uh slow, but I'm going to feel better about it. Well. As you say, it has been turned into a culture war. And I was shocked when I read that, according to one poll, of Republican men are refusing to get vaccinated. Yeah, I mean, go figure, Katie. I mean that is such a uh sign of our times. Sadly that so many um, so

many people, particularly Republicans, are now very serious reality deniers. Obviously, the pandemic is the biggest reality they deny, but they deny a lot of other realities as well. And I don't know what we're going to do other than, you know, keep making the case when it comes to the pandemic and keep winning elections when it comes to politics. I mean, there doesn't seem to be much else that will change

their minds. I'm going to talk to you a little bit later, Hillary about disinformation, misinformation of malinformation, but just just while we're on the subject of the pandemic. I recently interviewed sanche Kupta, who told me a Harvard researcher told him that if for four weeks everybody just wore a high filtration mask when they went out in public. If everybody did that, it would have ended a pandemic. And just four weeks watching how this was managed, what

were you thinking? I can only imagine. I was shocked and appalled at the way that Trump and his White House UM and his enablers treated the pandemic. And the the secret uh is that if he had done even a mediocre job on the pandemic, he could have been reelected because of the electoral College. So he actually heard his own re election chances by pandering to the most radical conspiracy theorists deniers um in his political ambit, and

it cost a lot of lives. I think they've now already been several studies which showed not only what you said, Katie, that we could have really diminished the loss of life and hospitalization if we had all been serious about masking and social distancing and staying indoors for four weeks, but we also could have caught up. Even though we might have fumbled the start of it because this was a new phenomenon. A lot of people were uncertain and confused

about it. But you know, Trump just kept doubling down on the falsehoods calling it a hoax, uh, you know, telling people they could use bleed, coming up with drugs that had no positive effect on the virus, on and on we go. And so it's fair to say that that his mouthfeasance in office and those who enabled him, we're responsible for us having a higher death toll than I think we should have had. I think it was also difficult for people to witness science unfolding. You know,

science didn't immediately have all the answers. It was a work in progress because this was, you know, the key word being novel. And I think that this mistrust in science that already existed was exacerbated by the nature of really understanding what was a complicated virus. Yes, well, I think that's true. I think though, we would have had a somewhat better response if when the scientists were basically saying, look, we're learning as we go, we're not sure, we're going

to have to try some things. We need more data, if there had been political leaders who had said, yeah, that's the way science operates. Science is a you know, a learning phenomenon. You keep testing things. But instead it was oh, okay, well they don't know anything. They don't

know more than you know, I know. So therefore listened to me and that became a dead end because you're right, there was already a kind of anti evidence, anti fact, anti science feeling among certain people in our country expertise or some time. Yeah, and so there was a there was an unfortunate uh amplifying of that by political leaders who themselves were either uh deliberately uh you know, ignorant uh and indifferent or malicious in the way that they

treated science. So would you call it a massive failure of leadership? Of course, of course, I think that. I think that the pandemic um showed how important uh deliberative, fact based leadership is. And we can see that when we compare with the Biden administration how they're handling matters. And look, everybody's tired of being told to mask up and stay socially distanced. People are sick of it. They want to get on with their lives, especially people who

have been vaccinated. But you know, President Biden and his team keep modeling good behavior and keep talking about the importance of getting vaccinated, and they hit some huge numbers in their first hundred days, two hundred million shots. So the difference I think illustrates even more dramatically how inept and cruel, uh and ineffective and deadly the leadership of the Trump team was. When we come back, have things

really changed for women? Hillary shares of revealing story from early in her career that honestly I had never heard and I couldn't believe that's right after this, let's talk about kind of the long view of what's happening in this country. Polarization and some other things that are really coming to a head I think, or have been, I think in the last three or four years. And I covered you when you first entered the national scene. I remember I did your very first interview as First Lady

in nine. Since we're outside the East Wing, I have to ask you, why did you decide to have an office in the West wing of the White House when all the First Ladies before you have worked out of the East Wing. Well, because there are different functions that go with being involved in the activities of the First Lady. You've been challenging the expectations of women in politics and

I think women in general ever since. So thinking about that interview in even prior to that, the campaign, where you were viewed a certain way UM and and became a lightning rod in many ways to now. And I mean it's just sort of unbelievable. It's almost thirty years. Do you think things have changed for women? And I wonder if you're going to tell me yes and no, Well, I think that's the right answer. I think that yes, absolutely and for the better. A lot more barriers have

been broken, opportunities have been opened. Uh. So many women have pursued their dreams against odds but demonstrate they could be overcome. On the global scale, we can look at the increase in girls going to school and UM, women's health care improving, and there's a lot of positive indicators that progress has been made. At the same time, we

know there's still as a double standard. We know that women are still judged almost in a a primeval way based on expectations and stereotypes as to what is expected or should be expected of women. We know that UM there has been a backlash UM that has been complicated but nevertheless real in terms of UM kind of undermining

women's confidence and women's sense of autonomy and agency. Uh. And we know that the pandemic has disproportionately impacted women both in the point five million two point five million women workforce, and people say this is setting us back decades. Well, I think if it continues, that's exactly the case, because why did they leave. Well, some lost their jobs, but some couldn't keep their jobs because they had no childcare.

The schools were not open. Uh. There was a crisis uh that women faced in our country and around the world between their work lives and their family lives and personal responsibilities. And it was a huge disruption to the involvement of women in the paid workforce. UH. We've seen a lot of evidence of increased intimate domestic violence with and families in other parts of the world. We've seen an increase in child marriage because you know, economies shut down,

families didn't have money. They were back to you know, offering their daughters uh into marriage as child brides. So we know that there's going to be um a steep curve coming out of this pandemic. UH. And a lot of people talk about how, oh my gosh, the economy is gonna take off like it did over the after

the last huge UH influenza break in nineteen eighteen. So we had the Roaring twenties coming out of what was a two year uh struggle and at that time, and I think there will be um a burst of economic activity, but I think we have to watch carefully as to whether that includes women being able to get back on their feet economically, get back into the workforce and be supported.

And I'm thrilled that finally people are talking about caregiving as a part of the economy, not as a family related service, but as deeply interconnected with our economic prosperity. And I'm hoping that whatever comes of the infrastructure debate in Washington, that it includes a recognition that childcare and the kind of supporting through paid family leave that we don't have in our country and a broad scale the only industrialized nation that doesn't happen, it doesn't mandate it. Yep.

And I think, you know, it's going to be interesting, Katie, to see whether the shock of the pandemic wears off quickly without much learning from it. Uh so we go back to our old ways. We don't invest in public health, we don't invest in science and research, we don't invest in the caring economy. Or whether people will finally say, you know what, we can't let this happen again, because sure enough every scientist says, you know, there's all kinds

of crazy. You know, virus is out there in the animal population, and most likely another will jump to us, So let's get ready. Yeah. I mean, I can't believe we're still talking about this, you know, um and and and I don't know what it'll take to move the needle to kind of have this kind of a similar reckoning that we've seen in other social issues, because I think, uh, for whatever reason, it just doesn't seem to break through.

But maybe maybe this will shake some people up and make the need for uh, you know, paid family leave and childcare and also just attitudes about the division of labor in the phone. You know, a lot of that can't be fixed by policy. It has to be fixed by attitudes and behavior. Melinda Gates, as you know, said women do an average at like seven more years of child wearing and house work duty and just the business

of taking care of a home than men do. I do think I don't know about Mark and Chelsea, but I do think that this generation of parents, now these are obviously in a certain subset of privileged people, but they're starting to understand that if it doesn't take a village to raise the child a child, it definitely takes a mother and a father. Well, we could, we don't want to necessarily get into a traditional nuclear family, but it can't all fall on the working woman to do

the additional amount of work that it takes raising a child. Amen. Amen, sister Katie, right, preach right. And I do think there is um a recognition and even a little bit of movement in the right direction when it comes to sharing labor around the house and particularly with respect to child wearing.

But I want to go back to what you said about whether or not this is going to make an impression, and it really it's going to depend upon how people talk about America's future, what kind of future we want to have together. And I've become increasingly convinced over the last year while I've had a lot of time on my hands that we need we need a new American story that includes everybody, um and gives you know, proper respect to everybody's role in our society, like the essential workers.

What would we have done without people showing up to work in our hospitals, showing up to work in our grocery stores and our pharmacies and all the other essential services that they performed, and so it's incumbent upon all of us, but particularly people not only with a voice, for people who are in the public arena to be talking about that new future we want. So if you take paid family leave, I mean opposition to it has always been, you know, that will undermine the family. Uh,

nobody's business from her business or business. And why should people without children be taxed to help people with children? I mean, all of these kinds of arguments. Well, I think if you've got uh smart uh political leadership and public voices out there saying, I think we just now learned how interconnected we really are, and it is about helping everybody because it's in everybody's interests that we do.

So we're just going to have to tell a different story because the old story is being just so distorted and undermined, and for good reason in some areas, but also for nefarious reasons by people who you know, want to turn the clock back or people who want to ignore everything that happened in the past. I mean, there's a middle ground here about Yes, are we a perfect nation?

Absolutely not. Have we accomplished a lot that we should be proud of and build on absolutely yes, So how are we going to do that together and go forward from there? I don't even necessarily want to go back to two thousand sixteen, but just listening to you and your common sense rhetoric and I don't even want to call it rhetoric, but um, you know, views I think I would be so bitter about two thousand sixteen, Hillary,

and so angry and look look what we got. Um, have you been able to kind of I know you wrote a book, but but still do you do you still kind of wake up and think what the hell happened? How could this happen? I am still so pissed, I because I don't know. I'm not a very generous person, and I would be so bitter. I just would. Well, I certainly have those moments when I just have to either figuratively or literally smack my forehead, like you know,

how did this happen? Uh? And every day that goes by and we learn more, and I think eventually, Katie, a lot more will come out. I mean just in this past week we learned what I assumed, and I think most fair minded people did that. You know, the Trump campaign was sharing their polling with the Russians. Now, why would they do that. They were doing it because they were targeting, and they were very um clearly targeting based on polling and other analytical information from Cambridge Analytica

and others too. Discourage voters, suppressed voters, change voters minds. We know all of that, and we're gonna find out more. Um. I try really hard not to go down that rabbit hole because I did write a book, and obviously I've moved on with my life except to try to understand what are the lessons. And so when the campaign was upon us starting in you know, nearly every Democrat running, not all, but nearly every Democrat either came to see me in person or called me to talk with me.

And you know, I tried to you know, alert them, uh to the disproportionate impact that social media has in favor of the right wing the Republican Party, their associates, and how they had to be constantly monitoring that. It kind of took us by surprise, to be honest. I mean, you know, we learned in you know retrospect um all of the lies and the crazy stories and everything that

we're going was going on, particularly on Facebook. So I tried to alert all of the campaigns, and I had some really good conversations with a number of the candidates. I also tried to underscore how important it was, especially when we had flipped governorships and secretaries of state in

the election to zero in on voter suppression. Uh. So I've tried to put my own um learning uh and my disappointment from what happened in to work on behalf of causes and candidates that I, you know, support, because as I say, I don't even think we have a full understanding yet. I want to see the unredacted Mueller report.

I want to see additional intelligence like what we learned when the Russian agent Columnic was sanctioned just this past week by the new Treasury Department about what the Russians were doing. I want to keep digging into the connections with Cambridge Analytic Wiki leaks and others, because because people listening to this right now are going to be like, give it up, woman, No, it's all about the future. It's all about the future because we are under constant

cyber attack. Our government and all of our agencies are, our businesses are, individuals are, and our political system has been uh. And you know, if people are willing to give up our freedom and our sovereignty. Fine, you know, it's okay if that's what they want. I think that would be beyond dreadful mistake. However, do you think do you think Hillary that that Putin had something or has

something on President Trump? Do you think it was a larger sort of desire to um up end confidence and democracy or do you think it was a craven desire on the part of the Trump campaign to win at any costs, or was it a confluence of all these things.

I think it was a confluence. I think that uh, you know, Putin and as I write in my book about the election what happened, understood a few years ago that he couldn't compete economically, he couldn't compete strategically, but he could compete tactically with the United States, both in its you know it's nearby regions like Ukraine, but also

in uh cyber warfare. And there were you know, there were documents written by h Russian military planners basically laying this out and it was designed to upend confidence in our democracy, to make us distrust each other, uh, to inject even more divisiveness, and that that was a strategy that was going to, you know, make the United States weaker. Uh, well,

it's worn't it has worked. And the idea that there are, unfortunately people in public life, you know, leading with Trump who for whatever reason, identify with Putin, identify with his um approach to governing and his ruthlessness towards the press toward political opposition, is very surprising to me, and especially since most of it's coming from the Republican Party that used to have a much more skeptical view about authoritarianism, or a leader who believes he can accomplish more through

division than than uniting exactly. Yeah, well, that that is his strategy obviously. Yeah, let's let's talk about um. Just one thing that happened, which I actually I'm embarrassed to say I hadn't really thought about this or observed it until I was preparing for this podcast. But it's something that you've talked about recently following the election, was the

so called erasure of Hillary Clinton. And I was shocked that you were not on the list of honorees for the two thousand seventeen Women's March protesting Trump, an event that was in large part inspired by your presidential run and loss. How do you explain that? Oh, I don't. I don't even try to explain that, UM, because you're right at it. The idea generated with people who had supported me. But it turned out fine. I mean, it was the biggest global protest in history. And but it

must be galling on some level a little bit. I mean that that stuff doesn't bother me. I mean, you know, UM, a lot of people, uh, a lot of people were really upset by the election. They still are. I mean, I'm constantly reading UM how people are still unresolved and and mournful about it. UM. And you know, I think that there is in human nature as well as body politics. I mean, we don't want to look back. We want to move forward, and so how do we best move forward?

My only caveat to that is move forward learning the lessons of the past, or we are doomed to repeat them.

And that's what I've tried to stay focused on. You have been watching very carefully how Kamala Harris, Vice President Harris is being covered, and you're seeing some of the same sexist tropes that UH many people talked about in UM two thousand eight and two thousand sixteen, and I'm curious, how does the repetition of all these tropes ultimately frame women as the other and and how can we make people more aware of the you know, the the impact

of really years of cultural conditioning. I've studied this a lot, implicit bias, how our brains are wired to make connections, and how it's very hard to shake these perceptions with all the incoming images and and uh, you know, messages we received from the time, you know, from the time we're infants. And um, do you still feel that that coverage of of at this point, our first female vice president is being affected by all of this? Still in

I think it is. But again, I really believe that, um, the election of Vice President Harris was such a turning point in our history. Um, there are those who are still living in the past, who use stereotypical typecasting, who are unable to really embrace this enormous political historic event. But I think a lot of the uh negative coverage

now is more focused from the political partisan opposition. I do think that the so called mainstream press and others have learned some lessons from what I went through in I think they're more aware and and there are more people uh on like broadcast television, cable television, UM on

online who call others out. So I think a lot of the opposition or the you know, the gendered uh negative language that is being used towards the vice president is wrapped up in partisan political ideological disagreements, which you know, that's something that unfortunately we have to live with. That's part of the political system. But I think that at least so far, and I'm thrilled about this, UM, she's had a much fairer UM press coverage than might have

been the case for eight or twelve years ago. I think some of that has to do with all the factors you mentioned, also representation, and I think that's really very much the result of the me too in times of movement, and you and I have also witnessed a seismic shift in how sexual harassment, sexism writ large. UM. You know, I think all those things have been viewed thanks to you know, those hashtags, and what have you taken away from these movements? And and looking back, would

you have done anything differently? You know, I think it's it's an incredibly significant evolution, and it's always difficult to look back because you know, I think you and I entered the workforce at such a different time, and the idea that uh, you know, we we we're going to be able to uh uh dismiss or object to every you know, sex sexist, misogynistic comment that was made to us.

And you know, for me in a courtroom or a lawyer setting for you in a you know, TV studio or broadcast booth, whatever, it just was not on the radar. I mean, it just you know, you sucked it up and you kept going. You just had a view that you were lucky to be in the position you were in, and you were going to make the most of it. And yeah, these guys were idiots and they but you were not going to let it, you know, knock you

off course. And and I think what's been really huge change and all to the good, is that younger women, you know, said to themselves, after watching the struggles of their mothers or their grandmothers, or their ants, or they're big sister sters. No, if more of us speak out, if we have a hashtag, if we call it for what it is, there is strength in numbers. You don't have to deal with this on your own. Um. So, I I think that It was a sea change, in

part because social media enabled it. You know, you couldn't get on TV and say, you know, Joe Smith is a total sexist pig, but you could get on social media and you were free to say that and other people could chime in. So the combination of a new understanding of empowerment and agency combined with social media, um made it all possible. And aren't aren't we you know,

aren't we lucky? I've learned a lot from my daughters about this, and you know, and twenty nine, even writing my book, you know, I talked about in the nineties, in early two thousand's how you dealt with inappropriate behavior by laughing it off, Like there were all these different strategies you'd have to employ. And Ellie said to me, why why is it up to the woman to figure

out how to deal with this? Well, because often you were the only woman, right, I mean, I remember when I was working a hundred years ago for Jimmy Carter in his presidential campaign. I was in Indiana working on get out the vote, and the the groups that were going to help with get out the vote, uh, we're not, you know, doing what we wanted them to do. So we we said we're going to have a meeting. And

I was the only woman at the table. They were probably, if I remember correctly, like nine men, and uh, you know I I was with my talking points and I said, look, you know, we need we need measurements, We need to know what you're doing. We need to you know, of reporting an accountability. And literally a man reached across the table grabbed me by my turtleneck and just twisted it around and said, you don't tell us what to do and then let it go. Now what was I you

know what I mean? I had a job to do, try to get Jimmy Carter elected. That was those were in the days when he thought he could carry Indiana. Um and you know, none of these other men thought there was anything wrong with this guy threatening me and and telling me that. You know, I had no business telling them, as a representative of the Carter Mondale campaign what they were expected to do. Well, what was my remedy? You know? I mean, so so I understand you know

your daughter's my daughter? Young women? Who are you know? Now? We had no outlet. You know, if if if social media had been around at that time, I could have immediately gone on Twitter or Facebook or whatever and said, there's a big problem in Indianapolis because the men there don't want to listen to a woman tell them what they needed to do to get out the vote. But that was it, you know, so circumstans know that everything is kind of converged in a way that makes it

possible for these other voices to be heard. We're going to take a short break, but when we come back, we're talking about policing in America, something that seems to be in the headlines every single day. What is the solution that's right after this, I'd like to move on to the killings of black men and women, recently a sixteen year old girl in Columbus, Ohio. I think these have brought the movement for racial justice in policing to

a boiling point. It's a very explosive situation. And before we just sort of talk about solutions, because I want to focus on solutions, I just wanted to hear your reaction when I'm sure you were glued to news about the Derek Chovin Shovin uh verdict, where you surprised, where you relieved. To help take me back to that moment

and what you were feeling. I was relieved, Katie. You know, um, right before the verdict, I was actually doing a zoom seminar with students at Georgetown University, and you know, we were talking about all sorts of issues, and I said, you know, within the hour, we're going to get the verdict in the Derek Chouvin murder trial. And I said, you know, I haven't practiced law in a long time, but I watched you know, practically all of the trial, and the evidence is overwhelming and I can only hope

and pray that the jury will follow the evidence. But I had my doubts. I was, you know, like a lot of other people, concerned that other factors would weigh more heavily. So when the verdict came in with guilty uh convictions on all three counts, I was deeply relieved.

I thought that the Attorney General of Minnesota, Keith Ellison, the prosecutorial team that he put together presented one of the best prosecutions I've ever seen, and particularly given the fact that the defendant had been a police officer at the time of the incident, the way that they artfully said this is not about what the police did. This

is about what Derek Chauvin did. Uh. They really did all they could think of to do to preempt all of the doubts people have about well, what will it mean for my my future safety and the safety of my family and my community if we start telling police officers that they can't do things and then you know, holding them criminally liable. So relief, huge relief, um was my overwhelming response. And again I would just underscore how it was technology in the hands of ordinary citizens that

made that possible. If this had not been recorded, if this had happened at night somewhere that there were no bystanders, there would not have probably even been a prosecution. But forcing the world to watch that nearly ten minutes uh strangulation UH of Mr Floyd meant nobody could look away. Similarly with what just happened in columbu there's also video that has made just the biggest difference imaginable in whether

or not we can hold police accountable where they should be. Yes, but there was video with Rodney King, and there was a very very different outcome. So I think the video, I think you're totally right that that has been absolutely that that is the most irrefutable evidence. But it's been more than that, hasn't it. It's been an awakening of this happening time and time and time again, so many times without the benefit of video tape to memorialize the incident.

I think the Rodney King example is a very uh useful example because the video was almost an isolated incident. Right. What we have now is several years of video, and we have too many cases that have gotten uh to the public attention, whereas before they used to be pretty

much swept under the rug um. So I do think that it is fair to say that the number of cases in quick succession that did have some public airing where people stepped forward and said I saw it, or here, I even have a cell phone video of it, just became an aggregate too much to ignore that the George Floyd case prompted such an outpouring because it was so egregious.

I mean, the look on Chauvin's face, you know, his hand in his pocket when the defense lawyer tried to imply that, you know, Chauvin was worried because of people gathering on the sidewalk. I've never seen a worried person have their hands in their pocket. You know, there was just so much about that that was emblematic of a behavior that had to be held accountable. So what can be done about policing in America? I mean, you we

have Columbus, we have what happened in Minneapolis. Um, I'm just curious with their what I think thirty states have passed a hundred and forty laws. Uh, what how do we solve this? I mean, yes, it's systemic racism, but is it training? Is it not getting the right caliber of people? And I do believe that in some ways police officers are I don't want to say victims, but are the result of systemic racism and the kind of condulstual cultural conditioning that we were talking about earlier. I mean,

how do we fix this? I think defund the police from a branding perspective strikes fear in the hearts of people. So to you think we've got to come up with

some solutions, what are they? Well, that is the most important question, Katie and I honestly believe that despite the terrible pattern of police um killings of unarmed people, that we were beginning to have a sense of what could be done in the Obama administration you know, after the killing of Michael Brown and Ferguson Missouri, UH, President Obama put together a policing commission. It had advocates that had

experienced police officers, criminologists, others. They came up with a set of recommendations UH, and the Justice Department and local attorneys generals and others were I think taking that seriously becaus no one wants to paint every police officer as a bad person. That's just, you know, ridiculous. That's not the way that this needs to be addressed. There needs to be a focus on recruitment, promotion, training, accountability, all

of that. UH. And there are good ideas out there, but unfortunately, during the four years of the Trump administration, you had a Trump with a president, you had someone who basically told the police they could do anything they wanted, you know, rough them up, you know, knock them around, you know, basically shut down the Justice Department as being the vehicle for trying to work with local departments to

implement changes. So I saw where the new Attorney General, Merrick Garland UH is going to be looking at policing in Minneapolis or in Minnesota because we had that recent killing when the officer said she reached for taser, pulled out her gun, shot a guy for another or traffic stop, which you know, is something that we got to take a hard look at. So I am actually hopeful that with UH a new attorney general and administration who wants

to work with the police. You know Joe Biden, who I've worked with for a very long time as first Lady, as a senator, as Secretary of State, when he was Vice president, he was a huge supporter of police. He used to get all kinds of awards from the Fraternal Order of Police. He used to go to every one of their you know, banquets and ceremonies. He has a deep understanding of the importance of good policing. But I think he also has a deep sense of responsibility to

try to fix what is clearly broken. So I'm actually hopeful that that can happen. Do you think the Democratic Party has become too woke for America or do you think that's an okay thing? And in some ways are we hopelessly polarized? And should we stop worrying about that now?

I I don't want to stop worrying about polarization, but I want to put the responsibility where it mostly belongs, and that is on the Republican Party, because they have become almost a caricature of a far right, white supremacy UH driven organization that tries to upend our elections, which

pledges fealty to an authoritarian want to be so. I think that if I'm looking at where we are politically in our country right now, I am deeply worried that we have one political party that has thrown its lot in with the worst conspiracy theorists and the most outlandish lies about not just their opponents politically, but about so much that goes on in our country, and the Democratic

Party it still is a much bigger tent. You know, there are you know, people from you know, right to left, within the center left of the has it gotten to progressive to appeal to sort of moderate Democrats who may not be ready for defunding the police. That's not a policy of the Democratic Party. Let me quickly point that out. Are there people who are either in or associated with the Democratic Party who UH have touted that. Yeah, but that is a small, absolutely minimalistic position. I think the

party has been kind of tarred by that phrase. I don't think I don't think so. I think that people who uh promote that are such a small part of not just the Democratic Party but obviously of the society. That's not really indicative of where the you know, the center of the Democratic Party is um And so I think the Democrats have to be very clear about what the bulk of the party stands for, what individual candidates

stand for. But I think the real danger to our country right now is from the Republican Party, which has refused uh to uh stand up to the craziness that is uh promoted by Trump and his allies. And it's only getting worse, and it is aided and embedded by you know, a whole network, Fox Network and other you know, you know baby networks that are coming to the forefront. You know, the Democrats have nothing like that. The ecosystem that the Republicans have built, and that is self reinforcing.

UM is I think a very big dane you're and it is the source of so much of the polarization. If you can't look at the facts about this election and yes, disagree with the outcome, be sorry that your guy didn't win, but say, yeah, you know, we had all these states and they all did these tests, and they had to you know, certify the election, and we had all these lawsuits. No, no, we still want to

overturn the election. I mean, that's tinpot dictatorship stuff. So I'm much more worried about what's happened to the Republican Party right now. Hillary Clinton, thanks so much for for talking to us about all these issues. No one more fascinating to discuss them with than you, and and we will will continue the conversation Katie another time, either with or without a mike. Yes, we will. I look forward to that. Thank you, Thanks so much, Hillary. Take care.

A gigantic thank you to former Secretary of State, presidential candidate, an all round baller badass, Hillary Clinton. You can catch her podcast, you and me both on I Heart Radio or wherever you get your podcasts. Next Question with Katie Kurik is a production of I Heart Media and Katie Currik Media. The executive producers Army Katie Curic and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements, Adriana Fasio, and Emily Pinto. The show is edited and

mixed by Derrick Clements. For more information, about today's episode, or to sign up for my morning newsletter, wake Up Call, go to Katie currect dot com. You can also find me at Katie Curic on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,