Groundbreaking journalist Charlayne Hunter-Gault on chronicling — and making — history

to integrate the school. Her career took her to some of the most respected media outlets in the country, including The New Yorker, The New York Times, and the PBS News Hour, But as one of the few black journalists reporting for a largely white audience, she knew she had to do more. So she made it her mission to cover, in her words, black people in ways they were rarely portrayed in the media, in their full humanity. Her new book, My People, Five Decades of Right being about Black lives,

is a collection of many of her writings. Here's our conversation. It's a huge honor to have you, Charlene, and I'm excited to talk to you about this book because when I think about your reporting through the years, I think how your work really so well reflects where we are as a country and how we've evolved or we haven't evolved through the decades. And I'm curious why you thought it would be helpful to put this collection of your

reporting of over the last five decades together. Now, well, it's been a little bit of time putting it together, but we've had some challenges for a little bit of time. And one of the things I noticed is that while it seems as if we are getting more representation by people of color on the air, um, we still have a bit of a ways to go to get good

equal representation of all people, especially people of color. And I also think that as we have some today some opposition to teaching black history, I think that I'm hoping that this book will help people who are in that arena to appreciate that black history can be positive. And part of the problem is that over the years, we haven't had enough good quote unquote coverage of people of color for people to understand why it's important to have

good representation of people of color in the media. And I'm just hoping because I'm willing to talk to anybody about this, and so I'm hoping that this book will in fact help people who are having issues with black history to stop stop having issues. But it's it's been so weaponized, hasn't it, And I think people don't even necessarily it's sort of I always say, people have opinions

without portfolio. They don't even understand the nuances and the complexities of the topic about which they're speaking or opining. And I hope that people who may be in that category, who have misrepresented critical race theory or think that talking to black about black history is designed to make white people feel guilt, shame and bad about themselves, that that they are able to be open to a sensible conversation about what we're really talking about. You know, I'm happy

to have that conversation. And also I want to say, as I've been saying, that we have to be very careful about generalizations because from the beginning of time, our time here in America, we've had white people involved in our struggle, that is the struggle of black people for equal opportunity, and some have died for us. And again, I hope to make that clear as I talk to people, as I go around the country with the book, I want to talk to people who may not see things

through the same lens as I do. But I'm willing to talk to them, and I'm willing to I'm hoping that they want to talk to me because I think that we can get somewhere. I really do not. Maybe that's the p K that is the preacher's kid in me, but um I I still feel that we can make a difference if we share our stories and if we are willing to talk to people who don't necessarily agree

with us. I haven't had too much of that, but I don't know if you remember, but when I was in South Africa covering apartheid, one of the things that was important to me was to talk to the people who was who were a part of the apartheid system, so we could get into their heads and maybe they could get into well, not necessarily my head, because I wasn't giving my opinion, but I was asking questions that

may have indicated what my opinion was. But it worked out and they were not hostile, and so I really do take from that and other experiences that I've had with people who don't always see things the same way. I'm hoping that this book will help us keep on that track. Why why do you think we've lost our ability to have those conversations, to basically sit with people from different backgrounds, different sort of circumstances, different lenses, and

actually kind of listen to each other. Because you know, Charlene, I just don't think that happens anymore. Well, we have media now that promotes uh difference and and and negatively when it comes to the people I've written about, and also black history. I'm not sure how that came about, but I have a thought now that you've asked that question. You're so brilliant with your questions all. You're so nice, Charlene.

I just, Charlene, I'm just asking what you know. I mean, it's it's it's what I what pops into my head, and you know, trying to trying to come up with solutions for some of this stuff. Well, you know, one of the things I've done on the news hour PPS News Hour is do a series on conversations about race and people who have come up with solutions and they are out there, and I just think that, you know what, there was a time when we had three channels, and

sometimes I wish we could go back to that. I know, I know, but you know I was on this um Disinformation Commission with Rashad Robinson and a Color of Change. And you know, whenever I would would be nostalgic about the good old days, he say, you know, Katie, those days had very few opportunities for for people of color, you know, And so um, I I feel the same way, because it felt like it could be controlled in terms of the editorial veracity and the content of things, but

in terms of opportunities. Um that that they weren't necessarily the good old days. Well, I think that far too many people today are getting their information from Twitter, right, and and and other vehicles that require minimum wordage and not a lot of thought. I mean, I went on Twitter this morning and well it was not what I hope it could be. But I talked to a very educated, intelligent woman the other day and she was complaining about something going on in the country, and I said, well, what,

what what do you want? Who do you watch on television? I don't watch television anymore. And I think a lot of people have just gotten turned off, but we can't. You know. It comes out of civil rights movement that I grew up with. And I'm just I tell people I don't feel no ways tired. That's a phrase from from the civil rights movement. But we've got to figure out better ways of communicating with people, because, as you know, a lot of our local newspapers are dying, even our

black newspapers are dying. And that's inexcusable because in spite of the economic situation that has gone on for a number of years, there are people with money, and people with money who could have influence with that money if they used it to those ends. So, you know, I think maybe some of my wealthy friends are going to be upset about that, but I think that's the way to go. We've we've got to figure out how to communicate in a in a positive way, even with people

who don't agree with us. And I just think if we could sit down with them in quiet spaces and talk, I think it could make a difference. I would like to share some of my stories with people who are now saying they don't want this history taught in schools. I would like to go there and and talk to some of those people. I mean, our information has been

so deleted from everything. I mean. I was at a school in Sarasota, Florida, predominantly black, and a predominantly black professor had invited me, and I had mentioned, uh, the Brown decision, the Brown Versus Board of Education decision which outlawed sept but equal in schools, And on the way out to the car, this lovely young black woman teacher walking with me, and she said, can I make a confession? I said, of course, And I thought she's gonna tell

me something. Really, you know, sexy, she said, I myself black woman who grew up in Mississippi, and she must have been in her late thirties early forties. She had never heard of the Brown decision. Now that's inexcusable. Come on, wow, yeah, it's it's really It says something about our education system and how it needs to be fixed as well. Absolutely,

I could not agree with you more. But when it comes to the media, I was just while you were talking, pulling up something on my phone which I saw earlier this morning that said Americans distrust in the media. Is that a record high? As for the first time ever, the percentage of Americans with no trust at all in the media is higher than the percentage of those with a great deal or fair amount combined. According to a recent Gallop, Pole did that make you cry. Oh, it

just broke my heart. But I know I'm not surprised. And I think, as you know, News Hour is one of the last uh you know, news programs. I mean, I guess the evening news, but those are so short twenty two minutes. But where they're sort of haven't been co opted by the left of the right, right right, and uh and they're doing a good job, and they've

even become more diverse. Um and and you know, they've always been committed to what Jim Lera used to say, you know, give people good information and they'll do the right thing. Yeah, but we're challenged today about how to get that good information to people because not everybody like you is tuning into the News Hour right when we come back, Charlene recalls her first harrowing few days at

the University of Georgia. Well, let's talk a little bit about your career for people who are not as familiar with your extraordinary body of work. I know that you love Brenda Star as a girl, and so did I. I loved Brenda Star. I used to and and I I used to love her clothes I don't know, almost a little girl. And but that you know. Did you know, because I think it only became a known recently that the person who created Brenda Star was a woman. I didn't,

but it was. It was it was during those years when there was degregation of you know that affective women as well as people of color, and so she went. I think it was by a pseudonym, but she sure did create. And you know, once I here's what was so wonderful about that when I told my mother in a segregated town and society that I wanted to be like Brenda Star. She didn't said, oh no, that's not what a little black girl could do in this time. She said, very casually, okay, if that's what you want

to do. And that inspired me. And then I let your mom, by the way, yes lord. And then I went to an all black school that was, you know, didn't have the same things that the white schools had,

but they had our history. And that's when Ida B. Wells became my second role model, because Ida B. Wells was a black journalist back in the days of segregation, and yet she she worked as a journalist and she worked as an activist trying to bring about the promise of our constitution and democracy So I had a black woman and a white woman who were my inspirations, and I'm very proud of that and grateful for it. I wonder why there has never been a biopic of Ida B. Wells.

I don't know. You know, that's something that we can do. We want to help me out. Sure, Sure, let's get as an actor and a director in California. He's always looking for stones. I'll ask him and say, this is this is territory that needs to be covered and tackled. Well, your mom encouraged you, and then of course she were one of the first two students to integrate the University of Georgia, and you've volunteered to be that person. Is

that something your mom encouraged you do to do as well? Charlene, My mom supported it, but I was encouraged to do it by some very progressive black men in Atlanta. M. Carl Holman was one, you may know that name, and there were it was a group of activists black men, one of the doctor and I forget the others right now, but they were all very progressive people and they felt

that in Georgia. I think it was maybe nineteen fifty nine and the brown decision was five or six years earlier that it was time for Georgia to step up. So they came to my high school and asked the principal for two top students. And Hamilton and I were good friends, but we were also competitors. And so when they, you know, the principal set set for us because we were first and second in our class, and we said,

of course, And so they took us down to Georgia State. Well, here's how our history created armor for us, armor in our minds, hearts, brains, everything. Because Hamilton's was I have to admit looked at the curriculum. I had looked at it too, but he was the first to speak, and he said, this doesn't have what's gonna prepare me for what I wanna do. I want to be a doctor, and I don't like this curriculum. And then I said, yeah,

me too, and then he went on. He stepped out on the deck of the school and looked north and pointed and said, I want to go there. Well, that was you g A and Athens, Georgia, and it was um. The reason the men sort of hesitated was because they didn't know anybody in Athens and the way down there was through places where ku Klux klaners had headquarters and things. But in the end they figured out how to protect us,

and that's how we got there. Three days after you arrived on campus, students rioted outside your dorm room, and in fact, one of them even threw a brick through your window. What do you remember about that night? I remember being surprised, being a black Southern girl brought up in the A. M. E. Church. I was first upset because the brick caused the rocks caused the glass out of my window to get all over my good clothes,

which I hadn't had time to unpack. And then the house mother came and said, you know, the Dean is on the way here to suspend you for your own safety. And the tear gas that ostensibly had broken up the riots outside was still looming in the air. And so the next day when I got back to Atlanta, taken by the state patrol, Hamilton and I um, I was asked by a reporter how scared was that. I said, scared, wasn't scared and I hadn't focused on it, but I wasn't,

And so they said why not? And that's where the p K and me comes out because my mom used to send my dear mother used to send me to my father's parents, who were a preacher. And I said, my grandmother was the saint and she used to teach me Bible verses every day. I didn't want to learn them because I wanted to climb the mango trees and run around and be a tom girl. But um uh, the verse that clearly was in my head. And I've looked at pictures of myself and I said, yes, that's

what I was thinking. Yeah, though I walked through the valley of the Shadow of Death, I will fear no evil. That rod and that staff they comfort me all the days of my life. That was what was going on in my head. And I didn't even you know, it was so much a part of my psyche that I didn't even realize it. But I wasn't afraid. And you know, you look at some of the pictures that I have

my mouth on a Virgin Mary statue. You know, I have a lot of identities, and one of them is a p K, a preacher's kid who was taught all those things. And I still I did a book talk the other day with the Reverend Otis Moss, the third out of the Trinity United Church in Chicago, and we went.

Now he's a lot younger than me and and a brilliant minister, and we talked about the role of religion and and I think that while not everybody is into, you know, religion, I think there are lessons that we can all learn from and share and be protected by. I talked about our history as a suit of armor, and part of my armor was created by my sainted grandmother.

And I think that, you know, not everybody's going to be religious and go to church and all that, but I think their lessons for even people who don't believe in church and whatever else it's associated with, well, clearly

it gave you an enormous amount of strength. And I think in faith and and religion also you can find a life philosophy right that that obviously guided you through the years and became you know, incredibly important, gave you a foundation to face the many travails that that you've faced in your life. Even religion today is divided, and I've listened to some people on television, uh using religion

and what I find is a very offensive way. Well it's kind of been ever thus the right, Charlaine, I mean, you know, you know, distorting and twisting religion, and you know, causing all kinds of strife and wars, and you know, I mean, but the only way we can get past that is to do what you and I are doing right now and what you have done all of your career, which is to try as best you and I can to tell the truth. And and sometimes we make mistakes.

That's why in newspapers they have correction correction things, because we're we're human, and we do make stakes. But for the most part, I think we try to do our jobs and not make mistakes. And and and double checked and triple checked our sources. You were hired by the legendary editor of The New Yorker, William Sean after you graduated,

and you became the magazine's first black staff writer. You've said that you were committed to writing about black people in ways that really they were rarely portrayed in the media in their full humanity. Right. You know, It's just so strange to me that we think this was not that long ago, Charlene, and and and and yet and yet people were not writing about black Americans. This way, and and and where did that idea come from? Well, you know, I may not have thought about it quite

that way, but uh I did. And and the New Yorker, of course published some of the greatest writers of all time. I mean one of the heroes was J. D. Salinger. Uh and those, of course. But you know, you always look for openings where you can make a difference. And when I looked down at the very talented, wonderful writers like Calvin Trillon and Jared Jonas and so many others, I could mention Mary McCarthy and all of those. Uh, No one was really going into Harlem and spending time

with people. And I think the only way you can. I mean, you can go and cover a quick one day story and and do the who, what, when, where and how. But it's another thing to go in depth and present people. And you have to do those quickie stories. But nobody at as I can remember, we're really doing any in debt and they didn't have to be long to be in depth. But nobody was looking at black people the way I experienced in my daily life because I worked with among them and so and also I

wanted scoops, right, But that wasn't the main reason. It

turns out I was getting scoops. But you know, to go to somebody, to to to talk to somebody like Lewis Michel, a tiny little black man who had a bookstore, uh close to a hundred and twenty fifth Street and and and Lynux Not wasn't Linux Street and seven and and he was just a delight and he would entertain He was entertaining prominent black writers and even white writers who were coming there because he had one of the largest collections by and about black people, probably well, certainly

in New York, but maybe even in the country at that time. And he was just delightful. He's spoken couplets. And he was raised conscious too because in a very uh what shall I say, aggressive way, he used to say he's spoken couplets. And he used to say things like the white man's dream of being supreme has turned to sour cream. But you know it was it was,

you know, one way. You know we talked earlier about how you can communicate with people and get them to understand and accept what you're talking about, well, poetry, it is one way. All the Oh, I don't know how many white people would have liked that that couplet, but he had other couplets. And he also had this collection of books that white writers who were interested in looking at the black experience in black history would come there

and studied them. So we've had people who white people, black people, Asian people, all kinds of people who have been interested. Is just that it's been difficult. It was difficult up to a point to get those stories published. You later set up a Harlem bureau for the New

York Times, and and did you face much resistance doing that? No, I mean, the only it was I wouldn't call it resistance because Arthur Gelb was a wonderful city editor at the Metropolitan editor at the New York Times, and he was the one that was several black reporters already at the Times, and they had recommended to him that he talked to me because I was coming to New York.

I had journalistic experience with NBC and stuff, and so uh, he saw me, and one of the questions he asked, he said, okay, now, if you if I sent you to Harlem to cover a story about a black person man, I think he said, who had done something bad or who was in trouble. Would you be able to tell that story? And I said, I don't know. It would depend on what I found when I reported, because so many black people are wrongfully accused of things they didn't do,

so it requires some looking into Well. I guess the answer was okay, because he hired me and then a few years later he let me set up the Harlem Bureau. So you know, I owe that to him and all of the other editors who trusted me to do my job. Fast forward to your time the News Hour, and you write about an experience with a white guest who seems surprised that you actually were the one interviewing him and apparently said to you, I guess it beats being a hairdresser. Yes,

that was at the News Hour. And you know I said to myself, okay, be cool and respond, But you say here again, I had an opportunity to say, go to hell. But I also had an opportunity not to react and to open his mind right and to open his mind. So I think that while a little bit more pressure is put on some of us to represent as it were, um, that's our job, that's what we well, that's what I was born to do. I think, but

so many of us. That's our job, uh, not to react in a way that you know, further angers the person, but to try to help educate and do it in a gentle way. I don't I don't think that you know, a boxer, it's going to be the one to make the difference. Now, you see, here's the thing I mentioned

a boxer. Well, up until I started writing and and joining these news organizations, the people who got covered were people who were doing extraordinary things like Mom and Ali and and you know sports people are are actors or you know, people in unusual circumstances. Uh. But was their personal life being covered? No, And so that was part of again the motivation for me to do this book. Our people were not all prize fighters, winning prize fighters at that for that matter, but they were doing all

kinds of things, and I think it made them. The pieces that I was doing, I hope made them human because as I wrote about Africa and the way it was being covered years ago, it was all the four days death, disaster, despair, um and other things that uh, you know, we're negative, We'll be right back. What do you think about the whole debate that's going on in newsrooms. I would think, particularly at The New York Times, about the role of journalists in society and the role of objectivity,

if that even exists. I don't like objectivity. My computer is objective, although the day it had a problem getting my picture on your I've never liked that word. I like fair and balanced boxes. That's boxes motto. Yeah, fair and balance. Yeah. Well, I think it's true if you

practice it. Um. But I also I'm a big proponent these days of a coalition of the generations because I think that you're younger than me, and there are others younger than both of us, but there are some older than us, and I think that we need to be able to share our experiences with the younger generation and talk to them about our successes and how we how we achieve them. And if you want to take positions,

then get on an editorial board. Um. If you want to take positions, then find vehicles that allow you to give your opinion. But if you're gonna call yourself a journalist, then you have to adhere to the UH principles that make good journalists, and that is to you know, give people good information, so that again, as Jim Lara said,

so that they can make good decisions about themselves. You are not everybody, and you're communicating with a wide range of people, and I think you have to appreciate that as you go forward. I think that you don't want to if you tell the truth or be fair and balanced. I mean today you may show off some people, but I think that you can't allow that to to to inhibit trying to do the best you can with what

you have. I think that was Joe Lewis was doing the best you can with what you have, to give them good information so that they can do the best they can with what they have. And I think that we have to communicate with these young people, which I try to do every single day that I'm approached by one or another, and I'm I'm happy to have time to sit with them and talk about our profession and how we keep it true to its mission and calling. I think it's been very tough in the age of

social media. I see people trying to be fair and balanced and they're eviscerated by the left or they're eviscerated by the right because they're not reflecting the views of that particular segment of the population, and it is it is. I think that's why news and many outlets has become so bifurcated. You know, they they are are basically getting

affirmation instead of information. As a friend of mine, set viewers are good, and so I think it's extremely hard to be an old fashioned, if you will, journalist who's trying to delve into a topic in a way that even gives somebody who is on the other side a platform. And also, by the way, there's so many extremists out there. You do wonder if you know who you should be giving a platform too, Should you be interviewing election deniers who say, you know, again and again, despite everything to

the contrary, that the election was rigged. You know, it's it's it's hard to be an objective journalist, especially in today's you know, today's world, you know, speaking of the younger generation. I mean, I'm eighty, but I like to think I'm woke, yeah, and and so I just like to communicate with them and and and help create armor for them too, challenge, uh, when challenges is necessary and important. And to be sure, they're gonna be people whose minds

you will never change. But that's not our job. Our job, and and the other problem I'm though. The other problem I'm having with a lot of the UH newspapers especially and I'm not gonna name anyone, UH. The articles are just when they are up against social media, some of them and I won't say which ones unless you press me, but but some of them have gone in the opposite direction. Even I get exhausted and and often don't finish some

of these articles today in respected, respectable papers. But the articles go on and on and on, And I don't know what's caused that, because I'm not sure that's the best way to combat or go up against Twitter by writing five thousand word pieces that could have been seven hundred and fifty words. Now, when I sit down to write an article today or somebody, I tend to go a little bit over. But then I've fortunately had good editors who said, well, now what about this? Do we

really need this paragraph? Or can we sum this up this way? So you know, we hope for good editors who can who can help us. But I don't know what has caused this retreat from the seven hundred and fifty word piece that tells you in the opening what it's about, tells you in the second paragraph what you're gonna talk about in the piece, and then another five or six hundred words that gives you all you need

to be in especially well informed. That's just me. But um as I said, you know, given my years of experience as a journalist with very good editors, I just don't understand that trend. And that's interesting because yes, it seems to be working against you know, the prevailing winds and people with short attention spans. On the other hand, you know, you don't want to you do want to have deep, highly research reporting to right, but you just don't know who if it's reaching. But you can do

that in fifty words or fifteen hundred. But but you know, and the other thing is that when I worked with the New York Times, you had to tell if you're doing a newspiece, you had to tell in the first paragraph what the story was about, and in the second paragraph you had to expand on that, and then for another you know, five words open up more of that story. And there were also times when you did longer pieces

for the magazine or or so forth. But the competition is social media, and so somehow those among us who are concerned about informing people in a good way. I think I need to figure out the best way to compete with social media. The media landscape has changed so much. I'm sixty five, you're eighty, and when we started out

it was a very different ball of wax. And now, Um, as you said, social media is is dominant in some ways, and people are are creating their own echo chambers and and they're getting them, you know, through through their own sort of developing their own quote unquote communities, etcetera, etcetera.

Would you would you recommend going into journalism today And do you think you would have been as attracted to the profession today as you were those years ago when you were reading Brenda Star and telling your mom, Gosh, this is what I want to do. Mom. That's a tough question, um, because I don't know, Uh, it would

have depended, I guess on my experience. Um, you know, back in those days, I saw the need, uh too fulfill a gap in news coverage, a gap about our people, or or a gap that had not positive stories but necessarily but accurate stories about people of color. And and so I'm not sure, going back over my history if

that is something I would still like to do. But I guess the best answer I can give you is I don't see anything else I would want to do, and is it something you would You know, when young people say ms Hunter Galt, I want to be a journalist, what do you think? What do you say to them? I say, great, that's really good. How are you getting prepared?

That's that's what I say. And you know, when I was promoting this book before I had a publisher, I spoke with the head of a journalism UH college and he said, look, if what you have shown in this UH in this interview is what is going into that book, I hope that every journalism college in this country will use it for UH to teach their students. Now I'm not self promoting. Well, I guess that's what that amount of student, but I didn't say it. I'm quoting. I'm

quoting an editor. And then later I spoke to someone I won't say at which university, but he said, we are going to welcome this book for our young journalists. So there are people out there still in in in journalism colleges at the University of Georgia. I know they're doing that at other colleges like the one I just mentioned,

but didn't mention which college it was. So I think that there are leaders in the profession who people who have been in the profession or who or people who have studied the profession and have some historical sense of the role of journalists and journalism, and they are teaching young people. I met a young woman here on the vineyard the other day when I was doing an interview at the local television station. She's what about I think she told me she was twenty four, but she is.

She said, I'm following in your footsteps. And I cried. I mean I didn't cry, but I had tears in my eyes, which you know, amounted to almost crying. I was so proud of that. And one day I'm going to call her up because she's about to go to Korea where she wants to do some more work, and I'm gonna just sit with her and I'm gonna ask her, tell me, what what was it about me that impressed you? And do you see your attitudes about journalism among other

young people your age? And I think they're out there, they really are. It's just that in so many instances, they're finding fewer and fewer places to be good journalists. That's why I was thinking that maybe, you know, we need to create some new new outlets that that somehow bridge these divides. We need to have a more robust presence in quote unquote flyover States. We need to you know, bridge some of these divides and give people a place too to tell their stories. And I think trust can

be one back. But you know, right now, it's it's a it's a big challenge, isn't it. It is it is, But but we've always had challenges and we have overcome. And so I live in the zone of hope and never never giving up. And if you look back at our history, we've had some major challenges all throughout our

history and we have overcome. And so I think that's why it's important to be sure that our history is taught accurately, because it's in that history that you find the the encouragement to keep on keeping on, as they used to say, and I still say, I still say it to all right, listen, I still say keep on trucking. So but um, you know, I like, I like what

you said. I live in the zone of hope, and I'm going to think about that every time I get disheartened and depressed and feel that this country is just sort of sliding into despair and and and is that a point of no return. I'm going to remember what you said, Charlene. I live in the zone of hope. Thank you. And you can take me to dinner one night and I can give you some more of that. Okay, I would love that. Well, when you're in New York City, please let me know. Your book is called My People.

It's a compilation of all the incredibly important stories you've done through the years, a tremendous body of work that I think is an excellent blueprint for journalists today and for future journalists who want to go into our profession. Charlene, thank you so much for talking to us today. Look, thank you. You've inspired me to keep on keeping on great. Right back at you. Next Question with Katie Kurik is a production of I Heart Media and Katie Couric Media.

The executive producers Army Katie Couric and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements and Adriana Fasio. The show is edited and mixed by Derrek Clements. For more information about today's episode, or to sign up for my morning newsletter, Wake Up Paul, go to Katie correct dot com. You can also find me at Katie

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