Gretchen Carlson Takes Her Power Back

more women have come forward. The drip, drip, drip has become a day luge of sorts, and it's opened up a much broader cultural conversation about sexual misconduct in general, what so many women continue to face in the workplace. And you know, I've been talking about this, Brian, by the way, for a long time, because one of my first big stories as a national reporter was covering the

Clarence Thomas hearings. And I did the first interview with Anita Hill, and you think, wow, that was in the early nineties, and now here we are in two thousand seventeen, it's still happening. So we decided to continue the conversation and dive a little deeper with today's guest Gretchen Carlson

and you. You may remember that in sixteen, Gretchen filed a sexual harassment lawsuit against the then all powerful chairman of Fox News, Roger Ales, and she alleged that while she was an anger at Fox, Ales made sexual advances toward her and then fired her. After she brought it

to the network's attention, he was forced to resign. Gretchen got a report at twenty million dollars settlement, and since leaving Fox, she has decided to focus on advocacy rather than journalism, and she's out this week with a new

book called b Fierce, Stop Harassment and Take Your Power Back. So, because of her legal settlement, there's a lot that Gretchen wasn't able to discussed in terms of the specifics of her case, But we spoke to her about sexual harassment and assault as a problem that's getting worse, not better in this society, about the advice that she'd give to women, as well as her own story her earliest days in

the spotlight as Miss America. In fact, I think that's where Gretchen got the grace and grit required to really do something about her situation at Fox News. So we're having this conversation during a time when the hashtag me too has been flooding social media. You tweeted me to the night before we're taping this, Katie, and there's some

disagreement about what that actually means. Right to me, I think it it's basically an all encompassing hashtag that signifies that you've experienced sexual harassment or even worse, sexual assault. And for me, obviously working for thirty five years, I've had incidents of sexual harassment and the work place. I don't have to get into details. You're gonna have to wait and buy the book. I'm glad we could do

a little commerce in our intro here. We also, by the way, heard from many of you, so thank you so much to those who called in with your own stories of sexual harassment at work. We're gonna be sharing some of those calls during the break, so stay tuned for that. But first, here's Gretchen Carlson. Gretchen Carlson, I'm so excited to have you here in the studio. Brian is in Los Angeles and you're here on Gosh during

a crazy period of time. I think for the subject that you're talking about in your book, it seems to be a really pivotal moment in the national discourse when it comes to this topic. When you saw this Harvey Weinstein stuff unfold, what were your thoughts. I wasn't surprised, but I actually, in spite of the horrific allegations and revelations, I actually was optimistic because it said to me that more and more women felt secure and coming forward. And

that's the name of this game. You know. Unless we can encourage more and more women to have that kind of bravery, we're not going to get anywhere with this topic. And it made me realize that the fifteen months of work that I've been doing was possibly paying off, and that was incredibly um encouraging for me personally. Why weren't you surprised, Oh, because you know you've listen, you and

I were. We've been in the television business for a long time, and then we've always heard the same things about Hollywood and the casting couch and that kind of behavior.

But what I was surprised at when I first started putting together my book, or actually right after my story exploded, was all these women reaching out to me and what was surprising was that most of them, almost all of them, were not in television or Hollywood, and it made me realize that this is a pervasive epidemic in every profession, even female oriented professions like retail or flight attendants. So

that's why I say the Hollywood stories not shocking. What was shocking is how pervasive this issue has penetrated our culture and we've done nothing about it until no. So, Gretchen, your new book, Your Fierce opens I love that title, by the way, opens on the day after Labor Day of you had sued your old boss, the former chairman of Fox News, Roger Ales, for harassment and retaliation. Um, and this was the day that the news broke about your settlement with Fox. That's the opening of the book.

You're sitting in a nail salon and the news coverage starts rolling in. Can you describe that moment and what you were feeling. Yeah, So first day of school happened to be that same day. My husband and I have a tradition with our two children, twelve and fourteen, that we drive them to school, dropped them off, and then he and I would go into the city together because we both worked in the city for years, except this year. I had been fired, so I wasn't working, so that

in and of itself was a change. And I knew that this that this news was going to be coming out. I wasn't supposed to come out until I believe maybe ten or eleven am, but I got to the city early. I was actually had a haircut appointment of all crazy things, and so I thought, well, what should I do with this extra hour? So there was a nail salon nearby, and one of the person in New York Cities getting

their nails done at nine am nobody. So there I was in the nail salon all by myself and happened to be getting a pedicure, and the news started coming out on my phone and on Twitter and other social media, and tears were streaming down my face, not because I was sad, but because I was reading that the media was picking up on the apology and that meant so much to me. And I'm sure this woman who was helping me out was thinking I was nuts, you know, like, why is this woman crying on nine am on a

Tuesday morning or whatever it was. But it was just so overwhelming, because it really was emblematic of my entire fight because there I was by myself, and that's how I started the fight, was by myself, which was really scary. And I know in the early days, Gretchen, I remember when all this happened. It seems to me that, you know, one of the things I heard almost immediately was her show was canceled, you know, uh and and and it

was almost as if the victim blaming began instantaneously. Tell me about hearing things like that, and what that was like and how galling that must have been. Well, I was prepared for it because my attorneys had said that the you know, that they would come at me with a vengeance meaning a lot to people. Not that that makes it right, but um, I think I was prepared to take that on. I mean that was part of the courage building. This is not a process where you

just decide one day, I think I'll do this. This is something that takes immense courage and it's an excruciating decision for women because of exactly what you're talking about that you know you're going to be labeled a troublemaker. Not believed, he said, She said, culture called, you know, worse, the v word and and worse than that, and and

that your Christian will be destroyed. And it was so orchestrated by your former employer, right, I mean, it seems to me it was not just a comment here or there. It seemed to be almost like a political campaign in a way, kind of like, uh, what are you you know, opposition research? Right, Well, I can't comment on how they put their plan together, but I can just say that

overwhelmly on social media. You know, there were some people who were critical of me, but the hashtag stand for Gretchen went viral and actually that was really heartening to me and buoyed my spirits because there were some dark days and dark moments in the beginning there, with no

sleep and a lot of restless nights. In fact, Brian, as the lawyer in the group, you can ask Gretchen about just so we make it clear for our listeners what you can and cannot talk about when it comes to this situation, because I think we should be transparent

about that. So take it away, counselor Well, there's actually an interesting topic to explore because as part of your settlement, it's been publicly reported you got paid twenty million dollars, and in exchange for that, you agreed not to talk about aspects of your case. And so I wondered whether you considered not signing a settlement so that you could in fact share all aspects of this case or was that just never even on the table. Oh no, sure, I mean, and I got asked that question a lot.

But here's the reality that people don't know about. We as a society have decided that we solve sexual harassment cases usually in settlements or in forced arbitration, if that's in your employment contract. And here's the problem with both their secret and nobody ever knows any of the details, and the women cannot talk about what happened to them.

And so for me, if I hadn't gone down that path, I would have been forced into secrecy anyway, and nobody would have really ever then known about about my case. So the way I answer that is my complaint is public. You can google it if you want to find out all the details. I don't really need to talk about the details because I have been afforded the opportunity within that settlement to be able to talk about this issue.

And that's the way that I've been thinking for the last fifteen months is how do we move this forward. That's why I wrote the book Be Fierce, because how do I help people and move forward? And look, it's working. So that's why going back to the Weinstein revelations, I see that as a positive. I mean, they're horrific, but the reality is women and men are feeling more comfortable about coming forward. It really does feel like a watershed

moment to me in many ways. You know, Unfortunately, there have been other things in the past that have felt like watershed moments. And I want to talk to you in a bit, Gretchen, about what sort of safeguards or structural changes can be put in place that will really make a difference once and for all. But we want to talk a little bit about sort of you and how you got here. You grew up in Minnesota, Minnesota, did I say, right? Yeah? Sure, and you've had You've

had such an interesting journey from there. To hear it sounds like your parents were both pretty strict um by the book, and someone described your mom as a Swedish tiger mom, oh yeah, which I thought was so cute. What was life like you like for you as a child? Actually, I described her that way in my memoir, and she didn't really like it, but it was true. She sounds like quite the little powerhouse. And by the way, I shouldn't say little, she sounds like quite the powerhouse. Ye. Well,

that's where I learned how to be fierce. Uh. And I actually talked about this a lot in the book. That's why I dedicated a chapter to parenting, because I really believe that, you know, gaining courage in your life and and having perseverance and tenacity starts at a young age, and it's it depends on how you're reared. And so first and foremost, she told me every day I could be anything I wanted to be. I thought every kid

heard that, and I believed her. You know, she did have the caveat You're gonna have to work incredibly hard to get there. But that was a message that was ingrained in me. And so from an early age I built a lot of courage. Plus I was a really serious violinists, so I built incredible self confidence and courage from going out on stage and competing and performing and believing in myself. Because of that talent, nobody could take it away from me. Self disciplined to this is a

ridiculous amount. Starting at age six, you did an hour a day, and then when you got a little bit older, it was three hours a day, something like three or four hours. Yeah, I know. It was something that I obviously loved until I got to be a teenager, and then I realized that to really succeed at the level that I wanted to succeed, and I'd have to give up everything else in my life. So that's when I quit, which was pretty devastating news to my parents at age seventeen.

But it's it's disciplined that I still carry with me every single day, and it's the way in which I approach life that when you put time into something, you see that you get better at it. Well, and you quit that, but you you went on to Stanford and then you decided to compete to become Miss America. What what inspired you to do that? Yeah? Well I didn't actually decide to to try that. My mom actually tried

to encourage me to do that. She got a rosure in the mail on the pageant ironically, and it said in the fine print fifty per of a contestant's points are based on talent, and she called me up I was actually studying at Oxford at the time, and she said, oh my gosh, I found something that I think you should try. She said, it's half your points are talent, you have that, you know, this is something you should do. And I'm like, mom, are you nuts? This is not

on my radar screen at all? And I really had not watched pageants at all. It was a tomboy um so as I said, she's a very convincing person. Half your half your points or talent, but half your points or other things, you know, how you have baby suits and they had that part. I mean, so for me, as somebody who is ten years older than you are, it didn't take me long as a girl to realize pageants were just bullshit, honestly, and that they objectified women.

You know, it's nice at is talent, and obviously you're enormously talented, you know, much more talented than like people who play things with spoons or whatever, some of the other frenriloquist or whatever. And I'm just curious, like, was there something inside of you, Gretchen that said, you know what, honestly, this is not this is not for me, This is really not who I am, And this is not what I want to convey to other women. Yeah, I mean I felt that way. I guess more after the fact,

I went back to Stanford and took some feminism classes. UM, and I've always been a huge advocate for women. So you know, I guess you could argue that those two things didn't ALIGNE but you know, you have to also remember that it is a scholarship program. I want a lot of scholarship money. I paid for my entire last year of Stanford by myself based on my winnings from

Miss America. UM. I have been an advocate for a long time of getting rid of the swimsuit portion and for me, that was the toughest part because I'm short and uh, I really had to struggle to get myself into decent shape. So that was actually the most challenging part for me. And I don't necessarily see that as a negative, that you set a goal in front of yourself and and you go for it and you feel good about the end result. Would you want your daughter

to compete in a beauty count totally her decision. I don't believe at all in pageants for young kids. I mean, I shuddered to think these parents that are dress and their kids up and three and four and five and six and ten and twelve year olds. My daughter's fourteen. Now, she happens to be an exceptional pianist. If she wants to do it, I have no idea if she does or not. I'll have a conversation with her about it.

But you also have to remember, I'm the mom who never even told my kids that I was Miss America. And one day I was waiting for this day to come. And she came home from school when she was about eight years old, maybe nine. She said, mom, She said, somebody at school told me you were some America thing. And I said, ah, I've been waiting for this day. She said, well, Mommy, could I see you know the crown? And I said, well, yeah, let me see if I

can find it in my closet. So we went upstairs and I showed her the crown and she put it on. And then I had my gown in a shoe box and um and and I showed her that, and she she put it onto and we took pictures, and then that was that. I said, Mommy did this because mommy played the violin and you played the piano. And you know this is something mommy accomplished and it was the end of the story. And I don't even know if I've ever had the conversation with my son, to be

honest with you. Um So, it's not like I display my Miss American life at home or talk about it or I think my daughter should be a pageant person in any stretch of the imagination. Do they really use like preparation? H somewhere did that stuff? I'm from, Katie. Are there some tricks like preparation or isn't there something that you put on like a spray? I still wont without doing any of that craft. Um so. And yeah, I never believed in in doing that. Here's here's what

I learned from it, though. Uh. I learned guts from being Miss America and also how to speak publicly without any apprehension or nerves. I mean, I'll never forget. In the first week, I was at some huge event in Atlanta. Two thousand people thought I was just there to have dinner. Guy comes up to me after dinner before jissert. He goes, I just wanted to give you a five minute before your keynote. I said, excuse me, He said, yeah, you're keynote, I said, okay, I said, in how long would you

like me to speak? He goes, just forty five minutes. So I went in the bathroom with a cocktail napkin and a pencil that I borrowed from somebody else at the table, and I wrote down a couple of bullet points, and I went out and I gave a speech for forty five minutes. So you know, Lesson number one, always have three speeches in your back pocket. Lessen number two, My gosh, look at what I gained from that year of being put in those unbelievably adult situations at age two.

So it's not Pageants are not all bad, Katie. No, I know, I know. I think I'm just like I could never have entered one. Maybe I have pageant envy or something. But you know, you played the violin in the Miss America competition. So let's listen for a second, uh to Gretchen playing what were you playing? Gretchen Yan Gypsy airs, God Bless you, Zagunavis and a violin performance by Gretchen. Elizabeth Carl said, Miss Minnesota, you're a sucker for that vibrato, aren't you. Yeah, it feels like it

was yesterday, not really. By the way, you have a beautiful green bow in your hair, which I understand you made from the bottom of your dress. Is that true resourceful to ladies and gentlemen are frugal in Minnesota? I did, and the bow actually was falling out of my hair

while I was performing before millions of people. And I also a secret fact I had a hairpiece in and so I've been thinking to myself while I'm performing in front of millions of people and trying to win this thing, I'm thinking, Okay, this will be really awful if this green piece falls out and the hairpiece falls out, but will look like a whirl on the stage. So that's what was actually going through my mind as I was. Oh and before I went out to do the swimsuit competition,

I got my period. Oh lord yeah, Bryan Mosuh well sorry, it's more than more than I knew. Yeah, So I was like, anyone have any emergency help please. I had about two seconds to do the clothing change anyway, So these are all the things that make you a stronger person. Well, I have to say, you know, that kind of poise is unusual, because shortly after that they did play a funny joke on you. Gary Collins and Marianne Mobley, Uh

where you were on some NBC blooper show. They left, I guess the set of their talk show, and you were told you had to to stall and kind of talk about a satellite system I knew nothing about. I mean, the fact that you kept your act together was really I noticed. I wanted to say something else, right, Trust me, I wanted to say all those words while I was

standing up there. It was just I mean, I think gets worth anyone watching how I was so pitted out just watching you because I guess I'm thinking about all these really stressful moments. Yeah, this is what builds courage,

um and and character. But yeah, that was a week into being Miss America, and all I could think of is they're going to fire me from this job because I thought I was talking about its satellite system I knew nothing about in front of five thousand engineers in d C. And they probably knew everything about it, right, And Gary and Marianne got called off the set for emergencies, and then they said we're coming to you in five

four three two. Remember who knows absolutely nothing about the system, and you and I can appreciate this from live TV. And they go just just start talking, and I was like, about what, you know what? So I introduced myself. Hi, I'm glad to be back with you this morning. I'm Gretchen Carlson, the new Miss America and this is my second appearance here in Denver and it's been wonderful so far. And I gave my little Miss America speel and then I stopped, and he goes, oh no, no, keep going,

keep keeping. If you want to talk talk about the machine a little bit, whatever you can remember about it, just it doesn't matter, even if you don't know I Standwarches well. Today Gary, Gary and Marianne are supposed to be here with me, and they're going to be discussing the intricate details details about the system. My only directions are to press a few of these buttons. So this one on for fourteen minutes, and literally in my brain again, I'm thinking I'm going to be, you know, fired from

this job. And I have to say that, you know, life works in mysterious ways, and this is a great lesson for anyone about struggle and how you perceive yourself and how it can change on a dime. So when that actually aired, that's how I got into TV. I know someone saw you and thought. A couple agents saw it and they called me and they said, if you can do that, you can do TV. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be back soon with more from Gretchen and hear about her path into TV news

after her days as Miss America. But first a word from our sponsors and from you. Sexual harassment doesn't just happen to powerful people. It's not just committed by powerful people. It happens across industries, two people from all walks of life. So many of you called in with testimony of your own experiences, from big box store employees to auto plant workers.

Here's some of what you had to say. When I was seventeen, UM, I went for a job and the person interviewing me put his hand on my leg and robbed it and I did not accept job because of that. I was sexually harassed by the CEO of our company. I had told him my head had so much coffee that morning. I said, I can actually feel my insights vibrating and he said, oh really, I thought that Miss,

maybe a sex toy in your purse. When I accorded it to h R. HR came back to me and told me that I kind of uh participated in the conversation when my boss and I because we had become friends and he wanted to know if I had any friends that I could hook him up with that he could date. UM. So h R said that I had kind of instigated the conversation. Um. I was then fired two days later, and UM, yeah, and lost my job because of it. He was the assistant principal of my school.

I was the first year teacher. I was afraid to tell him no. I was a manager at one of the big box stores and I was the only female black manager. My head manager had a problem with lesbian women that we had working for us. He made lots of comments about them being lesbians and this and that, and I reported him, even though I was straight. I

reported him to the corporate department. The corporate people came, they took the reports, and from then on, every time we were on a monthly conference call, he used to just go after me. Um. My company that I work for is terrible with sexual harassment. They think it's not a big deal. Boys will be boys. Terrible things have happened here, from pictures of people's private parts being shown to women to people commenting about whether or not you had a boob job, etcetera, etcetera. This is at an

auto planet free un California, Gorge of California. It's a Friday night, almost time to leave. Crabs your hands, put some lout her grasp for the minute you just melt that you Oh my god, what happened? You know? I sweeps you off your feet. You can't believe it, but it's it was very real. When I was out of college, at my first job in the business world, I experienced some sexual harassment, just inappropriate UM, sexual behavior by one of the executives where I worked. UM. I had a

witness to it. I reported it to my boss, who was wonderful, and he actually asked several of the other women, uh and they corroborated. They had their own stories to share as well, and eventually the harasser was fired. But you know, it's a very isolating experience and that's very scary. UM. But you know, we're not alone. Thanks so much again to everyone who called in. You know, Katie, this conversation with Gretchen Carlson reminds me of some of our previous

episodes where we've had trailblazing women. And in fact, if you liked this episode, wait there's more, I think you'd also like our chat from August. That's episode number thirty seven with Avia di Verney. I love Eva. She is so a comp place. You're gonna be hearing a lot more about her very soon with a wrinkle in Time. Or how about our discussion from back in April with Cheryl Sandberg That is episode And of course, Julia Louis Dreyfuss was one of our first guests way back in

episode four and one of my favorites. And not just to name a few that are worth checking out, but for now, back to our conversation with Gretchen Carlson. To fast forward a little bit, you you work for some local stations from there, then CBS News, then Fox, which was started to be an ideological counterbalance to the mainstream media. Were you at the time attracted to the idea of a pro Republican network. No, I was attracted to my life dream, which was to do a morning show Monday

through Friday. I didn't want to listen to my mom anymore, asked me why I didn't smile more when I was covering murders and fires in local news, which is what she would do when I'd send the tape. People need to really get to know you, Gretchen. You know you have a funny side, you have you know, you have this all this other that you can offer, and you can't do that while you're just reporting the news. And I'm like, yeah, but I'm getting experience, mom, which I

really really need. So my my goal always in in television was to be able to do um, you know what Katie did Monday Monday through Friday National Morning Show and have the ability to show my chops in hard news and also my fun side. It's really a nice format for people who have a personality because you can do serious journalism and really, you know, put someone in the hot seat and then you can have a lot of fun and interact with your co hosts. And but

that was challenging for you. Tell me a little bit about your experience doing that show. It's funny because I know you worked with someone named Steve Doocey, who I worked with at the NBC O and O in Washington, d C. And you can talk about it and I can't. You can't talk about it, But can you talk about sort of the atmosphere in general of doing that show? You're not allowed to talk about any of that anyway, Well,

never mind, sorry, Roger Ales. Obviously, the head of Fox News was known as a very tough and temperamental boss. Can you talk about when his treatment of you started to cross the line or do we have to read the complaint for that? Yeah, it's all in the complaint. Yeah, I can't. I can't talk about my experience there at all. But I think based on all the news stories that have come out since my story broke, it's pretty apparent and out there. We can read from the book though,

right of course it's just from Brian. Do you want to read from from be Fear? So we don't put Gretchen in that weird situation. Before you do that, though, we have this audio clip from Fox and Friends. Gretchen, Okay, let's just listen to it and see if you can comment in any way, shape or form. Last night and some guy came up and he said, I saw you have Fox and Friends this morning. Is Gretchen as cute in person as she is onto you? And what did

you answer America beautiful dressing look wonderful? Was that sort of par for the course? Um, I can't. I can't talk about it. I think it speaks for itself. Again, I don't need to say anything about it. So it has been reported and and Gretchen said this that when she joined the network in two thousand five, Ale suggested

that she wear tight fitting outfits. Um. When Gretchen complained to her supervisor about Steve Doocey, who she said condescended to her on and off the air, Ales responded that she was a man hater and a killer who needed to get along with the boys. And after this conversation, Gretchen said that her role on the show diminished, that she was demoted, and ultimately she was terminated. But before then,

she um, she turned the tables on Roger Ales. I know you can't comment on this, but with your iPhone you recorded meetings with him in his office. And the famous quote was Ailes saying to you, I think you and I should have had a sexual relationship a long time ago, and then you'd be good and better and I'd be good and better. Sometimes problems are easier to

solve that way. So that was all pretty stunning and appalling, and it's a it's a little challenging that you can't comment on it, but at the very least our listeners ought to know. Um. You quote in the book Lisa Bloom, who has represented women for over thirty years, saying that of all the women I know who publicly complained, not one is working in her chosen career today. And in fact, ste you do see is still on Fox. You know,

these women are labeled as as troublemakers. Gretchen, do you think that broader problem of women losing their jobs blaming the victim can be fixed? Yeah? I mean, wouldn't it be fantastic with all the attention on this issue right now, in a national dialogue about it more than ever before, wouldn't it be great if corporations decided to hire these people back? You know, that would be a step in

the right direction. I mean, who deserves to have the American dream taken away from them because of some random jerk. That's what's happening. And the thousands of women who reached out to me, Um, the majority are not working in their in their chosen field anymore. And that's outrageous, And this is why we need to all be a part of the solution. And I'm talking not only men and women.

I'm talking Republicans and Democrats. That's why I've been I've been so active on Capitol Hill in the last year trying to get this bill introduced that would take the secrecy out of these forced arbitration clauses. It's a baby step, but at least it would try to even out the pendulum of power. Right now, the employer is sitting way up here knowing that anything that happens in the workplace is secret. Isn't that a great thing for them? And the employee who may have a dispute has no hour

and can never tell anyone about it. Ever, you testified on Capitol Hill. I think Al Franken I did press conference with him. Testifying has not yet happened. But I am optimistic because I've been having so many private meetings with Republicans. Democrats are already on board with this issue. But I am optimistic because I've had so many private meetings um with Republicans that I Am going to get

this bipartisan bill to happen. How difficult is it, given the kind of behavior we saw from the president during the campaign and and perhaps allegedly in the months and years before he decided to run. Sure, I think it sends mixed messages to our culture, There's no doubt about that. I actually featured Natasha Stoynof in my book Be Fierce. She was one of the Trump accusers who worked for

People magazine, and her story is complete in my book. So, you know, I think what was fascinating about all those women that had the bravery to come forward before he was elected was that their stories were published and then they just sort of disappeared as well, right, not not the women, but the stories, and that that goes to show you how we treat this issue in our culture.

It was like, Okay, well they made those allegations. I guess, oh, well, we haven't heard from them recently, so I guess we'll just move on. And and that was not a watershed moment. That was not a tipping point moment moment. So what do I think about the videotape. I think it was awful. I thought it was some of the worst human behavior that I've ever heard in my life talking about Hollywood tape.

And you know, I'm sure that millions of other parents, like myself, were faced with the same thing to grapple with. The day that came out and the days that followed, is what the hell do I tell my kids? And that became an issue, you know, in our household. And it was personal for me because my story had just happened, So it was extremely personal. And and I took it as a teachable moment for my kids and had them watch it and listen to it and told them this

is not how you treat another human being. I think what was shocking and appalling for people, though, was it didn't seem to matter among some members of the electorate. You know, a lot of people felt you know, repulsed by it, but other people really seemed to brush it off as quote unquote locker room talk. That's such an

overused excuse. It's like boys will be boys, and you know, or in the Harvey Weinstein story, while he was a you know, a product of the sixties and seventies, Nah, my grandparents didn't treat yet treat each other that way. They were born in the nineteen hundreds. Um, my dad doesn't treat my mom that way, and he's eighty three and my mom's seventy six, So you know, those are just all lame excuses to try to pass the buck

and not really delve into the issue at hand. Well, and perversely, the grabbed him by the pussy comment may have helped UM because it was so memorable and so striking that it obscured all of the allegations of behavior, not just talk. The miss us A contestant who said that she was assaulted, the woman who said that he groped her on a plane, the People magazine writer that you mentioned who said that she was assaulted at maral Lago,

ironically while writing a profile about his happy marriage. UM, the miss ten USA contestants, and and all that people seem to remember is that one tape which could be dismissed as locker room talk. Although you know, as my father and his sixties said, he's been in a lot of locker rooms and he's never heard that kind of talk. I think a lot of professional athletes said the same. Yeah,

and I mean I'm married to a sports agent. He also said the same, And I love sports and I've been in my share flocker rooms as well, and not quite heard that. Again, this is just this is an excuse, but you know, for well, to be fair to Trump's voters, or at least some of Trump's voters, many of them said that these comments bothered them. It wasn't that these comments were okay. It was that they voted for him anyway, based on other issues or dislike of Hillary Clinton or

whatever it was. I mean, I there was a stat in the exit poll that I think se of the electorate thought that he didn't have the experience in the temperament to be president, and yet he got of the vote. Well, that's what I was saying in the beginning that and I wrote a New York Times bet about this right after the election, which was I guess that as a society then we decided that political policies did supersede human decency.

Let's talk about some of the women who are featured in your book and some of the things that you learned, the common threads among the stories, what struck you the most? I know you said that it happens to everyone, all ages, at all levels of their careers. Um, what were some of the common threads among the women you profiled and heard from The pain and the shame and the agony.

And I would just wait for it. After a while, when I started talking to all of them where they would say the boys club, that just became a common phrase. And that was so shocking to me because I just really believed in two thousand seventeen that we had overcome that. But they all used that that term. I mean some of them their experience had happened a long time ago, but a lot of them it was going on right now. I mean I feature in the book cases that are

still being adjudicated right now. So uh, it was interesting that that has not changed over time. Maybe more than interesting, it was tragic, and so many other common threads about how the minute that they complained, they were retaliated against, and not just by men, but by other colleagues who are women in their businesses. And this brings me to

the huge unanswered questions with this issue. I've been working so hard on trying to answer so many of the other questions and move this ball forward, but this is the question that troubles me every night. Why as a culture and society do we protect harassers. I don't know why yet, but I have found that it's not just protecting harassers who are the top money makers within the company.

I have countless stories in the book from women whose harassers were low level male employees and the company still protected them, so it wasn't like we got to protect the CEO. Have you talked to people who are in positions of responsibility and power at companies to get some insight from them about sort of the corporate culture or the company culture that would in fact side with someone. Is it because it's there's so much built in sexism, or is it expensive? You know, there must be an

explanation for it culturally and maybe perhaps financially. Nobody on the record is going to tell you that, but I wonder if you could get former CEOs or former human resources people that might be interesting. Yeah, I mean, I actually advocate in the book my progressive ideas for how to handle this issue better in the workplace to help

move the ball forward. For example, maybe HR isn't the right place to go and complain because you have to remember that that HR representatives are getting paid by potentially the harasser, and so is that the right mechanism for which women and men should go to complain. So I advocate in the book that it might be worthy for companies to consider having an ambusman of sorts, where it's an independent person, where people really feel like they can

go to somebody who's not going to retaliate against them. Right. So, there are a lot of other things I advocate for in the book, including bystander training and turning them into allies. That's that's where we need you. And looking at you, Brian, Brian or male friend, we need we need male to males to become allies and not just bystanders. And by the way, this shouldn't be on the shoulders of women

only to solve this, should we need men in the fight. Uh, it's really actually more of a man's issue than it is a women's issue. It just turns out that the women are the ones who end up not working anymore well. In fact, in the book you have a lot of practical advice for both women and men to make this better. Um at a time when you started a report that shows worthplace harassments actually getting worse, which is hard to believe in this day and age. I know I was

shocked by that. And that's that's only the cases that are reported of people do not report anything, so imagine how bad it really is. Can you run through some of the advice that you would share with people about you know, what to do if they're harassed to prevent harassment,

and what men should do in all of this. So chapter four is actually my playbook, which is a twelve point plan, and I really see it as a guide book if you are actually going through harassment at work right now, or just to hold on too, just in case you too, ever unfortunately go through it. But I'll just touch on a couple of the highlights, which is, I think the most important thing is to call an

attorney first and foremost. I don't know, Brian, if you've given out your number, but you know you have to call. You have to call an attorney, just even for ten minutes, and and just to say, here's what's happening to me. What should I do? Do I have a case? And the first thing they're gonna ask you is do you have an arbitration class. That's going to be the first thing,

because then that's going to mean your muzzled. And and so you know, this is why I'm doing so much work on Capitol Hill, because we've gotta get rid of that. I was gonna say, it's not as if you can say hey, by the way, i'd love to come work for you. Can you get rid of the arbitration? You can't know, I know, But then they're gonna be like, yeah, thanks, have a nice day, I know, good luck. So this is why we need to attack it from the other way.

So that's the first thing. Call a lawyer. Second, document, document, document right down when it's happening to you, what happened, journal and keep it at home, Keep every email, text card, any piece of evidence. Um. And then tell at least two trusted colleagues, because if you don't have witnesses and we're still in the he said, she said culture, then

you're probably not going to be believed. But especially if you tell a male colleague and they come to your defense, I think that makes all the difference in the world. Those are three of my my twelve points. Um. So people will have to check out the book to to

see the entire playbook. But but it's essential that you have this plan because I think what women typically do is because I think we have to work harder to get ahead in the workplace in general, when we're faced with this kind of a circumstance, we think we can overcome it. Because we've overcome so many other things, and so we just push it off and keep working harder and thinking it will change. And then one day we're like, well, we can't take it anymore, and we might go and

file a complaint. And then the problem is you can't put the genie back in the bottle and you don't have a plan, and now you're literally screwed. I mean because you can't go back and document, You can't go back and gather evidence. You can't call an attorney and say what should I do. You can't start telling trusted colleagues, so now all that stuff. You can't save your performance reviews in case you're retaliated against to see how they

might start changing. Now, this is why the plan is is so important for women and men to have and then decide what they want to use or what they don't. You have to be smart and protect yourself. Yes, Gretchen, what do you say to people who point out that you wrote some warm words about Roger Ales in your first book, which was a couple of years ago, and and wonder why you did that, and also why it took you so long to come forward and report his

harassment against you. Well, in general, I can just say that it's a classic sign of somebody who's going through sexual harassment to do everything in their power to try and improve their situation in the workplace, and that includes writing flowery and smiley face notes, because as I just mentioned, women in particular think that the harder they work, the better the situation will become, and that you can overcome it, and so you will do everything in your power to

try and make your life better. Number Two, why this is the number one myth that I write about in the book. Why did you just not come forward sooner? And I mean, I think we've talked about this. It's an excruciating choice because you know what's going to probably happen to you in the workplace, troublemaker, demoted, possibly fired, and culturally as well. It's not just in the workplace, it's how are people going to perceive you on the outside.

And this is what we need to change, And this is what I feel like we're moving towards changing now with more and more people coming out and and this becoming a national dialogue for the last ten days to two weeks, and still we're talking about it. That's good. That starts to make these changes so that we flip it one degrees from being a troublemaker to being a hero. You know, that's really how we should be looking at

these situations. Do you worry about the backlash? It seems to me the pendulum swings repeatedly and then so many people are coming forward, so many people are standing up, so many people are using the hashtag me too. Do you worry that then suddenly people are, like I saw today Woody Allen not sure if he's the best person to be quoting on this fear as a witch hunt. He's irrelevant on this, right, But I'm just saying that I think some people probably are concerned that it's going

to be too much. How do you find some kind of balance where there isn't a backlash? No, actually, I don't see the backlash happening In my own personal experience. I've seen it actually curb the social media trolls that have been coming after me, because well, first of all, it's always fun to call out a few of them, but also, you know, to say, this is exactly what the problem is, that we're battling these people like this. But number two, I think that the more and more

people that are speaking out. It makes the trolls voices less significant, and even somewhere in their pea brains they are determining, oh my gosh, maybe I won't tweet this right because so many people are tweeting support that suddenly they're on their the back of their heels. That's been my experience over the last ten days. I feel like this massive, appropriate shaming of this kind of behavior is really going to make a lot of people think twice

and the workplace. No, they may not be Harvey weinstains, but you know the fact that the repercussions have been so swift and so intense, and the shame so enormous. Now he's on the cover of Time magazine, and I believe it says producer predator pariah. And I think that probably so many people see that and they think, not only in Hollywood, but all across the country, oh wow, uh, look what. I don't want to be that guy on the cover of Time magazine. I don't want to be

that guy in my community or in my company. That's the hope, And that's what I wrote in my recent New York Times op ed is Predators. This is a warning shot because now that more and more people are speaking out. You could be next. I feel like it's a shot through the heart. I feel like it's even more than a warning shot. I think that it's a clear signal to people everywhere that this behavior is not going to be tolerated. And it will be interesting to see if this has staying power. But so look at

what happened. When we take it out of the shadows of secrecy, everything changes. I mean, that's why I'm fighting so hard to take the secrecy element out, because the minute that it's this public we're talking about that, we've put the shame from the women to the right people. Roger Ale's downfall was almost Shakespearean. Um. And I'm curious how you felt, Gretchen the day you heard that he had passed away. UM. I can't comment on any thought or feeling that I had. I mean, I shouldn't. We

chose not to comment publicly. I just was curious. It must have been a strange sort of sensation for you. I mean, the only thing I can say is that every day since I have filed suit has been surreal. I mean, I could have never predicted how any of those days would have happened. Or turned out that I'd be sitting here talking about my book be fears. I mean, who would have known? Who would have known I'd be sitting here as one of the phases of sexual harassment.

I certainly didn't choose that for myself. Do you think the atmosphere at Fox News has changed? I have no idea. Well, certainly you know people who work there. Do you think I don't think any of them? None of them? I guess you hope it's gotten better. No, I don't really care. I'm really concerned about helping the millions of other women and men across the country, so many of who have reached out to me, and there's so much work to do in other places that I can't I can't be

worried or bothered about that. So, Gretchen, what's your reaction to the Trump administration weakening the standard to judge whether a student in college is guilty of sexual assault. A lot of people feel like the Obama administration overcorrected by saying the lowest standard of proof is the one that should be used, and the Trump administration responded by raising the standard of proof because they said that the old policey was unfair to those who are accused of sexual assault.

This whole topic drives me crazy because I feel like these actions are taking place for politics instead of what really needs to be happening on college campuses. And so we either are all into something and just because a Democrat did that, then a Republican comes along and takes it all away, and you know, we could go on and on and talk about both sides doing the same thing. Listen, the majority of people who come forward and say they

were assaulted are telling the truth. It's a small minority of cases where it turns out to be false accusations. So yes, we need to make sure that we protect those who are falsely accused. We wouldn't want that to be our children. However, it seems to me that the much greater problem is that one in five girls going off to college are going to be sexually assaulted. And that could be my daughter or anyone else who's listening. Daughter, that to me, see her son, that's true, and so

that to me seems to be the paramount concern. I'm not really sure that that number one on the list, it's who's falsely accused. Yeah, we've seen news stories of that, but then what that says, though, to culture is that we makes a big deal about those that it almost equals the playing field and makes it look like it's fifty and and I don't think it is. So I just wish we could take the politics out of it, and you know, let's do what's best for our young people.

And to me, that's calling attention to the issue. As I was telling people that we were going to be interviewing you, Gretchen, the reaction, at least among a lot of people I know, was that Fox and Friends, both when you were anchoring it and today is a show that's tilted against Democrats and and for the Republicans. Did you feel when you were doing that program like you were under pressure to look at the news through a certain filter or was that reporting authentic to your view

of the news. I wish I could answer that, but I can't. So you can't even talk about your your professional news experiences. I can't talk about any experience at Fox for eleven years. Okay, well worth a try. This is why we have to change the way in which we silence women. I mean, I can't think of a better way to make my case. So as we as we mentioned Gretchen, you quoted Lisa Bloom, who has represented

many women in harassment cases over the years. What was your reaction to Lisa choosing to represent and defend Harvey Weinstein. Disappointment because I know that my attorney who represented me, who specializes in these types of cases, only represents the plaintiff in the case. If you're a businesses representing women,

and that's what it should be. So I was I was disappointed with that one thing, I think, which is an interesting observation, and I don't know aggression if you feel this way, but someone told me that one of the reasons why this is becoming such front page news is there many more female journalists who are making sure that these stories are covered. I mean there are some men too. Obviously, Ronning Pharaoh deserves a lot of credit

for his many months investigation of Harvey Weinstein. But that's a really positive thing and I think that is really changing. I remember when I was anchoring the CBS Evening News, I tried to ensure that we did stories about dating violence or sexual assault in the military, you know, stories that were just not on the radar screens of my

male colleagues. And that is why it's so critically important we have more women in these powerful decision making positions in every profession and every profession Washington, d C. Where we're enacting laws. There couldn't be a more important position for women to have a voice. Um, And I just want to mention that the fund that I've set up after my story, Gift of Courage, is actually sponsoring a leadership initiative for women to become more involved civically and politically.

It's called the Gretchen Carlson Leadership Initiative nine City Tour starting next month. But here's the thing, it's helping underserved women get involved. That's one thing that has also surfaced in this whole conversation, you know, hashtag white girl problems.

And I think that some people of color feel that there's an inordinate amount of attention spent on white women where there's so much and what's commonly called intersectionality now with women of color and this kind of treatment of the workplace being much worse and not acknowledged as much. Do you hope it will have a trickle down effect?

But I have to say, of all the women who reached out to me, I would say that the demographics were exactly what the demographics are in the United States, right, But we don't hear necessarily about some of those women in in sort of other position possibly, but I'm featuring them, um. And also, I just want to say that this leadership initiative that I'm doing is also for domestic violence victims and in cities across the country. Unfortunately, predominantly those women

are minorities. So my initiative is going to help them incredibly for free to be able to come and go to workshops on both of those issues, get help from attorneys, and learn how to become more civically and politically involved, because when you're a victim of those things you have, you feel like you don't have a voice on that issue, but you also feel like you don't have a voice on anything. And I want these women to know that their voice matters. So do you intend to really make

this your life's work? Now? Do you miss television? Would you like to to do journalism again? This is obviously incredibly important, worthwhile work. But I'm just curious when you look kind of at the next ten years, what do you see yourself doing. I'm going to be working doing something because I've worked my whole life, but right now I'm doing four full time jobs. I'm way more busy than I ever was doing one TV job, and you know,

I yeah, I hope to go back to TV. But I have to say this last fifteen months has given me great perspective, and I'm glad that I took this time to really sit back and take it all in and not just jump right back into any opportunity. And there's been a lot of inquiries and opportunities, but I don't think I was ready to go and do that because this is what I was meant to be doing right now, and if I wasn't going to do it, who was going to do it? So this first and

foremost was important. And number two, the perspective that I've gained has really made me understand that whatever I go back to do, it's what I'm going to choose to go back to do. Plus, it must be really gratifying and satisfying to be a change agent and to be able to really dig in on a certain issue and effect change. Not many people can claim that true. And I have to say it's an incredibly emotional experience for me.

You know, when I get emails from people after, especially after the Weinstein story broke, where my next door neighbor who's a good friend of mine, you know, wrote me an email and said her sixteen year old daughter had the news on that morning and turned to her and said, mom, none of this would have happened if Mrs Carlson hadn't done what she did. I mean, wow, it makes me take a step back, and I can get very emotional about that because I'm like, wait a minute, are they

talking about me? You know, again, this is surreal experience. And I've gotten tons of those emails from you know, a woman I saw at a dinner party and she confided in me something that happened to her at work. And I actually said to her at the end, I said, you realize that was assault, right, And she was like no. And after the Weinstein story she wrote me an email and said, I just want to thank you again for your bravery and for helping me to acknowledge what happened

to me was a crime. You know. Wow, those are just two examples. But you know, if if I've inspired hundreds or thousands more, then wow, this mission has been worth it. Well, Gretchen, I'm so grateful that you came by to talk about your book. Be fierce and good luck with everything. It will be fascinating to watch if real change is on the horizon or is already taking

place in offices all across the country. I I get the sense that it really is a watershed moment that you helped create or at least paved the way for. And uh, it is very courageous of you to make this an important issue and to focus so much attention on it and help so many women who aren't famous and don't have the voice you have. Well, thank you for saying that. And if for people who know me incredibly well, they know that I never ever give up on an issue, so um, I'm bound and determined to

make change on this one. Well, thank you so much, Thank you Katie and Brian, Thanks Qutch, and we're all rooting for you in this Um. It's it's extraordinary work you're doing. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you to our production team. That's Jeannah Palmer, our producer, nor Richie, our production assistant, and Jared O'Connell our audio engineer. Alison Bresnick pulls the shows social media strings, and Emily Beena over at the Behemoth, Katie currekt Media helps make the

pod possible as well. Mark Phillips wrote our theme music. And remember, if you want to keep up with us on social media, you can find me under Katie Curic on Twitter and Instagram and Katie dot Curric on Snapchat. I'm on Facebook and of course I'm on there all the time, well mostly Instagram. Lately, I've been in Instagram freak. Brian meanwhile tweets from at goldsmith b on Twitter and he can be quite political. Indeed. And if you like our show and you haven't already subscribed, what are you

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