Graham Norton: Britain's King of Late-Night

Me too, but maybe I'm not pink anyway. Listeners, remember how we mentioned the last episode that we had something special in store for you, Well here is a big surprise everyone. We're coming to you today from London. That's right. The pod took us across the pond. All we had to do was at an end. The fine folks over at the British Broadcasting Corporation invited us to record some podcast episodes on their home turf and they didn't have

to ask us twice. We're very excited to be here. This, by the way, won't be our only episode out of London in collaboration with the BBC, so be sure to stay tuned in the month ahead. Now, listeners, we like analytics as much as the next podcast, and so we know that most of you are not British. Perhaps you're not familiar with Graham Norton or his TV show. Don't worry,

We're here to help you get acquainted. So the first thing you should know is that the format of the Graham Norton Show is essentially an a list cocktail party. On camera. He invites several celebrities to sit down side by side to chat and drink with one another. And they're not just there to promote their latest projects. They tell stories, they do impressions, even party tricks, and they feed on one another's energy. The result is a rollicking

good time. It's incredibly entertaining. But Graham is not just funning games. He is also an acclaim novelist and advice columnists for the Telegraph, something of a British icon. I just say he's just a plain old British icon and frankly a guy who knows how to have a good time. We began our conversation by asking him about the whole spirit of the show and what it's designed to do. Graham Norton, we are so excited a to be in London and be to be sitting here with you. Well

vice eversy. I live in London, but the sitting with you is exciting. I'm sure it's equally exciting for him. So so I gosh, I have so many questions to ask you, Graham, and I know Brian does as well. But you've been doing your what do they call it a chat show? Over here across the pond? We call it a chat show for a long time, but but in its current incarnation for about eleven years? Is that right? I don't even know, because I count from the beginning.

I count from when we started the Channel four with a show called so Graham Norton and that was twenty years ago this year. So thank you and in various forms, I've been doing a chat slash talk show for that long, um, and I genuinely I still enjoy it. I didn't you know. It's sort of extraordinary that you know that you would get a job and be doing the twenty years later and going, hey, it's a great job. And you do it once a week every Friday night. You tape on Thursdays.

And I read that your goal is to make sure everybody has a fantastic time. You're not there to poke and prod people. That's our job, by the way here today, And I think that's that's the difference. That's the difference I think between kind of a news agenda and entertainment agenda. I am not there to upset anybody. If people say I don't want to talk about what, why would I care? I don't care who you're dating. I don't, you know, I don't If you're sick of talking about that film,

I'm not going to bring it up. You know, it's not my job to upset you. And and also the audience for our show don't want to see that. They don't want to watch people be uncomfortable fort They just want to relax and they wanted to be fun. They want to watch some famous people on accouch having a

good time. And that's what we try to provide. And you think this relax setting actually yields more from the guests, right that, like, if they're comfortable, they actually will say more about their lives and their backgrounds and all the rest, and the audience will really get to know them. Right, That's kind of what I think. I think people if if they're on guard. You know, these people, they're not stupid. They've been around the block. They've been if not, they've

been media trained. But they you know, they know what they're doing. So they're not going to tell you anything. They don't want to tell you. You know, it's it's like asking O J. Did you do it? You know

he's not. That's there's no point. So, uh, if you've watched people on the show, if you see the things that makes them laugh, or how they react to a shocking story, how they react to an anecdote or something, it oddly is more of an insight into who they are and the sort of person they are than to just have them sat and chair by themselves answer questions,

you know, about their life or their career. You use Ryan Gosline as an example, when he laughed uproariously at some story that he heard on your show, and kind of what that revealed about him, his sense of humor, his kind of naturalness, sensibility, because how cute he is that we noticed already that was that was on festival.

But because they're because they because they share the couch the guests, there's also really telling things about you know, the ones who are interested in the other people on the couch, the ones that listen. There are some guests and they are nameless, Seriously, they'll remain names. And they'll sit there and I'll go, what are they looking at?

What are they looking at? And then I follow their gaze and they're looking at the monitor that's at the front of the little set for waiting for their close up, waiting to see themselves. And I know that your idea of a fantastic guest, and I would like to say,

just in advance, I would be a fantastic guest. This is not my effort to book myself on your show, but I did read that you like when people ask other guests questions, absolutely, and you don't mind if they kind of take the microphone from you and asked the guests a question. And best shows, the best shows are the ones where I sit in my chair and the couch takes on a life of its own and they're

just talking to each other. And that's those are the nights that I enjoyed the most, and I think the audience do too, because if there's something sort of almost like I don't know, sort of privileged about peering into this kind of celebrity dinner party that you would never normally be invited to. That it's like that dinner party where you, you know, who would you like to have

dinner with? Dead or alive? Your guests happened to be alive. Basically, you're living that out almost every day, well every week, right, And some of them I wouldn't choose after dinner. But but well, we're going to get to that in a moment. But actually I wanted to tell you both the funny

story to apropos of the asking a question. At one time, I was on the Tonight Show when Jay Lenna was hosting, and I came out and then there was a second guest and I don't even remember his name, but he was a young kind of actor and he was quite nervous, and his big thing is that he could cry on que as out, crying on to and or whatever. So I was sitting at, you know, next him. But at the Tonight Show, you don't kind of continue to engage. You just kind of laugh and chuckling. You're sort of

like a potty plant. But when he said this, I was waiting for Jay to say, okay, cry and he never did. And it was It took all the strength I had to not say ask him to cry, because why would why would you bring it up if you weren't going to do I don't know. I think there must have been a miscommunication in the pre interview. But anyway, so I I like asking questions. The guy who cries said, I'll do anything you want except cry, right, And I'm

just going to say that I can do it. But you know, I was going to ask you about the chemistry, grant, because your show, obviously with three people on the couch, so much of it depends on chemistry and how the guests interact. Um has there ever been a moment where the three I mean, it just did not seem to gell at all. There are, oddly, there are some nights when the guests are perfectly fine individually and the just is zero chemistry. The funniest times is when that happens

is when they're all from the same movie. Sometimes we'll have three or four people from the same movie and you're watching them, think, Wow, that was a long shoot. None like this. No bonding at all went on here. Clearly a lot of trailer time, separate trailer time went on. How do you what do you do in that situation? How do you get it kind of cranking? You don't, you don't. It's just not a very good show, really, that's you know, And that's that's the nice thing about

having these long runs. You know, you do a bad show, you go, we'll try about another one next week. We'll do another one next one. How do you prepare? You know, we obviously read a lot of articles about you. I know more about you than you probably know about you at this point, Grant. But when you're doing a show like that, do you read up on these folks or well, I'm sure it's the same when you did you know, the morning shows and your talk show. You know, there's

a team, so people will do. They do all the research. They then write quite chunky boggs, I mean kind of you know boggs, which I'll read. I read them on a Tuesday night, and then we go in on a Wednesday, and that's when we spend the day in the office together and we kind of choreograph the interviews. So obviously there's the core things we have to cover the product. So it's a film, a book, an album, whatever they have,

we've got to talk about those things. And we've got to get all that right, and we've got to talk about those things enough so that you know, the people backstage are happy and the guests are happy, they handless.

And then and then we try to find the other stories, the funny stories and what you're looking for, our moments where you can say, oh, you had a funny story about your first pet, and then you have a funny story about your first pet, and now we've got there's a conversation going about animals or whatever, and those are

the kind of things we try to find. We then kind of knit all that together in a sort of a sc ripped and then we do this bizarre thing and I don't quite know how we started doing it, but when we get into the studio on a Thursday, we do address rehearsal and the yeah and you know, the researchers play the researchers play it again, and we do it and they tell the stories and we do all this and it gives you you kind of it's only after that you kind of go, you know, what

they didn't talk for like twenty minutes, or that guest, you know, it was ages before I got to them, or there's too much of them at the beginning, or that interview seemed to go on too long, and then we have another meeting, we changed things around, and then we do the show. But but, but I imagine it's hard to replicate the real thing because you never know they're going to say. Because sometimes the guests are so

much better than the researcher, right, we know. The bad ones are when the researcher told Jill stories and they're really funny, and then the actual person tells their own stories and it's like, oh, that was it was funny this afternoon. I was gonna ask you, sort of on that note, what makes a great guest on your show? And what do you think is the best show you've ever had? Oh? Um, the show that kind of uh we I suppose a lot of us we think we like it was. It was a show we did with

some of the guys for Monument Men. So it was Matt Damon, Bill Murray, and Hu Bonneville from Downton Abbey. I was just one. Matt Damon got a little bit into the sauce. They all got quite into the sauce. So yeah, we didn't even mention that you get people snuckered before they is that the word what's the British word for drying? I think they're like twelve sauce a

drink is available, case it's available. But you always have a little bit of Van Blanc, yes, because I gotta think if I look, you know, if I look like I'm having a nice time, then maybe someone else will. You know. It's I ever get in the grip of the grape. No, no, I mean I do not on television. Um, but the monument Men's Guys they came on and because it was a really I can't remember, there was someone else in that movie, and he canceled at the last minute.

And then the studio was saying, were like, Bill Murray might show up, but he might not. We don't know. It all depends on he is a nice time of the premiere. They might he might join the others. So you know, that idea of scripting it and rehearsing it, of course, that was all out the window. We were just you know, we had no idea what the show was going to be until we found out who was going to rock up. And so Bill Murray did rock up. He was in a great mood and that was one

of those nights where I did nothing. I just watched the couch. I watched the couch and wasn't Matt Damon really good as well? Why were they were all terrific? They just told their stories. They made each other. That was lovely was they made each other laugh so much. They enjoyed each other. When you were going over the script and you're really Jumper is a sweater? I actually

asked it to where will will dumb her everything? I take my woolet Jumper, So in this scene in the hot tip, am I going to be in my wooley j have any guests of this show? And I suppose that is what makes a good on a bullet that time point, I don't know. Katie expression on a bull well be useful to the bull if they were nursing a baby bull, although bulls they can. Yeah, that's it, boy, I'll work with you later, Okay. And useless and privileged at the same time, because you know I have the

best seat in the house. Can I ask you something? Well, clearly I can. Everybody shares a couch on your show, except Hillary Clinton, who came on last year. Did she have like a lot of handlers making a lot of demands or why did you decide to put her on alone? Because the only little window of opportunity we had with her was I think eleven o'clock in the morning, so we kind of thought, we don't want to do a

whole show at eleven o'clock in the morning. So we have done these one on ones and they we either start the show with the one of when we did a one woman with Charlie Sheen was in the middle of the drug Yes it was. It was kind of towards the end of that, but yes, it was a long period and we just kind of, actually, that's a lot to ask other people to actually, yeah, he's HIV positive, so that we're very serious and we wanted to talk about stuff like that. So so we do occasionally do these, uh,

single interviews. So with the Hillary because we only had the left frolock in the morning, so we get we put out there saying, look, if anybody wants to come and see an interview with Hillary Clinton at eleven o'clock in the morning, feel free. So audience full, six hundred people there, six d people. They show up. They did not see until I think a quarter past four in the after I read that what she heard her foot. No, that's right, and she was in a cast, right, Yeah,

she had one of those boot things. Yeah. And it was extraordinary because we didn't we literally did not know what was going on. They didn't tell you anything. They were telling us as much as they could, but they didn't know how badly she had hurt her foot. She didn't know what you know, what, was she going to need surgery? Da dada? She did rock up and she was you know, I think she was on pain medication by the end of the That makes for an interesting interview.

A little pain medication next with a little caepernet. No, no, no, no, no booze. I think I did have to because otherwise it would looked weird if I didn't have one. So it was good. It was good for me that it moved in the afternoon. So but but by the end you could tell that the what was causing her pain and she was uncomfortable. But but nice that she showed up. No,

nice that she showed up. And and it was one of those weird things where the minute and elections over, you suddenly see who they should have been all along. You know, her interview was so great. Why weren't you like this? Why was it so great? Because she was she was on guarded she wasn't trying to second guess everything. Well, this was after the election of the inauguration, so she could let her hair down, and she'd written a book where she'd kind of put it all in there. And

the book. Have you read the book? I haven't read. I want to read it. It's on my list. It is good. And what isn't it interesting? The things she can't let go of? These we well know, but like but weird. There's like an interview where they didn't ask her enough questions about foreign policy and stuff, and you're like, I think I know what interviews she's talking. Yes, yeah, it was on the Intrepid. So you enjoyed her a lot. She was funny and she also talked about the inauguration.

We have a clip from that interview. Let's take a listen. I mean, it's it's weak Shakespearean right. You went to the in racial and that was because you were first lady, not because you're being right. And and you know, I really tried to get out of going. Um, I you know, because I was going, not as the candidate or the opponent but as a former first lady, because the tradition is presidents and former first ladies all show up, regardless

of Republican or Democrat, to show support continuity of our government. So, oh my gosh, I didn't know what to expect. What I wanted to have happened was despite the kind of campaign he ran, I wanted him to rise to the occasion of being our president and being the president for everybody, not just people who supported him. That didn't happen. And

so we were we were sitting there listening. I was sitting next to George W. Bush and Bill was on my other side, and we were listening to this really dark, divisive speech that I just scribe as a cry from the white nationalist gut um. It wasn't an outreach. It was a narrowing and a hammering of what he had said before. And it's reported, so I put it in the book. It's reported that George W. Bush, as it ends,

says that was some weird ship. She's so likable. It's so funny to hear her just say that, right, because it's just you just feel like if that woman had campaigned, she had done a lot better. Maybe, although she would have offended a bunch of people. She'd have gotten a denial from George W. Bush if that had happened before. I mean careful, but but but I think she was too cautious and too careful. If she had let her personality show in this warm, funny side of her, I

think it would have made a big difference. And it was something I don't know whether it's about. Because she was a woman, she felt she had to be better and try harder, but she was. But she was all about doing her homework. She was all about I'm prepared, and I say, you are up against this guy who you know, Like I said, she was worried about her foreign policy. That guy couldn't point out American CDs on

a map, and nobody cared. She always, I think, seemed like the prepared girl in the front of the class, always with her hand up in the A yes's exactly Tracy Flick. But you know, I have to just say that watching that inauguration, you had to admire how stoic and poise she was because it must have really driven her crazy. And you know what she would have said about that, I'm always liked best when I'm a victim.

She's made this point several times. Because she was, you know, hurt and defeated, people are more sympathetic the same thing to happen when her husband cheated on her with Monica Lewinsky. And I think that is very gendered. Actually there's something you know, because people though, oh, I you know, I hate her some because when we announced she was going to be on, you actually saw it was weird. I've never encountered Russian bots before, but suddenly, well yeah, because

I thought that's so weird. And sure enough, even when the show went out, when it was going out in real time, um, the feed was really positive. It was real viewers in Britain watching an interview with Hillary, and once the morning came and they were up in Russia and they had time, they want, Oh that happened, we better get in there. Suddenly you all this negativity, but at a random time when the show wasn't on anywhere.

The show, yeah it was, it wasn't interesting. But also I do think you know, the way that people hate her, You I think fair enough hate a politician, you know, be feel free to head a politician. But to those people, you've gotta think, is there a male politician you hate as much as you hate her, and I think the answer is no, And therefore that has to be something to do with gender. Well, do you think that Margaret Thatcher faced some of the same problems that Hillary Clinton faced.

I'm sort of too young to really well. Actually, well, let's say other female politicians, even Theresa May. I mean Theresa A definitely, I think she does. Is it a similar kind of misogyny in your view? Certainly, I think there's that slightly um, you know, head girl. But but also with her, there's almost a sort of masochistic about it. She it's you know, that thing about wanting to be

a victim. She she walks into fire. I mean she she wants it, she draws it on herself and in a way, you know, after Brexit, you know, anything could have happened when anybody who was Prime minister at that point would have been a victim. But who wants that job, you know, like, get the job after it's happened. Don't don't try to steer the country. You know in this inevitably, whoever is prime minister right after Brexit is going to

have an impossible time. I think, yeah, and all the boys scarpered and left it to head girl to clean up the mess. She's like the vomit monitor or something. You know, she's out in the hole with a bucket. Well, the boys are waiting outside in the playground and is it gone yet? And we'll come in when it's clean. Well, we're going to take a break and when we come back, we're going to talk about Brexit. We're going to talk about Trump. We're going to talk about your childhood and

how you got to where you are today. We're basically going to be here for five hours. Great, I hope you're okay about that. So we'll be back right after this, and we're back. You've written about what maybe called your love love relationship with alcohol. You did go to a A for a few days at one point, but obviously it didn't stick. Anyone watching your show that can I just say that thing about me going to a A I I, what happened? Was that fake news? What it's

sort of fake news. All that happened was I was staying in l A with Carrie Fisher and I was getting a lift downtown to meet friends to go for drinks. But we had to stop because she was going to an a meeting on the way, So you just wrapped her off. No no, she was driving, so I had to go away lift with a y no no no, So I had to go in and wait for the meeting, and then she continued the drive down. So I so I have attended a two or three waiting, but you didn't.

I didn't go to the I swung by, Okay, didn't ever worry about your your drinking it off. I do, not so much in terms of addiction, more in terms of just health and what it's doing to myself. So when I turned fifty, I had a big sort of week called an emot What does that sound like? A big health checky type thing? Okay, is something you do to your car, right, okay? So a tuna yeah, that sort of thing. So I had what this scan and you know, like they give pregnant women. By the way,

you're pretty buff. I just want to point out I cycle. Okay. So so I'm there and they put that kind of weird jelly on you. Oh yeah, I'm familiar with it. Happy had two babies and many sonograms, so I'm not familiar. You're young. You're young. So they're doing this and he's going and this is the such and search and this is and he goes and around here is the liver and I literally went like, what is that? Like, wait a second, we can't find it. It's covered with stuff.

There's an old cauliflower in here. And it was fine. It was fine. Drink so far good, I must say I do because it annoys me when people talk about not drinking. So I don't talk about cutting down. But of course this is in America, so I can. But yeah, I do drink a lot less than I used to. And what is your drink of choice? White wine, vodka, champagne, anything you can see through I feel apart from yeah that guy thing. Okay, so this is our bridge to

your background. Okay, yes you're from Ireland, yeah, pretty much. And a little bit about your dad. So your dad was a salesman for Guinness. Yes, very good. Yeah you brought it back, Yeah we did, we did, so tell us about that. And also you grew up in a Protestant family in a Catholic stronghold in Ireland before the peace Deal, when you know, these two groups were at each other's throats. What was that like? How did it shape you? And I think my dad working in the

Guinness was just heated job. And what's interesting is, I suppose from outside point is it's the big Irish firm. You know, people have heard of Guinness, but really living there, he just had a job and off he went every day and didn't came back. The growing up Protestant in southern Ireland, County Cork, in County Cork, and I actually moved around a lot, but always in southern My mother's from Belfast up in the north, and I think people kind of misconstruy was going on back then. There was

no trouble in the south. All the troubles were in the north. But what was odd about it was that you were kind of isolated in the community. So I remember we moved to Abandon, where my mother still lived, and we moved there during the summer holidays and we lived in a house in the street and I played with all the other kids and I went to the birthday parties did during the summer. The end of the summer we went to school. I never saw this children again.

They were segregated schools. Yeah, we went to a protest school. They went to their school and we just didn't hang out again, not in a kind of you know, because obviously we were allowed to play together. No one sound like the jet. Yeah, it wasn't like that, and it wasn't like kind of you know, the Protestant parents were telling their kids not to play with the Catholic kids, and the Catholic parents it was just you didn't go to school with them, so I don't know you anymore.

And that's just the way kids are. But I think that it was kind of isolating and made you feel slightly other, particularly because you know, in Ireland, Catholicism is everywhere. You know, the Angelis comes on the TV at six o'clock, the bells ring and there's the Virgin Mary on the radio. You know, if you're on the bus and you'd go past a chapel, everyone on the bus blesses themselves, you know, and except you. Yeah, and and and obviously those things

have changed enormously. You know. I'm so proud the country that. Yeah, I'm so proud of the country that Ireland has become. It's well, especially with this recent historic vote on abortion. It blows my mind that that is a country that I left thirty years ago. That it would have been unheard of that the place I left would have a referendum on gay marriage, have a referendum on abortion and have an overwhelming yes vote, not just a squeaking vibe. Overwhelming,

and that is down. I think to young people in Ireland, they are terrific. They are fashioning a republic for themselves that's fit for purpose. It has room for them to live the life they want to live in it and they're not being told what to do by the church anymore. And it is the government of the people rather than

the government of Rome, and it's it's terrific. When you were growing up, I know that your mom said, as even as a four year old, that you might be faced with bullying and she gave you sort of coping skills about how to deal with that, which was ignore the bullies. Just don't validate anything they've said. And it seems to me that lesson is kind of stayed with you your entire life. It is very good advice in stopping bullying in the You know, bullies want a reaction.

If you don't react that they sort they must get bored. However, I think it does make you overall slightly emotionally disengaged life. I mean, what advice would you give to your kids if they were being bullied or did you prep them for school? Did you give them you just got to send them to a very nice school where that wasn't going to happen. I mean everything, I think things happened, and I think my daughter was actually bullied in high school.

And I don't know. I think every situation is different, you know, in terms of how you handle it, and you just hope you equip them with enough sort of inner strength that they're able to forge ahead. But so don't you guys think I think like bullying is so going to be the next me too, the amount of bullying in the workplace that goes on, Like really you're online that too, But don't worry, Milannia. Trump's gonna handle all that be better best, Actually Obama's would be better.

So she cribbed for Michelle, like a third or fourth time would be best. Did she rock up today? Did you because we're doing this earlier in the week, did

she as she seen the light of day? No, actually is having a public appearance in the Veterans event, but I read that it was going to happen, so still earlier as of this recording, we are unsure whether, but it is apparently she is going to make an appearance that is such an interesting thing, and who knows, you know, everything becomes a huge scandal, like no matter what it seems.

I think he enjoyed this we were discussing earlier. I think he enjoys this stuff because inevitably it's a distraction from the last scandal, which happened twenty minutes ago, which he doesn't want to talk about. And also, these scandals don't matter, So let's talk about Malanni a missing for days rather than talk about the sanctions or the trade deals and all that sort of stuff. Yeah. So, yeah, you know, we talked about Trump seven. So back to you.

Did you when did you get a sense that you did? You know, sort of at what age did you feel like I'm gay? You know? Now this sounds like a joke, but it's not. But a part of it. I think part of my realization was slow. Partly I was I was a late sort of tip for a twig, and it was to with being Protestant in Southern Ireland. If you talk to a lot of gay people who grew up in kind of rural communities, they always feel say

they felt like a foreigner. They felt sort of all yeah, they just felt slightly out of step with everyone, And so you can imagine that if you actually can name that growing up, you can go, oh, well, I feel like that because I'm a Protestant, I am slightly out of step with everybody. Um. It was only when I left Ireland diagorized that those feelings weren't Protestant feelings. Different, different, you told the Guardian, and I was really struck by

this quote. I don't think anyone wants to be gay. For a cosmopolitan child living in London, on the right side of town, maybe it wouldn't cost them a second thought. But when I was growing up it did cost me a second thought. I thought I'd be a social pariah. So did it take you a while to kind of accept who you are? And yes, you know, I hope the world is different from most young people now, and certainly that's the world we want to live in. My worry is that a lot people still don't live in

that world. The trouble is I've sort of been out of it for so long. You know, living in London is you know, just what doesn't cross your mind, and you forget how big the world is. But I have to say when I went back to my old school for you know, reunion, yeah, well know, to give up prizes, like a prize day type thing. You know, I met these kids. Not only were they you know, the role was kind of obviously gay kids at your school, but these ones were out and that blew my mind. Well,

I think to your earlier point about young people. You know, my daughters are twenty six and twenty two, and you know, high schools all over the country have lgbt Q clubs. Uh. It is just a very different atmosphere where people are encouraged to express their individuality and in a really positive way. And I think it's wonderful. But you know what happened to you though, And I guess when you were in college you almost died Graham, Katie, I did. You're making fun of it now, but I read about it and

I was really upset. Well, I was mugged. I was mugged, but not just mugged. No, I was stabbed as part of the muggy. I must say, I don't remember the stabbing. It's one of those things. I thought I was just mugged and they ran off in the re really thought you were just mugged and you were stabbed and beaten and all the rest. They got to hit me over the head with a thing and it sounded like a bit of like plastic piping, and then you realize, oh, no,

that is like a wooden thing. But the plastic piping bit is the noise your skull makes here in London. Yeah, and uh, we're playing into Trump's narrative now. It's so dangerous here riding immigrants. So I they then, you know, they ran so from my bag and they left me on the on the pavement and ran off and I watched them go and they didn't get up now, And when I went to get up, I felt like I

was peeling myself off the ground. And that's odd. And I looked down and you know, I'm just soaked with blood and you lost half of your I did in the end, half my blood. But what was kind of what I liked. I was at drama school at the

time and we were doing you know Shakespeare. You know that the Shakespeare people always go, you know, I've been run through all that sort of stuff, and you've always thought, oh, that's because they know, you know, they no special effects back in Shakespeare stile, so people had to say I've been run through. But in fact, it's what you say because you're so surprised because your adrenaline is up, so

you didn't you don't feel it. It's like John Lennon saying I've been shot, you know, and you look down and go, oh, I've been stabbed. That sounds like Monty Python and you and you have to say it out loud because it's so astonishing. And then I sort of wandered around a bit and then a very nice old couple rang an ambulance and they saved my life. Why did they do this to you? Do you think? Do you think it was a random thing? Oh? Totally random? Yeah I was, I was. It wasn't It had nothing

to do with homopho or anything like that. I don't think so. I mean, I was just by myself. I was wearing a very nice suit, but I was gonna say I was wearing a dress. And what's the big deal was the suit was too well cut and it was a nice second hand suit. Ruined, of course, ruined. And that's the tragic Well after after you got out of school, you actually dropped out of school, right. Ultimately, when you dropped out, is this after before you joined

the commune in San Francisco? Okay, what's the timeline? The timeline is the timeline is I went to University College Cork. I did two years there and then moving with me. Then I went to America for a year on one of those in and we at these J one visas we can go and work for things. So I did that wait tables and I had I think it was a trailways. Are they gone now? Trailways buses? Yeah, Brian hasn't ever ridden one, but they still still true. Yeah,

so seven day is rambler ticket for trailways. The idea was going to land in New York and I was going to get l A, but in fact it ran out in San Francisco. Um, so I couldn't get to l A. But actually it was quite Google had some phone number there and with this one woman, she gave me the number for this commune. It was called Star Dance. I don't know what it's called that. It's changed its name now Start Dance. And I was sort of an

economic hippie. It was just it was cheap rent. So I just I lived in this commun shop was never really part. I mean I was part of the commune. I did do everything with them. Did you stay there and nearly a year? Um? And I loved it. I absolutely loved it. Um. Yeah, but you didn't love it that much because she came back to London. It was never my life. I always felt I couldn't really start my life in America. And then you came back here and you kind of struggled for a while to find work,

to get the sorts of parts you wanted. You want to be a comedian, and at some point you sort of wondered, am I a waiter trying to become an actor and a comedian or am I just destined to

do what I'm doing now? Well, it's one of those weird things that I think, you know, talking to people on my show, there are certain common threads in people's success stories, and one of the common threads is they are stupid, Like they made really terrible choices that you would not recommend anyone make, but it turned out for them, you know what I mean. So they're on the couch.

So they're on the couch. That's great, But there must be lots of people who are not on a couch who are struggling somewhere thinking, oh, maybe I shouldn't have dropped out of school, maybe I shouldn't have moved to l a nothing but fifty dollars, or maybe I shouldn't have But we only hear the success stories. Those are the people said. So I was one of those people. If I had been my friend, I would have said, give it up, just stop already. This is pathetic. It's

painful to watch you. It is clearly never going to happen for you, but you hung in there. I hung in there because I had no plan B. And I think that's often. Uh, that's good advice to people don't have a plan B. Again, No, I think it's it's funny because you obviously always hear the opposite. Yeah, but I had no plan B. It wasn't I got a plan A. I just had the plan. And when it wasn't working, I had no option but just to continue

with the terrible plan. But happily I did started. I started getting its radio work and then it's a TV work. And the thing that makes me happy is my dad lived to see me have some success, so he didn't go to his grave worrying about me. Which would have just been the most horrible thing to do to your dad was to you know, let him die, thinking what the hell is going to happen to that loser? So is your mom still? Yeah, I know she's still with us.

She's hanging in there, old boots. You're lucky. You're lucky because it's hard when you lose both parents. You know, there's you feel so Heather, Well, there's no good time, is there? You're never ready? And my mom was ninety one and my dad was ninety and I still, you know,

just I'm so sad that they're gone. When people say, oh, well, they lived a long life, and as though you want to put them out to pasture just because they're ninety, you know, but I guess I think that on the other hand, you are lucky to have somebody as long as as that. Okay, I've gotta tee you web for this. I gotta te you up for this. So one of your jobs in two thousand five is you moved to the BBC with a show call. How do you solve the problem like Marie uh beautiful guests getting mad? Take

this cloud and pin it down? How do you find a word that means Marie h a flibberty gibbet a will of will whisp a glass and she's doing this from memory. Our listeners get really mad when she doesn't sing for an episode. I can't sing, but I love to sing. No, not really, But but tell me about that show, because it was with Andrew Lloyd Webber. He was searching for Maria because he was going to do

the stage version of Sound of Music. He acquired the rights and he was going to put it on the West End, and he came up with this genius idea, how do you solve a problem like Marial. I think it was one of those shows where the name came up first. Yeah, it's so clever. It's clever. And they did a casting show and so what was your role in it? I literally go up next. It's blah blah blah blah like the Ryan Secret. Yeah, yeah, that's what I was doing. Yeah. So it was so easy. It

couldn't have been an easier job. Was it a massive hit? It was? It did really well. We did a bunch of them. We we cast Maria, then we did Joseph for Joseph and the Technicolor, we did Nancy from Oliver did you say, were is Nancy? We didn't do that. That one was called I do anything, Yeah, anything to me? Okay, sorry, there were probably in a show to mood. It's also heavily jet lag, so I apologize. But anyway, so how what that sounds like? So much fun? It was hoot

and holler, and I love Andrew. Working with Andrew is just terrific. Have you guys interviewed him? You know what? I know we tried to for this trip out of town. Yeah, he blew us off ground, so maybe you can pick us up. But is he great? I really like him because he's like a wonderful teacher because he is so passionate and enthusiastic about certain things like art, like musicals, like music, and when he talks to you, it's infectious.

So that's what I mean, exactly a great teacher. So I'm not that interested in any of those things, but when I'm with him, I am, and and actually the love of music has sort of stayed with me and I now I do go to see all the new musicals and you know, have opinions like I know what I'm talking about. I haven't seen that because not my favorite. When I when I met When I met him, he would he would do that. He would refer to scenes from Phantom of the Opera and I would just have

a smile. And not because I've never seen Phantom the Opera, but when you were as rich as he is, he's got every right to assume that everyone on planet Earth has paid to see it. I did finally see it with my mother. My mother wanted to see it. I took her and it was to be mostly populated by Japanese tourist theory. Really it was extraordinary. It was proper tourist audience, like, wow, who are you? Well, he's enormously talented, right, I mean, okay, so we can't just say nice things.

Who's a celebrity you really don't like? You know what? I think you guys will know this most I think most people are nice in themselves. It's the people around them that that is so true. I interviewed Galgadote recently and I loved her and I wanted to talk to her because she was in the Israeli Army. She has a very interesting backstory, not just as a wonder woman. Her publicist was such a jerk and kept cutting me off, and I was like, what are you doing? She's an

intelligent woman. She can have a smart conversation. I hate that, But do you think I guess I won't be interviewing Keel. So let's talk about a well known person that Katie and I both like a lot, Judy Dench and Peter Bitch. We have a clip, we have a clip. We want to play and dud do you still go clubbing? Do you still cut a robe? Do you? I have never ever been to a club in my life? Terrible, Yes, sorry for me like a rogue. Oh do I yes, never been to a night club? Yes, you have? Absolutely.

They took us into the back door. Wouldn't the story of her life? The only time? Is that really the only time? Yes? Did you not have a nice night? You look like you're having fun? Second, we did? I'm gay and I've never been to heaven. That's astonishing. Why were you there for God? That's a good question too. I know the answer to that as well. You were there to share what you were there to see share

the singer share. And of course it was all the more fun because Elton John was with Judy den Yeah, exactly, because they're kind of egging each other on and kind of enjoying each other. Yeah, no, she was in there. I think it was around tea with Mussolini time and they Share was premier new single at the time. Believe do you believe that? Surely the engineer should have picked up on that and immediately got from And it was a very odd night because heaven is this big gay night.

It was a big gay nightclub in London, and you know, so obviously we're there to see Share, but you don't expect to see Judy and you don't expect Sir Ben Kingsley to wander on and introduce Share. Audience audience was like God's game. Can you explain the big red chair on your show for people who haven't seen it? I can the big red chair, Um, not the big red share the big bigger chair to the big red chair is I think we do. At the end of the show, it's a segment where we get audience members in and

they basically try to tell their great story. They're one good anecdote, you know, if you're all down you're in the bar and everyone swapping stories. Oh this thing happened to me, this is happened to me. You're a great one. If you were at all boring. There's a big lever and we flip it and you're gone. And it came about because and again this is very British where it came up, and there was a comic called Ronnie Corbett and he used to tell these very long rambling stories

as part of the show. He's probably the two Ronnie. They're a very famous double act here, and he would tell these long rambling stories about I said to the producer blah blah. And when he was a guest, we thought, how funny. We'll get audience members to try to tell stories and then we'll have a lever and death. Great, just for one off thing. So it was done. And then afterwards the line producer came to us and said,

do you know how much that chair cost? And we were like no, anyway, we needed to use it again because it was spending so so, so he came up with this idea and now we use it every week. So in fact, it was money well spent. That other that happens. Then one thing leads to another in the dog basket and he gets injured. Anyway, Um, okay, so many bits of this story missing. So you're having sex in a dog basket to another, hope, leave a pool, leave a great and so basically is there an objection seat?

It kind of flips the it just does anybody get hurt? No? No, In fact, it looks more shocking on the screen when you actually when if you do it, it's quite a shallow little dip. It's not bad at all. We're going to wrap things up pretty soon. Of course, we could talk to you all day, but we know you probably have a life and things to do. But you were on Stephen Colbert and he asked you about Trump and how people across the pond view him. So let's listen

to that. You're not the most political, but you guys talk about Trump over there. Well, you know we're heard if your political situation has reached us U across the pond, Yeah, across the pond. Yeah, it's uh, you know to put international news and we get it, and we do do, I mean, why not do? It's like shooting fish in a barrel making fun of him. So so you know, all these useless comedy writers are not like I can do these jokes exactly because he writes them for you.

The fish happens to be the greatest democracy in the world. Unfortunately. Yes, and you're shooting him with a gun, but he's got a bomb, so yeah, it's it's worrisome. The other thing that maybe people can explain is we're all aware that his you know, his approval ratings are rock bottom, terrible, never never, never been worse. But why aren't they zero?

That's what I like you who aren't those people who were like because I get I get that you were a fan of the Apprentice, you thought always straight talking, you got to shake things up, But at this point, who is going no, No, he's doing a good job. And that's I think it's I think it's some cost, Like people have already invested so much in him that they're just going to ride the bomb all the way down. Wow, everyone,

And that joke hasn't aged well, has it? Because ratings are quite almost normal now, Wow, Like, what do people here think of Donald Trump? I know, obviously you can't say for all all Brits, but in general, what's the sentiment and is it does it fall along the lines of Brexit? And I think there is there is certainly some support from you here, you know, because we do jokes about it on the show and every week, you get some you know, treats about you know, stop making

fun of them, blah blah blah blah. But I think overall people on one level they find him funny, but another level, you know, they find him really worrying, particularly because it breaks it. You know, we were supposed to have this special relationship with America, and one of the things we were told was after Brexit, will have great trade deals with America. That doesn't look that likely. Now

it happened. I was like, don't, don't dunt. I thought, wow, I just felt that portended a specific outcome in the US and sort of Bill Clinton, by the way, and he warned a bunch of the Hillary people, and I thought they just didn't take it seriously. Yeah, the great thing about you is you can vote Trump out. We've done Brexit. Brexits happening, Brexits forever. There's no turning back. Well, you know, hope springs eternal. But no, they seem absolutely

determined that this is going to happen. Do you think there ought to be a second referendum? You know what? Apparently I'm told that if there was, it would win again. Because now people feel that the EU is bullying US, so now there's more anti europe feeling rather than actually they're negotiating a deal and it turns out they're really good at it, and they used to negotiate deals for us. They don't, but yeah, they think they're bullying us. So

I think breggsit would probably win again. There are a lot of parallels though, when you think about it, between what sort of the mood of the countries, both in the US and in Great Britain, and this anti intellectualism which I think has has surfaced in both countries, This this kind of distrust of experts. There's a book called The Death of Expertise. I know that the Education minister who is now the Minister of the Environment, I'm told not that I knew that, but someone Yeah, what did

he say? We have too many of someone's bring up a point before the vast Basically experts are predicting that, you know, the economy or tanka da dada, and you go, well, I think this country has had enough of experts and that really really, that's that's your takeaway. But also in this country, and I'm sure it's the same in America, where the results of the election has been forgotten. So actually people who want to remain or an intellectual elite.

There was forty eight percent of the population. If that's an intellectual elite, we're doing really well. And the same in America. You know, we did win the popular vote, but somehow that's been forgotten. Now it's as if you know, the great, you know, the great working man and woman of America voted for Trump, and it's like, no, some did, but an awful lot of vote of reelery. So I know we have to wrap. But just a couple more things. You said after splitting up with your boyfriend on the radio.

You said you'd prefer to live alone for the rest of your life. Quote then live with towels that were folded incorrectly? Are you a neat freak? But honestly, when I when I do a book events and and that was one particular book when that was when I said that, it used to get this huge round of a bosom. People who basically hate cohabiting. People cohabit because they have to because it makes economic sense. I don't think anyone wants to live with any I disagree. I love you

with my husband. People like things the way they like things. Well, that's true. You have to compromise, exceed there you go. So you know, it's like the toilet papers wrong, that hung the wrong way around. It's kind of the bread doesn't go there, you know. And also my problem is, of course I'm old. So the longer you leave it, the worst this gets. So are you interested in in romance at this point? Always interested? Here? Are you on Tinder? No? No?

I was Grinder. No, I couldn't do Grinder because of you know, well just what it is, and that I worked for the BBC. But I felt I felt Tinder was socially acceptable. I could do Tinder, but no more. But no more. Okay, you've mentioned your books a couple of times, and we want to give you a plug because you have a new book coming out in the fall. Well, I don't know. I've got a book that's still for

sale in America called Holding. It's a novel published by a Tria I think a t R I A. But there's a new book we published here in the fall and hope someone in America will buy. It's called a Keeper, and and it's fiction. It's another novel. Yeah, this is my this is my new thing. When I turned fifty, I decided right enough, I've told you know, I've always wanted to run a novel. And you know, you know those people who say I'd love to be able to play piano, I think there is a way you could

do that. You could just learn and shoot up about it. So so that's that was my approach novel writing. I thought enough talking about it, do it. So this is my second one. I think you surprise people a bit with the first one, that it was very soulful and deep and thoughtful, and it was in some ways, you know, the antithesis of parts of your show. I would say, you know, it's certainly not the tele show at all.

But I think that's you know, we've all got multifacet and people seem to want to put you in a box, and then you know, if you deviate from their expectations, they freak out. But then we do put ourselves in boxes, you know. Yeah, you know if buttically at work, I think you want people to treat you in a certain

way and assume you're a certain person. Um, you know, And then at the weekend way and and and in closing, speaking of the weekend, I read this quote of yours and I really liked it, Graham, because I think it's good advice for everyone. You said, you're talking about relationships, and you said, I failed all my relationship exams, and yes,

it's a different life, but I'm still living. And then you go on to say you're far better off finding ways to enjoy the life you're living than mourning the life you're not, which is a double whammy of unhappiness. And if you want someone to share your life, well, no one wants to share a miserable life. Look like you're having fun, and someone might want to join the parade a funeral, Cortege not so much. I'm so wise. Actually, I really like that because I think, you know, it's

sort of a variation on the secret. You know, what you put out you'll get in return, And I think that's true. And I think happy people attract other happy people, right, Well, I I get, I get, you know, I do advice call them for the telegraphy, that's right, and agony uncle, yeah, And I get so many let us from those people, you know, being miserable and da da you know, I really I really want to meet somebody's like, who the

hell wants to go out with you? You know you have no you know, you're just you're literally sitting in your house waiting to meet someone. That doesn't seem like a party anyone wants to go to. So yeah, get out live a bit. When you think about your future, do you want to keep doing this as long as possible? Do you see stopping the show and devoting your time to writing? And I'd like to I love my job. I like working. I suppose what I Ultimately I'd like

to work less, but not stop. People I know who stopped working go a bit cucku because I just think gives you too much time in your hands. And they I don't think I could do that. The over analyze. I agree with that. Yeah, you know they about me, the obsessed, the obsessed about my nution and stupid things. And so I do want to keep working, but I would like to to write more. So it's about cutting back, not stopping. Well, I am so happy to meet you.

This is so fun and not surprised seemingly you're you're pretty good at chatting. Well, I like chatting. He's had a little experience. Thank you Graham for coming on our podcast. Thank you, thank you. That does it for our first podcast episode from London will be back this month with more conversations from our trip across the Pond and are huge thanks to the BBC folks who helped bring us to the UK. That's Fiona Campbell, Jeremy Skeet and Katie Spending.

Thanks also to the team at the BBC's Millbank Studios for recording today's episode and Tom in particular, Thank you Tom. I want to give a shout out to our team at Stitcher that's Gianna Palmer, Nora Richie and Jared O'Connell. And thank you as always to my team at Katie Kirk Media Beth Demaz, Emily Bena and Alison Bresnik. And one more reminder to please subscribe to our show. If you do, you'll never miss an episode. It also helps us to get the word out. Thanks also to everyone

who has left us reviews on Apple Podcasts. It really helps us out. Remember we love hearing from you, especially Brian and it makes his day and he walks around with his chest a little puffier than usual, which is saying something that You can email us at comments at Current podcast dot com or call and leave a message at nine to four four six three seven operators are standing by. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll talk to you next week. Cheerio,