Life can be a lot, and it helps to have a therapist by your side. Register at talkspace dot com to connect with a licensed therapist within days for virtual support. Talkspace is in network with major insurers no insurance. Now get eighty five dollars off of your first month with promo code Katie when you go to talkspace dot com slash Katiekuric. Hi everyone, I'm Katie Kuric and this is next question. I recently had a chance to sit down
with my friends Christina Applegate and Jamie Lynn Sigler. I don't know if you've heard, but they've got a new podcast. It's called Messi, and they were nice enough to have me on and MESSI. It was in the best possible way. You know, I'm usually the one asking the questions, but I have to admit it was pretty fun to answer a few for a change. The Messy podcast is all about life's curveballs. Jamie Lynn and Christina have one in common. They have both been diagnosed with multiple sclerosis or MS.
The point of their podcast is that everyone goes through hard things. It's pretty unavoidable, but there's real strength in being honest and open about just how much life sucks. Sometimes. We laughed, we cried, We talked about the good times and the bad times. Times we've been sick. And I'm not talking about the cold drill here I had in this interview, but the big sea cancer. In fact, Christina and I bonded as fellow breast cancer patients. So yeah,
MESSI a little, but we had a blast. Here's Christina and Jamie Lynn's conversation with yours. Truly, Hi, ladies, I'm so happy to see you both. I'm such a big fan of both of you. And I've apologized because I have a bad so I apologize for my voice, which sounds like I got talking like that.
We can all, do you want us all to do it.
A great cartoon vo like maybe you should like audition for a voice risin right now and just be like I can play that little weird bunny.
I was thinking, though, you know, aside from that, when I don't have a cult that I was thinking I should do some voice over work because my voice, I think, because people listen to me for so many years. A lot of times I'll be out and about and I won't have any makeup on and I'll just you know,
be whatever. But when I start talking, that's when people say, wait a second, because I think when people watch the Today Show, they actually were doing other things so they listened more than they watched, and so as a result, for certain demographic, my voice is very recognizable.
Well, yes, I mean you're Katie Couric.
That's the thing, Like, there's a lot of people we've had on here that we can't just be like you're bloody blah. It's like you're Katie Kurt like that. It's its own poster of name. And I was going to say something about for me when I would try to be incognito, my nose gave me away.
Really.
Everything else was like I could hide it all, but if the nose my weird.
No, you have a very I'm.
Not trying to make it about me. I'm just saying it's so funny that there's certain things.
About that have to call that a ski slope nose.
Yes, yes, you could jump right off of it and then also see into my brain.
Oh yes. And she used to also call it a don't rain on me nose.
Oh I get it now.
Yeah, that's very cute.
There you go.
Well we cold no nasally voice or not we are so thrilled to have you here with us because you have been somebody who I mean one of my first memories of somebody that's taken something deeply personal and tragic that's happened in their life and decide to share it publicly and heal publicly and have it turned into a purpose.
And I think you were really ahead of your time when you did that, and I would love I'm sure you've shared so much about that experience, but you know, what were the lessons and what were the things that you turned to that gave you the strength to do that as we sort of navigate the space right now ourselves, And can.
I can I post ps on that so you can answer both being a woman in your field, like I don't even know, like how you broke that, you know. I hate to always say that the glass ceiling because I think we've used that a lot, but it's the Yeah, you broken in and you are a legend.
So okay, So her question, then my question there you.
Go, Okay, that's how we do.
Things, all right, Okay, So Jamie's question first, I think it's so interesting the changes we've witnessed, the evolution in people's willingness to talk about things that were once taboo, you know, that were once too private, too personal and somehow embarrassing.
And I think that, you.
Know, everybody has shit that happens to them in their lives, and you know, I think diseases in particular need to be out in the open. So I really applaud both of you for doing this podcast. I'm sure you know, and your producer, Alison, who's also my friend, has told you how important it is and how important it is
to build community. And I think since my husband was diagnosed and died of colorectal cancer in nineteen ninety eight, he was diagnosed in April of nineteen ninety seven, there really has been a shift in attitudes about people's willingness
to talk about things. And I think, you know, you can say a lot of negative things about the Internet and social media and our digital lives and how so much of what we should be doing has been taken over by a more virtual existence, but I think it has allowed people to form communities and to be heard and be seen and be helped by people who are
in a similar situation. And you know, I am just amazed, almost on a daily basis, people coming forward and talking about things in a way that destigmatizes illness, in a way that brings attention to illnesses and diseases, and a way that the collective voices helped demand more research into various diseases. You know, I just interviewed Francis Collins, who ran the NIH, the National Institutes of Health from two thousand and nine till twenty twenty one, and he was
diagnosed with prostate cancer. He was part of a clinical trial. It became more aggressive, he had surgery, and you know, he wrote an article in the Washington Post about it. And I said to him, Francis, he lets me call him Francis. He's like a geneticist. He you know, mapped
the human genome. He's a brainiac, like unparalleled brainiac. But he said, you know, I just whenever you can give people information and do the things that I mentioned forum community, and in his case, you know, he wanted men to know that if they have elevated A, they should check their PSA and if they have elevated PSAs what that means.
And I just think the world is there's so much information and so much stuff out there that anytime we can use whatever our situations are to help people live healthier, happier lives. It's kind of, I think, imperative, and I think for the three of us, we have platforms, you know, we are known individuals, and I think it does have a lot of impact when someone shares a really intensely personal experience and is willing to come forward and talk
about things. So I felt at the time, just to get back to your question, Jamie, sorry, I'm so long winded, that the Today Show was such an incredible platform. Know, we had millions of people watching. This was before iPhones
and the fragmentation of media. You know, it was kind of a destination for a lot of people because there were there were limited options, right If you wanted to know what was going on in the world, you read your paper, you turned on to MPR, your local radio, or you turned on a morning show.
Right.
And I just felt, God, it would be criminal if there's ways to prevent this disease from happening to someone else, if there are ways to keep fathers and mothers and sisters and brothers and sons and daughters, et cetera, et cetera alive, because you can get screened for something. I felt it was almost criminal not to take advantage of my platform. And that's why, you know, you know, looking
back on it, it seems so natural. I have learned so much about colorectal cancer during my husband's illness, and I felt, well, I felt really obligated to share it with millions of people and tell them there are things you can do that will prevent this disease, that will
prevent a premature death. That you know, our daughters were six and two when Jay died, and he was so ripped off, and I just I thought, if I can save one life, if I can get one person to get screened, if I can get one person to talk to their doctor, if I can get one person to be aware of symptoms like blood in your stools or un explained weight loss, or the whole panoply of reasons that someone might have colorectal cancer.
I mean, why wouldn't I?
So I think I think it's it's really wonderful that now it's become much more sort of the status quo. I was just I don't know, I was scrolling Instagram and I saw someone I don't know who she is, but I think she was filling in for Lennon Doyle on her podcast, and I think I gathered that she has breast cancer and she's talking about dense breasts. And I was diagnosed with breast cancer two years ago. And I've been, you know, talking till i'm blue, because.
You know, we're sisters in that respect, Yes, exactly, and I was, and I don't want to stop your thoughts, but I'm very interrupted.
Jamie knows this.
I'm interrupted only because no, I don't know, because I will all forget my thought.
Yeah, and that all super bummed that I didn't.
How old were you when you were diagnosed?
Thirty six?
Good lord?
And immediately, you know, I kind of went on the you know, I was on Oprah and stuff and I was all like, oh, I love my boobs and yay, this was such a blessing. And I was so full of shit, Katie. I was so full of shit about
how I actually was feeling. But I did start a foundation called Right Action for Women, which I think you helped us out with at some point, with Stand Up to Cancer, which we will get into, of course, because that accomplishment is like I'm going to start to cry, beyond incredible and thank.
You for always sorry I'm crying. Thank you for always having me there.
But you know, I started right extra for women to get MRIs, for women who are of high risk, and like I was so angry that like young women were not able to get MRIs because of insurance.
But I know it is so frustrating.
I mean, now it's like it's a little bit easier, but at that time it was out of pocket thirty five hundred dollars for them to get it.
I still think it's very difficult, you know, for a lot of women to get I think you're right if you have a family history or you're you know, I'm brunchion, but a rock arge or other genetic mutation that makes you at higher risk.
All I just got really super No, that's okay. I don't have my period anymore.
Oh well, that's okay. Listen, it's all of this stuff is really hard. And it's interesting that that you said your TV appearances after your diagnosis weren't emblematic about how you were actually feeling. And I think, you know, the flip side of this is, you know this people people coming forward and and sort of framing their situation in a way that just isn't true or real hashtag warrior.
That's that's something that like Jamie and I are like so against.
We're like, no, you know what, it's okay to be super honest about how you're feeling because I think you're going to help more people if people can relate to that pain.
I think you're right.
But yeah, I used to have this fantasy, you know, when the sixteen or so years that I didn't tell anybody that I had MS. But oh, one day, when I'm better, I'll talk about it, when it's all wrapped up in a beautiful beau and I heal this thing, I'll talk about it. And what I realize now in this exercise of talking about it while I'm still very much in it, is this is what people need to hear. People connect when you're in it. People connect when you're
where they're at. There's and there's such comfort and strength that comes with that. Like you said, Katie, the community. And I feel so bolsterred by this MS and messy community. I shouldn't even just label it just MS. Our listeners in this messy community in a way that I have never felt before, just by being honest and vulnerable. And I attribute Christina to really bringing that out in me in a raw, authentic way that I wasn't able to quite tap into before.
Pissed off.
Yeah, and I think people need to hear you, and need to hear that anger, and they need to hear that honesty. I think because I mean, if you're just sort of a cock guide optimist and surely temper, I love that.
I'm running that down cock guyde optimist. I'm texting myself.
That's from South Pacific, right, that's right.
Okay, okay, but okay, you guys talk, I'm texting.
It's just it's just I don't think it's very useful because it's just a facade, you know.
Yeah, yeah, well you've I think you've always let us in into what's happening in your life with the intention of helping people, and that's always been very clear. But when you what then sparked your wanting to write your memoir?
You know, I was at the time, I think I was sixty four or sixty five years old.
I'm sixty seven.
Now, no, you're not.
I know she looks like she's no no no no no.
No no no no no. I'm fifty two. You're fifty five.
Oh, I'm fifty five.
You're earliest.
I'm the earliest. How did I get I got confused? All ladies and gentlemen, I'm only don't.
Look at and the wikipedias.
She's fine.
The only idiot, you guys, who actually has the date of the year I was born in my email address.
WTF? What is wrong with me?
But anyway, I think I had become you.
Know, I was at a certain age.
My daughters are older, they're now thirty two and twenty eight, and you know, I think I have led a very unexpected life and it's been fascinating and thrilling and heartbreaking, and you know, I mean all.
Of the feels as the kids used to say.
And I sort of thought, when you're a public figure and you all know this, probably better than anyone you get written about, right, people project whatever it is onto you. They control the narrative in many ways, and certainly it was true prior to social media, when now you know now there's disintermediation. You can go straight to people and you can share what you want to share, not through the prism of somebody who's writing something, who may have
an agenda, who has a certain take. And I think for me, the narrative had been controlled by other people, and I thought, you know, I think it's time before I forget everything, to tell my own story and to kind of share what it was like to be me during all these years. And you know, there I've had so many different chapters of my life, professional triumphs and disappointments, personal heartache.
And.
I've had loss, you know, through my husband and my sister and then my parents who lived to the age of ninety and ninety one. So I was very blessed that way. But my sister, Emily died of pancreatic cancer just three years after Jay died of calling cancer. So you know, I just I thought, if there's you know, I kind of did it as a gift to my kids because I always thought, I'm going to be the kind of mom who writes a letter every year and when they're eighteen, give them to give it to them
in a pretty box or something. But of course I never did, but I wanted. I wanted to give it to my daughters. But I also thought, you know, I wanted to be really honest. My husband really encouraged me to be super honest. Now, he said, maybe you shouldn't have been quite so honest. But I thought, if there was any aspect of my life that could potentially be instructive for people, or fun or entertaining, or they could relate to it, I thought, why not? And so that's
why I wanted to do that. And I had never written a memoir. I'd written a couple of children's books, and I had a book of advice because I gave so many commencement addresses, and I'd call people I had interviewed and I'd say, what advice would you give these students? And they would write back really interesting things, and I thought, Wow, that would be a really cool book to get people for their graduation. But never had I really written a memoir.
And it's interesting that, Jamie, you say I let people in, because I really did try to have boundaries, you know. I tried to let people in when it would be useful for my information and would help them, but I also tried to protect my kids. And when my husband died, I really felt like that was his story to tell. I didn't want to exploit it, try to capitalize on it. I just wanted to help people learn what I have learned in that process. So I have through my whole life.
Try to not overshare too much because I think people talking about them as themselves and se is really tiresome.
You know, after the break Stand Up.
To Cancer it is all about collaboration, not competition. We'll talk about why that's so important right after this. Everyone needs someone to talk to and text with about life's challenges, and while girlfriends are great listeners, there are limits to your group chat. A talkspace therapist will give you an
objective perspective and professional guidance. Register at talkspace dot com to connect with the licensed therapist within days and you can start messaging back and forth and also schedule live video or audio sessions. Talkspace is in network with major insurers and copays are usually twenty five dollars or less no insurance. Now get eighty five dollars off of your first month with promo code Katie when you go to talkspace dot com slash Katie. Match with a licensed therapist
at talkspace dot com slash Katie Couric. We're back with Christina Applegate and Jamie Lynn Sigler.
But what you did so beautifully, my love, my friend, stand Up to Cancer? What seven hundred million dollars eight hundred million.
Oh oh hello, yes, okay.
Tell us about starting that that's.
That's wait, can I say something going to that event. For the years that I was asked by you to come, one time you had it was so powerful. You had Cheryl Crow, Melissa Etheridge and myself come out after I had just been had my first surgery and it was the three of us coming out like three survivors. It was like this powerful moment for me. For me, I don't know if anyone. I think it was powerful for everyone. It was like, we are going to be okay, and
you gave us that. You were telling us that we're going to be okay. You were standing up and saying I'm going to take care of you. And yes, we lost our dear friend during you know, the process of that, and yeah, but.
What you have done. And also on a side note, on the phones.
I would get other people's numbers and prank call them, like.
Like other actors.
I would just kind of like George, like Gwyneth palt your own people and I would just walk around and I find out what their number was, and then I'd call them and be like.
What are you wearing?
No, yes, I would. I would really.
I mean, of course I would answer the calls too, of course, but no, but I also would do that. Sorry, sorry Katie, but I have to entertain myself otherwise I get bored.
I don't blame you. I don't blame you, but.
You took a tragedy and literally probably saved millions of people's lives.
Well, listen, it was a team effort, and there is no I in team or cancer. And basically, you know, I had been really focused on colon's and colon cancer
and rectums and colearectal cancer. And Lisa Paulson, who was head of the Entertainment Industry Foundation, which is the philanthropic arm of Hollywood, you know, she and I were talking and I said, you know, I don't know if you all remember there was a period of time where they would do these television specials for very important, very worthy causes, for example, after the tsunami and after nine to eleven
and after all sorts of horrific events. And I said, you know, it's not a competition, but so many people are affected by cancer. We need to really do something about that.
So every day, every day I have a friend, Oh, I'm gonna cry, and I'm going telling you this because I want I want us to hear it, because I want this girl to be prayed for. She's thirteen years old. She was just diagnosed with the cancer that they said she has maybe six months to live. And she's a friend of my friend's child who I've known the you know, the friend, but not the girl. And she doesn't even know, she doesn't know the severity of the cancer that she has.
And it's like this was just two nights ago. I was woken up at four o'clock in the morning by my friend who lives in Nashville, to tell me, please help please pray, please help me pray. You know, with like our rever Michael and our people like our everyone get together, but like it's affected every single day, there's your hit.
Well, every minute a person is diagnosed with cancer, and two out of three men and one out of three women will be diagnosed in their lifetimes. And you know, it is it is such a it is such an evil disease. It can kind of outwit its fiercest foes. You know, they can come up with a medication or some kind of therapeutic approach that can be really effective. But cancer is so wily it can figure out how
to get around so many different treatments. And now they're doing a lot of really exciting stuff with immunotherapy, which is, you know, bolsters your immune system to squash the cancer, but it is painstakingly slow, and you know, we need to support these scientists. So in addition to doing these televised events, our whole model is collaboration instead of competition.
You know, even with worthy causes, with different nonprofits and organizations that pop up to do really worthy, important things, there becomes this competition.
Myself, when I had breast cancer, I saw all the groups say, well, you can't go to this one if you went to this one, as it's so crazy?
Are you not so like?
But that's the way it is, because I think people become there's something sort of human nature about there. They become very territorial. And I've seen this time and time again. You girls, I keep saying you guys, time and time again, with so many different great philanthropic organizations. So you know, we said, why can't you know, if two heads are better than one, aren't ten heads better than two? Why
can't we collaborate? Why can't we share research because one of the things I found when Jay, my husband was sick, is that it was so siloed and and it was hard.
You know.
I would call cancer institute, research institutions and academic centers and pharmaceutical companies and they were all kind of working on their own and they weren't really talking to each other. And at first the scientists were like, we're not doing that. We're not going to share our research and our tissue samples.
And then they became.
So energized by this group approach that some of them even go on vacation together now. So I think we just tried to change the paradigm of how cancer research was done. And I'm very involved with a film that's coming out on Amazon about Brian Wallack and his wife.
I watched the trailer today. I'm still emotional about it. I think that crime are so amazing.
Tell us all about it.
Yeah.
So it's Brian Wallack and Sondra Abravea, and they met working on the Obama campaign. They are the nicest, cutest, smartest, coolest couple. And I read an article about them in Politico and I was involved and still am in Project Als because my friend Jennifer Estes, who had this theater company called Naked Angels in New York. I don't know if you all knew Jennifer.
I didn't know her, but Naked Angels I knew.
Yes.
So Jennifer died of ALS, and I had become very close to her and her sisters, and they've done amazing research. So I was pretty familiar with ALS in general. And I read an article in Politico written by a guy named Sam Stein, and I was so moved by this article and I called Sam Stein. I DMed him on Twitter now X and I said, Hey, Sam, that was such an incredible piece. And I had read in the article that Brian's roommate at Yale had been following him
around for three years. I said, it says they're working on a documentary. I'd love to be helpful in any way I can, because I was just so taken by this couple. And so I did it. During the pandemic. I did a zoom with Sondra and Brian, and you know, we sort of fell in love and we become good friends. And I just am an executive producer. I helped with some of the funding, not a ton and and now Amazon is going to air it, I think starting next month. I believe we're going to the premiere in l a h.
Next Monday Night. But it's it's just a very inspiring story, you know. I think people don't know what they'll do or how they're how they'll react until it actually happens to them. I don't know how how I would honestly with the whole no.
I mean hosting, we talk about like MS right and what where where where did we think this was going to be? Like how where in our minds did this happen? And I know als is? I mean, I'm not comparing interesting. But I love that in part of it he wants to help people with we call it multiples. That's that's how we pronounce it.
You did.
But like his mission, the fact that he turned it into a missions Yes.
Freaking beautiful. I cannot wait to watch it.
I'm so happy for love and life, Yes right.
For love and Life. And the subtitle is no ordinary campaign, No ordinary campaign.
You know.
I have friends of mine sometimes that will say to me, like Jamie, I don't know how you do it, Like I would never be this way in your situation. And I think it's like what you said, Katie, you just don't know what you would do until you're faced with these things. And I am a believer that we are given things for a reason for our growth, and certain of us are given things and that have a platform.
And I don't like my reason, Jamie, I don't like Well.
I think it's given Christina my voice. I think it's given Christina a voice. But aside from that, I just I think that it's it's so much of who you
are and this person. Like these stories like ours and Brian's and yours there they're meant to give perspective, They're meant to give encouragement, They're meant to give life and and and I am so as heartbreaking as it is to watch and to experience myself, I wouldn't I truly wouldn't change it, as hard as that is for me in some days, as much as it breaks my heart to struggle physically, I really don't want to know who I am without without MS and I and I not
to think that Brian would, you know, wish he had had a als in his life, but what he's doing with his life because of it will change the course of so many people's lives and that that is that is a life well lived, you know, and I think that they're really an example of that, and I'm I'm so excited for people to see that. And again, no surprise that you're involved in a project like.
Jamie, why do you always fuck my hearty? Sorry? Sorry Katie Carl.
Christine Applegate.
Okay, the reason I started talking about this movie about Brian and Sondra is I think for neurodegenerative diseases that they would it would serve them well, the communities and the scientists to me to be more collaborative because so
much of this I think they have. You know, listen, I'm not a doctor or scientist, but there are many similarities but among these diseases, and I know Brian is really stoked to try to kind of almost model a whole consortium of scientists after this stand up to cancer idea to work together. You know, I'm very good friends with Michael J. Fox and his wife Tracy. He is
one of my personal heroes. But Parkinson's als MS, Huntington's Alzheimer's, you know, they all have you know, they have on the Venn diagram, there's areas of overlap, and I hope that somebody will take the lead, and maybe it can be you two to or maybe it can be people who are listening in this community to say, how can we make this happen? You know, life is the art of the possible, and why can't we all collaborate? And my whole idea was we'll move science forward faster if
we collaborate instead of compete. But for some reason, it just isn't. It's not the default for a lot of us. We are competitive and you know, credit mongery and territorial you know, it's just human nature. So I hope that I hope that comes to pass because I do think it would be a really positive development for so many people.
Me too.
I hope for that for us, you know, for us who are disabled, you know, and and I know it I hate saying that word, but it is. It's the truth of kind of where we live and with immuno compromised and neuro stuff, and there has to be something. Oh God, I can't wait for the day that people just don't put ego and and.
All of that ahead of literally saving people's lives. I just don't get. It makes no sense.
To me, and you know, all these different diseases are vying for funding, so it's very tough, you know, But I don't know. I used to give speeches and say, you know, if you can put the entire in Cyclopedia Britannica on a tiny little microchip, right or I mean, I just it's so frustrating. And I think, by the way, I admire and respect scientists and medical researchers more than anyone in the world, and they get very little support or recognition from the general public. So I don't think
it's their faul. I think these diseases are just exceedingly complex. But I really, gosh, I just can't think of a more important cause for then to help people be well and to help figure out how to not only prevent these diseases, but treat these diseases and cure these diseases. When we come back, we talk all about Christina's role as Veronica Corningstone in one of my favorite movies, Anchorman, and we discuss our stripper names. How's that for tease?
That's right after this. If you want to get smarter, every morning with a breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and wellness and pop Culture. Sign up for our daily newsletter Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. We're back with Christina Applegate and Jamie Linz Siegler.
I'm going to like shift a little bit, Jamie.
You know I love to shift, go baby go, or as we used to say on The Today Show, on a lighter note.
I'm shifting only not because I don't want to keep talking about this, but I also want some nuggets from me. Yes, we had a guest on and this is something that we do with all of our guests. We just ask about little baby you. And we had a guest on last week who I said, who's little baby you? And she said, I wore saddle shoes, and so I kind of want to know little baby Katy. M little baby Katy and when when was the moment that this became your focus? But little baby Katy is who I wanted, like,
toddler Katy? What your shoes?
What? What was your street like?
Like?
What did it smell? Like?
What is my stripper name?
What's your name? No, we don't do that.
No, I love my name. What'same is?
Is?
Either?
So I lived on fortieth Street and you can't have fortieth Street, but I had two other streets that were perpendicular to fortieth streets, so I would be either Pansy Chesterfield, Oh God, or spicy Woodstock.
Oh my god, what's yours? Jame? I love it. I love your spicy Woodstock.
Did you compare wait Mine's Randy Sutton not as sexy as Katie's Mirandy.
You had a pet named Randy? I did.
I had a dog named Randy.
Our first dog I was Kicky lookout.
Oh well that works, It totally works. You look out, look Kiky lookout? That works? And what kind of was it? A dog named Kiki or a cat?
It was a cat who was eaten by coyotes in the camp. Oh, anyway, I had my cats. We only had cats growing up. But my first cat was Pansy, and Pansy was a black cat. And my second cat was Spicy and I named her after that commercial. Oh mom, Ama, that's a spicy meatball.
God.
Yes, that's so cute.
Anyway, Young Katie, Sorry, yeah, we digressed. I mean, honestly, it's so predictable. I was the youngest of four kids, so I was always smiling, and my sister and their friends and their boyfriends. I had two older sisters and an older brother, and they would call me smiley and I would flirt with a paper boy, Ralph Osca. I was just a very phototypical youngest child.
And where lays At some point after we I know.
I loved Ralph Janaska what Ralphie I think we called him? And yeah, and I guess I don't know what shoes I wore.
I wore.
I did wear saddle shoes because I was a cheerleader, of course, and back back in the day cheerleaders wore saddle shoes with their uniforms.
Yeah, but what was the moment, Like, I don't, I know, it's like a weird thing because people always ask.
Me, like when you wanted to become when you wanted to become a bestmony And.
I was like, my mom had no money and I had to help pay the rent.
So that's how it happened.
But I've talked about that at no, you were in cute, But like, what was it?
I mean, I mean, it wasn't.
It wasn't like suddenly I asked Barbara streisand I asked Barbara streysand went Sandan No, I mean I interviewed her on my my talk show. And I'm also fascinated like by origin stories and what you know that movie Sliding Doors, and how like one decision changes everything and if you had done something different, the course of your life would be dramatically different. But for me, it wasn't like this epiphany or this aha moment like I'm going to be
a TV journalist. It was basically I think it suited who I was and am in that I never met a stranger.
I'm extremely outgoing. I love to write. I love words.
We used to have to bring a new word to the dinner table every night, a new vocabulary word.
My dad would make us do that.
Oh I love that.
Yeah, And basically I wanted to go into maybe advertising. I wanted to do something creative and fun. And my dad had been in public relations and had also been a newspaper man. He'd written for the Atlanta Constitution and United Press. He was an editor there, and I think he saw in me something that would align with a
career in journalism. So that's really how it happened. And I was lucky and I worked hard, and you know, during college, I worked at different radio stations and I knew sort of kind of what I wanted to do. And then and I worked really hard, and I saw people succeeding, and I had this maybe lack of humility to say, well, what do they have that I don't have. I'm just as good as they are. I can be successful even when people told me I was terrible at
my job. So I think I had this. I was just persistent and thought, you know, I really believe Malcolm Gladwell is right. It takes ten thousand hours to become proficient at something, and I just needed to do it more and I needed to hone my craft, as they say, and that's how it happened. And I was very, very fortunate. But I also worked extremely hard. But there, you know, there was kismet involved in all kinds of things, and I think there isn't anyone's career, you know, kind of
right time, right place. There's so many talented people out there, you all, I mean so many. One thing social media has taught me is good lord. There are a lot of incredibly creative, talented people out there, and I think
we've all been very lucky for whatever reason. We You know, Jamie was on probably the most successful TV show and TV history, and Christina, you know how long was married with children on I mean, you became sort of a household name and fixture and then dead to me was so so good so, and you've done a lot of other stuff. You've done Broadway. I remember when you were in Sweet Charity, right, I should have actually looked at all your cvs.
But more I got on.
This, But no, you're not supposed to look at our IMAD buzz. That's why I was calling him the buzz. It's IMDb. But I was going to say because earlier I asked you about, you know, the glass ceiling. And I was in a movie called Anchorman, and I based my character on Jessica Savage, who was going up in a in a very male dominated world of news in journalism.
And that name Veronica Corny Star, so you're you're you're close enough, take a.
Sip, another great tripper name.
But it was Veronica Cornstone.
Veronica.
I'm just messing with you.
But no, but Christina, can I tell you I love that movie very much and I loved you in it.
I just want you to know that if Ron does not show up, I am ready to go on.
Sweetheart.
You and I have had this discussion a million times, there's never been a woman anchor.
Mister Harkin.
This city needs its news, going to deprive them of that because I have breasts, exquisite breasts. Now, I am going to go on, and if you want to try and stop me, bring it on, because I am good at three things, fighting, screwing, and reading the news. Now I've already done one of those today, So what's the other one going to be?
Huh?
You were so funny, Thank you.
But I'm bringing this up because I read Golden Girl, which was I think was Jessica Savage's book, right, And I know I wasn't at the time supposed to say that. It was kind of loosely based on her kind of trajectory in that world of men. So I can only imagine what I had asked before is, what, how did you just kick that motherfucking door down, girl, Katie.
I'm sorry, I'm going to say it, Katie, motherfucking courage. I'm sorry. I didn't.
I didn't.
Really, I'm looking at the name of the book because I read that book too, and I was so sad. I'll never forget. My mom came into my bedroom. I was busy. My mom and dad in Arlington, Virginia, and she came in one morning and say said, Jessica Savage has died, and she was so.
Mom did the same thing. That's crazy.
She was thirty six years old.
Yeah, every single night.
Isn't that crazy?
So young?
So young?
And that was and it was much worse for Jessica than it was even for me. You know, Barbara Walters, My friend Susan Page just wrote a book about Barbara, who was really remarkable. And when she was on the Today Show, the male anchors had to ask were it was required that they asked three questions before she could ask one, and it was just so obnoxious.
And oh my god.
You know, listen, there was still a lot of sexism when I came up the ranks, but it was slowly changing, and I think it's changed even more now. You wonder if it's because so many meat outlets. It's been so fragmented. It doesn't really have a place in the culture at once did when Tom Brokaw and Peter Jennings and Dan Rather did the news right and they were at the epicenter of journalism every single night. Yeah, you've seen many
more women doing well in media. I mean, I mean gosh, it's a struggling industry right now for a whole host of reasons. But you know, I felt like at the Today Show I was given a lot of opportunities. The executive producer at the time was very young, named Jeff Sucker. He was in his twenties. He gave me lots of opportunities. I think he was a different generation than a lot
of the executives who had been there before. And I think I just you know, and I really respect and admire Brian Gumbel, but he's a little bit of a male chauveness pig, as we used to say, and back in the day, wait, can.
I do this? Let's do it live?
Oh that's I know.
But I just had to say that we're going live. Let's do it live.
We're doing it live, and that I think that was actually what inspired that inspired Anchorman.
So you see, oh really, oh my god, I had no idea anyway. But but all right.
I think that, you know, it was hard at times, but I also think I had a lot of opportunities. So I don't like to do the woe is Me thing, And I think I just love my work. I love telling stories, I love talking to people. I love learning from people. I love trying to understand this crazy world we're in. I just I love I love people people.
But you're carved out your voice, you know what I mean? In a panel of that's male dominated, you carved out your space and what your your voice and how you could deliver and no one else could do that. And that's and that comes from like you said, you know, you always believed why not me? You paved a beautiful way.
I think people are doing incredible work and there's a lot of great journalism happening now. I think there's also a lot of shitty, terrible false journalism, manipulated, cherry picked, distorted information that comes through your feed, and you know, it's it's really hard. It's a very hard environment. But I think for me, if I had to say, not only was it Jamie that I thought why not me? But I also thought, I'm going to be me. I am going to be who I am. I cannot fake it.
I hate pretentious, faky people. They grossed me out and I was like, I'm not going to be I'm not
going to pretend I'm anyone or anything I'm not. And I made that decision early on And I remember John Chancellor, he always pronounced a. Chancellor wrote me a lovely letter when I was named the anchor the Today Show, and he said something like the camera is the world's best bullshit direct a bullshit detector or BS detector, And basically I think he was saying it will come through if you're not being who you are, Like viewers aren't stupid, you know, and they are going to know your essence
and who you are.
He's like left me like, are they are they not stupid?
Well, we can treat them like they're stupid, but they're not, you know.
You know, you you really hope they're not.
And yeah, and I think there are a lot of really I think unfortunately, sometimes the people with the loudest voices have the smallest brains. And I think there are so many smart, thoughtful people out there who understand you need to have a nuanced conversation that their issues are complex. It's not an easy sound bite and you have to
sometimes think dialectically. Yes, And and I think in this very tribal black and white world we live in, you know, we feel pushed to take sides and push to say one thing or the other, when maybe it's a combination of both, and I don't know, it's it's it's a very it's a very fraught time in our in our information ecosystem, I think.
But yeah, yeah, yeah, I feel that. Well, what are you to tell us about, Katie Kirk Media, your slate of projects and all your what you hope, your hopes and dreams for it.
Well, you know, I think I realized and I think one thing I am good at at is being prescient, like looking at the world around me and kind of anticipate, painting how things are going to change. And I think visa v journalism, I realized that, you know, people were not watching television at you know, what is it called appointment viewing?
Right right?
You all witness that in your industry that people were watching things when they wanted to see them. You know, first it was TVO and then other things, and then of course streaming took over, and I saw the same thing happening for news. You know, people that you had to really go where people were, and now they're everywhere, and they're a million different tributaries that you know, lead
to the collective consciousness. And by the way, oftentimes it doesn't because everybody's creating their own little echo chamber and ecosystem, right, They're all kind of that, as my friend Nicole says, they're getting affirmation, not information. But anyway, I saw, I witnessed all these things changing, and I thought, gosh, even and I did a syndicated talk show in twenty eleven and twenty twelve, I thought, I kind of feel like
I'm writing on the back of a dinosaur. I feel like the world is changing and I'm hanging on to traditional media in a way where this is not where the puck is going.
So I went.
I did a syndicated talk show which really just did in the line with the kind of things I'm interested in what an afternoon audience really wanted to watch.
And I don't blame them.
They wanted to watch sort of more fun, lighthearted, fair and for all my you know, quote unquote pirkiness. I'm actually a pretty serious person, you know, I really care about important issues and I'm really I really try to learn every day.
So anyway, I went to Yahoo.
To try to to really cultivate a digital media operation, but they just really that wasn't that wasn't really a good fit because I don't think they were really there that wasn't in their DNA. And I thought, but boy, I really want to keep working. I love my job. I think I have something to offer. And I said to my husband, why don't we just create our own thing, because you know, I came up in the business when you could be a household name. You know, Christina, You said,
I can't name any mail journalists now. And I think it's much harder to penetrate, you know, the consciousness for all the reasons I've told you, you know, with so many options and.
This paradox of choice.
So I thought, why don't I create something I can mentor some young people.
I can be a job creator.
And I've never been an entrepreneur, and I thought, gosh, that would be a really great learning experience. My husband is very smart in business. He was in finance, and he said, gosh, why don't we work together. If not, I don't think we'll ever I'll ever see you. So I said, great, And so we created this media company. We have a newsletter called wake Up Call. We have
a very vibrant website. I do a podcast like you All call Next Question, and we do I do important interviews, and I think because I've established myself as a you know, a professional who knows what she's doing. A lot of big people will talk to me. You know, Kamala Harris did an interview with me not too long ago. Mike is familiar with her, Michael McFall, who was the US ambassador to Russia, you know, Richard Haas my friend, who's head on ahead of the Council on Foreign Relations.
So and a lot of people.
Because of the name recognition, they're willing to talk to me, which is so nice. And I think they know that I am you know, I come prepared and I think they trust me honestly, and so I've been able to do that. And we want to get more people into the fold. So you know, I'm not doing everything, but we also are our financial model and then I'll stop talking. Is working with brands that are really interesting.
Just don't stop talking. I'm pretty sure I want you to adopt me.
Okay, brands, brands that are you know as Trust in institutions, government media, all kinds of our institutions has declined. Trust, believe it or not, in companies has increased. If you look at the Edelman Trust Barometer, if you look at the Business Roundtable. People are lucky.
Can you stop trying to make me feel dumb?
Oh no, no, no, no, But I'm kidding.
I'm kidding. I'm just kidding.
I know no word.
There was a word you said earlier. It was like almost like homunculus, but it was like I don't know what the word was. And I was like, never heard that word. And I value myself as really really smart. I literally have an etymology dictionary next to my bed because I love words.
But you said something that I never heard it in my life.
I was like, what was it?
If it started with a C.
I was texting Alison like what was that word? It was like, come cause I don't know. And it was like I think I need to bring it into my verbiage. I need I need to take it out.
I love words, love words.
I'm a word. I'm a word nerd.
Okay, So can I tell you a word that okay that people always misuse that I misused for a long time?
Well, there are there are a few.
Oh, there's so many.
I'm sure all of us nonplussed. What do you think nonplus mean? It's French, It's not plun Do you think it means my show.
It means not to be don't look it up, don't I'm not.
Not to be messed with, Like you're not you don't know because you're dumb, because you don't know the word that.
Actually, that was a good. That was a good.
That was a definition of the word.
Try Yeah, no, no, no, it's good because most people think it means unbothered.
No, it's like you're you're not in it it, like you don't get it.
You're somebody seized and confused. Yes, that's yeah, I know what that word. The other one, the other word that bothers me. But the people say is exponentially, and they use it incorrectly constantly correct Well, exponentially is It's it's almost like a math kind of thing. It's like going down here to hear with like you know, money or you know, like in government and and you know it's changed exponentially. You can't say that you went to therapy
and you changed exponentially. That's actually not the definition. But I feel like Webster's Dictionary has changed it now for this generation that they can apparently use that word however they want to use it.
Well, it says with reference to an increase more and more rapidly. Our business has been growing exponentially. Mathematics by means of or as expressed by a mathematical exponent values distributed exponentially according to a given time constant. Whatever the hell that means. But I know what you mean. Okay, you want Okay, that's good, that's you know. Another one is people say primer instead of primmer. Primer is something you put under a coat of paint. Primmer is like a lesson.
And I've never even heard.
The word life you have there No, no, either one of us I've heard.
I'm going to start giving you like a word of the day.
Oh please wait, I have to show you this case.
I guess a primer is what you put on your face before me.
I was gonna say, I I put makeup primer.
On right prime?
Well that's I'm talking about, Like, can you give me a primer on what happened in Afghanistan?
Right? Uh?
There's a small introductory book on a subject, a short informative piece of writing. And I'm going to say, Siri, how do you pronounce p R I M E R when it's a short informative piece of writing? I pronounced primmer? The textbook to rhyme with trimor.
There you go. Okay, here's my book. It's next to my bed.
What is it?
Etymology, smarty pants, it's the origin of words.
I love that. I'm going to get that book.
Oh there's there's so many of them. I have like dog eared. Look at I have dog eared of words that I love. But I love the etymology of words. It's like there their source of where they came from.
And by the way, can I just finish the thought on my our company? No, I was just going to say, So we work with brands that care about big issues. They need to They need to care about more than the bottom line, not only for consumers, but also for employees.
You know, employees want to work for a company that they that they feel good about, right, And so we have big brands like Procter and Gamble and Exact Sciences and all these other places who we align with to tell stories about things they care about.
Thank you, I love that so much. Okay, so this this game you all you have to do is tell Madame Christina five favorite movies of yours. Don't think about it. This is how she says, don't think about too much about it. Say them, and she's going to be able to basically tell you exactly who you are because of those things.
And there are movies that you could watch over and over and over again. So no thinking five and I'm going to write them down.
Okay, something's got to give the Shawshank redemption. The sound of music, West Side Story, Rear Window, I don't know. Oh goodbye, mister Chips, the nineteen thirty eight version with Robert Donnaugh.
I didn't see that.
It's so good, it's so sad.
Don't tell me things. Hold on, Okay, you guys talk while I meditate on this.
Shashank was one my list as really.
I love that movie.
I do too. I do too.
Oh my god, it's done.
It's done. It's great.
She knows she's got it.
Justice.
You want justice for yourself, for your loved ones, for your childhood, for the work that you do.
You want justice. It's like, it's it's.
Really clear why Rear Window is a man trying to figure out what the heck is going on over there?
Right?
Yeah? You want justice, person.
You want to see you like everything here. I wrote them down. Everything here is about the puzzle of life.
And I think that.
You yeah, that was I didn't put justice against the Nazis, right.
Yeah, Nazis and singing and uh and singing and curtains were clothes. Okay, she wanted justice to whatever. Okay, sorry, I didn't put that one down.
And Maria wanted justice she did, she did, and she was the underdog, right Jamie.
Yeah, this is all like an underdog going for what is truth? Like it's so freaking.
Son of a woman, scent of a woman. Yes, oh rah, oh.
That was with your cold.
That was good, thank you.
I do think I do. I do care about justice and fairness, So I think that troubably right.
Yeah, maybe from her kid if you saw stuff on the playground, did you ever see like kids being mean to another kid and you wanted to take care of them?
I don't know, because everything you're.
Doing is about someone wanting JF and someone playing chess in life and trying to figure out how can we make this better for everyone else?
I do like I.
Am very acutely aware of people, Like if somebody's standing by themselves at a party, I'm sure you guys do this too. I always walk up to them and talk to them. Or I remember there was a girl in my piano group who never got the prize, And I said, Missus Richmond, I hope I hope that gosh, what was her name, Joscelyn or something, I hope she wins a piano pen today and Missus Richmond gave her the pin. And I do think I'm very sensitive when somebody else is hurting.
I think that's evident.
In your movies, but also evident in the incredible legacy you have given to all of us all over the world with your journalism, your kindness, your brilliance. Mine.
Oh quit, Christina, You're good. You have four I think we have another four hours to finish.
Good good, good boobies that are healthy. Yeah, good boobies are healthy and those things.
What about pleasure?
So I'm so happy.
I'm so happy to do this you guys, and anything I can ever do for you or for the MS community, I want to just say again, thank you for what you're doing to bring people together. I admire people who I have a friend named Ali who was diagnosed with Parkinson's. I think she's forty seven and I met her because we met at the Michael J. Fox Walk in Central Park a few weeks ago.
And you know she is.
Using her platform to help other young women who have Parkinson's And gosh, isn't it a gift when you can make people feel less alone?
I mean, what is better than that? Honestly nothing?
A cure for all our things? We love that too.
Yeah, but yes, that's the.
Only thing I wish better.
But other than that, thank you always for what you have done for this world, like I don't think you read the world and for us. And we we usually do something where we pull a card, a spiritual card at the end, and we have never done it with the guest on.
We do it after they've left.
Oh but you want me to leave?
No, watch what I'm saying. We want you to stay.
Okay, I'm gonna pull my card now here we go. The deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain.
I think that says it all.
Who said that, Jamie? Is that a quote?
Khalil Gibron?
He wrote a very because he wrote the prophet. Yes, exactly. Wait, I want to read a quote for you all.
Oh, I love it.
There's also a nice quote that Michael J. Fox used recently in a speech he gave, and it was part of a letter by Albert Camu since we're doing a lot of French stuff Christina, and he wrote, in the middle of winter, I found there was within me an invincible summer.
I love that quote.
Beautiful, Okay, but the whole thing. You want me to read the whole thing or okay, my dear. In the midst of hate, I found there was within me an invincible love. In the midst of tears, I found there was within me an invincible smile. In the midst of chaos, I found there was within me an invincible calm. I realized through it all that in the midst of winter,
I found there was within me an invincible summer. And that makes me happy, for it says that no matter how hard the world pushes against me, within me, there's something stronger, something better, pushing right back.
Okay, Alan, say so send that and so it is.
And so thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me, a subject you want us to cover, or you want to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world, reach out. You can leave a short message at six oh nine five point two five five oh five, or you can send me a DM on Instagram. I would love to hear from you. Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers are Me, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz.
Our supervising producer is Ryan Martx, and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode, or to sign up for my newsletter wake Up Call, go to the description in the podcast app, or visit us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
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