Cancer Straight Talk is a podcast for Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center where hosts doctor Diane Reedy Lagunas has intimate conversations with patients and experts about topics like dating and sex, exercise and diet, the power of gratitude, and more. I love being her guest. Listen to Cancer Straight Talk. You'll learn so much. Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric and this is next question. Well, folks, we're taping this episode the morning after a pretty shocking Trump rally that took place
at Madison Square Garden. The rhetoric was more inflammatory than ever as if that's possible. My friend, comedian and cultural commentator Sam b is here today. Is my plus one. Sam. Hi, how are you? It's so good to see you.
I swear to God, you know what, There's nowhere i'd rather be than right here talking to you right now. I'll tell you right.
Oh good lord. We have so much to talk about. But first, how how have you been? I haven't seen you in person for quite a while. I miss you and your show, but you've been staying very busy, Sam, tell us what you've been up to? Very busy?
I did I did a one woman show called How to Survive a Mental pas, which I loved so much and it was probably just like one of the most fun creative experiences I've had in a really long time. So I'm going to do it more. I just don't know when. And I'm doing the Daily Beast podcast with Joanna Coles, which is super fun. It's like a it's a pretty great outfit and we get to like plunder their reporting in a really fun way. It's been I don't know, I'm just kind of going along for the ride. I like it.
And you're you're You're Canadian. You're in Toronto right now, I am. Do you have you have Canadian citizenship? Have you been thinking about that?
It's I'm just lightly scoping out neighborhoods, you know what I mean. Like, I'm not sure i'd go back to the neighborhood where I grew up, but I'm just like, that's interesting. Look at this delightful neighborhood with these coffee shops. This is very lovable. People aren't at the absolute end of their rope at all moments of the day and night. It's an interesting vibe.
I know, well, you can't say that about this country, right now you can kind of feel it in the air, the anxiety, the trepidation, the sphincter tightening that is going on. And whenever I can use the word sphincter, I like to embrace that. And why I couldn't think of someone who would be a better partner my plus one to talk to one of my favorite people, Van Jones, about what is happening right now in our country, because honestly,
I don't know what to make of it anymore. And that's why Van is going to explain it all to us. I think in many ways, Van Jones has been a kind of north star during the course of this election, although at times even his magnanimity that's a good word, look it up has been tested. So how do we get here? What does this say about us? Could Kamala have done anything differently? And what about Trump's closing argument? Van Jones? Welcome to Next Question with my co host Samantha Bee.
Helloathan, Hello, been blessed to be a guest with sam in the past, so it's good to be that.
It's nice to see and of course she loved me too. Van, can we please at that we.
Well, I mean that goes out. I think the global love affair with Katie Kuric is unending and all inclusive always.
Okay, all right, now you're going overboard. But thank you for being here, and Gosh, Van, we have so much to talk about. I saw you on Bill Maher on Friday night. I watched it last night because I had a wedding out of town and caught up with you there. Obviously, I watch you on CNN and big fan, Van, big fan, and you've.
Always been very kind and very encouraging. I sincerely appreciate it.
Really well, let's talk about Gosh. I guess the latest thing we need to talk about is what happened last night right here in New York City, not far from where I live at Madison Square Garden. Did you all watch this rally? Did you see clips of it? And what can I say? What did you think?
Look? You know I have a friend who I've been talking with her earlier in the day, and you know, she's she's frustrated with where the Democrats are a number of her issues. She's quite progressive, and she was like, I'm going to vote but and then I sent her the clip of this horrible bigot making fun of Mexicans is talking about. You know, they have so many babies they have They never pull out. They always come inside the same way that they came inside our country. Ha
ha ha. And when she heard the crowd, this massive crowd, one of Trump's biggest crowd, laughing, laughing, laughing and making fun of Mexican immigrants like her and Puerto Ricans, you know, she immediately started sending it around to her family members because like, this is a choice. You know, we have as always imperfect, you know, Democratic candidates, except for Barack Obama, they've all been imperfect. And then we have a literal clown car fascist who was doing like racist insult comedy
eight days away from an election. You know, there's a lot going on. Like I don't know if you guys know this, but there's literally a floating island of garbage in the middle of the ocean right now. Yeah, I think it's called Puerto Rico. I don't get it. Like, there's no if you need more information than that, And there there was no rebuke. There's nobody to come out and said that we don't believe in that. Well, no,
they love that. They are going to pull off the biggest con ever, and that they're going to get black some black people marginally more than what would have given them a vote, and some Latin people to vote for someone who is going to turn around and do a massive crackdown on black and brown communities. Colm was trying to lift people up. Trump wants to lock people up. And you know that's where we are eight days out.
Sam as a comedian, Yeah, I had to ask you about the quality of the humor. Obviously it was insulting, but it wasn't even funny, you know what the.
Crazy the thing that is so I mean, everything about it is so incredibly disheartening and I definitely watched it sitting on those side just kind of just like just like in a state of disbelief from like this is who you you know this comedian like Tony Hunchcliff, Like they hired him, they asked him to come and do this.
They know by the way, Sam, it's like a he's like.
Very well known for like roasting people. He's like a roast comic and he did you know he did one that Tom Brady wrote like he does really like outrageous, like like super just like hardcore, like pushing the boundaries that's like his signature. That's his signature. If you've watched one minute of his comedy, you know exactly what he's all about. So having him come to a political rally with tens of thousands of people there that's going to be watched like nationwide, is on purpose. It's an on
purpose dog whistle. When you pay this person to come and speak at your thing, you know what you're getting.
I wouldn't say it was a dog whistle, right, it was just it's just like a right, just like.
A blowhorn, Like you know, they all knew what was going to happen, and unfortunately I just kind of go, wow, that's so an intentional Like this is where your part is. This is where you want people to vote for you, but this is what this is what you have intentionally put out in the world as a representative of you and all the people that you stand for.
Like it's so awful.
I want to just I feel like I don't even know, I don't even know what to do, and it's working for them in a way because they're getting wall to wall free press for it, and I'm like, wow, this is like it's like Machiavellian. I'm like, I can't believe that anyone could look at this person and think that this crew of people could possibly be the president of all Americans. Is so disgusting to me on such a deep level, Like how dare you?
I think a lot of people, and we live in like the United States of Amnesia, right, A lot of people really have just kind of forgotten how bad it was, you know, in during the years, and I think people have I thinks a couple of these going on one as people remember that they were good economic times, they forget that that was the Obama economy that Trump inherited. I mean Obama we had, we had seventy five straight months of job growth under Obama. He handed that off
to Trump. It actually slowed down under Trump, but he still had the good momentum from the Obama years. And then he started chasing off all the good people around him, and by the time he got to COVID, he was down to not the B team, not the C team, but the D team. He had taken Obama's playbook for a pandemic and put in a garbage cant someplace, dismountled
that whole function in the federal government. So we had a million, six hundred thousand extra Americans die because Trump had a d team around him and they had thrown away the eight teams playbook and didn't know what that well he was doing. I was talking about injecting bleach. So you had a worse economic performance under Trump. Only thing that Trump did for the economy was cut tactics
for rich people. He didn't pass Obamacare, he didn't do anything to help anybody, but he put his name on stimulus checks, and so people think that Trump was for them. So that was terrible. But then the thing that's even more awful is it going forward? People say, well, it wasn't so bad before. Democrats always scream hit, leer and racist. I don't have to listen. I said, you know what, honestly,
you have a point. If you're a conservative. We said Romney was unfit, we said we didn't like John McCain. You have a point to say. They Democrats always attack our nominee. And you might be rational and saying I'm not going to listen to Democrats, but you should listen to Republicans. You should listen to all the Republicans who serve with them. Do just listen to all the generals who serve with them, who are screaming and yelling and saying,
this guy is completely incompetent. You should listen to the Supreme Court that says now Supreme that the president can be lawless, which that was a restraint before. Now there's no restraint from the Supreme You have people who are Republicans saying he's a racist and a fascist, and you will no longer have You won't even have the D team. You're going to have the Z team around him in the White House. This is this is a very very serious threat that we're facing eighty days.
I want to know why you think people have amnesia. I think you know what are the root causes and the root reasons that you think people are gravitating to Donald Trump and the race is so tight.
I think social media. I think there's a big campaign from Russia, China and Roan to just discourage and distress progresses, and so I think that's more effective than that. Honestly, I think that RFK Junior supporting Trump has hurt us, hurt progressive and helped Trump more than people really understand. Because I do think that the make America healthy again Maha, that slogan does appeal to some people in the yoga and kil crowd and other people who.
The wellness community.
Wellness community has been pulled very far to the right, frankly objectively, in ways that I think people are not tracking. So I do think that there's that, But but yeah, I think people are hurting and uncertain. I think that you know, it sucks to go at the grocery store and have to take stuff out of your cart and put it back on the shelf because you know, you're watching those numbers go up in a way that's kind
of scary. I think. I think the economy managed a lot of people, and you know, everything is twenty percent more expected than it used to be. And now that was a worldwide global phenomenon and we beat it back better, faster and quicker than era. But people don't like that kind of thing, and there's a lot of disinformation out there too.
I was going to say, do you think that people understand that Joe Biden. I mean, my husband and I talk about this because he thinks that Joe Biden has had impact on inflation. I say that it's sort of a worldwide trend, as you do, Van, But were there things that Joe Biden could have done to get prices down at the grocery store. Was flooding the economy with all the COVID money was flooding, you know, with adding to the deficit with student loan forgiveness. I'm not the
economy is not my strong suit. But were there things that were initiated by the Biden administration are not done that have led voters to feel that he could have had a bigger impact on these things?
Well? Look, possibly, though it's hard to tell. Look, and there were people the works of economists warning you might be putting too much gas on the fire by doing some of the investments and other things that needed to get done. But you know what, I think what people forget is a lot of that spending you know that Biden and Harris did on infrastructure. It's still that's that's long term, that's not it's not like they just poured it all on the streets. Everybody went and grabbed it
and like started buying cotton candy. Like long term investments in the country payoff over a long period of time, they also hit the economy over a long period of time. So look, I think you have to just look at the comparison. We got an inflation down faster than everybody else around the world. It was a global problem. There
were two things happening. You had the supply chains that had been you know, backed up, and demand that it had been held up because of the COVID pandemic globally, and so you know, once everything opened back up, prices went through the roof around the world. And you know, some of biden palsy frankly smart mantary policy from the Fed, which Biden had done the doing, also finally beat it back down. But you know, you're still up above where
you used to be. I think the thing people don't think about enough is Okay, I'm mad about inflation and prices today. So I'm going to vote for Donald Trump, who is going to make it all massively worse because both of his big ideas are inflationary. His big idea of putting your riffs on everything is going to drive up prices, and so you're either going to have to pay buy more expensive stuff overseas or largely more expensive
stuff from American producers. You might say that's great for long term you know, reshoring, but short term prices are going to go through the roof. And the other thing is grab all the immigrants thrown out of the country, which is then going to create a labor shortage, is going to drive up the price of labor, which is also inflationary. His two big ideas. If you don't like prices, now vote for this guy. He is Captain inflation. He
is mister Inflation. He is the father of inflation. That's what you're dealing with with Donald Trump.
Yeah, and it's not even just just amnesia, because it's also like disinformation campaigns like that are just hugging for force. It's like, you know, there's a proportion of the American electorate who thinks that Joe Biden dismantled Roby Waite and you just kind of go what and what now? And it's a large proportion.
It's not it's not tiny. I wanted to ask both of you, I mean, do you think the Democrats van are talking enough about these two highly inflationary policy proposals, i e. Tariffs and the Great Deportation And what the impact is really going to be. Why isn't that registering?
You know, I just don't know. I think the blizzard of bs that you have to go with every day from the joke. Yet, Babe, I mean, by the time you get finished talking about Arnold Palmer's penis and you know that's just clown joke. I mean it's so hard. I mean, that's part of the strategy. I guess it just to put just that a blizzard of bs. And it's hard to disappoint out basic stuff. Donald Trump will
make inflation worse by throwing out immigrants. It's hard. The other thing, it's hard, you know, thinking about this over the weekend with black men. Donald Trump literally has on his own agenda, not you know, part of twenty twenty five Donald Trumps that's not mine. Well, you know, Donald Trump never lies, it's always very honest. So we said this not is I have to agree with that. But Donald Trump's actual agenda forty seven is all about attacking
black men. It's literally, we're going to bring back stopping frisk. We're going to have the Feds put anybody who's involved in any sort of like street level pity crime put them in federal prison. Like it's an amazing you could not come up with a more terrifying agenda for black men. But you know this, you know the Trump crackdown on black men, which he's promising, we haven't really been able to get ourselves to talk about in clear terms.
I want to tell you all about the Cancer Straight Talk podcast from Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center with MSK oncologist doctor Diane Reedy Lagunis. I was a guest and we had a totally candid conversation about my family's experiences with cancer, including my husband Jay's illness, my own treatment for breast cancer, and of course the time I got that kolon uskby on National TV. Cancer straight Talk features life affirming conversations with experts and patients alike about topics
affecting everyone touched by cancer. If that includes you or someone you love, I hope you'll listen to my episode and every episode of Cancer Straight Talk. Isn't the problem that people who are supporting Donald Trump are not listening to anything that is trying to convince them otherwise? On Fox and Friends this morning, apparently I didn't see it, but reportedly they were gushing over the Madison Square Garden event.
Right Wing media in general is not analyzing Trump's policies, so people are getting, you know, a very distinct brand of news and information that is staying in its lane. It's pro Trump. Don't criticize Trump lane. In fact, criticize obviously Harris till the cows come home. And you know, by the way, one could argue that the other networks and media outlets do the same to Trump, and I don't think you can compare the two. We can talk about that in a moment. But they're not hearing these
things about tariffs, and that's what they're listening to. Twenty four to seven.
Yeah, well, look, you know, you know, you do have people who are like really brought into like you know, Trump media, and you have people who by other media. It's the people in the middle who are really just not tuned in that much at all. Those are good people who decide the election. It's the independent and swing voters in swing counties and swing states, and those people.
That's why do you see Donald Trump going on too all these podcasts, all these quote unquote bro podcasts, because that's where a bunch of people who are not watching Bots and Friends, who aren't listening to Rachel Bado, who are just that's all, that's that's what they're their kind of corny cousin or their crazy uncle does. They're interested in sports and other things. He's going after those people, I think very well, and trying to get these you know,
these guys to come out and vote. It's very, very hard to communicate in this environment. And I think that that's everybody wakes up in the morning, an environment where there's an algorithm. Your next door neighbor is looking at their phone at the same time you're looking at your phone, and they are seeing completely different things. It's not to say that yours is right and there's is wrong. Maybe their's is right and yours is wrong. It's just to
say that it's completely different. And so when you go out to check your mail box and she goes out to check her mail box, you're literally living in a different, algorithmically created world that she didn't pick constantly for herself, and you didn't pick constantly for yourself. And so that's one reason why I really focus on kindness, civility, empathy. We're all at the effect of something that we didn't
create or choose. Four years ago. You clicked on something about Hillary Clinton, or you clicked on something about you know, some issue in the environment, and that is still informing what your algorithm is giving you. Your next door neighbor clicked on something maybe anaquis about, you know, buying a gun, and that is now informing four years later what she's seeing in her algorithm. Then come out and say you're an idiot, you're a cult member, you're crazy. The whole
last second, everybody's slow down. Now, somebody, not me and not you, is creating this division for their own purposes, and so mentally, can we be kind? And that's you know, I try to focus on that and try to remind myself that none of us chose this crazy, dystopian disinformation reality that we're living in, and none of I's got to get out of it.
Okay, mister Rogers, So you're welcome.
You're welcome.
I mean I I aspire to that too. But I guess one question, and Sam, I'm curious how you feel about this? You know, how do you cover Trump? The media has gotten, you know, tied itself in knots. How you cover this guy? And I think they're still trying to figure it out eight years later. Van, you know, Jeff Zucker got trash for covering all his rallies without any kind of critical commentary. A company them because they rated well, right, and now.
You have just in just defense. We were criticizing it the whole time, but it turns out just the overall effect of covering it that much, covering even empty podiums, had a positive effect, even though the whole time we were I was on the air that during those years we criticized it, but we also just showed it so much that it wound up backfiring very much, very much.
Yeah, I still think we have not like we have not figured it out. No one has figured it out because it is so outrageous, Like last night's rally is so outrageous, and he's just getting like volumes just like you know, uh Kamala has like raised a billion dollars, but he's got a billion dollars in free advertising that's occurring today. Like the more you know, I have good friends in the advertising industry who are like, it's all about brand. The only thing that matters is brand awareness.
It's not even like really what the brand is doing. It's brand awareness. So you want to be like pushing the brand again and again and again and so that it's the last thing you think of when you're in that voting booth, and that's what's happening, and it's happening for free today. It's just everywhere. We're talking about it right now, because how can you not talk about it? But I don't think we're talking about it. I think
we're talking about it in a horrified way. I mean, we're horrified, but we're so think that that.
You can't tell me that that rally at Madison Square Garden helped him van you know, to interviewed Tara Palmery, maybe it helped solidify his base and he was throwing red meat out to them. But he certainly, as she said, elections are about addition, not subtraction. And if you're going to alienate Puerto Ricans, right, four hundred and fifty thousand Puerto Ricans are eligible to vote in Pennsylvania. Did you know that.
I didn't know that number. I'm happy to hear that number.
There's a huge population of Puerto Ricans. Like, why would
you invite a guy who's going to trash people? Why would you say you want to bring back the Alien and Sedition Acts of seventeen ninety eight, which gave the president the power to deport non citizens who were subjects of foreign enemies, gave the president the power to deport any alien he considered dangerous, and the Sedition Act, if we need to be reminded, made it a crime to write or publish anything quote, false, scandalous and malicious about the government or the president.
Well, I hate to drop this right in the middle of this chat, but this election is close. So actually it works really well, Like it actually works really well, because if it didn't work, this election would be like a shoeing for Carmel Herro's. But it really super works. And that is my honest feeling.
What works. What are you saying? This campaign strategy works.
To be this outrageous, It works to have that comedian on that stage being so repulsive, like being actually being repugnant actually really works for them.
And like I don't know what to say.
The other thing that it does is, which is even more troubling and more reasons for people who are listening to you get involved and to make sure that everybody bothes and trusts, get their friends to vote, and make sure that when you vote, triple it, make sure you're three other people are voting. Is because if he wins with this, he's got a permission structure now to do
whatever he wants. If you can be this badly behaved before you're the president, if you can tell people, and by the way, notice he will say things like I'm going to lock up all my opponents, I'm going to lock up Nancy Pelosi, I'm going to do all these things, and then all the Republican apologies come out and say he doesn't mean that, he's just speaking in hyperperly. And then the next day he says, no, no, no, no, I meant what I said, like he's literally will tell
that the next interviewer. Well, everybody said he didn't mean it. No I meant it. So here's the thing. If you get elected with that, you can say, with some justification, I have a mandate to lock up all my opponents. I told you I was going to do it, and you left it me. I have a mandate to crack down on all of these communities because I told you I was going to deport all these people, and you elect me. So it is unfortunately very effective, but it
also should be galvanizing on our side. And I think that for people who believe in democracy, for people who believe in human rights, people who believe in the Constitution. This should be galvanizing on our side. We shouldn't be like, yeah, well I don't like what Kamala said twenty years ago, or I don't like her foreign policy on this thing, or I don't like so therefore I'm going to vote,
but I'm going to be sad about it. Look, you should vote and be passionate about it, because not only does Kamala actually have plans that will actually help you, like help you get a house, help you get an apprenticeship, help you start a small business, actual plans. With Donald trup has never passed a plan to help you. His only economic adgeda to was passing the tax clubs for his friends. He's never passed a bill to help ordinary Americans. Kalma has a stack of those bills ready to sign.
And so, if you care about the future, if you don't want more inflation, if you do want help getting for your kid to buy a house, if you want to start a business, there's only one candidate for you, and you should be passionate about it. You should be texting everyone you know about it. We lost Florida in year two thousand by five hundred and thirty seven votes. There were almost what one hundred and fifty million votes cast. It came down to five hundred and thirty seven votes
in Florida plus five boats in Supreme Court. But that's another story.
And well a lot of hanging chats and votes that got thrown away, right sure, sure, but they start every morning with a breakdown of the news and fascinating pop culture, I mean likes.
So everyone should be passionate about saying I don't care what you say about any of the deficiencies of Kamala Harris. You know, Donald Trump gets to be lawless, Kamala has to be flawless.
Yes, a lot of people have been commenting that on my Instagram.
And you know, social media does a great job of reinforcing. If you click like on somebody who's grumpy about, you know, any issue, you'll get nine hundred more of those next tomorrow, and so it will reinforce whatever grumpiness, whatever unhappiness, whatever dispepsia, they will be reinforced. And then if you click or like or share or comment I want, then you'll get nine thousand the next day. And so that's why everybody's
so depressed. I'm not on social media, so you know, and I've got a good therapist, so I'm not depressed. But everybody that I know is, you know, miserable. And I'm like, honestly, your life is pretty good. You live in the United States. People are like, well, all these people with all this privilege, you know, the most privileged, every American citizen. There's never been a more privileged people.
I don't care if you're black, white, brow, There's never been a more privileged people of people that live in the United States. Today. We have clean near clean war. I mean, we have our problems, but we are in a great position. Everybody's miserable. Why because these things do not give us information.
They give you affirmation. That's my famous line that I co opted from my friend Nicole Seligman. Affirmation not information.
I like that. And if you happen to have a bad day today, you'll have a worse day tomorrow because whatever you're clicking and liking, that's what it gives you more of. And so yeah, people are you know, the people are unhappy. And so that's why it's rationally a change election. People do want change. The problem is that you know, you said, well, okay, I'm going to vote for change. I'm going to vote to change political parties. No, honey,
no sir, no man. The worst thing you could do right now is to say we're going to put the car in reverse and go back to this clown car administration that boshed COVID, that you know, ruined the Obama economy, that you have an extra six hundred thousand dead people because this guy didn't know what he was doing, and he's more disinhibited now. He's crazier now. The Supreme Court s is he can do more damage now his team is worse now. That is not the change that you want.
You want the change that Kam was talking about, which is to build on the progress Limiteda has been with Biden and get you more of what you need. That's Kama Harris.
At least want someone in the White House who you can have a conversation with, who you can move, who you can like, you can push in a direction that you care about. You just want some You want a coherent voice, like minimally you want a coherent voice in the White House? Please can we please have that?
But Van, you know you talk about building on the Biden administration for reasons I guess you know again, food prices, gas prices, housing prices. Whether he's to blame or not, but it happened during his administration. He is incredibly unpopular, and Kamala Harris I don't think has done a very good job. She started to of separating and saying what she would do differently than Joe Biden? And what do
you think of that? Could she have said, listen, I'm proud of this, but or we could have done this better. Why is she so cautious about saying how she might approach some problems differently than an incredibly unpopular incumbent.
I hate to say this because it's going to sound Look, Kamala Harris is a loyal person. That is very It might sound corny. She's she's not going to take out her knife and start stabbing somebody in the back to advance herself. People think that the opposite about Comma said, Oh, she's Matchiavella. She's this, she's at you know, she's tough minded, she's a she's a super practice is she's not She's
not California progressive. I'll tell you that's a California. She's never in the progressive camp at all, as you know. But I think that she has a reluctance to say we fucked this up, we fucked that. I don't I don't think she believes it. But also don't think that she is that type of a person. And so I think that I would have preferred if I were if I were her, I would have preferred for her to say, you know what, Joe Biden's a hell of a man. He's done a hell of the job. But everybody has
been the number two and had other ideas. I've been number two. I had other ideas. Here's what I wanted to do. But I know no calm for thirty years. She cannot fix her mouth to say something like that. She just can't do it. And so if it's a character flaw that costs her the election, and that character flaw is just too much loyalty to people who gave her a shot, I just I just think you got to eat the whole hamburger will come here. She's not that kind of person. She is not that kind of politicans.
I don't think she believes it. I think that she honestly believes that they did a better job than they get credit for. I think she does have critiques and criticisms of him. But I don't think that she feels comfortable doing that in public. And that's just the reality of it.
And also in a very truncated campaign, like it's not you know, when you have like a very narrow window to like come in, take over, take over the whole campaign. You are driving, you are driving to election day. You really do not have time or you don't have like the grace of the public to go sinkly need some mistakes here, you just don't those. It is not the time to like look back, like and go I think we failed on this measure.
I think you need to do.
I think she is just driving the most forward the best she.
Can, like go for it.
I just want to say, as a political guy, I agree with Katie that it had been politically smarter and better for her to find a couple of things to say. Look, I wish we had done this earlier. I whish we had done this all. Here's what I learned when I came in. It's unfracking, very easy on fracking. So you know what, as a California Democrat and you know, we were very anti fracking, and I came out of that. But like a lot of California like a lot of Democrats.
But here's what I learned in office. I learned, first of all, you can have fracking and also do the clean energy agenda. But much more importantly, I learned that we needed that natural gas we were fracking in Pennsylvania to beat Putin. Putin when I came into office, Putin started threatening Europe. He was going to cut off natural gas and freeze Europeans in their beds because we wanted
to defend Ukraine. And I learned we needed that natural gas coming out of Pennsylvania fracking to stop Putent fracking as a part of my geopolitical arsenal to defend democracy. And I would never write, so didn't you tell you that?
I haven't heard her say any of that. I heard her say the first part. I heard her say, you can have clean energy and be involved in fracking. That her views have evolved, But what has been sometimes missing I think for some voters Van and Sam is sort of that second or third sentence to help people understand a little bit more than kind of one or two sentences that kind of give the general idea. And I'm like, when you're asked about the Supreme Court as she was
in that CNN town hall. I interviewed Neil Katilla in front of his law firm and a bunch of clients. Now, he's brilliant, right, he's a constitutional law professor. I mean, the guy's brain is unparalleled. And he was talking about the pros and cons of expanding this Supreme Court and of term limits from a historical perspective. And I don't expect her to say that, but I want a little bit more meat on the bone van If not so much for me, but for listeners. I want her to say,
you know what, I want to look into this. There's some pros to that, there's some cons. But one thing I do think is absolutely necessary is a code of ethics for Supreme Court justices who have clearly exhibited a conflict of interests on several occasions over the past two years.
Yeah. I don't know.
I think when you've got a candidate on the other side who's like people are ripping the heads off cats and dogs in the street, You're just like, let me just hold on everybody.
Yeah, I guess. I guess we treat her as a normal candidate and we want, you know, and we tolerate him as an abnormal candidate. And so is that unfair in your view?
I think at one hundred percent unfair. But I also think that I understand what Sam is saying. She's saying, listen, she's already pulled off eight hundred miracles, right, like to take over a campaign one hundred days of colection day, to hold this party together, to get the Chenese and Chompsky on the same bus, to keep driving it forward, to be able to have to switch out some of the campaigns the up, but you can't switch out all
of it because you don't have a beat. Like, So I agree, it's like she's pulled out eight hundred and fifty miracles already and we should just give her our applause. And I also feel that for whatever reason, she has locked in on the strategy of just saying the same thing every time, And even Charlamagne and God said, you know, you just sound like a robot, and she goes, that's called discipline, ha ha ha. But I do think that given the voters we're trying to move, who you know,
they can't. You can't be more appauled by Donald Trump and they still haven't moved. And you can't be more impressed by her resume, and they still haven't moved. What do they need to hear? I do think they need to hear something else. There's something that she's not doing. And so look, I would say I'd love that answer,
and Supreme Court, I love my instrument tracking. We can all answers, but we're eight days out, and so the thing I would say is whatever you need to say to your own friends, because again, five hundred and thirty seven votes, whatever you like, Tom's not going to talk to your friends. She's going to be on a stage, She's going to be interviewing. You get to talk to
your friends. You have your Facebook followers, you have your Instagram followers, you have your WhatsApp chat groups, You've got your and you should just say, I am now the common haras campaign manager, and I am fortually myself going to make the arguments that I think are a ballad to my friends and be aggressive about it and be passionate about it. Donald Trump closes strong. He always closes strong. He's going to have even more devastating campaign ads to
come out. He's going he always closes strong. And so if you if you to Sam's point, if you can appreciate that if you had to run for president one hundred days from now, how hard it would be for you.
Yeah, Like, I feel so cynical for being a person who's like, actually, I think there's no almost no room for a nuance.
It's just like everything.
Anytime she dips into a nuance, I think she risks a larger swath of the population. I think it's all about risk management, keeping steady, get into the ellipse, giving delivering that like heavy hammer. Like, I just don't I feel I totally understand and appreciate what you're saying. I'm just not sure that the nuance is going to move people. I literally think it could be like a coupon per a sandwich on the way into the voting booth.
It's gonna move from up.
No one's doing that. That's not legal, But I do think a coupon for a Quiznos might actually seal the deal.
That's buddy.
If you want to get smarter every morning with a breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter, Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com before we go. I want to ask you all about the kerfuffle. It's not actually bigger than a kerfuffle. I would say it's a full out brewhaha over the La Times and
the Washington Post failure to endorse a candidate. You know, I'm surprised that there are many people who don't understand or appreciate, or maybe it's outlived its usefulness, the separation from an editorial board and the rest of the paper. And I do think I was talking to Nancy Gibbs, who was at a wedding I was at former editor in chief of Time, now teaches public policy at Harvard.
You know that when Ruth Marcus the Washington Coast says an endorsement represents the heart and soul of the newspaper, that's a little misleading for readers. It's really the editorial board and it's a separate entity. But I'm curious for you both to weigh in on these two major newspapers at the behest of their billionaire owners, deciding not to endorse a candidate.
Yeah. I don't love it. I don't like it. I do think I think can subtle and not so subtle ways people are preparing for a Trump presidency, and I don't like to see it. I don't like to see it on Wall Street, and I don't like to see it in I guess it feels to me like democracy is signed darkness, like what the editorial I don't think that the editorial board has outlived its usefulness. I think they should have done it, and I'm really dismayed, like really disheartened that they weren't doing it.
I don't know that it moves people, but yeah, it should exist. What do you think, Van, Yeah, I.
Think I think newspapers don't matter as much as they used to, but they still matter. And I think thateople don't understand the editorial board. You know, you can you can have an opinion about a candidate and still have the The other on the other side of the wall often literally are the reporters, and they can still do fair reporting. So we've kind of known that for one hundred fifty years in the United States. So I would
much rather them the way in. I don't think ten years from now, if we have very bad outcomes from the Trump presidency, anybody's going to be proud that they stood on the sidelines. I think that people should think I think that I think that people should take to take a sting one way or the other. I agree with you, I don't. I don't think you carvery yourself in glory if one hundred years from now or ten years from now, you wouldn't register an opinion about what's coming.
And by the way, and I say this, no matter what your what your view is. If your view is that you know Kama Harris has just not met your bar, and if your view is that you think that the economy would be in better hands with Donald Trump, that would be interesting to know. Like whatever it is, I'm just saying, I'm I'm not saying it's got to be
for comment, it's got to be for Trump. But I think that we don't want our institutions to be We don't want our few remaining institutions to not offer their honest opinion at a time of great consequence.
Yeah, now is the time to plant a flag one.
Way or the other. I mean, jin maybe there's something I haven't heard.
I think it's also a little ironic that Trump administration or Trump officials were visiting Blue Origin when this decision was made by Jeff Bezos. It just seems really yeah.
Look, I know Jeff Bezos. I'm quite fond of him.
Oh yeah, he gave you a lot of money to give away, like one hundred million dollars.
Right exactly. I know Jeff Bezos, I'm quite fond of him. I've not talked to him about this. I don't know. I literally Kim Kardashian's a good friend of mine. Jeff Bezos friend of mine. I discount ninety eight percent of what good said about them in public because it's almost always not right. So I do not know what decision making was, but I would just say, as a matter of principle, I would say this too, or about anyone,
this is not the time to be quiet. I think people should put their best thinking forward so that we can make informed decisions.
When this episode drops, the election will be less than a week away. What do you think is going to happen? Man?
You know, I think it's going to be house to house combat. I think it's going to come down to I think this will be the closest I think it's going to be one of the closest elections in American history. But I'll tell you it's in the hands of the people who are listening. I mean, we can all sit here and write speeches for everybody and that sort of stuff. They ain't got to read those speeches. You can write a text message, it's going to be read. You can make a phone call, it's going to be heard. It
will come more than anything else. What I would say is, you don't want to be sitting there, whoever you're for sitting there election, I would saying I wish I had done one thing more the next several days. You should put every arrow in the air. You should do everything you possibly can. You know, if you've never done a video selfie on your social media, do it because that might move three votes. You have no idea the impact you can have. So sometimes people put stuff up and
it goes mega viral and changes the whole conversation. So I think that it is in the hands of ordinary people at this point, every day people at this point, especially in the seven battleground states. And if you don't know, if you live in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan, North Carolina, Georgia, Arizona, Arizona, or Nevada, your vote matters more than anybody else's vote in the country those seven states. If you live in
those states, your vote is one hundred votes. If you live in those states, your vote is a thousand votes. Your vote counts more than all the rest of our votes combined, because those are the seven states that will determine this election. So if you live in those seven battot ground states, you have a responsibility to vote whichever way you feel, and you will have a bigger impact on the election those states and any of us talking about it, I.
Think we're going to know the night of no.
Well, I don't think so, And I think we should remind everyone we know that you don't have to tell anybody how you voted in that voting booth. You don't have to tell a damn soul. You don't have to vote one way just because your parents did and your grandparents did, and your husband told you that you had to, or your wife thought that that would be a good idea for you. You can tell anybody anything you want, and you can vote with your conscience, But for what do you know it's right?
I thought Michelle Obama's speech is great emphasize that, yeah, we have to use.
Our voices to make these choices clear to the men that we love our lives are worth more than their anger and disappointment. And we are more than just baby making vessels. And if you are a woman who lives in a household of men that don't listen to you or value your opinion, just remember that your vote is a private matter, regardless of the political views of your partner. You get to choose, You get to use your judgment and cast your vote for yourself and the women in
your life. Remember, women standing up for what is best for us can make the difference in this election. So let us use our voices in these final days.
That was a pretty powerful speech to anythink fan.
Migielle Obama may be the best communicator in the English language right now. I mean, she is so good. Always
say I love Obama and her husband. I mean, she's just a believable and and I thought she did a great job of pointing out to men what it's like to be a man when you're you're the woman that you care about your partner, your daughter is in medical distress and you can't and she's bleeding out, and the doctors are standing there looking at her, afraid that they help your You love the one they've got to go to prison and really just letting people bleed out of parking lots, as a as a man, as a as
someone who wants to be able to protect the people that you love, what does it mean?
And also the message of like it takes two people to make an unplanned pregnancy, do you want to be able to do something about that?
Or do you not?
Like you have skin in the game, you're part of this, being a part of it.
I thought Michelle did just an unbelievable job, as she always does, and she makes it look so easy. It's very difficult to do what she does. Like, that's the arguments that she makes, the way that she makes them. Who she's being when she's making them might just sing Michelle Obama as a national trend.
I also had a little bit of a cold, I could tell.
So, yeah, got your nose, she pulled it off. Anyway.
Do you think the Democratic Party needs to retool? My husband John says things like, how this election is so close, what does it say about the Democratic Party? And I'm curious what you think it says about the Democratic Party? Has it lost its way? Has it lost its mojo?
Look, I am very I'm always willing to look in the mirror, Like, if something goes wrong in my life, the easy thing to do is to say that person sucks, and that person sucks, the other person sucks, and why do they do that? The harder thing to do is say, you know what, what did I do to create this situation? Even if it's nine nine percent of the other person's fault, I looked for my one percent. And so I am not trying to let literal fascists off the hook. That
is its own thing. But is there anything I can look at on our side?
Yeah?
Yeah, I think like a stuff on our side. I think we we have created a style on the progressive left that is that's obnoxious and that makes people feel uncomfortable and unwelcome. Too often. I mean we change terms every six months. Somebody said I was a BIPOCK. I said, what is the I've never gone to a BIPOC church or a bi I've never eaten any BIPOC food, Like, is there a BIPOC barber shop? What are you talking about? Latin X. You make up these terms and then people
feel dumb because they don't know them. And then I think we also have created a situation where we think that Trump is pulling people. I think we're pushing people, you know, I said, I'm Bill Maher. If we if we have a party where we say all white people are racist, all of you you're all racist, All men are toxic, all billionaires are evil, well then you can't be mad when white male billionaires like Elon Musk leave our party. Elon Musk was a Democrat supporting Andrew Yang
four years ago. Now he is on some crazy look. I don't I don't let him off the hook. He has a responsibility to defend democracy not undermined. But is there a one percent where if he if someone like him comes into the room, if a straight white male comes into the room, if if someone who is Jewish and who is pro Israel coming to the room, are they welcome or not? Do we want them or not.
I have a friend who's covering the Trump campaign and I asked her about Trump supporters and she said, in her view, a lot of it has to do with quote lefty lecture culture. I thought that was a very interesting observation, and I think it basically encompasses, man, what you're talking about.
And after the election, I think we should do a whole analysis of it. But until the election. Whatever sins and flaws we have are literally nothing compared to a overtly racist, overtly fascist, overtly raitorian mass phenomenon that is about to not only ruin America if it wins, but also abandoned people in Ukraine and also make sure we don't fix the climate crisis. So I am not trying to take any of the the foot off the gas. But after the selection, can we say the same things
more kindly? Yes? Can we defend African Americans, Latinos, latinas poor folks, the environment more kindly, more wisely, more empathetically. Can we be more magnetic?
Yes we can, and perhaps be less judgmental and self righteous I don't know.
Less judgy and shitty toward people, Yes, that's not Can we improve yes? Can we be more magnetic and welcoming? Yes? Should we be? Yes? After we win this selection?
Van Jones, thank you, Van all right, thank you, Talk to you soon. Sam. Yes, I really like Van Jones.
I like them too, talk to them. They are arenas and I always enjoy I always enjoy his perspective. He's great.
What do you think about those closing remarks about the Democratic Party.
People just want to be governed from the middle. They just want to be governed from the middle. They just seem to, like the majority of the country lives pretty much in the middle zone, and they just want a steady hand. They want things that are like actually more simple than sometimes we make them.
I can agree with that. Who do you think is going to win? I don't know.
I don't want to manifest. I don't want to I don't want to manifest a big, bad problem. But I will say that I think it's going to be extremely close and a squeaker, and that is so distressing. So I don't know either way. But I do have a sick feeling in my stomach that there's a you know, there's a chance we could have a repeat of twenty sixteen and Amlowen's popular vote a wide margin, but those electoral colleges barry pesky. So I don't really know. I
think anything is possible. I don't know that one is more probable than the other. And that is extremely distressing, and that I think necessitates like a real reckoning, like who actually are we here? Regardless of who wins, who actually are we That this is a squeaker. It's absolutely it's absolutely awful.
Well, I have to say on that positive note, Sam, thanks so much for being with me today and to be continued. Hang in there, Hang in there.
Stay strong, drive people to the Owling station.
Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me, a subject you want us to cover, or you want to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world reach out. You can leave a short message at six h nine five P one two five five five, or you can send me a DM on Instagram. I would love to hear from you. Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers
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