Can this pandemic make us better people?

But now that we've settled into this strange new reality, with much of our daily lives put on hold, it's time to figure out how we start to get to a new normal and find out what that normal even looks like, which is why today I'm gearing up for something new and really exciting, and I'm bringing along a friend to help me. Kay, Hi Katie, you know um Bosma st. John is a trailblazing marketing executive whose work has straddled two worlds, music and pop culture and Silicon Valley.

She transforms and guides big name brands like Pepsi, Apple and now Endeavor, where she's chief marketing officer, giving them purpose and personality, making her very much in demand. Thank you, Eddie. In two thousand and sixteen, she was the first black woman to present at Apple's Worldwide Developers Conference, where she managed to rouse the mainly white male audience out of their stupor with a giant dance party like this classic the Sugarhill Gang. It kind of feels appropriate to get

this party started with a little bit of rappers alike. Right, come on, let's listen to something. Come on, y'all, now you recognize me? Right, come on, We're gonna make the whole auditorium rock. It was definitely something those Apple execs had never seen before, and that's pretty much how Bows has excelled her entire career by being her true and fabulous self. I lead with my difference. I don't lead

with the commonality. You know that I am holly myself in not trying to put on for anyone and still try to manage in an environment which was not built for me. Bows is someone I've admired and respected for quite a while, and I'm super excited to share that soon she'll be joining me as my co host for a special ten episode series about how we can all get back to business biz and Bo's kind of goes together, doesn't it. We'll have more on that later, but today

I just wanted you to get to know her. There's a lot I think we can learn from bows Is life and career and her thoughts on my next question, Can this pandemic somehow make us better people. She joined me over Zoom from her home in l A, which she shares with her soon to be eleven year old daughter Lael. I'm glad to be here. I am feeling really good. Uh this morning, at least, this is one

of the mornings, so I feel really good. Since Bose considers herself a bit of an ant apologist a student of human behavior, I wanted to get a read on what she thought was happening in this moment, a moment where we're seeing the best of humanity but also anger and resentment taking over the public square with protesters, songs mass in Pennsylvania, Indiana, and Michigan. You know what it's interesting is it reminds me of the stages of grief.

You know. It's actually what it really reminds me of that you know, at the beginning, you are just so overwhelmingly sad, and you're sort of grabbing onto anything to make you feel normal and whole, and you know, you just want comfort, right, And I think that's what was happening in the beginning, and reaching out to people their facetimes,

having their Zoom parties. There's like all kinds of things, you know, people behaviors that people were exhibiting to UM grab onto the familiar, you know, even in the time of their of their fear. UM. And then it started moving and changing, very much like grief does you know, as you're going through the feelings of loss, where that turns into the anger you know about that? Why? Why why has this happened? Why has it happened to me? Less about you? Why has this happened to me? You know?

And and how can I how can I get control of this thing? I'm really upset. I want to make sure that everybody knows how upset I am about this, and people take that out in different ways, you know. And I think there will also come a time, um, maybe not that soon, where we will start to see, you know, after going through the anger, UM will start to see the new behaviors, you know, people creating new

ways to cope, which will I have. I'm very you know, optimistic in that that we will find that people, um will let go of the aleanna ish you know behavior that first came in the first wave, you know, of

the like kumbaya, everybody hold hands. I will never be mean again in life, you know that thought and will move through the anger and the you know, distracted conversation around why me and then taking it out on other people, and we will move into a new way of being, you know, a new way of living that will be

much healthier for us. But that also takes awareness, you know, it takes awareness, and it takes an acceptance of the loss of the way things were, the loss of innocence, you know, about our world and how we behave, and it will require people to realize that that's not coming back. You know, that new normal is not coming back. I'm sure for you as and for me um. You know, having gone through grief, there is that moment where you, oh, man,

it's a hard moment. But the realization that nothing will be what it was, you know, this idea that you're going back to normal actually doesn't exist. And so thinking about that and figuring out, well, how then do I recreate my life, how do I cope? How do I move forward? Becomes then your own sort of healing process, you know, and then when you actually figure it out, that's when you actually start to feel better. You truly feel better. It's not again the happy, go lucky thing,

it's it's actually much deeper. It feels deeper. And so that's what I'm hopeful for. You know that our communities and our people in our lives, even myself, you know that we get to that place where it's like, Okay, here's the reality, uh, and how do I manage my life now from now on? And this is when I think those leadership is so important to have some kind of north star, somebody who is bringing the country together.

And sadly, I just think the current leadership, I think President Trump is is really kind of using this too for there divide us, which is incredibly upsetting to me because when someone asked him about what would you Peter Alexander, who I used to work with at NBC, what would you say to people who are afraid? What do you say to Americans who are watching you right now who are scared? I say that you're a terrible reporter, That's

what I say. I think it's a very nasty question, and I think it's a very bad signal that you're putting out to the American that was such a moment for him to be a unifying force, for him to say this is scary. It's scary for everyone, and this is what we need to do instead of b rating, taking that opportunity to brate the press. And I think

that words are really important now. And whether it's George W. Bush after nine eleven or President Obama after Sandy Hook or FDR during you know, you have nothing, we have nothing to fear but fear itself. You know, those are the moments that are the rallying cry for people too, I think want to aspire to better and to to think about the common good. And I think there's been

such a vacuum their bows. It's heartbreaking to me, man, I feel overwhelmed even by that, to be honest, But there happened leaders emerging bows like you know Andrew Cuomo and I think Gavin Knewso the Republican governor of Maryland. There there have been these beacons I think of intelligence, of calm, of inspiration, of creativity that I think have emerged.

Don't use yes, absolutely absolutely, and it it really actually just drives back to a theory that I've had actually for quite some time around leadership UM and the evolution of what leadership looks like in this country but really

all around the world world. You know, in that UM for either in business or in politics, probably politics less because you know, we're used to seeing the candidate, although the candidate or the elected official still feels very much like there's a veneer there right that we can't penetrate, or has felt like that for a long time, and

in business very much the same. In that CEOs or anyone in the c suite, feels like everything is always scripted, right, you have to say it the right way, you have to say it in the right cadence um or sometimes those people are not known, right, and all you have is the brick and mortar building of the brand for people to attach with that has completely evaporated, right. I feel like over the last twenty years or so, it's slowly been coming down, but this moment has erase the

rest of it. You know, I thought it would take us another five or ten years to get to the place where we needed full transparency. Will days upon us or right now? You know, people want to see the humans. You don't care about perfection. I have tried to say that again and again and again to every leader that you don't have to be perfect. The script doesn't have to be perfect. You know, you can use sometimes the wrong words because we're all trying to figure this out,

you know, and right now. One of the ways that I've been talking about about this um you know, in my work, I'm the chief marketing officer of Endeavor, and one of the biggest strategic insights has come out of this time is that we want brands to be companions to our consumers, right into our audiences. This is not

necessarily about service. This is not about standing up on top of the hill and you know, screaming down on the people that you know better that they should come to you because you have the perfect solution for whatever thing in their lives. This is not that time. People want companionship, you know, they want you to sit next to them and tell them that you're hurting too, you know, and that you are hurting. But here's what I have found to help make me better. Maybe you can try it.

That's what they want to hear. And that that cuts across everything. That's not just businesses, that's politics. So you're right that moment with President Trump, it wouldn't have mattered, you know that what his political leanings are, I wouldn't have mattered. It wouldn't have mattered if he had answered and said, you know, yeah, we're all scared I'm scared.

I'm scared for the health of my family. I'm scared for the health of myself, by the way, and I'm trying to figure out what the best thing is to do so that we can all stay safe. I believe everyone would have felt better, and he probably would have won some points. I think so too. I think so too. I think, uh, that just was such a lost opportunity. But if someone doesn't feel that in their heart, you know, um, you can't. You can't even script that, right, So you can't,

you can't. But I think you're right. I mean, I think that word off senticity has been so overused at this point, you know, it's become kind of a buzzword. But but I think people are are looking for true human emotion. Why are people looking to brands two for comfort? I mean, you just I don't think people ever kind of even yearned for that relationship with brands. And I

think that's such an interesting development in our culture. What do you think lead to that those comfort has always existed, you know, as a way for brands to communicate with our audiences and their consumers. They probably just didn't say it that way, you know, And and comfort showed up in in many different ways. Yeah, I worked for PepsiCo for a long time on their soda businesses, and at that time, you know, the the idea was to bring joy, right, just pure joy in in five minutes or less. And

that is some sort of comfort, right, um. But today the come furt is in making me feel safe. It's in making me feel like I can be just be, not necessarily achieved, just be you know, a k. It should feel like, um, information that is safe and reliable. You know, that kind of comfort is what people are

truly looking for. And even the comfort of letting go, you know, the comfort in not being bound by any expectations that had been set for us before letting go is a real comfort that people feel like they need permission to do. And so if brands would communicate that through their products and services, I think they would find more loyalty in this very moment. And sometimes especially in times like this, you know, everybody feels like the responsibility

to sort of, you know, do something. You know, it's like I've got to do something otherwise I'm doing nothing, or or I need to help my community otherwise I'm doing nothing. I need a fundraise to help the health care workers, or I'm doing nothing, you know, And I constantly try to remind people that that's that's wonderful, that's great if you are able to do that, you know, but that's really taking stock. If you are able to do that, always take the focus group of one. You know,

what am I feeling like? Do I have the bandwidth to do that? Because if you don't and you fall, then we have then we have a problem. You know, if you're standing and you're well, and you're healthy, and you're stable and mentally ready to help your community and you know, go out and help your neighbor, or do whatever other thing you would achieve more, learn a new language, like do all the things that are expected, you know,

these high expectations of us, then great, do that. But if you're not able to do that, having the permission to simply be is really important. And so I've been counseling brands and you know, leaders within those brands to think about how they can be better comforters to their audiences, to their employees, uh and even to their own families.

Because once we can see that you are human and that you're feeling this too, that you're not above all of this craziness that's going on, then more people can identify with you as a human being. And that's all we want. We want our human connection. That's it. There's nothing more more with bozemas St. John after the short break.

Bozeman's St. John is hugely successful. But you know you've really made it when your career is the subject of a Harvard Business School lass, and hers was this past semester. I first heard that they wanted to do it, and I thought for a second, like, wow, well does that mean I should do I retire now? Like what happens exactly, or or somebody trying to tell me something, you know, like okay, your your career is done, now go and do something else. You know. That's what it feels like.

It feels like the type of thing that happens when somebody feels like you've crested. Uh. And so it was. It was actually really weird to feel, um that what I had done was quite frankly worthy of a class um and also overwhelming, and that that choices that I've made, you know, different experiences that I've had within my career that other people would be studying, you know, and and either having great things to say about it, or maybe

arguing about it. You know, that felt very It felt like it was something again like outside of my control. You know. It's like these personal decisions that I've made over the course of time. Now we're open to being judged, you know, by other people, which is funny because I do live a public life. I you know, I'm sure there are lots of people who have opinions about moves I've made or campaigns I've run. But to think that it would be an academic pursuit is something totally different.

And I have to thank Francis fry Um, who is the professor who led the class. Um. She she and I actually met at uber so she had been brought into essentially help management be better. You know. So at the time I joined UM, there was quite a bit of upheaval. That's probably a light I was going to say, to put it mildly, Yes, yes, upheaval in the management team.

And she is a extraordinary uh professor in there in the Harvard Business School, and so she knows academically how to um advise and not just advice, but also set up an organization of managers. And so she was brought in to do that, um, And so it was it was just quite wonderful actually that we both ended up

at UBER at the same time. And so when she upon her leaving, she just said that not only was she interested and impressed by the career I've had so far, UM, but in leading with difference, you know that I lead with my difference. I don't lead with the commonality. You know that I am wholly myself in in all those situations, and that it was fascinating to see her or to see me behave just as myself, not trying to put on airs for anyone and still try to manage in

an environment which was not built for me. And so the thesis of her class was about leading with difference on how to do that. That's fascinating, and leading with difference means, I guess, as if I gathered correctly what you were just saying, leading from your pure authentic point of view. But what else does leading with difference mean? Bows Yeah, leading with difference means that you don't do it the textbook away. You know that you are doing it your own way, and that is a that is

something that I wish every leader would do. You know that, um, you will use the word authenticity, which you're right, it's overused, but it is there's nothing else that can replace it. You know that you don't have to be a black woman who is from Caldo Springs, Colorado by way of Ghana,

UM to be different. You know that that even the stereotypes of what we have seen as leadership in corporate America, UM that if we just looked a little below, you know, under the cover a little bit, there'd be something there. You know that is that each of them have that are different from the other, but that we are not and I'm using the air quotes, you know, allowed to show our difference when we are leaders, that there is some model that we're supposed to be living up to.

You know that you can't show up on Instagram in a bikini as a executive woman because somehow that's not the image that people expect of your Yeah. Um, And I'm not necessarily saying that you should go to the

office and your bikini. I'm just saying right right, Well, I I've noticed throughout my career that that I think people have a hard time dealing with multi dimentionality, if that's a word, someone who is many things, because we all are, but I think that we all wear a mask for our certain roles and behave a certain way that conforms with previously held views of what said role was supposed to be. Like if that makes sense. You know, and I've seen I've I had challenges in that department

throughout my career. You know, that you couldn't be funny and laugh and have a good time but also when necessary, be deadly serious. That somehow, if you exhibited this other side of you, or if you you know, went on Instagram in a bikini or did something kind of funny and silly, that that that meant that you didn't it took away from this other side of you, or it

delegitimized another side of you, which I find fascinating. And I think that's what you're saying, that that there have been these archetypes that we've had to adhere to for various roles because partially, Bose, I think it's because of the images that we've seen of the people occupying those roles. Yes,

that's right, that's right. But one of the reasons that I love you is the fan love like love love, is that you have been able to balance both of those sides in a way that I haven't seen many people in the public eye to be able to do. You know, I've tried, but I don't think I've always

been successful. You know. I think that there have been people, because they have certain expectations of how someone looks or acts or is in a certain role, that they reject you if in fact they've seen too much of the other side. So I appreciate that that you think that, but I think it's been challenging for me throughout my career. But I think what I hear you saying, bows is that people need to embrace that and use it as

an asset and be transparent about the many sides of themselves. Exactly, absolutely, Because even in that, Katie, you know, even in your ability to be funny and silly and then also deliver important information that we should take seriously, you have, I've

created a dimension that we didn't see before. And if there are difficulties and challenges and criticisms and all of the things, I my desire is that more of us would show those things, you know, more of us would be more would be transparent about that, more of us would say damn it, Okay, all right, let me figure this out because I didn't. I didn't get that right. You know that if we actually said that, we would

find that there would be so much more. Um, loyalty is the wrong word, but it's only one I can think of. But it's like a loyalty to ourselves. You know that that people would also see that. You know that if if we if we lead with difference in that way, you know that we lead with the truest form of ourselves that is very different from what is supposed to be, people will actually allow us to be,

which is such a revolutionary idea. When it comes to leadership, you know, and again, it doesn't matter what kind of leadership. It can be political, it could be business, it could be on the airwaves, it can be anywhere. And that if you are out in front and that people can see you and people are looking to you. For the example, we don't need perfection. We don't even need perfection in

the multidimensionality. You said that's the word, right, Um that you know it's it's like, Okay, I'm a fun person. Well do I need to be perfectly fun? I'm a serious person. Also, do I need to be perfectly serious? It's like, no, The answer is no, there are faults

in there and that's okay. And I think right now, in this very moment, it is where we need to be braver about showing those parts that are not perfect, even in our multidimensionality, that those imperfections, those mistakes, those learnings are all part of this and that is okay, and that people will actually accept us if we actually

showed the truest sense of ourselves. Yeah, I agree, I agree. Um, but are there people Bowse that you've seen exhibit exceptional leadership during this this time that you look to Because people are brands in a way, right, and they're all I think, giving showing us sort of how to navigate this. They're giving us something to look up to. And I'm just curious, in all your dealings talking to people, have you seen people and you think, yeah, yeah, they're doing

this right. Yes, certainly. Like you said, I'm an anthropologist of sorts and so, um, I definitely study people and I love to see how they behave and how they behave, especially in this time. And um, you already mentioned one who I think you know was a surprise but came out, Um, you know, really wonderfully Governor Cuomo. You know, I just think has been phenomenal in this time. Um. And why do you think that? I mean, I'd love to hear

specifically what you've seen. I think his communication style is exceptional, you know, in that he delivers information clearly, succinctly, um, without frill and so and I'm I'm not sure if that's a choice or is just the way that he is. Maybe it's the way he is just regularly in his day to day dealings. UM. But he doesn't add sugar, you know, he doesn't try to spin. He just says what it is. And sometimes it can feel very direct and maybe short, but I actually think it it's working.

You know, it works because people don't want to hear the extras the This is the amazing thing. Also just a little segue, which is that sometimes I think as leaders, we feel the need to be everything. You know that that you have to be the comforter and also the one who you know, gives the straight talk about all the things. And in some in some cases, especially in this, you know, delivering the information, you can just do it in a way that allows people to understand what you're saying,

and that's it. You know, you can just choose to do that. And that's what he's doing. When you listen to his his conferences. Uh, he is very to the point, you know. And I especially loved his reaction when uh, you know, his his brother, um, and I believe his sister in law also contracted the virus um in that he at that moment was the big brother. And that's what we saw when he told me he had the coronavirus. Uh, it scared me. It frightened me. Why because we still

don't know. Um, we still don't know. And even if there's just the one two percent chance, it's frightening. It is frightened and frightened me. Uh. And I deal with all sorts of stuff, and I've seen all sorts of things, and it frightened me. Why because we're talking about my my brother, talking about my little brother. This is my best friend. You know, he wasn't just the governor but some somebody's big brother. He had some sharp criticisms about

what his brother was doing. And I had a situation with Christopher two weeks ago that I even mentioned my mother was at his house, and I said, that is a mistake. Now my mother is in a different situation, and I just thought it was brilliant. I'm the eldest of four girls, you know, in that moment, I identified with him, you know, essentially chastising his younger, younger brother on TV. It is brilliant. Great again, perhaps that's just the way he is, but I thought it was so

wonderfully human to see that. Um it's it's interesting there. So there there are quite a few people. I think there are some innovators also who have come up, like

in pop culture that I think are so fascinating. Um. You know, I have talked a little bit about my good friend Derek DJ d Nice, who has emerged as a leader in music and bringing comfort to people from his apartment here in in in l a uh in that he has really brought together people using the tools that he always uses his turntables, right, he plays good music. And I remember the first night that he was going

to go on and just play music. You know, he was just like he just needed something to do, you know, he just wanted to keep the sort of the energy going and energy flowing, It's what he said. And he was like, just come on the live I'm gonna go on there. You know, I play for you know, for as long as I feel like it. And I think that first that he played for five hours Welcome Back, there might have been five people in there. You know, we were all in the comments going back and forth.

Then he was like, you know what, I think I'm gonna do it again. Tell your friends. And the next day it was like two thousand people. The third night it was ten thousand people, and it's like, holy where did all these people come from? You know, it was crazy. And then at his peak, he crested just over a hundred thousand people to point where it like crashed Instagram. They needed to figure out new ways of bandwidth. I mean, it was insane, you know. And now it's like he's

doing these partnerships with Michelle Obama on voting. You know, I saw him on some morning shows. Um I think he got you know, he's doing some merchandise with Will Smith. It was just it's just the wildest thing. But to think that someone who is taking his platform, which he was simply doing what he always does, you know, which he us to do. By the way, he DJ my DJ my forty birthday party. And I was, you know, trying my best not to sweat out my my hair

and makeup and it was destroyed that night. So from personal experience, I can tell you he's he's really really great. But I just find that his leadership, even in this moment of just bringing people, um, the gift that he has and connecting people is remarkable. Um, it's a It's remarkable, you know that that anyone in this time can essentially take up the ban of leadership and do it in a way that is relevant, it is timely, and it is authentic to the word that we've used. You know,

they're simply using the tools that they've already have. This is not about you know, learning French all of a sudden, you know, or learning how to play a new instrument, although I've seen you play the piano, and I really want to know how to play the piano. But that's a whole another conversation. But you know what I mean that like this, this is the moment that I've seen leaders just become more of who they are and an a on a larger platform, and that is remarkably wonderful.

That's so interesting, you know, both because I had I've been making contributions to a lot of organizations and um, and yet I feel and I've been sort of visiting an elderly gentleman I met at the drug store last summer because he lives by himself, to to to make sure he's okay. But I said to my friend the other day, I really want to get out there and do more. And you know, you don't have to to

wait for other organizations to do something great. I mean, I think the fact that everyone has a platform now there really aren't the gatekeepers that were once there. And one of the great things is you can you can do uh, you can do something amazing just yourself, you know, whether it's rallying your community, because I think a lot of people the need is so great and there's so

many people who need help. That can be overwhelming to like where do I give, even if it's ten dollars or twenty dollars or five dollars or a thousand dollars, whatever you can do, And sometimes you can just say, hey, there's this need in my community. Let's all get together and let's all do something for the people in our town, you know, or let's all start a fund for all the grocery store workers that are putting themselves at risk

every day. Um, you know I think that still, we sometimes wait for something bigger to tell us what to do, to instruct us where we can actually just do it ourselves. Yes, that's exactly right. And um, you know it's so interesting. I have recently begun to run outside. Uh six months ago. You could not have made me run for a mile or more. There's no way. I mean, I'm like, am i am I running from a bear? Okay, but just like running for fun? I don't think so. Um, but

I started to run in my neighborhood. Um, usually very early, you know, it's like literally around dawn or so, and no one is no one is awake. But it feels fresh and it feels rejuvenating to me. And I don't know who this person is. I'm assuming it's a child. Um, but they've written messages on the sidewalk, you know, like these just little positive messages and you know sometimes the ray bows and keep going and one more step and I just I literally, I mean I was so emotional

the first of my side. I literally cried, you know, like stopped on the sidewalk and cried and I just thought, wow, like that is such a wonderful thing. You know that right now we all have that the ability to create in this moment, and but I do want a caveat and saying that, you know, this is very much like every other scenario, which is that if you are not well, you can't help other people be well, you know, And so we do have to pay attention to ourselves and

make sure that we're also not over extending. And that's not just you know, for us sort of in the community, that's for the leadership too. And that's like leaders like are you peaceful? Are you saying are you feeling healthy? Not just physically but emotionally, you know, before you take

on the added things. And by the way, I think, how amazing would it be if if any one of our leaders said that they were really having a hard time emotionally, you know, right now, and they would use themselves as the example on how to even engage on wellness. Like that's that's the next thing I'm waiting for, you know,

who's going to do? I do? I do feel like you're starting to see those walls kind of start to come tumbling down, if not with leaders, but with celebrities or personalities who are being incredibly transparent about their emotional state, and I think you're gonna you're going to see that more.

I think, you know, it gets tricky because it's such a thin line, our fine line, I think bows between doing something out of a place of honesty and transparency and doing something out of a place of uh of where there might be ulterior motives, right, And I think people can sniff that out so quickly. And you know, I think it's all about when you're talking about greenwashing.

You know, companies that care about environmental sustainability, do they really care about environmental sustainability or are they doing that because they think they should care about environmental sustainability. And I think that's that's such a tricky thing because I think with the world being flat in terms of social media, people can can I think, become very cynical. Right, So I think you have all these different forces that work, so you have to I'm sure you consider that when

you're talking to brands, like what is their true north? Then? Is it? Is it true? Or is it is it a way to manipulate consumers into seeing things their way? Right? I mean that must be tricky. Yes, that is very tricky. It is probably the trickiest you know, because there's this belief that you can't switch lanes or you can't switch gears because people would think that we're being fake, you know, And the council that I give constantly is that, what

what what is your reason for doing it? You know, if it if it is not authentic, you know, if it's not true, then yeah, of course you're doing the wrong thing. Okay, it's like it's really that simple, you know.

But if you are doing it for the right reasons, if you had a you know, sudden, like you know, ootional reaction to the ways that maybe your business is dealing with this very moment in time, and you decided that you wanted to send out a different message, you wanted to create something new, you know, maybe you want to shut down a plant and makes a hand sanitizer instead. Then do that, you know, do that, and it's almost like, you know, forget what the critics say, you know, don't

worry about how people are going to interpret it. But are you going to sleep better at night? You know, are you going to feel like you contributed that you did all that you could do right now? If you do, then great, do that. Please don't worry about what everybody else is going to say, you know, we'll all have critics, all of us. All of us have critics one way

or another, you know. But if you really feel like you're doing the right thing with the right information that you have at this moment, and you can make a difference and you feel like you should you can do that with your company, then please do it, you know, And that is that is what I counsel all the time. And other words, don't overthink it, don't overthink it. Please, yes, act, just do it. When we come back, Bozeman and I share a certain bond you'll find out after this. Now

back to my conversation with Bozma. Saint John Bose, you've had such an interesting career and you're only forty three years old, and give us your quick cv UM in terms of I know you went to to Wesleyan, you grew up in Colorado Springs. Your family, your parents are both from Ghana and UM, and you've always loved popular culture. So take it from there. Yeah, okay, So graduating from Wesleyan,

I moved to New York City. UM got a job as Spike Lee's assistant at his advertising agency, which is called Spike d D Bus a joint venture with d dB Needham, which is the one of the large advertising agencies in Madison Avenue, and I fell in love, you know, with advertising and marketing. I was supposed to go into med school, but um that pop culture thing, it's a bug, you know. It got under my skin and into my heart and out of my pores, and I couldn't get

rid of it. So there you go. I UM I began working there, I guess as an assistant and then quickly graduated to being a coordinator. And by the time I left there four years later, UM I was helping to win the big accounts like the Pepsi, which actually became the next job that I did. Went to Pepsi and ran um a few of the brands for about a decade, including Pepsi and Mountain Dew and Aquafina. There was a flavor splash and there for a quick moment.

It's defunct now not my fault. But had a really great time at Pepsi and and it's actually where I I believe the the inflection point came for me, uh and in my marketing career, because I realized that the convergence of what I loved about pop culture and what could happen from a business standpoint really converged, and so I began a group, a new group within the marketing organization at PEPSI called the Music Entertainment Division that I ran for a number of years and it it UM

all sort was responsible for partnerships with the NFL and you know, a bunch of other big leagues and big entertainment platforms. But one of the most notable partnerships that I did at that time was with Beyonce for her

Super Bowl hattime ship performance. That it um and it was a really wonderful moment because it was the first time a black woman had been on that stage in a decade since Janet Jackson's wardrobe malfunction, and m that was very, very hard fought and I felt extraordinarily proud, you know, of the moment and that Beyonce really just I mean, that woman took over the stage and there was no denying, you know, that someone like her could

entertain a very large audience. But in any case, that that inspired me um to just continue on the path of pop culture and finding the convergence. But um, as as with many people, you know, sometimes life gets in into your grand plans. UM. And about eight months after you know that performance with Beyonce, my husband's UM cancer had been diagnosed as terminal and I had to focus,

you know, all my energy on his survival UM. But unfortunately he did not survive his cancer, and when he passed away a couple of months later, it was a you know, reflection point for me to try and figure out what I really want to do. You know, I had a four year old and did to continue to support and life that I needed to get back to UM and also an unapologetic love of my work, you

know that UM. I really wanted to get back to it something that made me feel good, and I took a really big chance at the time, which now in retrospect maybe doesn't look like a big chance, but as sure as hell was. I left PEPSI after the decade and moved from New York to California, where I joined Jimmy Ivan and Dr Dre as they were launching a

new division of their company, Beats by Dre. They started Beats Music, which was a music streaming service, and I had no idea what the hell I was doing, but but it sounded good, you know, It's like something something big and UH exciting and something to figure out, you know, that could pour all my energy into. And a few months after I joined the company, UM, we worked to be acquired by Apple. Uh. And then I threw all of my energy into UM sunsetting Beats music and building

Apple Music, which then I did for another few years. UH. And then another inflection point, you know, being in tech and being a black woman in tech had sparked something. You know, there was interest in what leadership could look like for somebody quote unquote different in that space. And there's a lot of questions around how I could connect with tech audiences, especially following my Apple dubbed d C performance where I UM showed the world the new interface

of Apple Music. And there was a lot of I think speculation before that about whether or not someone who was not Steve Jobs, someone who you know, it was not a white man wearing jeans and a button down shirt or a black turtleneck, if they could connect to a wide audience that's a tech based audience. And we

prove that that is true. UM. And so in the middle of that, I met Vis Kalinik, who is the who is the founder of Uber and he was going through some slight troubles at the time, and he um, he and I met and talked for hours about you know,

what Uber could do to be a catalyst for change. Actually, you know, it was my position that it wasn't so much about apologizing and looking backwards, but how could the company as a poster child for everything that was wrong, you know, with sexual harassment or behavior against women and lack of diversity, Like, how could that company be the poster child as a catalyst, you know, for change in tech? Um and I did that for a year, but so so clearly, just to interrupt for two seconds posed obviously

that would have been quite a turnaround. But was it just too deeply embedded in the DNA of that company too to be the change they wished to see? Nice? Nice one there. I like that because I really it's a good thing. I mean, I really, yes, I love but that's literally one of my favorites because it's truly about being you know, which I I truly love and and believe deeply. But you're right, I think there was

so much going against the company. Um. You know, it was interesting to see the victual that was aimed at the company for what I felt were ills that were at every company, you know that I couldn't see. I couldn't in my experience, there hadn't been one company that had all the solutions you know that was a warm place for people of color, you know, to feel like you know, I was like, is there a Valhalla? Because if there is, show me and I will actually go there.

But I have not found it. Um So that was a big challenge when I think that just in general, there were so many management changes at the time, couldn't find its footing. You know that if if there was more time and more allowance, you know, to be able

to correct that, I perhaps could have um stayed. But you know, there were a lot of different inputs, but mostly just you know the fact that, um, I felt that my view of what needed to happen and the company's view of what needed to happen we're not aligned. And um you know, it's one of those decisions that I've made that I was not sure if it was right at the time, but I'm sure it's how glad I made the choice to leave, now you know. Um yeah, yeah, well so it led me to where I am today.

And yes, yes, yes, what is it about it that

you that you like so much. Well, endeavor is like the center of all things pop culture, all the things that I have loved, you know, in life and in my career, whether it's music or film or books or oh gosh, commentary, politics, you know, the whole thing, everything, um and I really enjoy the thought of and also the action of creating messaging, whether it's large, you know, on big theater screens or it is small on social media screens, that helped to evolve the narrative, you know,

of of our collective human experience. That if I can be at the table, you know, to help people understand not only their own power, but also help them navigate the way that they manage their stories, that perhaps we have a better society and a better human society because of that. You know that if I can help people the word authentic he's coming up, But if I could

help people be more authentic, you know. So sometimes I have conversations with different artists or you know, creators, and the questions always, you know, well, how how do I, you know, sell this thing you know, or what is the thing that everybody's excited about? And how do I get close to that? Thing, and my perpess is always like, no,

it's not, it's not outside, you know. It's like people want to connect to whatever you have, you know, the deeply embedded thing that is special about you, and that's what they actually, that's actually the magic, you know, So let's pull that out. And so it often feels like therapy, you know. It often feels like conversations where we're talking about what is so special and unique about the particular project or the person you know that can just be highlighted more in a in a in a bigger way,

and that has been really really wonderful, you know. And and so it's like not just the individual people, but yeah, the companies and the brands too, and helping helping to navigate um, their marketing strategies and vision for what could be a really dope society. I think we should call our podcast dope society. Yes, that's what we should call it. Well, I'm super excited about exploring not only UH people and leadership, but important cultural moments and seismic shifts and how we

can make a new normal a better normal. And um, I can't think of anybody who who I'd enjoy spending time with Bows and exploring some of these things more than you. So I'm super excited about some of the conversations we're going to have in the future, and and I'm so grateful for the conversation we had today as well. I appreciate that Katie same here. I'm very excited about these conversations we're going to have. Um. Yes, I believe we're going to have a Dope Society based on what

we discussed. And that does it for this episode of Next Question. I hope you all got to know Bows a little bit better because next week will be the first of our special ten episodes series, which we're not calling Dope Society, but we are calling back to biz

with Katie and Bows. I'm really excited to partner with Bose so we can explore a lot of meata topics in our changing world, like what leadership looks like today, what could rise from the ashes of disruption, and lessons from our own careers, our successes are failures, and even our missteps, including a recent comment I made about an interview I've done with Denzel Washington and why many people found it offensive. We're looking forward to learning from each

other and growing in the process. So look out for what we're hoping will be important conversations on our Next Question feed, which you can find on Apple Podcasts, the I Heart Radio app, or wherever you get your podcasts, and for more from me and some of the interesting people I get to speak to make sure you sign up for my morning newsletter is called wake Up Call, and you can do that by going to Katie Couric dot com. So until next time and my Next Question,

I'm Katie Couric, Thanks so much for listening. Next Question with Katie Couric is a production of I Heart Radio and Katie Curreic Media. The executive producers are Katie Kurik, Courtney Litz, and Tyler Klang. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Our show producer is Bethan Macaluso. The associate producers are Emily Pinto and Derek Clements. Editing by Derrek Clements, Dylan Fagan and Lowell Berlante, Mixing by Dylan Fagan. Our researcher

is Gabriel Loser. For more information on today's episode, go to Katie Currek dot com and follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Katie Curk. For more podcasts for My Heart radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.