Bowen Yang found his sense of humor during fourth grade recess

we made them straight. Not to mention all sorts of guest spots on hit comedy shows like Aquafina's Nora from Queens, You're Dumplings, Look like the Pillsbury dood Boy Got Hate Crimes, and The New Girls five Beba. I just shook. This is real, pet, that's right. He's Bowen Yang. Wow, thank you for having me. This is um This is very thrilling.

We got the full Bowen picture, from how we developed his great sense of humor to how is Sketch about an Iceberg became an Internet since station, But we started by talking about his success and what he makes of it. I don't know. I don't know, Katie, I mean, like, what do you make of it? Like? How should I be? I feel like you've talked to so many people that you must have some mental model of like what the

best mindset is for people. Well, I don't know. I feel like you were kind of destined for this moment and this opportunity. No no, no, no no, just reading all about you and your life and you know the fact that your high school voted to you most likely to appear on SNL, which is so funny and it's just listen. It's just sort of everything kind of came together, and so I hope you're enjoying it. I hope you're not so neurotic that you can't be like, wow, this

is pretty eff and cool. Well, I thank you for saying that, because I think that has that has been something that's like not held me back in any way. But I whatever, I mean, you you probably can relate to this. They asked me to write this like commencement speechie thing for this like um whatever, this podcast that's

like putting out commencement speeches. And I wrote something, and I thought about I thought back to my own commencement, like my graduation experiences, and the theme for both of those was that I was not present, that I was just living in anxiety about what was coming next, and I wish that I had sort of like understood that, you know, commencement ceremonies like that are important for this, like they're important unto themselves, Like they're important because you

don't because life doesn't give you opportunities to like ceremoniously celebrate yourself in any way or like where you're at.

And I think I have very kind I wrote that, and then I consciously thought, wow, maybe I should do this, like this should apply to me now right, like I should be kind of sitting very still whenever I can, with the idea that like, wow, this is this is why, I mean, this is really special and I am living the suxceptional thing that I think has happened both serendipitously and fortuitously but also through through work, and like there's there's there's a way to think about that in some

balanced way. And then my parents were in town this weekend. Um, I saw your mom on Saturday night. She was so cute. I loved her kissing you and then trying to yeah, yeah, it was a good beat. It was a really cute Did you guys come up with that together? That was something that the writers of The Cold Open, Sudie Green and Friend Gillespie did and I mean they had to write some quick little comedy. They did a great job.

And I mean my my mom had a blast and she had a lot of compliments from from people at the show, being like, I mean prop work that is that is not easy, that's very technical on TV and so but yeah, I means she was in town and she was even she turned to me yesterday she goes, but when you're very lucky to be doing what you're doing, and I go, yeah, you're right, Like I kind of I have gotten to some like jaded points in recent in the past year that I've thought, oh God, like

this is I'm I'm sort of like just kind of going through the motions sometimes and thinking that it's not something that I I'm doing with the enthusiasm that I want to have. Does that make sense? Yeah, But I also think the pandemic sort of screwed everybody up, So I think you should give yourself a pass on kind of feeling some ambivalence, right, Yeah, yeah, totally, totally, totally.

I just but yeah, I mean, like, I but you're right, like this is I should be sitting with this with as little to rosy as as possible, or or in some healthy positioning where I don't have to think about how God do I deserve this? Do I this? Do I that? Yeah? Yeah, and you know, just enjoying it because you know it's interesting because the work is work, but it's also work that clearly you have been sort of training for in one way or another your whole life.

And sure and preparing for this interview. I loved hearing sort of your really fascinating life story about your mom and dad. They're both born in China, Yes, and both very accomplished, right. Your dad's an engineer, uh sort of with mining expertise, your mom is an ob g y n UM and you all came to this country. Where did where did they first move? So they first moved They met in China, and they first moved to Brisbane, Australia,

where my dad was getting his doctorate. And then at that point my mom sort of made the sacrifice to um, I mean her, her her license didn't just transfer over when she when she moved out of China, and so she was sort of just making sure that we were all kind of that the children were being raised for

a while before she got back into work. When we moved to Canada, we moved to Kingston, Ontario then and then um Montreal, UM, and then that's where my sister and I were up until we were up until I was like eight or nine, and then we moved to Denver, Colorado in n and then I grew up there until end of high school and then moved here in New York to New York for college and I've just been here ever since. But yeah, it's then that that's like

a really crazy little commonwealth pall thing that they've played. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And your parents, do your parents still live in Aurora or where do they live now? They're in Aurora. My mom just retired a month ago, and it's looking good on her and she but now so so now she's in Atlanta, UM with my sister and she's raising two kids there and so my and so my mom's helping out,

and so it's it's it's at all. She just seems I mean, she seems like genuinely happy and relaxed and in a good state that I haven't really sort of been able to like see up close in a while because of because of work, because of the pandemic and so yeah, I mean, like I I took in a moment of gratitude last night when I you know, went out with them for for for dinner, and I was just like, okay, like I can just sort of soak this moment into where like I see my mom and

dad being sort of happy and it all sort of aligned correctly after like a whole life to my lifetime of just like hardship and sacrifice, and then letting me know that like, you know, you wouldn't have been born, you're the second child, you wouldn't have been born if we had stayed in China, you know, like they sort of they don't like very spitefully remind me of that, but they But every now and then my mom will be like, you know, sometimes I think about what would

have happened, but what our lives would have been like if we if your dad and I had stayed in China, and and then that would have meant that I wouldn't have been born with them the one child only policy, And so every now and then that kind of really messes with me on an existential level. But then I think, oh, but then I should that just means I should be even more grateful, you know, or whatever. I should just experience this on a sensory level. Let's talk about growing up.

Because were you always the funny kid Bowen? Were you the guy? Were you the class clown? Well? I was. It was something that was like assigned to me in a way, or it was just like a mirrored like someone would tell you. Someone would tell me, oh, you're you're funny, or you're like you're being a little like you're being the class clown in a way that that was either pejorative or complimentary. And so because we would move around a lot, and even like in Canada we

switched I I switched schools once or twice. It was a thing where you had to adapt and as a kid, that's very sort of tumultuous. But then the move from Canada from Quebec, where I spoke French in school and English was like the tertiary language literally because it was French in school, you know, Mandarin and at home uh and then English every now and then when you would like run into like when a babysitter, bird come over

or something. Um. But then moving from Quebec to Denver, was this this this really intense shock I know, it seems like Canada and in the US are similar enough, but it was this thing where I was like, oh gosh, like this is a whole new culture, you know. Um. And I think I realized that even as a kid, um, because I was moving to Colorado right after Johnny Ramsay, which happened in Boulder and in Columbine, and I was like, Colorado is the place where the people get murdered. And

I was just like so terrified. Um as like you know an eight year old and nine year old that I was like, uh, I think I went to school. I remember the first day of school, going into the fourth grade, just feeling anxious and just feeling like, um, just going into that kid logic of being like, well, you know, my mom's gonna drop me off and then she's gonna get into a car accident and I'm gonna,

you know, be an orphan. It's really fourth So you you were very cognizant of Jampany Ramsey and Columbine at what eight or nine years old? Yeah, because I mean it was all over the news. I mean back then it was like all believe me because I covered all that stuff. Yeah. But that's interesting that it kind of uh seeped into your mindset and made you anxious, understandably totally.

And it was the thing that um, you know, teachers in Montreal would be like, well, Bowen, Bowen's maybe into Colorado to the US and we all know what happened there recently. It was kind of like that, I mean, very morbid, very very very very very sad and scary. Goot get him. And then I remember going to school, um, not knowing how to make friends, not really being able

to speak the language. And then um, by like the second week at recess, I had cheered up enough girls who were who are who were like crying because someone had said something mean to them or something that I'd like run over there and like just try to like get them, get them to stop crying or something, and just because it made me upset to see them so

so upset. And that by like the third week of school, this girl Victoria Results, and I've I've run into her recently and I've told her this story, but she was like, oh, when you're so funny, And that was like this like someone conferring upon me this identity that I was, you know, funny or I could like turn something on to to make someone laugh or something elicit that out of them, and then and then from there, like I really kind

of attached myself to that in a deep point. I was like, well, this is my purpose in life is to like do this. Um, but it sounds like it was mixed with a lot of empathy. You know, that you were very conscious of when people were suffering, Like a lot of kids probably wouldn't go over there and help someone who had been hurt, So that it's kind of an an unusual quality for a little boy, specially.

I don't mean to gender no, but um, I think it takes a certain emotional intelligence to kind of pick up on those things and to go to someone's rescue that way. So you did have empathy along with the ability to make people laugh, right, Oh my gosh. I mean the fact that you are observing this out of like immediately kind of picking up on this after I after I sort of share that is is why you're Katie correct. But anyway, but yeah, I guess, I guess. So yeah, so you you became sort of the funny guy.

And you not only became the funny guy, but you also were obsessed with SNL. What at what age did you start watching the show? I mean it probably a too young age because it was right when I moved to the US. And I don't believe we got it in Canada back then in the nine in the late nineties, because I didn't hear about it until I moved to the U s And then I forgot who was the host one day, um, one one week, but my sister told me about, Um, I'm going over to my friend's

house to watch this show called SNL. I was like, I haven't heard of that, and she goes, oh, it's the show where it's you know, little comedy skits is how she described it. And you know, there's a celebrity each week that comes in and is in all of them. I was like, that sounds so cool. And then a friend at school had also just been a fan of the show. And this was back in like the CHERRYO Terry Will Ferrell, Chris Kitan era, and so it was all very broad and big and wacky and don't do drugs.

Who yeah, oh my god, I mean the Spartans like that was like that was like my way in and you know, and and I was Charlie's there, and that was my first episode that I ever saw, Charlie's theren was was the host there, and I went over to my friend's house to watch it on a Saturday night. It was the neighbor's house and so I think my parents like them my parents. It was just a dinner party situation. And then it was Saturday, and so we stayed up and launched and I thought, wow, this is

this is so cool and it's live. I mean, it just it was just so many. It was just such a get me up to speed on what American pop culture was because I wasn't super tapped into it growing up, even just in Canada before we moved, wasn't super tapped into it because my parents, you know, forbade cable. They were like no cable, no TV whatever, all that stuff.

And then on Saturdays I would get to watch and that was sort of my way of like learning and getting the download on like what was happening in the world, you know, and did when did you think? God, I want to be on that show. I would love to be in that ecosystem of SNL. I mean like with I mean like pretty immediately, but I never I would

never even allow yourself why I wouldn't. I wouldn't even conceive of the idea of I would be that that that I would be on the show, and not for any representation reason necessarily, but just because I was like, I don't know, like it's such a big chasm of like of like knowing of of having the idea of all I want to be on SNL to being on SNL,

like I did not know. I remember going on. I was curious about it enough to like go on to like online like message boards on like IMDb or something back when they had message boards, um, and it was just looked into what the audition process was or a researched like what Will Ferrell's audition process was, you know, and seeing that, you know, you had to sort of go through a program, some some developmental program at some comedy theater too to to get noticed by a scout,

I was just like, that sounds so foreign to me, and I have no idea what the entry point is, and so I'm just going to maybe resign myself to being like a fan from AFAR for the rest of my life. And I was completely okay with I'd like accepted that pretty pretty quickly. I want to say it turns out he didn't have to accept that after all, Diddy, We're going to get to SNL a little bit later in our conversation, but coming up conversion therapy and Bowen's

complicated coming out story that's right after this. Before you go to n y U. You're in high school and your mom and dad discovered that you're gay, and uh, tell me about what that was like. And I'm curious if if it was you know, at the if there was any kind of cultural aspect to them understanding you know, your your sexual preference because of being from China, and just I'm fascinated by that. Can you set the stage and how they discovered it and what happened? Yeah, yeah,

I might. I might be bouncing back and forth between some some things that come back to me. But I came home one day. It was senior year of high school, and I'd come out to friends sophomore year of high school at that point. Um, and then especially after my sister left for college, My sister goes to n y U. So then at that point she's not there to like be this you know, liaison between me and my parents. I mean she because she would sort of keep an eye on me at school and and sort of keep

me straight I mean figuratively speaking. Um. Uh So then by the time she left for college, I felt some like self definition, self awareness sort of kind of happening. Um. And then it was like, you know, I'm gay. I

can tell my friends. I'm going to keep it a secret from my parents, just because I knew that this was something that they would have, um a hard time understanding because of this cultural element of coming from China, where um, you'd watch a movie or something there'd be a gay character or a gay kiss or something, and I'd hear my dad especially say, this is so, this is crazy, like that we never we never had people

like this in China. And he and he and he grew up in you know, in a very rural area. Um it's I mean like these like this arid farm in the middle of the desert and and and and mainly in China, and so um it's not that he but but but to him, I mean, he sort of understood as fact that like there were no gay, queer people at all where he grew up. But it's just he still has a hard I still have a hard time explaining to him. No, it's not that they weren't

gay people where he gripped at. It's that you just didn't know about them, um or they kept it a secret or something. And I come home one day from from class senior year. I meanwhile, I mean the signs were there, the signals were there. I was I was big into theater. I you know, I most of my friends were just like I just had a certain sensibility about them. And so I came home one day, uh, to an open chat window that I had just like just it was. It was very salacious, not so clean

chat window that I had open. And then my my mother had printed out this this exchange and sort of had me go through it and just be like you you you have to explain this. And then pretty quickly, um my dad comes home and it's just me. It's just it's just the three of us at home. My sisters off in college, so it's the three of us just having these long, long, painful conference, painful conversations. I just had to be like, yeah, this is this is

this is it. This is who I am. And it wasn't me coming out on my own terms, but at that point I just had to own up to it because there had been like suspicions before that, my pay that there had been things that my parents just kind of decided to look the other way on. Um. But this was finally a time where I thought, you know, I'm about to go I'm about to go to college. I don't want to keep secrets from them. I've been found out, but I might as well own up to it.

How did they react? Do you remember I had not seen my father cry since I don't only my father cry once, and that was when my grandfather passed away, when his father passed away. And then I was coming home to him and my mother crying every single day for like two weeks and just being like and just truly feeling that, um, viscerally, I had done something wrong, that I had caused them pain and pain at a

level that I had not seen from my dad. Um. And just like you know Asian soap opera, heaving sobs from both of them and just must have been really painful for you as a high school senior too, to witness that. Sure, yeah, absolutely, and and so and so I mean with that, with that sort of context, and with the context of them being these two scientifically minded people and these these immigrants who had like sacrificed so much.

I mean, the idea of me moving to a country where I didn't speak the language and I would be like automatically in the minority, it just as wild to me. Wild to me, and and and I didn't take that for granted back then. And then they also were solutions oriented people, and so to them. I mean, my dad didn't understand sort of the what the cultural forces behind what conversion therapy meant, but he was he was out here looking for solutions and he came across a solution

one day. I come home a couple of weeks after I, uh, you know, the chat window had been printed out. I came home to my dad presenting to me this sheet of paper, this this website that he'd printed out of this you know, the therapist who was based out of Colorado Springs, UM, who specialized in this, in this conversion therapy. And he said, we are going to go down there

once a week. And it's a it's a two hour drive, two hour right each way, but we're gonna go We're gonna go there once a week, UM, and you're gonna talk to this man and it will be for eight sessions. It'll be through the summer. And the ultimatum was if you if you go to these sessions, then you can go to college out of state. And I all I had wanted was to was to leave Colorado for school and just and be in New York or being I mean, my choices were between U C l A and n

y U. Those are my final two choices. And then they had kind of given me this ultimatum to be like, you can go to those schools if you go to this this therapy. And again, I mean, but I also wanted just like put that in context. It was not like a threat. It was just like, please just do this for us. I mean it was it was the dynamic of this was it was constantly shifting. It was either I was I was doing something wrong or that they were, or that they were in more pain than

I was. I mean, it was very hard to gauge um, and for me as a seventeen year old to be like, what what is what is going on? Um? So as I just went with it because I had never seen my parents this miserable. I was like, I have to do right by them in some way for them to stop feeling this this pain. UM. So then I mean, by then I had I had sort of decided to go to n y U because my sister was there.

And that was also another element of it, because they my parents would feel better about me going to n y U because my sister could be there as sort of this chaperone figure. Um. But yeah, I went to eight sessions of this um conversion therapy and what was that? What was conversion therapy like going? You know, it was actually at banal overall, which which kind of surprises people, like it wasn't like the melodramatic thing of like electrodes

or whatever it was. It was. It was it was me and and and the people who to do experience that. Um gosh, I mean, there's I'm very lucky that that's not what that was for me. UM. But what it was for me was this easing into this like framework that UM, same sex attractions are like un uncouth or should be undesirable or um are morally sort of wrong. And you know the first few sessions were pretty standard, just resembled talk therapy, resembled like even the therapy that

I have. Now I'm like, oh, this is remarkably similar to what I my first experience with this, which was under these very wild pretenses um, but that and by the fourth or fifth session, he had started to sort of work in this thing of like, okay, let's go through one by one or or as specifically as you can, like instances where you felt attracted to another man. And I was like, wait, I haven't cataloged all of them

like individually, but okay, we'll start with this. And then he would just kind of try to link those um moments to some physical sensation like physical sense memory, and then and then it was it would be kind of leading questions two, get me to say that I was attracted to another man because I was feeling bad about myself or because I was in physical discomfort or pain

or something. And it was just sort of this like very insidious way of like trying to tell me or internalize this idea that like being gays, to to have that your sexual preference is a is a result of your external circumstances, that a strange association. And so you go through all these sessions for your parents because you love them, and as you said, you've never seen them

so miserable. And did you come home and say or did you kind of let sleeping dogs lie head off to n y U and just hope that time would acclimate them and make them become more accepting. It was the ladder, but then even at the bed there was like a one inch tall person in my head that was like, maybe this, maybe this works, Maybe this works. Maybe you go to n y U and everyone tries

to reinvent themselves in some way when they go to college. Um, I was like, maybe you try this on for size being straight, and so UM went to m y U my freshman year, I move in with my sister. UM did not do that, did not do the dorms. Moved in with my sister and thought, wow, okay, I mean she is the room next to mine. She knows everything that I am doing, and that's sort of a that's sort of an interesting experience for me to like go to college and like still and feel like I'm a family.

And Um it was. But it was a great time. I mean, like she and I still say, like, I mean we were great roommates. We were great roommates. Which was she accepting though of the fact that you were gay or I mean, how where did she come down on this? She was put in this very tough spot to like mediate both sides, um, just to just to truly be someone who had to like communicate between me and my parents, whether it was because of a language barrier or cultural barrier or whatever, like this is where

this person is coming from. And and I think both sides, both me and my parents were upset at her for different reasons at various points. I mean, I remember one time, Um, she knocked on my door and sort of slipped um or she knocked on my door and she handed me this book that was written by some like conversion therapy and quack and I was just like, I don't want to read that, um. And then she was like, well, it would mean a lot to mom and dad if you did. And I remember being very upset at her

for a long time, um, for that specific incident. Um. So she was kind of she was trying to keep the peace and the family totally. And she and like that's its own sort of emotional labor that like I still haven't fully like not appreciated, but I haven't fully like thought about that in a way that like, oh God, like she was in her own tough spot, she was in her own personal health when when when that whole situation happened, it wasn't even like this side versus that, um.

It was like my parents sort of expressing some care and love for me because they had been socialized to think that being gay was um COINI sent me back, it was going to put me in danger and all these different things, and they were just they were being protective. And I think it's it's hard. It's still hard to pass out where that protective instinct starts and where the homophobia ends or the other way around, you know, And

how are they feeling. Was there a moment where, uh, you felt like your parents kind of adjusted or accepted and said this is you know, because it's interesting, I've been writing a memoir and I I was looking back at how we covered Matthew Shepard and then I interviewed Jim o'burghafell, who was the plaintiff in the Supreme Court case that legalized same sex marriage. And it's actually really

unbelievable how far we have come. It's something that we don't really it just in the last twenty five years or more when it comes to you know, accepting gay relationships, etcetera, and really celebrating gay relationships and how are they feeling today versus you know, your thirty. So this we're talking about twelve years ago, right or twelve or thirteen years ago? Have they kind of reached at least maybe an uncomfortable acceptance or how are they feeling about it now? I

think they have reached it? Um, I mean yesterday. I mean yeah again, I'm thirty and so uh, naturally they're thinking about grandkids for me, I mean kids for me, and so they're like, how would you go about that?

And I'd be like, well, if I wanted if I wanted kids, then this is how maybe I would think about this or that, and they and they were like, okay, interesting, well, and then I brought up I brought up bed Wong Um, who who I'm close with and who is um who if who I've worked with very recently, and he and I have this very sort of mentorment he bond that I'm I'm very grateful for. And I brought him up and I was like, you know, he's had this center.

She just naturally came up in conversation and then Um slowly sort of revealed that he was gay. Because I don't think my parents really realized and then I was like, and he has this kid who was in college now. And then my dad was like, he was married to a woman. I was like, no, um, you know he got a surrogate and all this stuff. Um. And then he was like interesting. So he I mean, he's he's

he's adjusting to it. It's not fully inconceivable to him that this kind of thing happens in the real world. But the if there was a moment. This also involves my sister because I had done this interview with Maureen Deaf for The New York Times my first season on the cast of SNL, and she had sort of in her way, I mean, she was just mooring down. She's great, but she got she teased out of me these details

about the conversion there. I mean, I hadn't ever shared that in that on that scale or in that public way before, and it was just like in the newspaper, was on the Sunday Times, and I was just like, whoa,

this is crazy. And my first thought was, my parents are going to be upset in some way that they're that um, something this personal as being aired out, and that this is something that they're going to have to go into work the next day and their coworkers are gonna are going to know that this is something that

they did or you know or whatever. And then my sister called me the day after that Peace came out and she was like, that profile came out and she was like, you know, Mom and Dad read the profile and actually they I think they've come to some better understanding of like what that time was like for you, and that they I think I think they're moving closer and closer to just like full on acceptance. And I was like, wow, interesting. I mean, that really surprised me

that that that was their takeaway. Rather than thinking what does this mean for me? They were thinking were so embarrassed or you know, we're ashamed that we put our some through that, right, you know, on so many different levels they could have had reactions absolutely, but instead they're they're parental thought was, oh, what is what did this mean for our son? And I mean I just that kind of surprised me and in a very sort of

meaningful way. Um. So I think it's it's it's been very incremental um over the past twelve years, and probably like the way that it's been sort of collectively incremental um for everybody. We're going to take a short break. But when we come back, the grueling SNL audition process and that viral Titanic sketch. I think my publicist was very clear, I'm not here to talk about the sinking that's right after this. What did you major in it? N y U? I was the chemist stream major. What

I was? I was? I was. I was a b A in chemistry and not a b S. Most of I was a Bachelor in Arts and chemistry. I mean that that I was. I was. So I was on

the premed track. I was thinking, you know, I got I gotta hang up the comedy dream because I was doing like short form improv in high school and going downtown and like, you know this, this one of my favorite teachers who I still keep in touch with sort of was the sponsor of the improv group in high school, was the assistant director at the theater downtown, and so like he was my gateway in and UM just was that kid, And like on college tours, I'd be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, cool,

So do you guys have an improv group here? Like I was that that guy, UM for better or worse. But then I go to N y U, and I kind of put all my social eggs in one basket, which was to get on the improv group there, because um, you know, it was very it seemed very seamlessly integrated into the comedy the leaders that are here in New York at the time that we're here in New York

at the time. And I thought, m my, U is gonna be great because I'm gonna have all these friends who like comedy as much as I do, who have like, you know, watched this many episodes of The Simpsons or Seinfelder, you know, like just like Matt TV SNL all of that. And then I did find those people. And then throughout college, I was on this improv group with all of these Tische kids, these these these arts kids who were in

you know, studying film and TV. Yeah, yes, And I was sort of the odd person for for not being you know, a Tische kid. And I was like, oh, I'm a chemistry major. But all of them were talking about going on to um, you know, do these things in the industry. And I was like, I guess I'll I guess I'll go to med school. Like my senior year, I was like, is this right? And then and then

commencement at m my U was a Yankee stadium. And then I look around and all of my friends are like so excited for the next thing, and UM, not that this is uncommon, but I was, and I was just like, no, what is what is? What is my life going to be? Like? I don't think I'm doing the right thing. And then I I went in for my m CAT the second time, UM at UM one Pen Plaza right next to Penn Station here in New York City, and that was where the testing center was.

And I got to the to the long to the short answer section and then as soon as as soon as the cursor blinked, I thought back on this interview that I read Steve Correll do Or. He talked about going applying to law school UM when he was struggling and he got to the he got to the personal essay section of the law school application and he thought, I can't do this. I can't do this. And I

and that interview just like flashed in my head. When I was taking the MCOUNT, I was like, I can't do this, I cannot do this, and so I avoided my test, left the testing center, went downstairs, and just like I think I cried. I think I really did cry because I was this is this is something that I I can't follow through on this because I don't think I'll be happy. And so then UM spent like

the next like seven years pounding the pavement. And so yeah, I mean, have you ever missed Steve Carell and told him that story. I've not told him that story. But I met him when I was still a writer at SNL and he hosted I think my fourth I know, but I mean I kept like my professional distance at

the time. I mean, if if I were to meet him again, and if if it felt right, I would, I absolutely but tell him that story and say that it really did kind of give me this model for like if someone else has done this like I've I'm not alone in this experience of doubting what I should be doing next, um and and sort of and going for this more secure path or something like, there's this is someone who I admire, who I love, who who did this? But yeah, next time I see him, I'll

tell him you should. You should? So you do this podcast with a friend from n y U R. Matt Rodgers. Yes, look, man, oh I see you? Why why And look over there. How is that culture? Yes? Goodness? Tell me about the podcast and kind of how that honed your skills for comedy? Yeah, I mean, um, I should say that I was doing mostly improv in college and after after college. It was a sketch comedy. I dabbled in stand up a little bit. I'm not I'm I consider myself a dilettant only when

it comes to stand up. But the podcast that we started with them with Matt was just this very like one. It just seemed like this very low sticks thing where we would meet once a week and it was just an excuse for us to hang out and just sort of chop it up and talk about what was happening in pop culture. And then it sort of turned into this thing where, like there was, it had its own sort of vocabulary and vernacular. People know what and I

don't think so, honey? Is so basically and I don't think so, honey, is we take sixty seconds to rail against something in culture that we do not like, we think should be addressed fiercely and loudly. I don't think so, honey. Magicians, don't you ever pull ship from behind my ear without

asking me for permission? And I'm not. You know, slowly, our our listenership started to build and now it's just this really, it's this really I think healthy UM outlet for me to just be myself, because I think it's I mean, so often everyone in the industry sort of spins out about where they're positioned, what they're doing, if they're doing enough, and I mean for me to sort of just share this like one moment a week with Matt, who is on his own just like kind of doing

his own amazing things, and he's just such a brilliant writer and such a talented actor that I that I think, oh gosh, I'm so lucky that I have this UM, this other sort of way to sort of like develop a sense ability and a voice and just know like what I am like about just in terms of like how I expressed myself, because he's someone who has like puppy dog energy and I'm someone who was like who's a little bit more coolly reserved and catlike, and and

I never I never would have like knowing that about myself had I not had this relational e gauge to UM to just sort of discover that. Yeah, and meanwhile, you're you become a writer on SNL and what two thousand? Um, so what was that? What was that experience? Tell me about getting the call and you're hired? I mean, how

did you get that job? I guess. I mean the SI has done this a lot in the past, where they will hire writers out of the auditions, and I had submitted tape in seen and thought, they're never going to hire me. They're they're never going to hire this a feminine Asian guy. Um Like. I was like, there's no like, there's no lane for that there and it's not it's not like a role that they need to fill at all. So I was like, I'm just gonna

have fun with this. So I did, like I threw a bunch of things at the wall, and I was just like, as long as I think it's funny, I did. Like my impressions were, you know, Mochico Cacutani and like it's just the book reviewed at the New York Times and like who has never been photographed and more than like, I was just like, I don't And it was just her like reviewing books and saying threatening that she was going to punch Juno Diaz in the face or something

like just crazy stuff. I was like, this is never going to get me in. And then somehow I cleared the hurdles to do the showcase live in front of an audience that uc B, and then did the screen test in front of Lauren, and then got to this final meeting with Lauren and then I remember it being so late and that I was the last person he saw, I think, and he was just like, where are you from? And I was like, I'm actually I grew up in Canada.

I speak a little French and he was and then I remember he turned to the producer that was in the room and was just like fully just kind of sidelined to me, and it was just like, you know, the French have great books, don't they. And I was just like, okay, I did not get this job. So I left thinking I didn't get it. But then they called me back into audition again that March of eighteen, and I was like, okay, I have another shot at this. Let's go. Did that they said we're not doing a

mid season higher come back in August. I came back in August auditioned another time with a new set, and then I was like, either they take me or they don't. And then and then at that time they were like, we're not sure what to do with Bowen, but he um, but here's here's this offer to hire him as a writer. So I wrote for one season and I think had I not had that season two write, I wouldn't have I would have I mean, Laurene even said this to

me on the call. When he called me a year later in September to tell me that he was moving me to the cast. He was like, he said that it was his plan because if he was like he was, he was like, I knew you were going to be He was like, I know you're going to be scrutinized and people are going to keep an eye on you in a way that's they're going to evaluate you differently because of who you are. And so I would have

done you with di service. If I had thrown you out there like without a paddle, like if you didn't know how this place worked on a creative level as a writer, then then um, then you would have had a harder time. And I think that and I think he's right, Like, I that was really nice of him, Bowen, I mean like he was he had your back. He did.

I think he did. I really think he did, and and I think he was right because by my second by by my second week on the show as a cast member, you know, I got something on that I that I had written with some of the writers. But I knew as soon as the shows, as soon as the piece got picked to go to the show, I knew who to talk to for the costume, I knew who to talk to you for the props, and I just knew on a production level what to do, what my resources were. And I wouldn't I would have had

no idea. Um if I had just been plucked out of you know, the morass and thrown in and every person, every cast member would benefit from writing on that for a year, I think so. I think so. And yeah, And there are plenty of examples of people who did that, you know, Sadakis, Leslie Jones, Um, Tina right, Tina, Yeah. I just I just a lot of people who have successfully modeled um, you know, a tenure there have gone,

have done that, done that thing. I would be remiss not to talk to you about what's going on with so many Asian Americans and hate crimes and how horrifying this has been and how late as a culture we were to recognize this. I think in many many ways, Asian hate and and these antequated attitudes towards Asian Americans. It's it's been a revelation and it shouldn't have been.

But but before I get to sort of the larger issue, as someone who was the first Chinese American cast member, as someone who was openly gay on the cast, what did you know? How did that form your humor or your feelings about being a part of the show. Yeah, Um, I feel like I mean, I kind of I tell people that I came in at the right place at the right time. Um. And I believe that the Terry Sweeney in the eighties was the first I think he was.

I think he was the first gay cast member on SNL first season and he I think was like one of the only gay one of the first gay people on primetime television, or not prime time it's s it's SNL, so it's technically not but but but he um was what was one of the like the few, if not only gave gave people on TV. And then um there's John mill Heiser and I want to say who was

on the show as well. Um, But in my case, I came in and at that point there had been this legacy of queer writers and UM and performers too, with with with Terry and with John and with them uh Tnitravance, and with Kate already being so established there. I mean, I came in at a time when it was very it was not an uphill battle for me to be like, I need to prove something about, uh, what you can do with this shows as a queer person.

And so I came in already having a relationship with some of the gay writers at the show, like James Anderson and Julio torres Um, and I just thought, wow, I mean, I feel some pressure. Obviously I would be sort of dishonest if I was saying that I didn't. But I thought, I have things I've I've sort of the wind at my back in terms of like doing this in a way that I think will satisfy me creatively and hopefully make other people understand where I'm coming from.

Um with the whole thing of writing there for a season, I thought, you know, at least, I mean, I mean, it goes back to what Lauren was saying, like he would have done me a disservice by like throwing out there just with me not knowing how anything worked. And so you know, I I still am going through some weekly things where I think about how I should present

myself as an Asian person on this TV show. But in terms of being put out there as an Asian person on the show and having the Asian person's viewpoint, I struggled with that a lot. When we um uh about a month ago after the Atlanta shootings, UM, we would come back from a hiatus, and it was on people's minds um both outside of the show and at the show internally, where people were like, I mean, it has to be addressed in some way, right, so what

do we do? And then UM, I just heard through different people at the show that like the hope was that I would write something for a weekend update as myself to talk about what was happening. And I was for just just for a little bit, just thinking I don't think I want to do that, and it feels like something I'm sort of being saddled with and I don't know if I'm in the place creatively to like make light of it. And struggled with all these things.

But then there was another. There's another right at the show. We just hired this season Celestium, and they said to me, you know, if it's not going to be us, then who, like, you know, if if we don't, if it's not you and me writing this together, then like who's going to talk about this on the show? And don't we feel like wouldn't it be even weird if the show didn't bring it up at all? And I said, yeah, I

guess you're right, and so we wrote this piece. Across the country, rallies are being held to condemn the rise of anti Asian hate crimes. Here to share resources on how you can help is Asian cast member bow and Yan all right? Is that? Um? Is that my official title? Asian cast member? That's how you told me to introduce you. Yeah, I set your ass up. You know that blood with

some jo be the top. It then kind of takes this left turn into this place of kind of despair and hopelessness that I think is honest, is authentically like what a lot of Asian people are feeling in this country, where they're like there's no dialogue to have with someone if if their instinct is to like punch a grandmother on the street, you know, so it takes a turn

into there and then we we sprinkling some jokes. But then at the end um it gets stright into and that's sort of like a nice structure that Lauren I think likes, and that that's been on the show in the past. When it comes to like, you know, a grim story like this in Mandarin, there's a cheer that goes yo, which basically means fuel up. I don't know what's helpful to say to everyone, but that's what I say to myself. Then afterwards, I did feel like there

was this like vulnerability hangover. It was the first time I was on the show, like as myself talking um, and I felt very vulnerable. But I felt like it was something that I was imperfect, but like it was something that I think, I'm I'm proud of just having it be realized. From like the beginning of the week when I was like, I don't know how I'm going

to do this. I don't know how to address this in a way that feels like it fits into the show, and then by the end of it feeling like okay, you know what, like we did something, and we did something that hopefully resonates or activates or motivates people in some way, because the whole the whole piece was about how we sort of have to, as you know, culture, move past like the cursory acknowledgement of the problem and actually, you know, actively and do something about it, um in

whatever we we can. And I think I think people understood that. As an Asian American man, I'm curious as as you saw this unfold and I had a I had suspicions that this was going to happen when some of my friends who are in the medical community said that, you know, there were slurs hurled at them at the beginning of the pandemic. You know, I remember interviewing an Asian American doctor and you know, um, it obviously just got worse and worse and worse, and and witnessing this,

were you at all surprised? Where you appalled? How would you describe your reaction to to the kinds of incidents that we were seeing happened with greater frequency or at least getting more and more attention. M H. I feel like I was sort of awakened in a way that a lot of not just Asian people were um and I don't. Yeah, I mean, I don't even know that

it's that we're all late to this realization. I mean I think I think it's I think it's coming in on time, because I mean all of us have been socialized under this idea that like, I mean, gosh, I mean my friend Joel Kim Booster, who's another Asian comedian, said, um, you know, I get mixed up with another Asian person only once a month. You pre COVID would be like

even more. But like, just the way that Asian people are sort of like faceless in Western culture is like it just kind of it's it's it's a symptom of the same disease where it's like, you know, we're all

sort of dehumanized in a very quick immediate way. And so like all my life, I've grown up like having slurs sort of casually tossed off at me about someone else, um, when I was with an air shot, like all these crazy things, and I and and and and what's kind of terrible is that I was used to it, and that none of this was surprising to me until very recently, when it felt like there was a collective rejection of that from a lot of people, um, in the Asian

American community where we all thought, wait a second here, you know, because it's something you would become inured to in a way. Yes, absolutely, and and isn't that like and like it kind of fills me with a little bit of shame to admit that, but I think that's true of a lot of Asians in this country, and and for and for the people who like had that, who have realized it thoroughly on who are who are ahead of the curve. I think wow, I mean like

truly like good for you. And I don't mean that sarcastically. I mean like I wish I had been as developed as that earlier on, because now I'm finally at a place where I'm like, I can say no to this joke that's being written for me, Um, I can say no to a joke that's written for someone else, but that still sort of takes his swipe. I mean, you know, I've had to do that in multiple environments, um, just

with it among friends, professionally, you know whatever. Like now it just feels like if I put a foot down when it comes to that kind of thing, then that it's more easily understood. Does that make sense totally make sense. Yeah, Do you think it will change or you feeling that this heightened sensitivity and understanding and awareness of this kind

of prejudice and discrimination will will help alleviate it. I hope so, and I hope I mostly just hope that, um, the discourse sort of turns away from like the actual hate incidents. UM. And I think I think there's some collective shifts right now, at least, like among among people I talked to, we were like, Okay, so we understand where the hashtag comes from of stop Asian hate, but um, but it should be more about protecting the well being

of Asian people, UM in the country. It's you know, because if we're centering the aggression that's being directed towards us, then I don't know if there's ever going to be a counter gesture that's going to be strong enough to like push back against that in a way that eliminates. It shouldn't be about eliminating. I mean, ideally it should be about a eminating that kind of uh volatility towards

the Asian community. But I think the way to actively prioritize everyone's well being and for everyone to be in a better position is just to make sure that we're all taken care of, just on like on a material level, emotional level, you know, all of that. So that's like, that's like the thing that I hope for and that I first seen maybe happening, is that we all kind of we we we we take it out of the

terms of like a hate crime. It's more about it's not about like the prosecutorial way of like making sure people are brought to justice for whatever they do, but it's just about making sure that like people down, up and down every class in the Asian community are just sort of solid. I know we have to wrap it up. I could talk to you all day, but just a couple of things I wanted wanted to ask you about.

Where did you come up with the crazy icebergskin? Next week marks the end of a story of the sinking of the Titanic. Here to explain his side of the story, is the Iceberg sank the Titanic. Hi, Colin Hi, it's for having me. This is always a really weird time this year for me. Thank you for being here and just tell us what was going through your head that faithful night. Thank you for that question. Um, you know

what Colin, that was a really long time ago. Um, I've done a lot of reflecting to try and move past it. It's one very small part of me, but there's so much going on beneath the surface that you can't see, right, Yeah, like an iceberg? Is that your favorite that you've done so far? It was probably the most fun on a performance level, just being in the room and just having it. Um play, but it was

and Dresden's idea. She's one of the head writers at s n L now and she texted me back in February she said, for the April tenth show, maybe you play the iceberg that sank the Titanic. And I was just like, what, what are you talking about? And she was like, I don't know, never mind, it's and we'll

we'll we'll get to it in April. Like she had this idea months in advance because she was like, it should be somewhat timely because of the anniversary of the sinking, which is in the middle, which is in the middle of April. And I go, okay, maybe, and so we let we let it rest for a couple of months, and then the week of that show, I texted her on Monday, I was like, what do you think of that iceberg idea? Again? She was like I completely forgot

about it. But then we started riffing on it. We're like, okay, he's there to promote his album. He's there, he doesn't want to talk about it. He's really grown. Since then, um, all these things, and I mean the entire time, you have to understand Katie. The entire week, both of us looked at each other multiple multiple times, and we're just like this is never going to be on TV, Like how will we ever make this work? And we would just cackle, like laugh hysterically to each other like what

are we doing? This is nuts down to like Saturday at like six thirty pm, us just looking at each other being like what are we doing? This is going to get cut immediately, Like it's just such a big swing, and like why would Lauren ever think that this would be that those should make any sense? Then we did it address rehearsal and it and it did better than we thought. We were like okay, and then an it comes to me afterwards and she's like, Lauren liked it.

I was like, all right, I guess maybe we do it. And then finally the picks come out for the for the air show, it's in. I go, wow, I guess we're doing this. And then somehow the air audience was even more on board than than the dress audience was. And I was like, this was just I mean, every star aligned for this and I just can't I still, I still can't believe it happened. Why are you said

you would be my Oprah? Call it that someone did and that and you also had that Harry Styles, Uh that was never going to see the light of day. And till Harry Styles, like, I don't know you completed him or something bowen, he exhumed it from from the grave. And I mean that was another moment where I turned to him and Cecily Strong, who was with me in that sketch. I co wrote it with Julio Torres. This this this wonderful comedian friend of mine who was a

writer there for for several years. But I turned to both of the Cecily and Harry, and I was just like, this can't be on TV. It's I mean, but that's when it's the most fun. Is that, like things that you never think could could come to pass on the show end up happening. And then they have this weird life of their own afterwards. That that's the most delightful

part of the whole job. It must make you question your judgment though, Like if you think, oh, this is gonna kill and it bombs and this is the strangest

thing ever and it becomes a viral sensation. I mean, yes, the inverse happens all the time, things that you're like so sure about that just no one else is on board, no one else is even remotely into it, and then it's and then it's the other way around so many other times too, And that's that's sort of the best part of the job, is just not ever getting it down to an actual science, because I because even writers at SNL don't know what they're doing obviously all the time.

You have done so many things. I mean, is there something that are you just going to continue to enjoy growing as a performer on SNL. I know you've done you do stand up still even though I know you consider yourself a dilettante, but you still kind of play in that space a little bit. You did the aquafine of stuff. Um, you know, if you sort of had to chart out the next five or ten years. Is there are there things you want to do or they're kind of moments that you want to seizes or opportunities

that you see yourself doing. Would you like to do more films, etcetera, etcetera. Yeah, I feel very entertainment tonight right now. But I'm just hearing I feel like to get this side of Katie kerk Is is actually I can't believe I'm on receiving ends of this, but I, um, I don't know. I would love to. I mean, there's this there's this phrase that I repeat all the time from Tony Hale Um from VIEP and wrestling. It's fantastic. Um.

I think someone asked him. I forget where, but someone asked him what his best sort of career advice was, and he said, um, especially when it came to comedians or comedic actors. He said, instead of investing in a career, instead of thinking about in terms of investing in a career, think in terms of investing in a community, because it's the people you come up with that sort of make

it such a good experience. And I feel I think I'm very lucky to I feel like I'm a part of a community among people who you know, I would do like Brooklyn bar Basement shows with you know, five years ago, and now they're there in movies and they're writing for shows and they're doing all these incredible things, and so I just want some I mean, I honestly want to think of some way to like build out this like way of developing some community around comedians and

especially queer ones, especially Asian ones, whether together separately, UM that just like is able to come up to come up together. Because I was talking to be Dwong about this and he was telling me, like, you know you he's talking to me. He was like, you are probably the subject of a lot of these discussions where it's like why did it takes along for an Asian person to be on SNL or a fully East Asian person

to be on SNL. And his theory is that, like there is just no inevitable process for developing people who come out of certain programs, or there's no educational process, there's no um process that like takes you from one end to the other that is as obvious as it

is um for for certain other people. And so I'm like, oh, yeah, like maybe there's a way to like build that um and so I mean, I obviously want to do the fun, the fun stuff like being things, but I think that's like the that's like this sort of community, community investment that I think I want to like try and help with. It's just to make sure it happens more often. Well, Bowen, thank you again, and again I'm congratulations for all your success. I'm super happy for you and and not only enjoy

watching you, but really really enjoyed talking to you. So thank you for all your time. Thank you, this is a wonderful conversation. Thanks for facilitating it. Love me some Boigner. His podcast Last Culture Aristas is in the I Heart Family, so go check it out and I might even be a guest this fall. I'm very excited. And if you missed any of those SNL clips we referenced, will link to them in the description of this podcast. Next Question with Katie Kirk is a production of My Heart Media

and Katie Kurk Media. Up The executive producers Army, Katie Curic, and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements, Adrianna Fasio, and Emily Pinto. The show is edited and mixed by Derrick Clements. For more information about today's episode, or to sign up for my morning newsletter, wake Up Call, go to Katie currek dot com. You can also find me at Katie curic, on Instagram and

on my social media channels. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,