Book tour bonus with Kara Swisher

The first interview I'm sharing with you is a timely one and just a really good conversation from my stop in Washington, d C, where I interviewed the one and only Kara Swisher, tech journalist, podcaster, beloved nuisance to pretty much all of Silicon Valley. Well, I don't know how beloved she is, but you get the drift anyway. She's so smart and such a riot, So I hope you enjoy our conversation. My next guest is the master of new media and one badass podcast, among many other things,

So please welcome my friend Kara Swisher. Hey, woman, Hey, how are you good? Good? Have a scene and I just tell you what a production this is. I know, what do you think? I've been pressed? It's been really really sentimental. It's badass. It's a lot of things going on than you I like you to have a little hokey little but it works, okay, good good, Well, I don't know. I think sometimes it's only for like like heavy metal concerts this place, but I like it. You

two look like you look like a crazy crowd. You could just get any time anyway, Saturday night. So let's talk about I mean, you're sort of everywhere. You're having a moment, Kara. I think you've been having a moment for a while. Now tell everybody the kind of work you're doing, because you're everywhere, right, Yes, everywhere. I am everywhere.

I am ubiquitous ahead and then later inevitable. Um no, I just I have two podcasts, one for New York Magazine called piv It, where I argue with a straight white man every every twice a week, uh named Scott Galloway. Um it's it's a sitcom. In the end we're gonna fall in love and unlikely romance. Um and then and then I have Sway for The New York Times, which I'm wearing this a friend of mine gave it to me from that that company that makes at least it

doesn't think whatever I know. They say, go girl, which I would never wear. But this one is cool. And you're also you're writing your column column for the New York Times and you're doing a new podcast after Yes, Yeah, because I'm obsessed with Succession. Why why are you obsessed? I've been doing stuff with a trio for years around Silicon Valley and before that, Game of Thrones, and I

love Succession. I think it's a great show, um I and I just I am a fan, and so I just I sit around and talk about it with different people about what's happened on the show. And you know, not that it has anything to do with the Murdochs, but you know, I work for them for many years, and it's enjoyable to see a fictional version of Uncle Satan. So so let's let's talk about the media landscape. Because you and I are around the same age. I think

you're six years younger, giver take something like that. Yeah, And as I was saying, when I got into the business, when you got into the business, it was extremely different.

And I'm just curious, as you look at this extremely fragmented media landscape, how do you think it's changed sort of the nature of our country and the quality of discourse that we're able to have Well, you know you you were talking about the idea Katie gave us a script which none of us are going to follow, but nonetheless I love that she does that, Like Nicole and I are such quiet and retiring people, and it's like, here's the script. Well, I just wanted to give you

a little like the whole Katie correct production. I called Katie just so you know, my nickname for his Katie fucking Kirk, because because I want her to be like the baddest that I know. She is underneath, like she's yes you are, Yes you are. I'm getting there, You're getting there. I like that so COMMUNI one of the reasons I got to know kid because she was at Yahoo and I thought it was a real risk that

you took. Not many people from the mainstream media moved into the areas that you did, and I thought that was striking actually at the time, even though it wasn't completely successful, that it was directionally correct. We were doing exactly what a lot of people are doing on sub steck or creating their own media brands or this and that, and nobody was doing that then. So I thought that was, you know, striking when you did it, and I was. I watched it very carefully. I think it was probably

too early and in the wrong place. Yes, so the idea of of a journalist as an entrepreneur, uh and some people call it the report entrepreneur, which I hate that word, but there it is, um and I think it was. I think there is no such thing as mass media anymore. There's media that's in silos. There is you know, there are networks and things like that. But when you joined CBS, it was already declining asset, right like.

And so it was interesting that that we still focus that way as if there's one place people get news there it actually is. It's Facebook, um, but it is in the most of the world it is, actually And so it sort of has fractured and come together. And then a lot of these voices using these tech tools, which is what I started covering right here in Washington, d C. For The Washington Post. I covered a O. L Um the beginnings. Even though you sort of become

a joke now, it wasn't. It was a really important moment in in media history, really, and so it's fractured come together, and then all these voices that maybe aren't quite so accurate have come into the fray and so so, and it's ruined the media business itself, the advertising business, um, how people pay attention, and so it's a really it's it's a very difficult time for media right now. How

do you see it all shaking out? Do you think it's I mean that I get overwhelmed with content, and you know, there are not enough hours in the day to absorb and reflect on all. And I think some fantastic journalism is being absolutely it's just very hard to separate the week from the chaff. Well, it's a little like TV, right that's sort of disintermediated rather substantively. There's all these things. It's a lot of competition. That's why you're getting some really getting a lot of stuff, and

then you're getting a lot of really good stuff. Same thing with media. It's disintermediated. And what part of me likes it. Like when you were starting out there were three networks ruined mostly by white straight men, right, who all lived on the Upper East Side of Manhattan, and they got to the side things. Same thing with the New York Times, same thing here with the Washington Post.

And so I like the idea of it being pushed outward, so that lots of people can contribute, but what's happened is a lot of these tools have taken over that allow malevolent players to join the fray and start to mess up the whole information ecosystem. And so people live on a low, low nutrition information diet. So many and they already did, but now they're they're getting They already

didn't have good information. Now they're getting really bad sort of sugary, uh, bad for your self information which they are now protecting as if it's the right information, is the correct information, and then they defend it. I feel like we have to obviously, and you actually made a joke about this, we have to talk about Facebook because it's been in the crosshairs. I know you're dying to

cover other things, but you just simply can't. I didn't interview at a Vanity Fair summit seventeen with Cheryl Samberg. Wait it was two thousand nineteen, I'm sorry, with Cheryl Samberg. Um, and she got quite testy and it became really a little bit tense. But you had interviewed I think Mark Zuckerberg a year prior to that and made a lot of news with that interview. Um, what are your impressions

of Mark Zuckerberg today. Well, it's been a journey, you know, one of the time working actually in a memoir Silicon Valley right now. That and I was recalling when I first met him, And the first thing you ever said to me is I heard you think I'm an asshole? UM? And I said, I you maybe, UM, I don't know. Uh, He's not an asshole. Let me just say after all

these years, UM, But what's happened? You know? That was a great interview, by the way, Katie, you should watch it if it's available, because Cheryl is very smooth, and it was brought in to be the adult in the room. They always do that as but the man is thirty four years old. He doesn't need this sort of the juvenilization of these tech people is comical in some ways. He's got children, etcetera, etcetera. But she was brought in

to be the adult. Um. And so you pushed her very hard on the issues that I had started talking about.

Because the relationship I developed Maria Ressa, who has just won the Nobel Peace Prize, she started bringing me data, tons of data about what was Facebook was doing to her and other activists and journalists in the Philippines used the government using it for propaganda, and so when you were pushing back on her, this was the first time you started to see real widespread questioning of what how they were running the show over there, which was not

well um and even though they've gotten fabulously wealthy, even though they were very powerful and stuff like that. So it was a critical interview that you did with her because she was expecting sort of a hey Katie girl, you know that kind of thing going on, and you did not deliver that. And I was thrilled. I think I texted you like thank you. She was not. I didn't really talked like I didn't talked to her since that interview that I haven't talked to her for many years,

even though I knew her really well. But same thing with Mark. You know that interview I did with her the year before was with him the year before. It's when he said to me we were talking about Alex Jones, and I'm like, you're kicking him off the platform. He's breaking every one of your rules. Don't you who's running the show here if you're not going to do this, And he started to do this sort of first Amendment stuff, and someone who I went finished college. He did not.

I understood what the first Amendment was. He does not, and and so but I let him go on. I let him go on, and he nothing. By the way, if you don't want to go to college, that's great, it's whatever choice you make. But don't like make it as if it's a good thing good to be uneducated, right like, or not to know what you're talking about. So he um uh. So he started to about Alice Jones, and I was like, you're going to kick him off. He's like violating every one of your so called rules

here on this platform. And uh. He goes, well, let's shift to the Holocaust. And I'm like, oh no, no, don't do that. But okay, sure, let's see where this goes. And he was sort of trying to set himself up, saying that he, even as a Jewish person, tolerates Holocaust deniers. And he said something that was that got a lot of news what you were talking about, which you said, you know, Holocaust deniers don't mean to lie. And I just sat there like, huh like, and of course it

was I learned a lot of interviewing from you. I just like the Palin interview was so brilliant, um, where I just was like, oh, they don't huh, that's kind of the definition of a Holocaust denier. But okay, UM, tell me more, and which is you you use too much effect? And so he started talking about this and sort of ran himself right into the wall essentially, and since then, um, he's continued to do so, I think.

Oh and as you can see from these documents from Francis Howgan, we'll talk about those documents right after this. Let's talk about those documents more than what ten thousand

pages more to come, yeah, and more to come. What do you think we're some of the most damning things that those documents show, because there are a lot of damning things, but what we're sort of the top three things I'll tell you with the media focus on was Team Girls, although I didn't I know, I didn't think that was the most important things, even though it is important. I have teenagers, um, and I understand their teenage boys, but uh, and I have a daughter now who's two, UM,

and I think about it a lot. But I think one of the things that was most important was the thing that Maria was talking about is how Facebook impacts the rest of the world, and how sloppy they are in terms of monitoring their platform from elevolent players. And it's one of these things I didn't interview with Mark Bennie off set of Salesforce. He compared them to cigarette companies.

I don't think they're quite down that evil highway. There's not a memo that goes, hey, we know it's a mess, but let's let's throw them anyway, let's kill them anyway.

So I think what they're doing is they're showing a company that has no grasp of what they're they've created, except that they have enormous impact everywhere around the world, whether it's you know, election misinformation or anti vaccine anti vaccination information if you want to call it that um or whatever whatever it happens to be, wherever it is

around the world. This is a platform that's proliferated like I don't know, mold, I don't know what to call it, but it's everywhere, It's everywhere, all around you, and they're not monitoring it correctly, nor do they have an idea of what to do. And so what do they do They rebrand? Why not? Yes, I will save about the rebranding mess book. Meta is now the name of Facebook, I call it, but go ahead, seta has it's a

better tasting. So so this is I'm cute. This is a really a fascinating thing because this was just announced by Mark Zuckerberg and um, First of all, what do you think was the goal of rebranding? But also what is the meta verse that Facebook is trying to create and why are they trying to do it? The metaverse is an old idea. This is you know, you've seen it in all these movies. You've seen the Matrix anything, You've seen Lots and lot Tron. There's all kinds of ideas.

Which is ready player one? It started with snow Crash Neil Stevenson. Um, it's the idea that you live in the physical and digital worlds combined singularity. Right now, that's becoming a machine. Okaytie, try to keep up. I'm sorry. That's how you put a chip in your brain, like Ellen is working on Elon Might and then your what's his name? What the ray guy who's hurt? Yeah, I'm seeing you. Like, so that's the machines in us coming together. This is living and a living you live like he

showed off a really creepy video. I don't know if you saw it, because Marcus specialized and creepy videos. Um. And he you know, he's playing cards with his friends and fencing. He's fencing, he's doing It's this idea that you'll escape into this world and then move back and forth between your physical It's an old idea. It's it's an old and interesting idea. Now the matter will be created by lots of companies. Facebook is making a massive land grab to take over. They bought Oculus. They've got

a lot of very smart purchase back then. But one of the problems he has is that he's losing young people. Uh, you know, teens. If you talk to any teen, they will not go near Facebook essentially, and so and even Instagram is losing young it is, yes, it is. And so one of the problems that he has he's got to stay relevant. He also can't buy things because the government finally is perking up its ears and going, maybe we should possibly do our job and regulate this industry.

So so this is really a business play, isn't it. Yes, No, it's it's it's a lot of things he's got, He's got to move in another direction. He's like, he's got a pivot. Well, yeah, so what he's got a dumpster fire and he's like paying attention to that. I'm going to go over here to the metaverse where we're going to change my costume ten times. It's fine, we're gonna do it. You're gonna wear glasses and someday but you'll all be dead, so it won't matter so for you,

but the kids, the kids will love it. But do you think I'm sure the kids will love it? By the way, really, now, well, what about this document dump? Do you think this is? You know, I know earlier this month you said it's not going to change anything. Um, and now I feel like you've moved into the direction of, hey, maybe this is the last straw. Maybe the government, as you here said, we'll do it straw. Here's why I just interted Ken Buck, who's from Colorado. He worked with

David Cicillini. This is a conservative from Colorado who who is very conservative working with a gay Democrat from Rhode Island to bring legislation together. That doesn't happen often. I mean, they can't decide on lunch. Congress can't do that, and so they are working together in a bipartisan way that is mostly helpful, and they're they're putting up bill. Senator Clobuchar's one them. Um, there's a whole bunch of them.

But it's actually quite bipartisan. And that's what's great about it. Um, we'll see if it gets anywhere, because they don't look, they can't seem to do anything anymore. And the level of partisanship is so high, and in this case it isn't people do recognize powers the problem power of all tech, not just Facebook but others companies, and that part of it is to have more competition, right, I mean, I think, isn't that what any Klovi petition will serve a lot?

Same thing with ken Buck And I think you know, every now and then Ted Cruz lobs in an idiotic comment, but otherwise it's just his job. I think, Um, you know, tweet some it's a big tweeter. It's such a bad he's such a bad tweeter. More from Kara Swisher and my book tour right after this, How do you think the media can earn trust again from people who are consuming it? Or do think that just doesn't apply because it's so well fractured. Did they trust the media before?

That's the that's a bigger question. I think levels of trust among the press historically have been very low. I just think they had that Watergate moment. I mean, look at the pushback you've gotten for the Ruth Bader Ginsburg. We talked about it on Sway, UM. You know that people. It played into a narrative that you're the fixes in among the Libs to protect this and that I think

in that case you can talk about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean that was something that I wanted to write about because I personally admired Justice Ginsburg a great deal and everything that she had done for equality. Um. And and when I asked her about Colin Kaepernick, she had some very harsh words. She said, people who kneel during the national anthem are dumb and arrogant and dumb and disrespectful and and she used were stupid and arrogant. And

it was sort of surprising to me. I went back and her office called and said she misunderstood the question, she wasn't really following the story that carefully, and then she made some other off handed comment about it being contempt for a government, and that these people are much better off here than the countries they came from. I

ended up using two minutes of her answer. She had to issue a statement saying she misspoke, her words were unnecessarily harsh and dismissive, but that one piece I thought I wasn't sure what she was saying. I bristled, and I think I raised that in the book because I think it was a mistake that I should have included it, and that I let some of my personal um, you know, my my admiration for her getting the way of my judgment.

And I thought that it would be actually helpful to be transparent because journalists make these editorial decisions every day. I've talked to many journalists through the years who have made sort of decisions that they're not at all the coverage of John Kennedy, that they're not totally comfortable with UM and and that's why I chose to include it. And I still think that transparency is really helpful when

it comes to trusting the media. And I was on Stephen Colbert the other night and I said, you know, if if some of these organizations admitted that journalists are human beings and they sometimes don't make the right decisions, like if NBC said it was a mistake for us to sit on these Access Hollywood tapes so that the Washington Post had to break it, or that CNN said we shouldn't have allowed Chris Cuomo to yuck it up with his governor brother with a giant Q tip at

the height of the pandemic and then not say a word about sexual harassment allegations and you know, or that CBS shouldn't have handed nd A s out like Halloween candy that pushed out talented women and kept sexual harassm is employed. So I think that admitting sometimes when you make bad decisions is being transparent would actually increase trust. But maybe I'm wrong. No, I don't think so at all. I mean, I have a very different career than years

in that way. And then I'm always like, that's an idiot, you know, and they're like you you have to be you can't be biased. I'm like, oh, I'm biased, that's right. Like I'm a person, Like what do you think I'm not affected by the world. I have children, i have a life, I've got you know, I'm gay, Like I have opinions and I think One of the things we did at All Things D and later at RICO was we have like multi page disclosures and then we we

trust the audience. We don't hide from them. We don't hide from them, because I think that was the thing, is keeping yourself apart from audiences. You can't do that anymore as a journalist, can you. You just have to be really close and you have to be okay with Like you were just talking about it. You didn't like disagreement. You want everyone to like you. I luckily started out life wanting everyone to dislike me, and therefore everything is uphill from here. Um uh. And so it frees you

if you think like that. And it doesn't mean not doing reporting, by the way, No it doesn't. But on the other hand, I do think that media has become so bifurcated and it's either you know, CNN or Fox, CNN, MSNBC or Fox. And I think there is a craving for people to hear news and information in an unbiased way that's not commentary, that allows them to take it in and make their own opinions. Except except you have these these new information environments with like the big lie

thing look at all right. I agree with dretzeling themselves not to say what the truth is that the election was. Yes, well they just or else they just sit there like because if they're you're asking if they're wearing pantyhose. I don't know what they're like. Oh, no, I cannot say this thing because Donald Trump will somehow tweet again. No, I's not got to tweet. He's off Twitter and by the way, for the rest of his life. And I totally agree with you because I think it it is

really challenging to be objective. You know, first of all, that's that's that's a very um, I think, fraught word. But it's very hard to be objective when it's not left right but it's right wrong. And when somebody is perpetrating a lie and you feel like you have to call that out. That makes people automatically think you're on one side when you're actually just trying to tell the truth. Yes, but that's what that group of malevolent players is trying

to do. Their gaming the system, and they do it either through you know, Facebook memes or or all over the internet. They do it all over the place, and and they're playing that game in meanwhile, you're like going no, no, no, no. And so I think one of the things that has to happen is there's a whole bunch of people. I think, Um, there's a lot of noisy people on either side. Um. And they're not equal, by the way, they're not find

people on both sides, especially in that particular incident. Um. And and there's a lot of people in the center going, I don't know, I care about my kids. The COVID thing, why do these scientists like even just around COVID, it is confusing. What shot should I take? Do I need a shot? Do I need a mess? And so we used to be able to have these discussions easily when it's when there's a noise going on around you, a

persistent digital noise almost all the time. You live in a state of constant fear and worry and too much information. So this idea of removing the gatekeepers is an excellent idea, except sometimes gatekeepers do matter. Trusted gatekeepers. The question is now people pick their trusted based on on on my like you know, I talked to you about my mom with Fox News, Like, oh my god, I had my brother was a doctor and I I'm not a doctor. Um, convinced her this is the flu. It's the flu. Sean

Hannay says, it's the flu. I'm like, Sean Hannity is a horse's ass. But let us wait. So your your brother, My brother is a doctor, but he he hell's your mom the truth? Yes, and you believe Sean Hannity over your brother. He's like, oh, I can go out. It's just the flu. It's like that. At the beginning. I wrote a column about this in The Times, and Sean Hannity and Comma horses ass um threatened, assume a good luck, Like, come on, it's right up there, fine, you know, And

so he's rutten to a bunch of people at the Times. Um. But about these because Fox News continues now they're doing the big live stuff now they're doing this. But it's not really a Fox News problem as much as it's these The ability to have information anywhere at any time without any vetting creates a really noisy information environment. Now. Luckily,

I think younger people do sort of understand. I don't think they're quite as shifted as people who lived in the old information environment and moving to the new one. They're not as discombobulated. I don't think so. I think they pick and choose. Really. I mean, my kids are like that, um, And I think that they have a sense that not everything is true, nor was it before, because again it was picked by certain the stories that where you've talked about this in the book a lot.

You should talk about it because the way you covered certain things back when it was Matthew Sheppard or or riots or things like that, it was a whole different viewpoint, right, what was actually happening, right, And I do talk a lot about that about, you know, our our perceptions of

what it meant to be gay in America. The way we covered the Rodney King beating, I talked to the white victim and we didn't really talk too much about how it was reaction to to the riots were reaction to the Rodney King, the the acquittal of those police, white police officers. So I think we're really appreciating retrospectively, um, how we had blind spots in many of these areas.

Everyone now is a newsperson with their camera, with their phone, with their video, and sometimes it works out well and sometimes it can be decept especially as you can maipulate it. And by the way, when you get into this metaverse and deep faith. The company that brought you the social media mess we have is now want you think about what could happen in a metaverse situation a very as

it surround us. And one of the things I can finally says, this pandemic has shown how much we rely on these digital tools and to get our information, to get our deliveries, to get our to get to work, to do education which did not work out really well, and our reliance on these companies which are completely may I just say Washington completely unregulated. There's zero laws regulating the Internet and the one that it does exist is

in an act and it helps it. It removes liability from these something can't be sued and they have no regulation. It sounds like a great prescription for disaster um And so one of the things that we've shown in the pandemic is they've never been richer. They've the ten top people in the world are all tech people. The tent top companies except for Saudi Aramco, are tech companies. They've doubled and tripled their wealth during the pandemic. Lights should

be going off here in Washington. How do you see the two minutes we have how do you see things shaking out? What do you if you looked in your crystal ball and looked five years from now, how do you see the media landscape changing? Will there be a network newscast, for example, no network news evening news, and

so what will our media ecosystem look like. I think you'll see a lot of brands, like you're doing with Katie Kirk Media, you're sort of you're directionally correct again right, hopefully not too early, you know, you're just perfect timing um. But I think one of the things is that it's just there will be new brands built around people and

trusted people, and you pick and choose among them. There will be obviously the big I think news organizations like the Washington Post and the New York Times, they're they're doing well right now, although everyone's seeing a Trump slump. He was correct, And there's also a lot of internal debate about how to cover the news at those organizations as well, right exactly, so you can see that, and

I think I think things will settle down. Like the beginning of the printing press, the beginning of TV, the beginning of radio, all saw a lot of hubbub and then it just calmed itself down as people understood. My worry is that the people that are running these things are particularly ill equipped to also deal with societal issues, political issues, governmentally, Like it's amazing that in the case, let's go back to Mark one person who cannot be fired.

People don't realize this. He has stock where he cannot be fired. He is unaccountable, runs the biggest comedian communications company in the world without and he's a very nice guy. But honestly, do we really want that to happen? And so that's what you have to start thinking about, is where can the new innovation common news? Where can the new idea of what we're getting stuff? And that was my problem at Yahoo because it was a tech company.

It wasn't a media company. And I told you that, yeah you did, and content and and and content wasn't sort of in in in the company's d n A. I don't care if it's Cats or Katie Curic, they don't care. No, they didn't care. So that ergo was the problem. Like Katie Kirk more than Cats, and they both have the word in it. So well, I'm so happy, thank you, very journalist. But everybody to her now you

are Thank you to Kara Swisher. Will link out to that interview I did with Cheryl Sandberg back in twenty nineteen and the description of this podcast. You can also find it in the Next Question feed. The episode is called is it Time to Unfriend Facebook? I guess we're a little ahead of our time. Next Question with Katie Kurik is a production of I Heart Media and Katie Kurk Media. The executive producer's Army Katie Kuric and Courtney Litz.

The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements and Adrianna Fasio. The show is edited and mixed by Derrick Clements. For more information about today's episode, or to sign up for my morning newsletter, wake Up Call, go to Katie Correct dot com. You can also find me at Katie Correct on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.