Bonus: The making of 'Nomadland' with director Chloé Zhao

Those historic directors are Emerald Finell, nominated for Promising Young Woman, starring Kerrie mulligan, and Chloe's Ou nominated for Nomad Land, which stars Frances McDorman as Fern, a woman living out of her van, traveling the country, working seasonal jobs and meeting a community of like minded itinerant Americans along the way. You are one of those lucky people who can travel anywhere. Yes, and they'll sometimes call you no maad my mom. So

that's your homeless. Who's that true? No, I'm not homeless, I'm just houseless. Not the same thing, right. Chloe, I should note, is the first woman to receive four nominations in a single year and the first non white woman to be nominated in the director category, and recently, I had the pleasure of speaking with Chloe, as well as three producers of Nomad Land, Peter Spears, Molly Asher, and Dan Jampi, about this extraordinarily beautiful and strangely prescient film. Peter,

let me start with you. You and Francis option Nomad Land, Surviving American the twenty one Century, Frances mcdormomand, who also stars in the film. It was written by someone named Jessica Brewder, And I'm curious what made you believe that this could be translated into film and would actually make a really compelling movie. Well, when it was sent to us, uh, we read it with an eye to something that Francis

might play herself in the movie. But Linda May, who is the main character of the book, uh, is also in our film. But the book itself follows sort of the journey of Linda from unemployment to eventually buying some

land and making an earthship on that land. And I think what both Francis and I responded to in that book felt like a bit of a flare going up while in a warning to us all that that there was, as it says in the book that the Titanic is going down and that we needed to get the lifeboats ready.

And I know that the book itself takes place in two thousand and eleven, in the in the wake of the two thousand and eight recession, but something really felt prescient about it in the reading of it in two thousands sent team and it felt like, really was something afoot in a way that I think we all came to realize in the ensuing year was even more widespread and deeper than than we had ever had the ability to look into a crystal ball and see and when

you think about Dan, what that was, you know, and what this this whole population represented, you know what struck you about the message that that their way of life and their situation was sending that that Peter talked about. But the moment that I became involved in the film, Chloe had a very specific vision for the movie and one of the primary um one of the primary adaptations that Chloe made was creating the character of Firm in

collaboration with Francis. And so at the moment that we entered the film, there was this notion of for and going on a journey through the American West following these various jobs, and so cinematically. For me, I was quite drawn to the idea of new, a new entry from Chloe into the American road movie and into the American Western. And I felt that Chloe's approach to this, for me, I was as much influenced by playing with classic genres

of American cinema and radically new ways. So fascinating. And I'm going to talk to Chloe about her vision in a moment. But Molly, I'm just curious when you got involved in this project, and I think I'm a pretty well read person, I didn't realize that there were all these nomads traveling across the country from place to place, from job to job, from location to location, um, you know, really making this very charipatetic life for themselves. And I'm curious, Molly,

if you were aware of this segment of the population. No, Oh, I wasn't at all, and you know, not until reading the book and then even more so how striking it was then meeting Swanky and then the may and Bob Wells and realizing that, like I think what people, the notion people might have of someone who lives in their van is very different. You know, this could be somebody who's sitting next to you at a restaurant, or behind you in line at the bank, or you know, it's

it's um. I found that fascinating and also really um warming. Yeah. You know, initially you think, oh, you'll feel sorry for these people, and then you receive the way that they're living and how connected they are to both the land and ultimately each other. And then I think it gives you a brand new perspective. I know, Peter, you and Francis or Francis rather was at the Toronto Film Festival and you saw the work of a remarkable, uh young

filmmaker who's drinking her tea right now. Francis came back and said, I think we found our director. What was it about Chloe in that work? And I promised Chloe, I'm going to get team the next your time. But what was it about Chloe's work? I believe it was

a film called Writer. I think the Writer, Yes, and Molly was the producer on that as well, and uh, you know, we had really never seen anything quite like it, and mine and Francis's experience we had come up in a more traditional filmmaking storytelling away and it just it blew our socks. Off. We we really were both mesmerized by the uh proficient UM way of storytelling, but also how immersive the experience was and how strong the filmmaker's

point of view was. And that's always what you're looking for when you're looking, uh to find a director for a project. And so we reached out to Chloe. We met. The three of us, Chloe, Francis, and I met on the afternoon of the Independent Spirit Awards in Los Angeles that year. All three of us had been working on separate films. UH. I was coming off Called Me by Your Name, and Francis doing three Billboards and and Chloe was just beginning UH with Molly the The The Ride.

You know, these sort of awards season right for for the writer. And we decided then and there that we

wanted to make this film. But it was Chloe who suggested to us that instead of a straightforward adaptation, perhaps the movie was more in the style of of the way she had made her earlier two movies and UH and we were very, very excited, And the next day she was off packed her car and was driving to the Rubber Tramp Rendezvous to meet Bob Wells and Linda and all the folks there and uh, we were off and running. So Chloe, finally, um, tell me when you first of all, when you get when you met with

Peter and Francis. I'm such a huge Francis M. Dormant fan. I love her work. I admire everything about her and had the the privilege of interviewing her on multiple occasions. And I'm just curious when you were sitting there talking with them, I mean, how cool was that? Chloe? You have interviewed her, you know, you know, you can't keep

your eyes off of her. She has that she has that ability to just draw you in, you know, because she is very, very curious about people and about the world around her, which makes her makes her not only great actress, but a really great producer in that sense. I think instinctually when she saw the writer, she thought, oh, maybe there's another way to to to do this, you know, So it was it was exciting. So when you thought about us not doing a straightforward adaptation, but doing something

altogether different and so visually I think original. Tell me when when you when you first conceived of that, how would you describe the way you wanted this film to unfold and the way you wanted to share the stories of the nomads in it, including firm of course, Well for me making these decisions are we're such um, we're

always such a god. Feeling very hard to pimp on why and how until later when the film is done, And why I realized when normal and went out into the world is that people really take away different things, drastically different messages from the film and different experiences. And that's how I felt when I was reading the book. Looking back at it, it wasn't just one thing, you

know there because Jessica did a great job of capturing. Yes, there was an event that led to everyone in the book to to make choices and or or to have to to do something different with their lives, but that brings out different humanity and different kind of human struggle in each of them, and that diversity was so interesting to me that I didn't want to I want us to be able to create a character that can allow me to bring as many aspects of that those stories

as possible. You see that this is my husband's old fishing box. I put this whole latch on it, and then when I opened it, the stopper holds it and creates more counter space, and then I keep my really nice stuff inside my dishes that my dad gave me. He collected theesel into may from yard sales, and when I graduated from high school, he gave me the whole set. Is it that great? Yeah, it's called Automn. I don't have that many pieces with me. But you know what

did you name your van Vanguard? Ah? That is very strong? She is. Mhm. It's such a quiet, contemplative movie, which I think the power is almost in the the quiet of the film. And uh and and I think Fern character remains somewhat an enigma throughout it. Um, kind of understanding her and her motivations, you kind of put the pieces together. But um, how much was Francis involved with

really kind of infusing Burn? Because Burn is a little bit of Francis, and Francis is a little bit of Fern, right, Chloe, Yeah, I think friend said she takes a little bit of a character that she played with her every time. So now so in a way, Firn is also a little bit of every character she's ever played, so because she really lives her art, you know, so, I think she always said I didn't become an actual stuff my pictures taken.

I think I'm actress to to live different lives. And Frannon was very much involved in creating firm the way that I really heavily on the non professional actors that work with in creating their characters. Uh yeah, so everything from the way she moved her her outfit to her hair, to the things that she bring into the vent, which if you only bring fifties things with you, they say a lot about who you are. And that was a big part of friends contribution as well. I'm curious about

working with performers and non actors. And and I know that there were some people from the book Swanky I know and Linda May were in the book Nomad Land, which I'm dying to read, which I haven't read but I'm going to read. But um, you found them because they were characters, as as we mentioned in Jessica Brewder's book. But there were also a lot of other characters as well.

And I'm curious, who have you really had to I know, all of you in a way embedded yourselves into these worlds, into these communities, almost as if you were making a documentary. And in some ways it was a weird. I think hybrid of both film and documentary UM and and how challenging was that to a when the trust of those people and a film and these real locations where you had a lot of authenticity about the life they were leading.

I think well as far as like how the how the other UM actors came to be, there was kind of we did it in sort of three different ways. One of them is that we had you know, traditional sort of open calls in various areas. And then we also had UM two people who were doing local casting, and they were actually also combining location scouting and local casting um and in that sense, so that's that's actually how we found Derek the Young Traveler in the film UM.

And then the other part was just specifically for the r TR was you know, get getting getting advice from Linda May, Swanky, Jessica possibly other nomads that might like to be in the film, reaching out and then and then sort of you know, becoming part becoming part of the community as much as we could, which is I think then how UM there was this this trust and comfortable feeling once we run set and working with everyone.

I actually think that is also a really good at talking about better than me this fine line between the documentary aspect and the fictional aspect, which the trick is always making you feel like it feels like a documentary, but it actually the work went into it is not like that at all. Damn sure. Yeah, and Chloe, I think it's one of your The most miraculous aspects of how you make movies is for me, the degree to which you give people an experience as if this is

really happening. That's that's the magic trick, is that the end result is the movie feels lived in. And I think when people talk about documentary, they're talking about a sense of, um, a notion of this is the world that we live in, this is a real world. And I think that that's absolutely a goal of the work is to give the end result. From a production standpoint,

I think that we actually there's an unbelief. Like any great magic trick, there's an unbelievable amount of things happening off stage, blow stage, and with the group around us kind of end up without illusion. Um. So the best example is the RTR festival that's in our movie is actually a staged RTR. And I think that what's interesting about this way of making movies is like any great

magic trick, the boundaries start to get blurred. So you stage in our tr means you you cast the performers, you bring them to a site that you control, but then the performers end up actually end up having their

own r TR. And then on top of that, Chloe and Josh's shooting style is actually very fiction cinema based, like the references that they would use, like Chloe, the one that's always stood out to me as One car Wise Happy Together, which is one of my favorite movies, are your your visual language references are not documentary cinema at all. It's actual narrative storytelling and then combined with your incredible sense of how the footage is going to

end up in the edit. So I think that the whole experience is about creating an infrastructure to end up with that magic trick of and and I would add to that that meanwhile, while all that's going on, Chloe has created this bond with the not with the performers

Francis and David, but and also the non performers. Where because the footprint of the movie and the crew is so small, because we've all been living together for so long, uh, that they trust implicitly and so with compassion and pat patients and and the ability to just want to listen and hear the stories from, you know, just the deepest parts of their beings they that they offer up. Uh. And with the camera there and all the other things,

it's it's it melts away. And I see performers who have performed for decades who who don't have the kind of comfort that that Chloe is able to create in the space for for non performers and performers alike. And that's the last part I think of the magic trick that Chloe does. I'm gonna be seventy five this year,

and i think I've lived a pretty good life. I've seen some really neat things kayaking all those places, and you know, like moose in the wild, a moose family on a river in Idaho, and um, big white pelicans landing just six ft over my kayak on a lake in Colorado. Or um come around it been was a cliff and find hundreds and hundreds of swallow nests on the on the wall of the cliff, and the swallows

flying all around and reflecting in the water. So it looks like I'm flying with the swallows, and they're under me and over me and all around me, and little babies are hatching out and eggshells are falling out of the nest, landing on the water and floating on the water these little white chills. It was like, it's just so awesome. I felt like I've done enough. My life was complete If I died right right then that moment perfectly fine. And when they're speaking, a lot of it

is is it not scripted? It's just them telling their stories. Chloe about who they are and what their wishes are, and Linda May talking about her situation or Swanky and you know, all the different people. Kind of I'm just curious how much of it was action that you just kind of set up and let the let the people go with it and share, or how much it was actually,

you know, orchestrated dialogue. I got the feeling and maybe this is part of the magic too, that it was just people talking about their lives and somehow it all just worked together beautifully. Can you explain how that worked? That that somehow is the uh, the magic trick part, Because if you just show up and have people talk about their lives, what you're gonna end up is our. I mean, hundreds of hours of footage has had nothing to do with your film. So the process is actually

really straightforward. People ask me how do you work with non professional actors? I said, you start with the writing, right. You have to know for a movie what's the main emotional art, and then you need to pick moments that are going to supplement this main emotional arc. You can't go off, you know, Linda main swan Ki talking about something nothing to do with the Ferns plot, but it has to have something to do with Firn's plot on the very deep level. So then you pick your non

professional actors. First of all, they have to be okay on a camera. You put a camera on them right away, let them speak and see if there I can't do it right and uh and so then when and then you spend days with them and sometimes just a few hours because us all the time we have. And then you you listen really really carefully of what they're really trying to say about themselves, and then you do a

lot of that too. You know, I'm sure you know what how that feels that you have to really go beyond because people have a lot of wars they put up. And then that's where you have to push a little further and go, but tell me about that day. And then and then when you hear these things and you go out, that is really going to that's going to represent what who they really want to say about who

they are. And then that's also gonna work for first Journey because the audience has to care in that moment because they're invested in furns, so they have to care what Swan kid is going to say for that moment to feel emotional. So I put those words, those specific lines onto the script and then my DP is gonna read it, and and you know, my producer gonna they are gonna read it and go and my my sound you know wolf are our sound recorders make He's gonna

read it. We're all gonna come come to the place and go, how do we cinematically best put this moment on screen? And now that day, Swanky already know this part of her own life. That's when instead of hiring an actor who talked to Swanky and and do the scenes, She's going to do it herself. So on that day for her, you know, the producers has created environment where I feel that it's just in her space that she's not being asked to come to a stage. You know,

with all these lights on her. Our DP has done a great job, our sound makes us done a great job, And in that moment, she's feels like she's just living her own story. But everything else around her is carefully planned so that you could make into the film later. I'm meaning something. I learned that from my first film, where I thought spontaneous means not planning, and I mean, like, you know, go with the flow, let's just show up

and do it. And then when I also work on the edit my first film and realized it's great stuff, but it had nothing to do with the film, and no one's gonna care. So we'll be right back with more Nomad Land in just a moment. I know you've all traveled all over. It was shot over six months in starting in September two thous eighteen in South Dakota for the scenes in the bad Lands and at Wall Drug then onto Nebraska, Nevada, UH, the Northern California Coast, Yuma, Arizona,

and then San Bernardino County. Was it tough moving around so much? I know you worked with a pretty small crew. Um, and I also know that you kind of lived the way the Nomads lived in the process of making this film, which must have brought you even closer to to the story and to the narrative. But was that challenge Peter just slept in all of the country right specifically, was

it was it hard for you? Uh? You know, I think I jokingly say I'm the only eagle scout in the world who ever managed to get a badge without camping.

You know, it was that never my thing, but I immediately Chloe had this idea with in conjunction with all the producers that because she and Molly uh and and Josh the DP had had made movies together before the rest of us were new to this process and and she needed to quickly kind of get us up and running in the style of of how we were gonna make this movie so that that hitting together in September.

Beside needing some summer shots seasonally, she also had had the thought that this would be a good boot camp for for us all to learn her the language of how she does this and to learn about you know, magic, our hustle and all the other sorts of components, So that when we got to the winter part of the movie, which was going to be a lot more extreme and shorter days, colder days, and much more emotional material we were going to be dealing with, we had we had

a little more of that muscle memory that the rest of the rest of that group had already brought to the proceedings, So that that helped a lot. That was a big help in the process. Molly, want to add to that, what what it was like for you hearings of all this travel and kind of indoctrinating you into these different areas and with with a new set of people or in some cases some of the same people.

Mm hmm um. Well, another thing I think that came out of the first the sort of UM boot camp that that Peter mentioned was that also like logistically too, we're kind of testing, you know, do we have the right kinds of vehicles, Like do we have we need more crew, you know, for the next time that we're going out, and so so some things were adjusted, you know specifically, remember our are one of the equipment fans UM,

and then you know, going place to place. As as to just the planning of it UM, it's sort of just like planning a an out of town shoot, but you just are traveling, you know, multiple times, rather than just you know, going to that one place and staying there. But it was incredible how different each place was, and you know, not only the environment, but but the people.

And I think that that also, you know that I think you feel that when when you're watching the film, that it's not only the landscape that's changing, but also the people that are of this landscape. I was gonna say, I think the landscape itself and the land really is such a character in this film in every and every

possible way. And Chloe AM curious how you were able to translate a certain emotional connection connectivity to the land the people on it and and if you, in fact saw I saw it as almost a character in and of itself. I think it definitely is, you know, and it is something that I was now. I grew up in big cities, I live in big cities in most of my life, and I definitely felt the lack of um connection with nature is something that is problematic in

my life. And making these last three films to experience the natural environments through my character's perspective and see how important the natural world is for their healing process, for for them to have space rediscover themselves. Um, these are incredible experiences I get to have. UM and so uh to understand why Swanky will give up the comfort of a home in the suburb and go live in the desert of Arizona, you really have to capture the soundset the way she sees it. He will never be as

beautiful as she sees it. Well, we try, and and speaking of Swanky and and Linda, me and everyone else, was it hard to you know, as a journalist, I have to earn someone's trust, especially if it's a sensitive story about a life experience or you know, about their very way of life or something traumatic that happens to them.

And I I'm curious how you know. It's one thing to to share your story with someone writing a book, right, It's a whole another thing to be on film, to have your face shown, to talk to have to kind of recount your life experience. Was it hard to win the trust of some of these people because I know you didn't have all the time in the world. And did anyone say I don't want to I don't want to be a part of this. Uh, they felt maybe they were going to be exploited it or more made

fun of or be kind of an oddity. And I'm just curious how how you were able to do that. I think definitely, you know, there there were people that weren't sure, you know, and even had questions with me talking about it on the morning of the shoe, especially the people who had to share some really personal things and sometimes their friends are surprised while you did it, you know, even right there, Um, I have to just I know that when I go to bed at night, I can I can go to sleep like I I

have to because you can't. Um, you have to set a moral standard for yourself, and you you go by that day after day. And I think, if you're truthful and you're authentic, and you go in there trying to relate to another human being as a human being now with an agenda, I think they would feel it deep inside. They would feel And the people who are too guarded, they're not going to come to to our lives anyways.

Because we are a fictional film making team, we invite people to come in would you like to be in the movie? To act? So if they really resistant, if they wouldn't even come anywhere near us, And so we're halfway there, and with Jessica, who have gotten to know everyone for so long, and we always go to her and said, do you think this is someone that we even feel comfortable sharing their stories? And you can never

completely prepare someone how they're going to react. In the very end, you just have to be truthful and hope for the best. So far, we have had great experiences making three films with nonprofessional actors like Swanky would let me know a couple of days ago, I was now prepared for the size of my rain call on an Imax screen. She's seen it so many times in Imax now. She was like, do you know big those rain calls are? Chloe, Uh, that's as much of a come ony I think I got.

I think another factor from is that you set a tone for the rest of the crew, because from a production standpoint, I'm always struck by the question of what it's like to work with nonprofessional performers because for us, they are our stars, they are actors. And I think that Chloe's relationship and Josh's relationship with them is on a spiritual level of storyteller to human and human to storyteller.

But it sets a tone for the rest of the crew to kind of create a comfortable environment for our performers. And I know that for the Nomadland Company, they loved being with Bob and Swanky and Linda May. I think Chloe that comes from the tone of like, these are these people are part of our filmmaking family, and it's just the whole The whole entity exists to kind of create a culture of comfort where people can be themselves

in vulnerable and acts. And I remember Bob said after the screening, he's I just feel like we were all filming Curse where we're a team telling these story stories together because they knew we needed them. Swankie needs to show us where the place that we can film in the desert that has this cactus bulb is going to help us get in touch with two of their friends who are going to be able to do the solar thing,

you know. So it's really a group of filmmakers. We treat our non professional actors very much as uh, someone who can help us with your resources as well. So it was very much a team work. And and talk

about maybe Peter the role France slashed Fern. You know how she kind of obviously she's the epicenter of this film, but how her story, um is the connected tissue to talk about the major thing, And I'm going to ask you about the major things of the movie next, but to kind of to put everything together and to be almost the the wheel is everyone else are the spokes if you will? Does that make sense? Or what is the thing in the center of the wheel? Would that be?

What is that called the center again? The eagles scout who has no idea? What that? You know? The thing in the middle of the wheel, I'll call the mechanic? Um uh, you know. I look, I think this is also something Chloe can speak to as well. And I'll try to spey. I wouldn't, you know, to speak for Francis, but I feel when I've heard her speak about this,

you know, um in so many ways. From the very beginning of the creation of the movie, Francis first said to Chloe, you know, I've always had this dream that someday I'm going to hit the road and with a bottle of Jack Daniels and a pack of Lucky Strikes and and leave my husband and and and call myself you know, change my name to Fern and and head off into the world. So she she got to do that.

And in a sort of way, and and and Chloe and she really together in this collaboration to create the space where she is living these days, not as Francis the actor, but as as Frances Fern. Francis the person who is literally driving all the mind anywhere that van went. For five months, Francis was driving that van, and Francis was, you know, living the life of of these same people that we were all sort of amongst and with. So she,

in so many ways was the glue. Not because she came in as the performer and was doing something other or something that felt artificial. She had completely immersed herself into this world in a way that in many scenes many people didn't even know she was Frances When we would arrive and left, they didn't know it was even Francis McDorman, or they didn't know who Francis McDorman was.

UH And and and that was sort of the beauty I think of of Francis's commitment to UH and her ability the other half of great acting is great listening and her ability to truly listen and here and want to know and want to connect to the people that she was she was working shoulder to shoulder with We'll be right back. It seemed like Francis's character. It seemed as if Fern and so many of the other nomads, this is the choice of how they want to live, you know. I think, as I said earlier, it's not

what they're forced to do. And in fact, she couldn't deal with being in a comfortable home ah. And I don't want to give too much away for people haven't seen the film, but that was so oppressive to her uh. And I found that so interesting that this is a pro wild life choice. It's not a desperate, uh way to live. And I think that's one of the big at least takeaways that I had, that this is a preferred lifestyle and a choice, not as if people don't

have any other options, but this is a choice. And I think that became very clear when when Fern didn't want to live in a comfortable house with a dog and children running around. And do you think that most I mean, I'm just so curious about the motivation of many of these people to choose this particular lifestyle. What what do you think it is Chloe Well First of all, I don't think we can. I don't think you can spoil No Meland. Okay, okay, because I tried something that

they people always worry. I don't want to give away. I don't think the tension is enough for people jokes aside. And I think it's really important for us to and I hope No Malan does show that us. It's just not in your face, um that even though it is a choice for someone like Swanky and firm Bob Wells, it's important that they have a choice, you know. I think I think it's very important not to um forget that many of them were forced into at the beginning

without a choice. Right. Eventually they learned something about themselves and some of them decided, like Linda may no, I'm gonna stay stand still. I want to build the Earthship. Some of them, like Bob said, I'm going to keep going. But the initial lack of choice, it's now something we we think it's okay, you know, the way that out their care in this country at the moment, or it's been like that for a long time, and the feeling of uh, if you don't contribute to the capitalist economy,

then you're disposable. That's a shame for any society because elders have so much wisdom to leave behind. And we learned so much. I personally learned so much being around people of firm evolved in the maze generation to learn about life, to learn about grief and loss and death and perseverance and all these things. But we don't think about the outer that way. So that's something that we

want to make it very clear. All of us feel like hopefully that message come across and then each individual UM, after we've been put so many different identity on us, a mother, a coworker's part of a community, a daughter, and all that. If all that goes away one day, who am I? And many of them were put in that situation after without and eight and I think, I think whether it's a sunset or like the way Firm said,

I don't need any of these things. At the end when she was at the storage place, they felt weighted down by working so hard, giving up their entire lives for things that doesn't really matter to them compared to a soundset. You know, UM and then wanted to be closer to nature because when you get into a certain age,

I remember friends said this to me. I moved to a small town next to the ocean because I want to feel close to the third that I'm going about to go into and this feeding of contemplating of mortality, and I want to be close to nature. And there's a lot of reasons why each of them choose to keep going. For Bob, there's also a bigger reason. You know,

he wants to help other people. He wants to be part of a something, of a movement, But that's very individual for each person why they end up choosing to not go back to a house when they can. Finally, if if you all had to describe what No mad Land is really about at its at its essence, what would you say? And I'll just go around the horn and start with Dan, What would you say, No mad Land is about Dan? I think I think that what

we're going was talking about. One thing that was on my mind is about why the movie may resonate with so many people who aren't in the same set of circumstances as the characters of Nomad Lands, and a lot of privileged people see the film, and we come from privileged backgrounds as filmmakers as well, that the Fern's journey is an extreme journey, physical journey that I think is a spiritual one that all people go on, where we ask ourselves, what does it mean to have a home?

Who is that home with? Where do we find happiness? Where do we find survival? So I think that, especially in the context of the pandemic, Fern is going through a physical journey that is a spiritual journey that a lot of us are going on, regardless of where we are in life or what age we're on. There the movie ask you to lean into some big cosmic questions about being alive in America right now. So I think I think Burn's Journey allows us to go on our

own spiritual journeys. And I think all great movies give you the ability to go to worlds that you don't know, to then look within your own soul and say, Okay, well who am I? What does it mean for me to be alive? I don't know if that makes any sense. Now, it totally makes sense. I think. I think it was beautiful actually, and and and Chloe's assessment I think of the characters was as well. Um, but I think you're right.

It brings up a lot of cosmic issues through these through this storytelling just of a few characters, and and a lot of questions about society, about capitalism, about income inequality, about disposal, the you know, people as as disposable, about workers, the workforce, Amazon. I mean, there are a lot of it's a lot of stuff, you know in one and one small film. Really and and Molly, for you, as Chloes, it struck me, Chloe said, everybody kind of takes something

different away from it. I also I thought a lot about isolation and loneliness because I can't really I'm not good at being alone. I can't really stand the my own company, and uh and and and I would be really I would go crazy if I lit lead the kind of isolated life that Fern was living, you know, without companionship on these long drives, I mean, and and so me. For me, it was a lot about living with loneliness or live you know, tolerating, acceptance, accepting loneliness

and um solitary you know, I just love that. I love that. I really hope someone take away that. Thank you, um and and Molly. So when you think about it, what do you think the film is about? And I think I know Chloe, I'm gonna have you and in this conversation because I know you've talked about the American Dream.

But first, Molly you yeah, I mean, actually I was going to bring up the American Dream because I think when I first just first reading the book, I really you know, the people in this film, in the book are are my parents age and I remember after the financial crisis, they had this whole plan of what their retirement was going to be and that all fell apart and um, and so I was really interested in exploring this um, this whole idea of like when you have this idea of what your life is going to be,

this American dream, and it doesn't work out, and then finding your own way to, you know, sort of rebuild an American dream for your for yourself and how much we really need and how much we really don't need, right, I mean a lot of it is about sort of crass consumerism too. But anyway, Peter, what about you. I think I'm really strong, and I've seen it several times now and I come away from different things, but I

think I'm really of late. I felt very moved by the concept of these people in our lives who are the rememberers, those people, the people who are sort of traveling with the memory of someone gone, of something gone, of a lost community of lost lover of lost friendships, of of lost meaning and and and and certainly in the in the movie, you know the line what remember what, what's remembered lives and and and it just the idea of of grief and how we process that, and and

that you know, the death doesn't necessarily into relationship, and that it struggles still in the minds of you know, of of whomever for some kind of resolution that it may or may not find feels you know, uh, feels very much of of import right now in the time we're living in. I also think, and you know, who

cares what I think? But I was just gonna say, Chloe, that while it was about loneliness and isolation, it was also very much about community and the fact that humans, human to human contact can really happen anywhere if you have like an open heart and you're willing to share.

And especially I think it was especially poignant poignant for me watching the scene around the fire where people were throwing things in the fire and saying a few words, and that kind of communal ritual, ritualistic exercise and and how community can be anywhere. Does that make sense? Yeah? Yeah, And look the loneliness aspect for me, these stars there, you know it stars there. Because I think wanting to tell stories is in a way of saying, is there

anybody out there? You know? I just you want to reach out because there's a deep loneliness I think we all have and you's got to resolve in different is for me is to connect with other people through storytelling and UM. In order to tell stories, I have to believe, I have to have their faith that we're inherently good as human beings, that we inherently have compassion for one

another even though we disagree on everything. So when I go out there in the middle of nowhere of a community is not my own, I search for that compassion. I always find it, and I think Nomal and UM document that experience for me. Of these people around the fire have nothing in common, come from all walk of life. I kind of listen to each other and try to see the world from the other person's perspective and have compassion for each other and as a result, have compassion

for themselves. A big thank you to all My Guests Today director Chloe's Out, Producers Peter Spears, Molly Asher, and Dan Champige. You can watch The Incredible Nomad Land on Hulu. Next Question with Katie Kurik is a production of I Heart Media and Katie Curic Media. The executive producers Army, Katie Curic, and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements, Adrianna Fasio, and Emily Pinto. The

show is edited and mixed by Derrick Clements. For more information about today's episode, or to sign up for my morning newsletter, wake Up Call, go to Katie currect dot com. You can also find me at Katie Curic on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,