Bonus: An Interview with Maryland Governor Larry Hogan

are changing for women in Hollywood. In the meantime, I had a really interesting conversation with Maryland Governor Larry Hogan, who I think is a rock star, and I wanted to share it with you as soon as possible. You know, at a time where there's so much talk about uniting our bitterly divided country, I think Governor Hogan could be used as a model for unity as an incredibly popular Republican leader of a very blue state near my home

state of Virginia. Of course, we're talking about Maryland. I spoke with him about this unprecedented moment in our nation's history, what it means to be a common sense conservative, and why he thinks we're just at the beginning of a long and difficult battle for the soul of the Republican Party. Oh and I also asked him if he'd ever run for president, Governor Hogan, what in the world is going

on with the Republican Party. Well, that's a really good question, Katie. Um, some of us are really trying hard to figure that out. I it's I never imagined it could get quite as bad as it's gotten at this point. I think we're really in the midst of, in the just the beginning of what is going to be a long, you know and difficult battle for the soul of the Republican Party. I mean, we're we're heading off in the direction where, um, you know, we're not going to be able to successfully

win national elections anymore. Where it's gonna be difficult for the Republicans to ever get the House or the Senate back, or to win the White House back unless we can return to some sanity. Um. And there are a number of us who are trying to return to a more traditional, you know, common sense conservative party, more reaganesque, bigger tent party that can appeal to with a positive message that we can you know, try to work with Democrats on.

But there's an awful lot of others who are wanting to take us down this path that has no chance of success. In fact, I was going to ask you, governor, are you in the minority? Is the Republican Party now squarely the party of Donald Trump? Well, I think it has been, and I think perhaps it still is, but I think his influence is is slowly beginning to diminish. I think after the loss of the election, after the the crazy conspiracy theories about the election being stolen, and

then particularly after the insurrection at the Capitol. While he still has an awful lot of uh, you know, supporters in the Republican Party, it's dropped considerably and there are at least thirty or forty of the Republican Party who do not want to see Donald Trump involved in the party party in a substantial way. So it's it's still a majority, but a shrinking majority, and it's a majority of a much smaller party. Uh you know, it's we've been shrinking the base, and uh, we've got to growth.

The basis that let's talk about his scathing statement about Mitch McConnell. What was your reaction to that. Well, on the one hand, it wasn't surprising, Katie, because we've seen, you know, these kind of attacks on fellow Republicans and on other people and kind of this angry rhetoric for years. But um, you know, Mr McConnell, who didn't vote for impeachment, I think I think, you know, really spoke how he felt.

And obviously he's concerned about winning the Senate back. And um, you know, I'm sure there were politics involved, but I think he meant the words that he said, and um, and I admired him for being willing to speak up, but for the President to attack him in the personal way that he did, it's, you know, it's kind of what we've come to expect. It seems that as if governor, people speak out against Donald Trump at their own risk. Um, you know, there's a lot of fear about Republicans list

Chainey among them getting out primary. And I'm curious if you have gotten any backlash because you've been pretty outspoken about the fact that you would have voted to convict if you had been in the U. S. Senate. Well, not being in the Senate and not being in the House and not not not taking a vote may put

me in a different position. It also didn't come as any surprise for me to speak out because I've been speaking the exact same way for the entire time since Donald Trump announced this presidential campaign, uh, you know, four years ago. So I think some people who haven't spoken out for four years are are experiencing, you know, and finally did are are getting the the brunt of the criticism.

You know. I also happened to be in a state where I ran forty five points ahead of Donald Trump, and so, uh you know, he lost by thirty and I won by fifteen. Uh so he doesn't have quite the same influence over me. And and I'm also just not as concerned about, you know, what people think about it. I'm just you know, I just I've always been pretty

blunt and say exactly what I think. Your father was a real profile encourage back in nineteen seventy four when he was the only Republican to vote for all three articles of impeachment against Richard Nixon. But there are very few profiles encouraged today. Only seven Republican Senators voted to convict Donald Trump in that impeachment hearing. Why do you think that's the case. Well, thank you for mentioning my dad. You know, I'm awful proud of him. I learned a

lot about integrity and public service from him. He was the first Republican in Congress to come out for Nixon's impeachment. He was on the House Judiciary Committee. He was the only Republican to vote for all three articles of impeachment. So talk about he was one the only one. Uh. And here we had seven senators and ten members of the House, and you know, I uh, you know, I admire them for voting their conscience and having the guts

to stand up. I can tell you without any question that there were far more senators and far more House members and plenty of my colleagues that are governors who felt exactly the same way, but who haven't spoken up and and and didn't cast those votes because they were afraid of the retribution and the attacks and being primaried. And the ones who did did so at their own risk.

I mean, you know, my dad back in the seventies, he suffered, He knew he was potentially ending his political career, but he did what he thought was right for the country. And I think some of those folks, I really admire the fact that they had the guts. There just weren't enough of them. Well, what about the fact that there weren't enough of them? Are these people just addicted to

power over country, party over country, anything over country. I'm not sure I would characterize it quite like that, Katie. I mean, it's hard for me to put myself in and judge how people were making these decisions, um, and how they arrived at their conclusion. Some people really, UM didn't know. I think sincerely didn't believe thought he was wrong, thought he insight in the violence, but that they that you couldn't shouldn't impeach a former president, and that the

election was over. Some people, I think thought that we needed to put Donald Trump behind us and not continue the the talk. And some people I think maybe thought he was guilty and didn't have the guts to vote that way. UM. So it's a little bit of all that. But I don't I wouldn't say they, you know, I don't want to characterize what they did because I I can't put myself inside of their own minds and their hearts and figure out what they how they decided their vote.

When we come back, we're going to have more of my conversation with the Governor of Maryland, Larry Hogan. It comes to this, Fike, Governor Hogan, over the heart and soul of the Republican Party. How do you reconcile the fact that of Republicans say they have a positive view of President Trump and over half would vote for him again in it's a little surprising, um, but you know, he uh he, he really has had quite a following

over the past four years. And uh you know, I think that's going to continue to diminish as time goes on, and and you know, I think we're just getting by the election. It's surprising to me that so many people believe this, this talk about the election being stolen, which

doesn't have any basis in fact. I mean, you know, some of my Republican governor colleagues who were very strong supporters of the president, you know, they certified the elections, and you know, they wouldn't overturn the election, and they're telling us there just wasn't any truth to these rumors. But it's amazing how many people believe them. And it's all about you know, social media and and disinformation, and we've got to figure out how many how so many

people were misled. Well, at this juncture, it does seem that more centrist moderate Republicans such as yourself are in the minority. Still So how do you change that's statistic? How do you bring more people to your side if you will what you believe the GOP should be. Well, it's not gonna be easy, Katie, and I don't have a I don't have a magic wand to make everything magically go back to normal again. But in my opinion, this was kind of a hostile takeover of the Republican

Party four years ago. Donald Trump was lifelong Democrat and independent. It just became a Republican mostly supported Democrats its whole life. While while I was chairing youth for Yan Trump was working for the Democrats in eight and eighty four. So how how this came about is we can go back and figure it out. But I don't know whether we are going to be successful or not quite Frankly, it's something we're going to decide over the next two years

or four years. But as a lifelong you know, Republican who believes in my party and wants to return to a more traditional Republican party, I'm I think it's worth fighting for. Some people have given up. I understand that, um, and some people say it's a it's kind of hopeless, But UM, I'm not gonna give up, and I happen

to believe we we do have a chance. And uh, I think if if we want to win purple states, if we want to win competitive districts, in suburban congressional districts, if we want to elect Republican governors in places like Maryland, one of the blue states in the country, and in New England with Charlie Baker in Massachusetts, and Phil Scott and Vermont and Krista new New in New Hampshire, Democratic states.

You know, we we we can't keep alienating large swaths of the electorate, and we can't just keep trying to focus on a smaller and smaller base. You know, in Maryland, I've I've you know, won overwhelmingly with with suburban women, with Democrats and Independence and Conservatives and Republicans, And you've got to find a message that can appeal to more people, because successful politics is about, you know, uh, addition and multiplication,

not subtraction and division. You can't win elections if you can't convince people that your ideas are the right ones. There's some talk Governor about potentially starting a new party, a third party. I've heard it called the p Trade Party, and other things Um, what do you think about that idea? Is that sort of a pie in the sky notion? Well, you know, you hear it from both ads. There's definitely

a divide in the Republican Party, you know. Uh, but you've heard they were talking about a mega party that President Trump was said he wouldn't rule out, you know, starting up party of his own. Uh. You know that more traditional Republicans are, I think, trying to get their own party back. Um, And so I think we're going to figure that out. It's very difficult to have a

third party or hav any. I think there's an overwhelming majority of Americans that once when survey showed about seventy three percent of the people in America are somewhere in the middle. They really aren't happy with the Democratic Party moving too far to the left. They're not really happy with where the Republican Party is. They're either moderate or right of center, left of center. They're not only extremes of either party. And I think it is where most

voters are. But it's very difficult of a process to figure out how you nominate people that can appeal to those people. Lindsey Graham has said that he is quite worried about the midterm elections in two. Given the rift that we've seen exposed between Mitch McConnell and Donald Trump there now at each other's throat, I'm more worried about two than I've ever been. I don't want to eat our own President Trump is the most consequential Republican in

the party. We don't have a snowball's chance in hell of taking back the majority without Donald Trump. How concerned are you about that? Well, he ought to be concerned, and I'm sure you know the leader McConnell is concerned as well. Look if if if they start primary senators or congressmen who don't agree with the president or don't support the president and elect, you know, kind of more Q and On supporters and really people that are out

there on the fringe. They may be able to defeat them in a primary, but they're going to lose all those elections in November. And you know, I'm of the opinion we have to nominate candidates that can appeal to more people and win in November. It doesn't matter who you knock off in a primary. Apparently the Trump e ist Republicans are at the state and local level much more so than in the nation's capital. So how do

you handle that, Trent and what can you do about that? Well, so, you know, it's uh the way these it's the same thing in that in both parties. Really the most activists folks are usually on the central committees at the run the local parties. They're not necessarily the actual leaders of the party in those states, and they're usually not elected officials, but you know they're certainly the Trump team took over

most of the state party apparatus. Um, you're seeing some of those uh, party officials attacking uh, you know, the United States senators and congressmen who had the audacity to stand up and tell the truth and for people like Sindy, people like Cindy McCain. Yeah, going after Cindy McCain and Governor Doug Doocey and uh, and you know, it's it's

just crazy. So, you know, the governors that were strong Trump supporters, like Doug Doocey in Arizona or Governor Kemp in Georgia or being attacked by the Republicans, and you know, it just doesn't make any sense. But you know it's I wouldn't put a lot of mistake in that it doesn't really matter. You know, like for example, in two thousand fourteen, you know, I'm the second Republican in fifty years to get elected, only kind of want two hund

forty three years to get reelected my state party. Um, you know, Apparatus did a convention where I came in fourth place, but I'm the highest vote getter ever state. So I'm not sure they have as much influence as you think. And uh, they can criticize or censure all they want, but leaders are going to step up and lead.

It sounds as if you think that Republicans could potentially cannibalize themselves by putting for candidates that are extreme right or very much you know, Trump followers, but cannot then have success on election day. I think that's the biggest, the big the biggest concern, because look, um, political parties exist because you want to win election, so you get a chance to govern, so you can you know, push

your ideas and your agenda. If we nominate people that are unelectable in November, we don't get to run anything. We don't get the we don't're not gonna have a Republican president. We're not gonna have any Republicans controlling legislative bodies, We're gonna lose our big majority among governors. We're gonna lose legislative bodies. You know. We we have to elect in the primary, nominate the people that are most electable,

or we're gonna lose a whole lot more seats. The more pro Trump of GEOP becomes, the more it could help the Democratic Party. Well, that's exactly my point, Katie. And that's the point I'm trying to make. I mean, I know, you know it's like, well, you're not a true believer, so we have to get rid of you. Well I am. I do happen to be the most popular governor in America who had the only one to

win in Maryland two or four three years. So maybe you shouldn't get rid of me because you're not going to get you know, one of these guys you and on is not going to get elected governor might stay. I'll be continuing my chat with Maryland Governor Larry Hogan. Right after this. There was some speculation that you might challenge Donald Trump in that didn't happen. But are you considering a possible run in I never really seriously considered.

In there were a lot of people kind of encouraging that, but I never you know, formed an exploratory or tick took it too seriously. I just didn't think it was possible. In four, I get that question a lot, and I'm not trying to duck your question, but we really are.

I have a really important day job in the middle of a state of emergency, trying to save lives, trying to vaccinate millions of people, working on our economic recovery, and I'm really going to try to stay focused on doing that important day job for at least the next two years of my term. And there's plenty of time between now and four to worry about. But I am gonna do what I can to, you know, save my party that I've been a part of my whole life, and I'm gonna speak out and continue to try to

be a voice. And the abstract is it's something that appeals to you, governor, Well, it's certainly something not something I would rule out, especially if I felt the call to duty. If I if I as if you know, I was somebody who could run a credible challenge and could potentially get to take the party back on track. I mean, I'm more concerned about a future for the Republican Party than than my future in the party. But um, you know, obviously, you know it's something we're gonna certainly

take a look at. Governor, How can I I know you were very concerned on January six, tell me your reaction to the insurrection on Capitol Hill and the actions you took as a result. But I was shocked and outraged. I was in my office on a on a video conference with the ambassador from Japan to the United States,

and my my chief of staff, came in. It was much like George Bush when he was reading to the kids in nine eleven, when when when somebody whispered in his ear, my chief of staff says, the capital is under attack. Uh. And you know I quickly excused myself from the the call the conference with the ambassador. I immediately called security team and my chiefest staff have talked with the mayor of d C who was desperately asking

for our assistance. I called my security team together and within five minutes time, some in person, some on the conference video conference. It was our the the Adjutant General of our Maryland National Guard, the Superintendent of the Maryland State Police are homeland security by all all of our security team together about ten people, and immediately said what can we do? How fast can we move? Um? We called up our entire Maryland State Police UM instant response

team that are all riot trained. Immediately sent them heading towards Washington. UH and we uh. We had this discussion about the National Guard. The mayor of d C was requesting help from our National Guard. It's a unique situation because you don't have a National Guard in DC. They don't have the authority every state governor. If Pennsylvania says, hey, we need help, we just send them over in Virginia. But in d C, we have to get the sign

off from the Secretary of Defense. So we kept running it up the flagpole, you know, and we kept being denied by the Department of Defense. Meanwhile, while these meetings are going on, I get a call from Stenny Hoyer, the Majority Leader, who says to me, you know, you know someone a panicked voice says he's in He's been whisked away to a bunker or some undisclosed location with

Speaker Pelosi and with Chuck Schumer. And he's saying, Governor this you know the Capitol police have been overwhelmed and they've taken over the capitol. Can you send us help, you know, just you know, begging for help. And I said, you know, Stenny, we have several hundred members of the you know, Maryland State Police on the way. They should be there shortly, um And he said, we need to Can you send the National Guard? And I said, I've called up my national Guard. We called up a thousand

members of the National Guard. But we don't have authorization. And Stenny was yelling across the room too. He's saying, hey, you know, Hogan says they don't have authorization, and he says, you know. The Hoyer says no. The Chuck says, you do. And I'm saying, Stanny, I'm telling you I don't. We've been told three times by the Department Offense we don't

have authorization. Does back and forth, back and forth. About two hours later, I'm still in the meeting with my team, talking about where are the guards stationed outside of DC, how many police are in there. I get a call on my cell phone from Ryan McCarthy, the acting Secretary of the Army. He is on a number of my

personal phone. I don't even recognize and I but I answered, anyway, you know in Virginia number, And he says, can you send the National Guard in the d C. And I was like, Uh, yeah, We've been waiting for two hours. So we Maryland National Guard were the first first ones from outside of DC to arrive from Maryland State Police

were next to arrive after the Metropolitan Police. Uh. And we we did everything we could to support them, we said, a thousand members of the National Guard, we said, I think members of the Maryland State Police and so of our allied county police forces at Prince George's and Montgomery County. But the hoops who had to jump through. Governor, I mean, it's just unbelievable. Do you believe that a nine eleven style commission will be able to get to the bottom

of it? And this is the right thing to do, to investigate what happened and why, you know, I do think we need full transparency and I think we need to get to the bottom of exactly what happened and why. You know. Frankly, I'm so busy focused on the COVID crisis. I don't know. I don't know all the details of what the proposal has been on the on the establishment of the commission that heard the speaker talk about. My concern is that, uh, you know, we really need a

fair and objective process. Um. And if it's just another if it's a partisan process just run by the House Democrats, um, it's not likely to have you know, it's we're gonna be mired in the same divisiveness and dysfunction with Republicans and Democrats retreating to their corners. I think time is gonna tell exactly how Donald Trump and his administration comes out of this. I think still got things to address and potentially in court cases and certainly the court of

public opinion. But I'm not sure that another congressional effort is really what we need right now, as we have to really focus on this COVID crisis that is killing people across the country. We're fighting variants, we need vaccines, and we need the economic recovery package. We need a compromise bill. Get That's really I'm more concerned about that

right now than arguing more about what happened last month. You, in fact, this week signed Maryland's one billion dollar bipartisan relief bill, which you said will help Marylanders barely hanging on right now, Um, can you just give us an update on what the situation is like in your state and the continued frustration that you're feeling about vaccine distribution, and if you're feeling more hopeful with President Biden's plan

to get people vascinated. Well, yeah, sure. Well I'm very proud of the fact that just on Monday, I signed into law this Relief Act of One, which was our signature piece of legislation. I said it was the most important thing for our legislative session to focus on. My legislature. Democratic in both the House and the Senate um, and I called on them to work with us in a bipartisan way. It's more than a billion dollars in tax relief and economic stimulus for struggling Maryland families and small

businesses and people who've lost their jobs. And it passed nearly unanimously. One Republican in the House voted against that, every Democrat and every Republican in the Senate voted forward. So it's what I've been saying. I had a meeting in the Oval Office with Joe Biden for an hour and a half on Friday, and I said to him, I really think it would be better if you could find a compromise that the Republicans could get on board with.

And this was, you know, earlier in the day, I went back to Annapolis and passed the bill nearly unanimous lee with my Democratic legislation, I was trying to put my money where my mouth is. Um But on the vaccines, it's very hopeful that we now have vaccines, the fact that they're actually out a year or eighteen months before anyone imagined they could be. Operation Warp Speed was a success, but we just don't have enough vaccines. And all the governors,

we have calls every week with the coronavirus. The team from from the Biden administration, Jeff Science, is heading that up. We have on there all of the cabinet officials and you know, the head of the CDC and everybody, and we had the lines of communication are good. We have set up huge infrastructures. Were now doing about sticking the thirty thousand needles a day and people's arms vaccinating them. But we only received twelve thousand a day from the

federal government. We could do a hundred thousand a day if we had the vaccine supply. And it really it's a it's a race between from between vaccines and variants. Very scary stuff out there, and we just have to have more. So we had calls today with some of the manufacturers. UM. We we've been talking everywhere about how do we increase this capacity. It's nobody's fault. It's not uh to criticize anyone. Everybody's trying their best. It's all

hands on deck. It's the federal, state and local governments and the private sector working together. But it's way too slow. We we just need more vaccines. Every state does. When you expressed your frustrations to President Biden, did you get anything that encouraged you or made you more optimistic about this? Well, I, first of all, I was I was optimistic in that

he reached out. You know that the president and Vice President spent an hour and a half with four governors in the Oval Office, two Republicans and two Democrats and actually listened and said, you know, very sincerely that they do want to work in a bipartisan way and that we we are all in this together. And um, and he did listen to some of our concerns about the

vaccine rollout. It wasn't criticism on our part, but we were basically saying, look, we need more understanding of when and how many and where because as we're making the decisions about we have distribution points in Maryland, and yet we don't know kind of when we're getting a supply or how many or where they're sending them to pharmacy. So a little more coordination and and they've promised to try to improve some of those things with US. Governor Hogan,

thank you so much. You're always so fun to talk to and and so like direct and you actually answer the questions. It's a real pleasure. Well, thank you very much, Katie, I really appreciate it. Thanks for the opportunity. Next Question with Katie Kuric is a production of I Heart Radio and Katie Curriic Media. The executive producers are Katie Kurik, Courtney Litz, and Tyler Klang. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Our show producer is Bethan Macaluso. The associate producers are

Emily Pinto and Derek Clements. Editing by Derrek Clements, Dylan Fagin, and Lowell Berlante. Mixing by Dylan and Fagin. Our researcher is Gabriel Loser. For more information on today's episode, go to Katie currek dot com and follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Katie currec For more podcasts for My heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.