Bill Weld: The Libertarian Contender

limited them to major network interviews. So this was a very big deal for me because it was a big opportunity to sort of peel the layers of the onion and discover what made Sarah Palin tick. And I couldn't have done it without the help of my trustee colleague, Brian Goldsmith. Brian is one of the martest guys I know. He's sort of my consigulary. Did I say that right, Brian? Sigiliary See, I have to ask Brian everything. What where would I be without him? I've just seen The Godfather

too many times. He's more You're more of a godson than a godfather because you're only thirty four years old. Let's be honest, Brian, did you realize that it was eight years ago this week when we actually well I actually you were in the room where it happened, as they said in Hamilton's, and sat down and interviewed Governor Sarah Palin. I didn't realize it was eight years ago this week until you mentioned it a few minutes ago.

Of course, that interview gets mentioned all the time. I think it's probably one of the two most significant political interviews ever done on television, the other being wait, what's the other Brian Roger MUD's infamous interview of Ted Kennedy in which he couldn't answer the question very complicated question why are you running for president? The question something wasn't it? It was. The questions were a little more nuanced and

complicated for Governor Palin. But what struck me in the aftermath of that interview, considering all the criticism that she got, is that not a single big name Republican, not a single McCain aid or advisor, said to you any of these questions were unfair or unwarranted. It was really all about her answers. She kind of buried herself as a national political candidate in a single interview, which was a

pretty remarkable thing to watch. Let's take our listeners behind the scenes a little bit, because we spent many days in what we call in my apartment, my daughters and I our red room. Now listeners don't think it's like the red room of pain in fifty Shades of Gray. It's anything, but it happens to be a dense slash library ray that I painted this kind of not very

nice shade of kind of rose. When I bought this apartment after my husband passed away in nine I wanted this to be a happy place to raise my girls, who were only six and two at the time, and so Brian, we spent a lot of time in that room, really going through the kinds of questions we thought would be important to ask Governor Palent And I think you and I, what do you remember from those days other than you couldn't wait to get out of my apartment

wanting to open the window to that library fresh It was only it's only on the second floor, so good luck with that. I remember the two of us thinking, uh, this is somebody who only had been a governor for

about eighteen months at the time. Before that was a small town mayor, and here she was in a position to be one heart beat away from the most powerful office on Earth, and so we didn't want to hold her to an artificially high standard or to a different standard, but we did want to hold her to the same standard as other people who had sought that office before.

We wanted to give our viewers who didn't know much about Sarah Palin, a sense of of who she was, what she believed, and how she would approach this extraordinarily important job. And we we divvied up the interview between foreign policy questions, economic policy questions, and questions about social issues. So the first one was really focused on foreign policy

and economic issues. And then later I did a second interview in Ohio when she was there for a campaign appearance, and that's when I asked that question that seems to be so remembered in this interview. Despite the fact that we talked about Iran and nuclear weapons, we talked about taxes,

we talked about all kinds of issues. We were walking and getting what's called b roll to cover the interview, and that's when I asked her, when it came to her world views, what newspapers and magazines had she read on a regular basis that helped sort of shape her perspective, and that's when she said, I were all most of them, again with a great appreciation for the press, for the media, like we I mean specifically, I'm curious that you know all of them, any of them that have been in

front of me over all these years. Um, I have them. I have a vast variety of sources where we get to our news to Alaska isn't a foreign country where it's kind of suggested, it seems like, wow, how could you keep in touch with with the rest of Washington. Do you see maybe thinking and doing when you live up there Alaska? Believe me, Alaska is like a Mike And it's funny, Katie. I remember exactly how you thought

of that question. We were on her campaign plane, UM, flying with her to that event in Ohio, and we could see into the first class cabin where Palin and her aids were sitting, and we could see her reading the New York Times. And I remember you're saying, Oh, that's interesting. You sort of wouldn't expect her to read the New York Times necessarily because she was and is a very conservative politician. I wonder what else she reads? Would that be an interesting question? And I don't remember that.

I don't even remember that that conversation, Brian, I remember that, and I remember we didn't even write it down as part of the written questions because we just thought it wouldn't yield a particularly interesting answer. Um, And so you just threw it in as part of what we call the walk and talk, not thinking that we would. I mean, I imagine you didn't think we would even use the audio of it. Yeah, I I wasn't sure. And it was interesting because I think her her aids realized that

it was not going well. And you actually saw someone emailing something on their BlackBerry what was that? And I did during the very first interview you conducted with her in New York during u N Week, we were in a hotel room and it was very kind of close quarters along the side of that room while you were conducting the interview, and I peered over in a nosy way, and I saw what a very senior McCain aid was

typing on his BlackBerry. I think to Steve Schmidt, if I remember correctly, who was running the campaign, and he said disaster, disaster expletive, So they knew, they knew that it was bad. I think we knew that it was bad. I don't think any of us knew how iconic and damaging the interview would be and how it would resonate even all these years later. I think people stop you to mention that interview more than any other, uh, any other work you've done if if well, that that and

my that and my colonoscopy. This was just a different kind of colonoscopy. Bryan. By the way, By the way, you know, I wasn't sure how this interview would be interpreted or received by the general public. I thought those who liked Governor Palin would like her more because her authentic, kind of homespun style, and I thought those who disliked

her would dislike her even more. What I didn't realize was this wide swath of undecided voters, what kind of impact it would have on them in terms of their comfort level supporting someone who seemed to be out of her depth when it came to major policy issues. Well, one thing that interview showed loud and clear, Brian, is that vice presidential candidates can make or break a campaign. Usually, usually the rule is nobody votes for president, but sometimes

they do, or sometimes they vote against somebody's choice. For vice president. And there is evidence that Palin hurt McCain, but I think you were just about to do a wonderful transition to art. That's okay. Bill Weld is running for vice president. He is an old political hand, or a political hand of long standing UM Governor Weld was a two time governor of the state of Massachusetts, and in nineties he lost a Senate race to John Kerry. Then he was nominated by Bill Clinton to be ambassador

to Mexico. In late May. Our guests in mid May May seventeen, to be exact, Gary Johnson named Bill Weld as his running mate for the Libertarian ticket for president of the United States. And Bill Weld is here to talk about that. Hi, Governor, how are you, Katie. It's a great pleasure. Thanks for having me. Well, this is a very exciting time for you. But the clock is tick game. What the hell are you doing this for?

Governor Weld. You know I have a bad character, I guess because I really enjoy this stuff, and this year, of all years, to have a chance to participate in that with a guy I've known for a long time, Governor Gary Johnson. He and I overlapped as governors and think the world of and we have very similar backgrounds, you know, fiscally conservative, socially inclusive and uh, you know, the two establishment party candidates are leaving a little bit of room in the middle for an alternative. A matter

of fact, that's an understatement, kind of a six lane highway. Well, we're going to get into sort of a lot of the issues and your perspective on this campaign in a moment, but I want listeners to have a better idea of who you are and why you're here. As Admiral Stockdale famously cent during one of those debates. Um, you may not be originally from Boston, but I think you're kind of the ultimate Boston Brahmin, wouldn't you say so? I

don't know about that. I was raised in Long Island, New arc and uh went to school in Massachusetts, never really left, but my family was from Massachusetts on on both sides up until the nineteenth century. Yeah, I think that's kind of an understatement. Your ancestor, I've read Edmund Weld was among the earliest students ever at Harvard College class of sixteen fifty, where two buildings and two professorships are named for your family. Wasn't Edman Weld the one

who was expelled for stealing horses. There was there was a sheep in there. I I read something about that. I didn't know what farm animals he got into trouble for, though. Well, I was attacked by the local uh Irish Senate president who gave St. Patrick's Day breakfast for my ancestors having come over on the Mayflower. And I said, no, that's

not true at all. Uh They sent the servants over to get the cottage ready for them, and after that, After that, I didn't hear anything more much about that issue. They just thought that was so funny. Well, and most politicians tried to claim to have been born in a in a log cabin they built themselves. So I think your your honesty was pretty refreshing there. It wasn't even honest,

but I got away with it. Were you? Kennedy? Ask in terms of politics being ingrained in you from a very early age, how did you get into this old crazy business? Well, you know, I didn't think I was gonna be uh in politics growing up. I thought I was gonna be a Latin teacher. But it is true that my father was active in Republican politics in eastern Long Island, and uh, you know he took me to meet people and go to Rally's age, you know, fourteen fifteen.

So to that extent, uh, I knew that politics was considered to be a noble calling in our family put it that way from both my parents. And you got your start in politics as a lawyer, not as an elected official. You were appointed, as I recalled by President Reagan to be U S Attorney for Massachusetts. What was that experience like, Well, that was, to effect, possibly the best job I ever had. That's the federal prosecutor from Massachusetts. And I went on from there to be head of

the Criminal Division of the Justice Department in Washington. So I had a lot of law enforcement experience under Reagan. My first job in quote politics close quote was actually working as a staffer for a center Javits of New York, writing foreign policy speeches. That's before I even went to

law school. And my second job was sharing in office with a young Yale law grad named Hillary Rodham on the Nixon impeachment, the House Judiciary Judiciary staff, and we literally wrote the book or the pamphlet on what constitutes grounds for impeachment of a president, and whatever happened to her, she's gone on to great things. But I'll tell you a funny story. So twenty five years after that, we

did that in seventy three, seventy four. So I think January, I get a call from John Podesta, who's in the White House as chief of staff at that and he says, looks like they're going to proceed against my guy. And we've looked around, uh, and it seems that there are only two people in the country who really know a lot a lot about what the law of impeachment is, and the other one is very much disqualified by interest. So you're going to have to testify as an expert

witness on the law, which I did. And what did you think of Hillary Rodham back in the day? What were your impressions of her as a young lawyer. Well, she's obviously smart and disciplined, and I've over the years always described her as a great kid. And the truth is we were both kids then, we were both in

our twenties. What what sort of stood out to you, I mean, other than the fact that she was smart, Can you give us more insights into sort of how she operated, her character, her sense of humor her whatever. I would say both good. Both character and sense of humor good. And Uh, she presented as a straight not as a Nixon hater. There were some people on that staff who just couldn't wait to bring down Dick Nixon and perhaps shouldn't have been on that staff. But no,

I would say she was pretty straightforward. You then moved home to Boston, following your stint in the Reagan Justice Department, and ran for governor as a Republican in a state where I think fewer than of the registered voters at the time were Republicans. What was that like? Well, I was I was beaten very badly at the state Republican convention uh in the spring of nineteen ninety and just got lucky. Uh. In September, the race kind of broke

my way, so I won the primary by a little bit. Uh. And then the Democratic Party split right down the middle, and Uh, the fellow who had beaten me for attorney general twelve years earlier, very badly beaten me, uh did not get the nomination, and John Silver, who was the president of Boston University did. He was ahead of me most most of the way, but then he had a couple of blow ups on TV with Natalie Jacobson and then Leslie Stall in the closing ten days of the campaign.

And I think we won by one point something like that. But it was class. I remember interviewing him when I was at NBC and he was running, uh, and and I remember how ornery he was and how what a short fuse he had, and it didn't really work well for him when it came to talking to reporters or doing interviews. You know, in a way he was very good, uh, very good copy was h uh. And we you know, we we were too people who were not afraid of

the microphone. Can you describe a little bit the experience of being governor of Massachusetts, being a Republican who was successful in an overwhelmingly democratic place. Well, I mean it was a tremendously enjoyable experience. I had very good staff, led by Charlie Baker, who is now the governor of Massachusetts. He was my secretary in both health and then later finance. Uh. And I brought a bunch of people over from the U. S.

Attorney's Office who were very experienced investigators, prosecutors. Uh. Nobody came near us with any improper suggestions because they knew we were all federal prosecutors, so that was a plus. We were able to cut taxes twenty one times and never have a tax increase. And that you asked about the first term and the experience, that's that's the dominant feature of the first term is taxes went down, spending

went down. We actually cut spending in real dollars. And when the small and medium business community saw that they had the confidence to add jobs. So we went from being the state with the highest unemployment rate among the then eleven industrial states in the country at the beginning of my first term to having the lowest unemployment rate among those eleven states at the end of my first term. That's where the big reelect came from. It was the economy.

It wasn't because we were such great guys. Let's talk about you say that you agree with the Governor Johnson in terms of you'd like to limit foreign intervention for regime change, But are you really comfortable as a libertarian or you are more libertarian ish? No, I'm I'm running as myself. I'm not running with a copy of the Libertarian platform in my pocket anymore than I ran with a copy of the Republican Platform in my pocket when I was running as a Republican. I mean I never

bought into the Republican social policies. They were you know, they were anti abortion. I was pro choice. They were so so at best about gays and lesbians. I was out there for the entire decade of the nineties on gay and lesbian issues, promoting civil rights, promoting marriage equality. Um you know I I I also think that we have to be darn sure that we maintain and demonstrate military supremacy for the United States and both naval and air power, because I know that people all over the

world look at that like hawks. I know you said that you don't follow the Libertarian platform to the letter. On the other hand, you're running mate. Gary Johnson has taken a number of positions personally where there seems to be some difference between the two of you. Can I kind of go through Can we go through a few Johnson's positions and get your views? Um in he advocated cutting the federal government nearly in half at cut Do

you think that that's realistic? I think we're aiming at now and I often have said before I teamed up with Gary Johnson. I've never seen a layer of government that didn't have ten or excess spending in it. And I'm not talking about the words people always use waste, fraud, and abuse. I'm talking about programs that shouldn't be there in the first place, and ill conceived programs like what bureaucracy that nobody can tell you quite what they do.

I mean, I think there's probably even more of that at the federal level than there is at the state level. But what who's head? Uh? No, my my, uh. The guy I follow here is actually a Democrat named David Osborne who wrote a book called Laboratories of Democracy about how the states can experiment with things. And his recommendation, which I've always followed, and I think probably Charlie Baker after me has followed, is to zero base the budget.

You you don't assume that you have last year's appropriation plus five percent, which is what they assume in Washington. You assume every account is zero starting off, and then you look at the results of last year, and if the result of this preventive health program was marvelous outcomes and saved lots of money and improve people's lives, you might multiply that appropriation by twelve. You know, none of

this tem percent across the board stuff. Then you get to bureaucracy, and it could be the Department of Education, it could be the Department of Commerce, it could be Homeland Security. Uh, you know, uh, we we have our thoughts, but you want to examine them and that that might be a zero. So that's that's how you really get

budget savings. And I did as governor in Massachusetts cut spending in real dollars from year to year at at the beginning when I took office, and each of Gary Johnson and Bill wild were rated the most fiscally conservative governor in the United States back in the nineties. And that's something that's got to be done now in Washington. And both the establishment party candidates have said, oh no, we're gonna not gonna touch entitlements. We're gonna bigger this,

bigger that. Um, we're not so sure about that. Let me go down this laundry list. If I could governor maybe you can just give me a year or nay a thumbs upper thumbs down on some of Gary Johnson's positions marijuana legalization, yea or nay. Yeah, I'm okay, with that treated like alcohol, I think alcohol is probably more more harmful than marijuana. Deep six common Core, Oh very

much so. And the reason I say that is, Uh, we put in high stakes tests in fourth, eighth, and tenth grade in Massachuset assets and after they kicked in, Massachusetts was number one in the country and reading in math every single year. And if we went to common Core and mass it would be a real downturn. You know, if I had been the governor of Mississippi or Louisiana, I might I might feel differently, but I don't want to be part of a race to the bottom when

I'm on top. No government involvement in fighting climate change. Something tells me, Governor, you're not that jiggy with that. Yeah, right, that would be That would be correct. Now. I've been quite active in the environmental area, and I would say to Ed Crane, who is the head of the Cato Institute, even in the old days when I went out to his annual meetings, the one part where I, you know,

get off the bus, uh, is environmental enforcement. Just because the the economies of scale are so great, you cannot rely on the market of individuals and businesses to protect us all from environmental degradation, and Gary agrees with that. He says, look, the purpose of government, A major purpose of government is to restrain people from injuring each other. And if if it's you know, one polluter polluting a river, okay, that's very obvious. But if it's millions of polluters polluting

the atmosphere, it's the same principle. No demandatory vaccines. Well, um, you know I don't have flu shots myself. I represented the talking about vaccines for children. Governor, Oh, you mean like polio, and that sure, absolutely, that's that's that's fine, discretionary. There shouldn't be mandatory vaccines for children, for babies, for infants. No, if you mean polio tetan is that sort of thing though, that's perfectly fine. Mmr. You know, all sorts of vaccines.

That's very controversial. You know, I would not agree there should be no mandatory vaccines for children. I don't agree with that. So you believe there should be mandatory vaccines, And I just want to make sure I'm getting this straight. He claims the no fly list is error prone and it shouldn't be used to deny gun purchases. Are you cool? With that. You know, I think Gary and I have had some influence on each other over the course of this year, and uh, I think that I've had some

influence on his thinking in the foreign policy area. He's had some influence on my thinking in UH criminal justice reform, you know, treating possessory narcotics offenses, for example, as a public health emergency as opposed to UH a fit candidate for criminal treatment and lengthy sentences. So if you're on the no fly list, do you think you should be able to purchase a gun? Well, I think before you can purchase a gun, there have to be some further questions,

like why are you on the no fly list? And I think Senator Collins of Maine has proposed to kind of compromise legislation that seemed to me when I read it to address the situation. Preserve people's rights, but have short waiting periods when they get to clear their name and say I shouldn't be on this list. All right, We're going to go to a break in a moment.

But the final thing on my little laundry list, raise social security retirement to seventy two is what I have heard from Gary, and I agree with that, and I agree with him very much that if we do nothing about Social Security, and I do favor raising the retirement age, I do favor imposing a means test. If we do nothing, it's not going to be there for the next generation. And that's what a lot of all is brew haha

about the millennials is about. I think they understand that if we put our heads in the sand and do nothing about the entitlement programs, they won't be there for the generation it's now eighteen to thirty four years old. But do you think it's acceptable for somebody who works with his hands or as a laborer, a coal miner, if somebody works in a factory for that person to

have to work to age seventy two before collecting any benefits. Well, maybe conjigger with the program to have exceptions, but generally people haven't wanted exceptions with Social Security. That's why people have opposed the means test. I think that's insane. Why shouldn't there be a means test? I mean, let's be honest, you don't need social Security, Governor, right, I don't need social Security. I'd be happy to say no. It was interesting.

I used to talk to my mom and dad about it, you know, and they were savers and we're very frugal. And I'd say, mom and dad, do you really need social Security? They're like, yes, we do, but don't. I mean, it's just to me, it just seems ridiculous. Yeah. No, I mean to say there should be no means test

as a non starter in my book. And yet you know, people say, no, we're not going to touch social Security in any respect because they think it's a third rail, because they don't want to actually talk through the issues. And I think Gary and I are not afraid to talk through these issues. Well, there's another there's another argument about not imposing a means test on Social Security, which

a lot of Democrats make. You don't want it to become a welfare pro Graham that only benefits people who are less well off, because then the political constituency for social Security declines. To understand, I understand, and people on the you know, left left side of things fiscally want everything to be an entitlement. And the extreme example of Senator Sanders, and I think Senator Clinton has picked up a lot of the Sanders program, uh in her primary

tussle with him. Well, speaking of Hillary Clinton. When we come back, we're going to talk about who your siphony votes from, Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump and what you think about that. Will be back with more from Bill Well. Right after this, we're back with Massachusetts Governor Bill Weld, who is currently running for Vice President of the United

States part of the Libertarian ticket with Gary Johnson. You know, I asked for questions Governor Weld from people who follow me on Twitter, and many asked, h if you were hurting Hillary Clinton and we're actually um enabling a Trump presidency, how you would feel about that. First of all, we're not out to hurt anybody, unlike the two establishment party candidates, who seemingly like the two parties they represent, want to

kill each other. As near and I can tell, as I can tell to this point, we draw votes pretty equally from the two establishment parties, something of a surprise to me. I would have thought they would almost all come from Mr Trump, because my appeal would be to moderate Republicans, and there's a bunch of moderate Republicans who are not too comfortable with Mr Trump and might even stay home. Uh. And given you know, our ticket to successful but genial Republican governors two terms each, they might

very well come our way. And I think we're getting our share of that. And I think as the weeks were on and people focus more intently on the on the race and the issues, it will be easier for me to make the case that, you know, what Mr Trump says about having a closed economy, no foreign trade, uh, that sort of thing, it just is incoherent. So I think as we go on, more votes are going to

come from Trump. And there seemed to be a little bit of a divide on sixty Minutes between you and your running mate on this particular issue Trump and and Clinton. That is, Steve Croft said you seem less comfortable with the idea of Donald Trump as president than Hillary Clinton, and you said something like, well, I think you're a pretty astute observer, did well in school. You did well in school, and and I think Gary Johnson basically said,

you know, they're equally rotten. So if it if the evidence mounts that your candidacy is enabling a Trump presidency, would you consider, as Carl Bernstein speculated in the last few days, dropping out, Well, you know, I can tell there's some nervousness over at Clinton headquarters. Because I've received several dozen emails unsolicited from people I don't know, in the last two days saying you are a pariah, You're awful, You're gonna go down in history, You're worse than Hitler.

You're going to enable a Trump presidency. Every vote you take away millennial from Hillary Clinton is sustaining upon your honor and that of your ancestors and your child. I mean, very strong stuff, obviously orchestrated. They all came out of a clear blue sky. So I know there's some nervousness over there, but you know, I would say, go get your votes, go hold on your votes. You know, Gary and I did not get into this because we wanted

to please, uh anybody in particular. You know, we certainly didn't get into it to please people in other countries. By our support of free trade, we think free trade benefits the US economy, and I'm pretty sure we're right about that. But people say, oh, you know, you're against American workers because you're for free trade. I mean, that is just totally incoherent. We no matter what your motivation, though, Governor, I mean, are you prepared to be seen as a spoiler?

Sort of the Ralph Nader of this race, if in fact, you do siphon votes from Hillary Clinton and help usherinna Donald Trump presidency. Are you are you ready for that? Because if we do a reality check, let's be honest, you're probably not gonna win. Well, we're gonna try. We're

gonna make our case. And when you get done hearing what I have to say about Mr Trump and rounding up eleven million people and deporting them, and building a wall with Mexico and having a closed, a closed economy and no free trade whatsoever, and to bring back the smooth Hauly tariffs that brought on the Great Depression, and arm the Japanese and the South Koreans with nuclear weapons. I mean, the list is almost inexhaustible. Yeah, but Governor, well,

that's that. That's well and good. But people have been criticizing Donald Trump for those very issues four months now and it doesn't seem to have a major effect on his candidacy. So are you being naive by suggesting as people become more aware of some of his positions that his his support is going to wane because he seems to be increasing his support, you know, and and it's

it's getting close to d Day. Well, I think it can only be good for the country, frankly, for people to become aware of what alternatives there are in this election year. And neither of the other parties represents the combination of fiscal responsibility and social inclusiveness that we represent.

So that's really my answer to that whole line of attack. Well, I'll give you a theory that was positive by somebody who knows you, who said the following, and you can tell me whether you think this is true or not. This person said you were gonna be another Republican who endorsed Hillary because you have a long and warm relationship with her, and then Johnson called you out of the clear blue sky, said you know you could be his

running mate. It gave you an opportunity to put yourself and your issues kind of back on on center stage. And you thought, as you said, that you would take more votes from Trump than from Clinton, so kind of a win win all around. Is any of that accurate. I can't remember having a specific plan at any point to endorse Mrs Clinton. The part about Trump is true, but a specific plan. Did you have any intention of

endorsing Hillary Clinton? I don't recall that coming up before Gary called me no. I mean, it's it's no secret that I think she's qualified to be president. Now I do not think Donald Trump is qualified to be president. So if push comes to shove, will you drop out? As if if in fact you that's absolutely not I've never called on anybody else to drop out of a political race or not run in the first place, and equally not not persuaded to listen to that kind of counsel,

even from you know, well meaning folks. And in addition to the orchestrated emails I've got, I've heard from some New York friends of mine that they're worried about Mrs Clinton and that's that's a lot has been written about that in recent days. It's called bed wedding. But you know, is that it's yeah, nervousness about the Clinton prospects. Uh and uh, I don't know. I guess I'm old school

of Massachusetts politics. Never never let him see you sweat or r r P. I guess Mitt Romney and other leading anti Trump Republicans have said, Hey, if Bill Weld were on the top of the ticket, we'd support them. But Gary Johnson not so much. And I have to ask you about some of his gaffs. He didn't know what Aleppo was, as you saw, and you talked about that on Sixty Minutes. He was asked by Mike Barnacle on on Morning Joe, what would you do if you

were elected? About Aleppo? About Aleppo? And what is Aleppo? You're kidding? Aleppo is in Syria. It's the It's the epicenter of the refugee crisis. Okay, got it? Got it? And apparently, according to the New Yorker, he had never heard of Harriet Tubman. Is that? Could that be? Maybe she's better known in the East than the West. I don't know. I will tell you I hear a lot in Massachusetts, in New York from old friends of mine.

You should be on top of the ticket. And when I get west of the Mississippi with Gary, guess who gets mobbed at the airports. It's not me, And we don't hear anything about flipping the ticket. But until January you're running mate. Mr Johnson was CEO of a marijuana company. You know, he hadn't heard of of Aleppo. As Katie mentioned, Do you think he's ready and qualified on day one

to be president? Gary is? Gary is very sharp, and he showed a lot of sand and grit in New Mexico and kind of shocked the establishment there by winning. He was at one percent when he started. He had a big impact Fishly. He vetoed seven and fifties spending bills, and he was overridden twice, and the legislature was pretty close to two to one Democratic. So he knows how to talk to the people and make things stick. Uh, he does not have uh, you know, an Oscar wild

facility with language. But you know, I thought I was a pretty good chess player, and uh, Gary and I have now played twice and he beat me both times, and I had master points and he taught himself. So and then you look at some of his other characteristics, like driving himself as an athlete. He's a professional quality ironman triathlete and has climbed the tallest mountain and all seven continents. So he's a driven individual. And he's got a backflip on sixty minutes that was quite a diving

board with no no spring in it. But he's a driven person. And obviously he's run for president Nined States twice. Now. He has plenty of ambition. He also has plenty of humility, and and people sometimes mistake that for something else, goofiness or something. They say, how come this guy isn't saying I'm the greatest. You know, he's talking around the use. Why does he just come out and say I'm the greatest. Well, you'll never hear that from Gary Johnson. He's very I

would would you say that he's a bit quirky? Is that a fear? Think he's quirky? I think I'm a bit quirky. They're they're different quirks. But I think the overwhelming thing about Gary is his humility. He reminds me in many ways of Abraham Lincoln, who Uh you know what I asked Gary, how do you climb these mountains? He said, I put one foot in front of the other.

That's how I do all my athletics stuff. And Lincoln, you may remember, was asked how how long should a man's legs be because Lincoln was very tall, and they wanted him to say long like mine, and he said long enough to reach the ground. So they both have kind of homespun wisdom. And uh, I I refer to

Gary as honest Gary on the campaign trail. It's the one undertaking we made to each other when Leslie and I flew out and shook with him on the deal after he and I talked on the telephone, is We're gonna tell the truth to each other and and to the public throughout this campaign. And Gary is obsessed with telling the truth, which is why sometimes he seems painfully honest.

And yet when I mentioned Gary Johnson to people I know who aren't following the day to day of politics, the first word, inevitably that comes up is some variant of pothead. How do you respond to that, is, do you think that just sort of a bias we have toward alcohol against marijuana, or do you think there's a sense that you know, he's been on drugs for too long. No,

he's he's got a mind like a steel trap. Honestly, I've been in a lot of plotting and scheming conversations with him, and this guy has a rat trap mind. It's just that, you know, I said I was out there by myself for the decade of the nineties on gay and lesbian issues. Gary was out there by himself on legalizing marijuana for a decade as well. It was a decade after that. Uh, and so he came to

be identified with that. And while there are a hundred million Americans who have smoked marijuana, there are a lot who happen and to them it's just so alien, even if they're knocking back a couple of stiff ones every evening. So it's I think, fear of the unknown. But if you look at and I say, Gary has influenced me

on some issues, this is one of them. If you look at the statistics, uh, you know, you have a legal prescription uh pills killing thirty thousand people a year and marijuana killing I don't know how many people zero a year. That's a factor that's worth taking into account. And can I ask you, Governor, why you think we're in the state we're in when it comes to this campaign. Why do you think Donald Trump has caught fire? And why is he enjoying really such uh, you know, such

support across the country. And I suggest, by the way, I would recommend you not use the phrase basket of deplorables. Just why I don't. I don't know why he's gotten as far as he has. I aim to find out between now and November eight, because we're going to have even if not in the debates and we could still get in the second third debates. We're going to have a seat at the table and uh a platform to voice analyzes and you know, but certainly you must have

some idea, Governor. I mean, you're you're an astute observer of politics for many decades. Now, Well, what is he what is he appealing to? You know? What he's doing with almost every breath is to try to set group against group and set people's teeth on edge against each other and stir up negative emotions, uh, beginning with envy, than going on to resentment and ultimately hatred not too not too strong a word with his treatment of Muslim uh so, and he's had some success there by appealing

to the very worst angels of our nature. Uh. And it's a sad thing. So I think the more sunlight that can be shined on that the better. And I'm gonna be there trying to do that in the next next seven weeks. But it's the most uh negative and unappealing uh run of statements and initiatives and feints and dodges and lies and prevarications, uh that I've seen in my lifetime. And as you said, I've been around politics for a while. It doesn't seem too it doesn't seem

to stick. I mean, the sort of the teflon candidate is is such an overused phrase, but I mean he is beyond Teflon. It seems to me. Well, let's hope that when people are windows shopping that they're willing to put up with a lot for some entertainment value, but then at the end of the day, when they have to actually walk in the booth and cast a vote, that they'll be focused more on the merits. But it's iking.

You've described all the reasons that he's hateful and terrible and his policies are gonna potentially start a new depression. And you even compared his immigration planned to crystal knocked, which for people who do worse or worse. And yet he's tied with the Democratic nominee. So where is this coming from? I mean, go figure. He he retweeted pictures of George Lincoln Rockwell, Uh, you're too young to remember

he was the founder of the American Nazi Party. So Mr Trump gets called on this, why are you retreating retweeting George Lincoln Rockwell, Oh, it's nothing. Uh, it was an accident and it was a joke. Don't worry about it, baloney, it's a dog whistle. And uh, you know, the white supremacists will say, yeah, we know Donald is with us, and you know we don't care that he took it back and said he wasn't serious about tweeting the picture

of the founder. So it's just, uh, it's a terrible campaign on on so many levels that it sets new standards, low standards for American politics. And speaking of low standards, I think Trump's only response to you personally was when you made the crystal knocked comment. His campaign put out a statement in which he said, and I'm quoting here, I don't talk about his alcoholism, so why would he

talk about my foolishly perceived fascism. Yeah, well, um, if that if he wants to plead guilty to fascism, I'll plead guilty to drinking wine. Conversely, Governor, why do you think Hillary Clinton is having so much trouble that that young woman you met in your twenties and called a really great kid. I don't understand it, and I say so to everyone who will listen. I I don't get it, but obviously it's there. At one point, Trump was at sev unfavorable and she was at sixty eight or something

like that. I don't understand it. Uh, And it may be that, uh, you know, the negativity of the Republican primary season has slopped over into the general election, and everyone thinks they're supposed to be all upset about everything all the time. But but you know, the negative tone of the two establishment parties. I think we're we may make an issue out of that, saying, look, we're not being negative. Here's what we think. We are an alternative, and uh, we hope that that may have an effect.

How much do you think the criticism of Hillary Clinton is imbued by sexism? Oh, I'm I'm always prepared to look for misogyny behind every tree. I think women have had a hard time getting fair treatment. Do you think she has a problem with honesty and trustworthiness? Those have become the kind of buzzwords for people who oppose Clinton. Yeah. I may get cross wise with Gary here, but no, I don't think that. I mean, I think it's not a stretch to say there's some pay to play aspects

to the relationship between the Foundations and the government. And uh, I wish that the HUMA abbot and emails had come from her as well as from huma Um. But in the scheme of things that that doesn't match the level of shouting that's going on by everybody else. So what's the path to victory, Governor weld the past? To victory for me and Johnson is to solve our quantitative uh problem or issue, and that's the only thirty five percent

of the people know who we are. I don't think we have a qualitative problem because I think we've got the best, the best ticket, the most experience, and the best platform, which is to do what's necessary on the budget and also to be the opposite of what what Mr Trump is on social issues. So if we put our story in front of people, I don't have too much doubt as to the outcome. You're right, Katie, time is flying and we've got seven weeks to do that.

In what gives me some uh uh some ground for optimism here is it's in the last four weeks of the election that people really do focus with laser like intensity on the issues and on the options, and it's gonna be hard for them to ignore us all together. If we get even a modicum of earned media exposure in those seven weeks. But if you don't get into any of the debates, do you think that there's any chance that you could win? It's a very long put.

But then I saw Justin Leonards fifty seven foot put at the Brookline Country Club live to win the Davis puck Up gave us a cup for the United States. That's a long put that went in. Nice to have the common touch at the Brookline Country Club, isn't a governor's right? Before we go, I just have to ask you what newspapers and magazines have you read that have helped establish your worldview? I read the News. I got that joke, Governor, by the way, it seems to have

fallen flat. No, No, I got it. But I smiled in the room with him. He smiled. My reading habits have maybe shifted to making sure that I absorbed the Times and the Journal. I read foreign affairs. I read a lot in international affairs. And you're a writer I have. I can't let you go before mentioning that you've written

three books. Yeah, and also, and you don't know this, Katie, but I have a memoir in the can that's four seventy five pages long and that's without the fatal phone call from Gary Johnson in May of two thousand sixteen. So it's going to have to elongate a little bit, and then it will really be too long to read. I'm sorry, Governor, how many pages four seventy five and counting? Oh god? Well, well, yes, you're definitely going to have to uh do an epilogue for that. It should be

a fascinating month for you. I hope you drink coffee because you're gonna need plenty of it. That's entirely true. I'm a three and a half cup of day man already. All right, Well up that to five, Governor Bill, Well, thanks so much for spending some time with us talking about this Stranger Than Fiction campaign, and good luck on the trail. Thanks so much, Katie Bryant, Thanks thanks. We want to thank Gianna Palmer, Gretta Cone, and the Reverend

John de Lore for producing the show. Zack Dinerstein mixed this episode special Thanks as always to Mark Phillips for our fantastic theme music, and most of all, thank you for listening. If you want to leave us a message, please do so at nine to nine, two to four, four, six, three seven, and please subscribe, rate and review the podcast. It really does help other listeners to find the show. It helps Apple with their search algorithm to list our

show more prominently for people to see. So please subscribe, ran and review so we'll talk to you next time. Hey folks, it's me Mark Marin and if you love podcasts, you don't want to miss now Here. This a really big podcasting festival coming in October to the Los Angeles area. Come see me and lots of shows you love. More than thirty great podcasts live on six stages. It'll be a weekend full of laughs, storytelling, and your favorite hosts

up close. You've got your Wolf Favorites by Comedy Bang Bang and with special guest Lauren lap Kiss, plus more great shows like Brilliant Idiots, Criminal and The Moth, and I'm doing a special WTF as well. Do a v I P pass for meeting greets with your favorite hosts, sit up close and reserve seating, hang out in the VIP lounge and get more special perks as well. It all happens that now Here this October through the thirty in Anaheim, California, right near Los Ange Angeles. Don't miss it.

Go to now here this best dot com to buy your tickets. Okay, good, great,