Back to Biz with Katie and Boz: Tech journalist Kara Swisher

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career builder. You can find jobs with the work life balance and salary you want, Plus build a resume and apply to multiple jobs in just one click. Start your search at career builder dot com. Hi everyone. I'm Katie Couric and I'm Bozma st. John and this is Back to Biz with Katie and Bose. So this is it. It's our first episode of Back to Biz. We've been talking about it for some time now, and it's really happening.

I'm super jazz to get this party started. I know me too, and it feels like it's the perfect time to do it. Um. I'm still looking forward to all the conversations that we're gonna have here. You know, we've got ten episodes to interview leaders in business, tech, public policy, as well as entrepreneurs, pop culture, trailblazers and just all around huge big thinkers. Well, and we could really use

some big thing ers at this moment in our nation's history. Bows, and we're gonna be talking to them about how they're responding to these big societal shifts the pandemic has brought about, about how they're adjusting to this new way of life, often not just through adaptation, but innovation too. In many ways, Bose, I think this has been a terrible thing, but it's also a time for reassessing, recalibrating, and in some cases,

I think rethinking everything that's right that's right. And our first guests I think really sets the tone for this series as someone who's forward thinking and innovative and just all around so cool. She's so in demand, you know, I mean, she's a tech journalist. Kara Swisher, Kara, al Right, I'm here, Yeah, I'm here, I'm here here. Hold on, Oh are you cranky? No, not cranky. I'm tired. I've had days. Let me get my hold little one. Sec here you are, and the sunglasses, the aviators come on,

I mean gonna I'm gonna sleep during the internet. Wait, let me be the picture in your Kara is I think the personification of the modern media Maven and very good at alliteration too, because bos this woman is everywhere. She's a columnist for The New York Times. She's founder and editor at large of the tech site Recode. When she's not writing, she's podcasting, the co host of the

award winning Pivot podcast. She's the host of Recode Decode, and she's also cooking up a new podcast for The New York Times, which is still unnamed right now, that's set to release this fall. I don't know how she does it. And on top of that, she's a mother of three, two high schoolers and a relatively new baby. She's quarantining in Washington, d C. I love Kara. She's such a badass, and more importantly, bows she thinks I'm

a badass. But I know you got to know Kara recently in one of your latest gigs, right, yeah, that's right. Well you know what, We're about to be a trio of badasses. I'll tell you that because I've known Kara for some time. I met her at first when I was the chief brand officer at Uber and I had just stepped into a big pile of it, and she wanted me on stage at Recode, which is our conference. It was September sev and I went in really prepared to face the fire. You know, I knew she was

really going to give it to me. So I was prepared for Kara, But you know who I wasn't prepared for her Mama, her mother, who I met backstage before I even got on stage, and she gave it to me good. I mean, she was just giving me all the questions and Kara, Yes, Kara had to come and break us up. You know, I think she was probably

stealing some of Kara's questions. So well, I guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, right, those That's exactly right, because I think Kara is an amazing journalist and she's really feared but also revered and that's a tough combination. And we thought that she was the perfect

way to kick off our debut podcast together her. She has her finger on the pulse, not just a Silicon valley, but I think the business world in general, and the world of pop culture like you do, Bows right, and fashion because you know what, her affinity for aviators makes a lot more sense. Now I'll tell you that. Ye all right, last show or a movie that you loved. Oh god, there's so many um I think I liked um Oh gosh. That's while I was waiting for Top Gun Too, So I don't know what to say. I

love Top Gun to. I was so excited for the sequel and Wonder Woman too. I know it sounds crazy, I'm a big Top Gun fan. Anyway, let's get to it, Kara Swisher. I am super excited because you are our debut guest on Bound Biz with Katie and Bows get it Bows. Oh my god, Like the pandemic has gotten to you. Katie, Oh my god, let me look at Let me look at your bookshelves for those Emmys and

those Emmys back there. What's going on? Just if you Kara, just there, just but you and those know each other already, don't How did you guys get to know each other? Of all things? Arianna Huffington's introduced us um At at a graduation she was speaking at in San Francisco for a private girls school and and she, uh, she was she was hiring you to run marketing for or to

do marketing for uber Um. And so we met there while Arianna was addressing the young lady the young rich ladies of San Francisco essentially, And I think your daughter went there eventually at some point we're going to do it, but then never moved up to Sanaa anyway. So we met and but at uber and I listened. She had nothing to do with the disaster that was uber. She tried her best, Uh, sort of got sucked into a

really really toxic situation. I think that you came in post I think post when everything was already headed downhill exactly. But you know, it's like the I was telling Katie that you were the first person that I talked to when I decided to leave. Ah, oh, that's rightly. I wrote the story inside. Yeah, you know interesting. I talked to Francis Free the other day, who was also another pry excuse me the other day when who was another person?

It was a Harvard Business School professor. You know, all these women came in to try to clean up that mess, and uh, and we're not successful. And of course Dark Coaster Shaw Heat today had to lay off I think three thousand people. It's some enormous number of people that people have been laid off, and they're closing down some

businesses like freight. Um. It was at the time then everything was going great, and there was it was a culture problem that was born of the CEO, Travis klink and and the people he hired and trying to turning around a success, turning around a success into toxicity. And so you were trying to do that, and to me, it was like putting lipstick on I don't know what, on a coronavirus or something. It was just not good.

That's not to make a joke about, but really you were trying to market something that had a fundamental issue with its business and now of course it's because of real issues of health and other things. Well, we're excited to talk to you, Kara, because a lot of the columns you've been writing in the New York Times or precisely some of the things we want to address as we go about this quote unquote new normal or new

new future is ray Dalia said, that's right. That's really how how technology has been affected and how technology can help or in cases when it hurts. But before we talk about business, I know we wanted to talk about education. Sure, yes, well, I mean that's the thing. I mean, we're all adjusting, right. You mentioned you have a you know, kids who are looking towards graduation, et cetera. What what do you think is going to happen? Um? In terms of college, I

mean virtual college or you thinking of gap years? Like what what do we do or what does what does your your child do? I'm leaving it up to him. He's gotten into two schools and he's gonna be going to n y U and so of course that's hot spots Central um. And I don't know. I'm going to leave it up to him. He every every day is different. He's like, I don't know if I want to do school on zoom. I think it's gonna gonna have to and there's gonna be definitely different. It's not gonna be

the freshman experience that that everybody got to have. Um, And so I'm going to leave it up to him. And although I don't know what schools are going to do in terms of everybody taking a gap yere people take a gap year, that changes all the dynamics to the school. UM. So I'm going to let him decide. He's a he's a fine young man and he will figure out what he wants. He's definitely handling it better than most people. Yeah, yeah, but I know that the

you know, it's interesting. There are all kind of creative solutions that educators are going to create, right and I guess to engage their students. I mean, you said in a recent column, I know of no parents, including those living and what are considered good school districts, who are happy with their children's online classes terrible. So so what happens? I mean, what are the innovative ways you think that

educators are going to be able to gauge? I don't think I think it teaches us that analog learning is so important. I mean, I think they've been trying with these zoom classes, but they're not engaging at all, and they're not They're trying. I have friends who are teachers and they're trying their best. Um, but I think it's very hard to engage people without the one on one that. That's what it shows to me, like that, it's some things are not able to be digitized, and this is

one of them. You think education would have gotten a lot further. Um. I think for adults it's a little better. Tons of people are taking webinars and classes and learning to like, I don't know, like cut hair, but not just that, but like play the banjo and those those work okay because adults can take it. But I think young kids you really need to engage them on a one to one level. And I don't know, it just it makes me think that, like how good are schools really? Right?

And but I think they have to be one on one and have that social element. Are you surprised, care though, that schools didn't adapt more? You know, you have the con Academy. You would think that they would be a little more forward thinking about digital learning in general and perhaps come up with ways to make it more engaging and more effective. I guess yeah, But think about the equipment you need if you want to do VR. That would be the solution. Right now. First of all, a

lot of kids are getting completely lost. Your talk about digital divide. It's crazy. It's crazy, like not having internet access, not having a great device, not just they're just not going to school. They're not which is even worse. You know, Commmit, now, if you get into the VR area, the equipment, you know, it's just not there. It's just not there. And it's not it's pricey, it's it doesn't work that well, that

would be the I suppose the thing. But what what does How do you do an engaged curriculum on a screen? You know, you can do it with entertainment, you can do it with chat. But I don't think it translates necessarily because they've been working on educational stuff for a long time online and they thought it was gonna take over everything, and I just I just don't I don't know. Well, let's talk about business. Um, obviously this has upended everything,

so we're going to break it down. First. Big tech, your confident places I read like Apple, Facebook, and of course Amazon are going to survive, and I guess, in the case of Amazon, even thrive. They're all I think you talked about how they were larded. I like that word used in your column, larded with enough cash. So what they're too big to fail? Uh, they're not too They're not too big to all. They're too rich to fail. Why should they fail? They have so much money, Like,

that's the the issue. They have all this money. Some of them are doing rather well, like the Amazon's stock is really is doing really well because they're providing services right now and everyone else can't keep up. That's the real issue. Is that already, except it's already accelerating trends that have started to happen. Retails already been under duress from companies like mostly Amazon essentially, So now it's not

they're not under dress. They're under darressed and they've been closed and they're financially at a disadvantage, and they're not getting VC money. They're not getting like you know, the Delhi or any stores are not getting that. And so so the big companies, not just Amazon, by the Walmart is going to be doing really well because you can go to Walmart's nown essential store, but they also sell like as Stephanie Rule just point out surfboards, like, so

what happens to the surfboard guy? Right? He can't? You know, everybody gets used to and doing well in this time here, and they don't have these cushions that these tech companies have. They don't have this technology that the tech companies have to really figure it out. And so say your Google and Facebook and advertising, they're only going to get stronger. Well everybody else look at their layoffs and all the

media companies. Google has maybe a little bit of a downturn in the advertising, but when this is over, where people going to go? Google and Facebook? Which is why I assume the government's investigating. Well, also where's the government going to go to get cash? If you also write they're coming after those big, big industries, those big companies because they are so rich and they're going to be paying for a lot of the stuff that we need,

right exactly, they're gonna be the company's making money. And so the issue is there's no how can you innovate and how can you keep small businesses alive in this environment? I think the government is doing a very good job of it. As you know, so many stories I mean, the amount of stories of misuse of funds there's going to be in newspaper for for years to come. Um and And I think the issue is that these companies they're they're not just rich, they're rich. There are they

can put. Look at all the tech companies like Twitter told his companies employees just to stay home forever. You know, if you want to Google, they can work from home. Facebook they can work from home. It's not ideal, but they certainly have environments where that doesn't hinder their businesses. Big tech had recently been so scrutinized for monopolies, for uh tech addiction, for misinformation and all kinds of things.

Now they're bigger fish to fry. So they are probably breathing a bit of a sigh of relief on that front, too, aren't they. Although you know, Bill Bill bar just was talking about that. There's two stories in the journal, and I think there are times about the Google being the case against Google moving forward, the investigation against Schoogle moving forward, and so this is an advertising and so I think it's that was a little bit of a shot across

the bowl, like we haven't forgotten. I think the issue is there's less appetite in dis lative areas to do like privacy bill. You know, when they're doing these other things, they can't agree on lunch there, they can't agree. They can't agree on pandemic relief right, like think about it, Like they're not going to agree on what privacy is. Now that's said. Look, you have like Elizabeth Warren and Congresswomen up um AOC is working on this anti merger

build during the pandemic. You've got Josh Holly over on the right working with Elizabeth Warren on the bigness of big text. So there are a lot of interesting coalitions forming around that. And they've used the pandemic to redeem themselves. You know, we're not we were we we got rid of those anti vaxers, we did this, we stopped misinformation about that. It only underscores that they can do it. And so when it comes to political stuff they don't

do it. But here they've done it. So I think they're using it as a bid for um maybe we're not so bad. But even if they do good, doesn't mean they're not too big. And I think that that'll be their issue going forward. I mean, you you have been talking about some of these Darling's selfcon Valley, but they're they're facing challenges too. You know, we talked about Uber a little bit, um Airbnb. There there's so many who are facing challenges, and obviously, as a marketer, i'd

love to talk about, you know, perception, brand perception. What is happening in press that affects those businesses. What are your thoughts? Well, I think of the Uber ads, they're I'm glad you're not driving. I'm glad you know, It's like it's like sort of Wendy saying I'm glad you're not eating and eating it's not such a hot thing. I was fascinating, you know, there was that whole thing together of all the words they use. Now you know, we're here to help family, hope, stay home, stay safe,

We're here for you, We're here for you. Um. I was really fascinated by the Uber ones with the tinkling music. I'm not sure if it worked that I liked them any better. I don't know why they spent money on it telling me not to get in a car. I

don't know what did you think? Well, it's it's it's actually funny because there are so many different ways to present the same idea, right, right, And and so what brands need to do is figure out actually how to just take that idea of comfort and make it sound like it's coming from them, but not also destroy your business, you know, on top of it. But what's the use of a marketing ad that says, please don't get in a car if you're a car rental, you know, a

car sharing company. I just don't. I don't get it. I don't get I was sort of sort almost wrote to her because you're hating, was like, okay, alright, like please please don't do what we do. I also feel like there's so many of those ads going on now, you guys, they all kind of blur together. For me. Of course, they all wore my herd and I'm like, yeah,

but I can't remember who's doing what. They all start to feel pretty duplicative to me, and and then I start feeling like you're just jumping on this band and kind of get turned off. Yeah, but that's the whole point, is that they should be melding and molding their conversation in this way, but affecting their own business, you know. So I would love an add that this sucks. We had a late pop all off and you're not getting in cars like, hey, come back to us when things

are better, we'll give you. Everyone gets a mask or something that's that's more helpful for me what I don't know. I don't know. It's interesting that that uber is advertising. I didn't see one from Airbnb, which of course is really talk about a company that's really terrific, has a great product, and it's really strained at every aspect of their business. Was has set to go public? I mean, can you I'm interviewing Brian Chowsky later this week about that.

But it's just like that one is really like what do you do? There's nothing to be said except you're in the wrong business at this moment in time. I think their eventually people will be fine. They'll be a vaccine. People will go back to it because it's a good product, right like you have the differential between the good products. It's just because of this particular pandemic and the actual structural things those there's not cyclical, they're sort of pandemical.

And then there's things like gyms that you may not go back to. A movie theaters is a really good thing. Movie theaters are already on the down swing, right except for like an Alamo drafthouse that had an experiential kind of element to it, and so movie theaters are already on the downtown. That's why you're seeing all these stories whether Amazon's going to buy a MC or Disney would buy one of them, because they don't matter anymore, like

they don't there. It's it's an opportunity for those companies and it's a business that people stopped doing, and so that's the issue. Are you a structural problem. You have a structural problem where people aren't doing the same thing with with retail like there was just was a specialties. Specialties was a fifties store. Is not a huge business, but they have a lot in San Francisco. It started in San Francisco, great sandwich store. It was a great chain.

It was doing great. It's closing down. It doesn't have the financial resources to stay in business, and it doesn't know when people are going to be the whole structural change of people being at the office. It's not just for the pandemic. People are going to be going to the office as much and therefore the businesses all around it.

Parking garages, delis things like that, they're all going to be impacted, and so I think people don't think about that the community around these companies and how much they'll be hurting. But let's just go through some other sectors. Kara, what about the future of airlines and travel and the whole leisure kind of vacation industry. Well, I'm always fascinated by There was a story that that cruises have open and there have never been more full, Like right, everyone's

dying to it. So there is an element of people who take cruises are going to take cruises, and they've got to just put in practices into place that are going to keep people safer because you know, in this whole thing, the whole the whole idea of what's happened here is analog has struck back pretty hard, and we realize how much analog stuff we do. I don't think people are suddenly not going to be on planes. There's just gonna be different practices going on planes are gonna

be much more aware of things. And the person who was on your plane that was always marrying a mask isn't weird anymore, right, And maybe they'll hand them out and they'll have Jet Blue on the front or whatever the heck they'll have. But I think it's like if if you were I don't know if you're old in the buzz, but I know Katie and I are. When we used to go. When I was a kid, we used to go through airports right to the gate if there was no security. Like I was telling my kid that,

I was trying to make them feel better. Of course, it didn't about not being in school. I was like, oh, what we used to go. Things change and they don't go back, and so we had security. Used to walk through the gates. Then we had a level of security. Now we have enormous security. Over time, it's the same thing with it. It's going to be a different experience and everyone will adjust to it. You'll get on later, you'll get on. It'll be slower, you'll have masks, there

might be you know, all kinds of things. Now. Interestingly, airlines, they flow the air pretty quickly in those things, so I think people will feel better. We'll go back to that much quicker than you think. Can I just mention one thing you guys on airlines while we're on this topic, I've heard about these flights where they're packed in like sardines, And I'm like, what what is going on here? Why

aren't they taking this more seriously? And yes, I've heard about the air recirculating too, but it seems to me that they're not taking proper precautions. What is that all about? If they want to get people back? Right? So they so that because these loads, when they load these airlines,

they should have these middle seats empty. Even then though you know what I mean, Like you can do all you want, there's people in an enclosed space and this is like, hello, hello virus, that kind of thing, even when there's just a regular virus or a cold, everybody get Yet You've been on lots of planes, you know that. And so I think it'll be really interesting to see how they're going to play it. I think probably people will go back to it's just at a different level

and they can find different reasons not to fly. And again, digital means have made it so you don't have to. Like I was talking to a big broadcast network. You've worked for all of them? Is that correct? I? Okay, thank goodness, Okay, that wasn't that one, but it was one of the ones you work for, Katie, And they were talking about those those those upfronts that they would go to and stuff. And this guy was like, Oh,

we'd pay a lot of money. We fly first class, we get in the town cars, we go to the hotels, we've had the dinners. You've been to a million of those. And he's like, we did it all in two hours on the phone, like the decisions it needed to be made, and so why would we do it that way again? Why would we spend all that money again? It's like the three martini lunch. Yeah, right, and they that stopped and it was replaced by something else, And so I

think that but will begin to reconsider. If you're not a business person, you're not reconsidering all costs and thinking about what you can digitize, you're not really good business person. Yeah yeah, I mean, but speaking of the three martini lunch, what happens to restaurants? You know, what happens to that decimated dining experience? Even after you think yeah, because I think speaking of Uber, one of the bright spots has been Uber eats, right, and so what and they're talking

there was rumors of them being buying Grubhub. Well, they would have of the delivery market in the United States, I'm not counting New York because there's so much delivery in New York and that's sort of a it's already a system in place most restaurants, but you know, they'd have their I think George ash would have, Uber would have that's a crazy amount of control over the market, right,

And so people like that, like the delivery experience. If they that, they get around and get used to it, and so even if a small portion of it moves from going to a restaurant to using these availing themselves, that really can hit these restaurants hard. Um. And and you know you talked to a restaurant person, this was already a problem. These delivery fees that these companies take off the top, this is gonna kill them. Same thing

with grocery stores. And after Amazon can deliver, if only a small amount of people now like delivery by by Amazon, they're gonna use it. People people start to get used to things, and so once it's it's I hate to say it, but it's been a real marketing event for things like streaming, like Disney streaming or um or anything. It's been a marketing event for for for a lot of these people because people get introduced to the product. I think. I think the restaurant business, though, care has

got to come back. People, I mean, their social lives revolve around meeting friends at restaurants. Maybe not right away, but don't you think they didn't come back. I don't. I think it's gonna be. It's it's already been a tray. Same thing with retail. I mean certain retails certainly, but in general that any trends that were present are accelerated. And that's what you have to think about it. If

it's accelerated, it's it's act. And then how by tech you're really you're really You could go around from industry to industry and look at this streaming entertainment like people have been using these look at Netflix never been more useful and people never been bigger usage. Now I think people are going to stay in those zones. And they were already doing home theaters, they were already the technology availed itself getting these screens and the ease of use

and stuff like that. And so I do like Disney launching the streaming platform and speaking which Kevin Marriage is left to go to TikTok to b ceo, TikTok, those kind of things are going to do really well because this this stuff has people have gotten used to and are trying now. Not everything's gonna work. You saw Quimby. I was going to say, what happened to Quimby? But we'll see, We'll see. It's a lot of money spent. It's certainly they collect I think a hundred and thirty

billion dollars. Uh, it's a lot of money. And it's a question they were hoping for commuters right that people were on. So that's the issue is that I don't think some of the product isn't good, and I think some of the product is quite good. And it's an interesting idea. It's just there's a lot of options out there. Well, let's talk about TikTok. Yeah. Yeah, because my daughter, I mean almost eleven year old, she has an account. She posts a video. Hell, I don't know, a hundred times

a day she's begging me to join. I've seen so many of those videos, you know, these is TikTok. This is a TikTok. This is TikTok, and she loves it, you know. But also, I mean we've seen other platforms that are doing so well, like Zoom, you know, we've been thinking about that and how much that's increase in use. So what about those platforms is as ways to recover maybe some of the central company, And I think it's

going to fall off once this is over. I don't think Zoom is good, and Zoom was under stress because of the privacy and security. I don't know if you've gotten zoom bomb, but I certainly did. I wanted to be Zoom. Let me just tell you. You do not want to be Zoom. Trust me. It was what detends what they're bombing me. They're never bombing it was good good porns. It's always real dirty gross porn. Okay, right, not cood point. We don't want that. We don't want.

You know, you have to select your porn, Katie, as you know, as if I have a user of porn. I mean you have to choose it and to promise. Okay, anyway, let's are we too old to get on TikTok? No? No, you're wrong? Yes, Okay, you get the yes because it's not you're wrong. You're completely wrong. Tell me why. Oh my god, it's it's like when it's like when all

the adults got on Facebook and ruined it. Now because it's so the algorithms are so good, you get the things you want to get, and so I don't think it's quite like that. I don't think it's so apparent they use algorithmic selection so well compared to everybody else, knowing what you want and feeding you what you want and so you can stay in your little zones. What

I think is interesting. I've interviewed a lot of people and I think they did one podcast with Gary Vaynerchick and a lot of business people are trying out TikTok and so is There was a great story in the time to say about a vegan chef who was an actress who was sort of a didn't do very well and actress and now has been doing these lovely videos on TikTok and now she's a big hit shaded like so like there you see how it looks really thin. Now you've got a few strips, But you know what

you want more than this? Do there because there should be business. You're gonna use some liquid smokes, you know. And look at Sarah Cooper, who's amazing. She's a she's a comic. She left Google. I had done a cod passed with her when she left Google to be a comic a long time ago, and now she does the Trump She does the Trump voice with her acting it out. It's wonderful and she's become like a real sensation. I think she's going to parlay that into something there because

she's so talented. Not only that, but Gara there was also a Washington Post reporter who's doing critical reporting. He's kind of young, and he's getting younger people. He's for educating them, making them more knowledgeable, and really engaging them. Hello, old have you recently downloaded the op TikTok but you're not quite sure what it's for. Well, I'm here with a self proclaimed expert on TikTok, David Jorgenson. Dave, tell us what TikTok is. It's like a viral video app.

And what is the or you page. It's kind of like your news feed. You're probably on it right now. And tell me why is the Washington Post on TikTok? Uh? So, I'm gonna go with kar on this. Bows I think that business ignore TikTok at their own peril, and I think it's you know, I'm a big believer in you just have to be on as many platforms as you can. Mass media is now an oxymoron and you just have to consider aggregate viewers, aggregate listeners, you know, And I

think Karra has done an incredible job at that. Yeah, I don't thinking of TikTok all the time now after I did this interview with Karri v Intertrik, because he's doing advice, Like if you you could like there's no real there's there should be a really important business element giving business advice on TikTok. It's a much more flexible platform than in Instagram, which is sort of seen as entertainment right. TikTok is not yet formed, and so it

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career builder. You can find jobs with the work life balance and salary you want, plus build a resume and apply to multiple jobs in just one click. Start your search at career builder dot com. You're listening to Back to Biz with Katie and Bows. Let's get back to it. Let's return to our conversation. With Kara Switcher. Of all things that this has shown is how many people are exposed, especially because of the gig economy, which was fueled by

tech companies like Uber. Everybody, all of them use use contractors. And I think I had a really good podcast with Nicole Hannah Jones, who is who who did the sixteen nineteen projects. She writes about inequality for The New York Times, which was all about this idea of we call them essential workers now when in fact, before this we treated them as if they were not essential, not in essential in terms of how we paid them, or kind of

healthcare or any kind of benefits. They're sacrificial workers then. And it creates this sort of with New York magazine called Rich Corona, Poor Corona. Right, there's these lords and the serfs, and we're seeing that. We're seeing that in real time with people who are not protected, and we've got to really start to think hard about focus on people, not corporations. And well, I guess the question is you

talked all these big mockers. I mean, do you think they have the stomach and the will to say we're gonna start treating these essential workers better. You have had that nightmare story for Amazon. You know, Walmart workers didn't get mass for the longest time. I mean, do you think there's going to be a real shift in attitude? Well, look at that Amazon story was interesting because one of the stories I read was like they happened after Jess Bezos saw it and visited a warehouse, not until then.

So I don't think they're in the presence of mind to think of these workers as anything but sacrificial. They're not. They haven't they do. The idea of what an employee is has to change right very drastically because in this economy a lot of people are contractors, and so what is an employee? Do they how do they get benefits? How do they get child childcare? Look at look at

the issues around childcare right now. Anyone who has a young kids, no matter what they're they're monetary wealth right now unless you can force someone to work for you and fly them to I don't know, kirk Turks and cages wherever you live. Everyone is now understands the childcare crisis in this country because they don't have childcare all of a sudden, And I think that's the kind of thing we have to think about these workers is that

they're not paid enough. They don't they aren't able to make a living wage, and we're taking we're feeling it is a tiny bit in in inconvenient ways. Yeah, but speaking of the employees, you know, this is such an interesting topic around you know, sacrificial workers. By the way, that just blew my mind with amazing I love it. A sacrificial workers. I'm going to use that from now on because that is absolutely the truth. Thing gets the

center of it. Um, but you've talked about you know, w f H working from home right, and um, what that's going to be like? So what do you think of that? I mean, what what happens? Because Twitter right just announced that couple from home like indefinitely, what happens? How does that affect a lot of people can't work from home? They can't they have analog jobs, people who work for the m T A say, or people who you know, public transit, anyone who works delivery. Lots of

people can't work from home. And so what are we gonna do for those people? You know, it's very it's easy for people knowledge workers to do this, you know, so Twitter like doesn't matter where they are doing their coding it doesn't that they have a they're not connection in their computer. They're just fine like that kind of thing. And so what we've got to think about that this country is is more than just knowledge or else we make everyone a knowledge worker, which isn't going to have right,

you know. I mean it's a really interesting questions. How do we how do you work from home? And we do it in such a way that people can have good childcare, good health care um and and a good working wage. I mean, when they say they're going to give two more dollars to people for you know, combat pay, essentially, it's sort of that it's so insulting to me, you

know what I mean. Like or teachers, how are they going to deal with not having been trained in technology and now having to teach courses and make them interesting. They're just sort of here's a zoom, like good luck, Like what like, excuse me? This is how we're educating our kids. And so I think I think we have to have a real public private partnership on this stuff, because look, this administration has been incompetent on every aspect.

You can't I can't imagine they're thinking for the future of like what do we do next, you know, or how do we return? Who are you impressed by? I mean, if we ever needed some leader great leaders and and thoughtful leaders and thought leaders and all of the above, it's now. So who do you think is providing that kind of leadership, whether it's in the in the world of tech or outside of tech cacra. Well, you know, there's different people that have different voices. You know, Look,

you can't help. But someone who was who I've been very tough on over the many years, Bill Gates, But I think they've been He's been really prescient about this thing and what are we gonna do next around healthcare? And his wife Melinda Gates is really interesting. I think

I'm just thinking tech leaders. I think Mark bennie Off has been one of the most outspoken about the idea of compassionate capitalism and how to get there and how you have to you have to figure out a new ways of treating workers, um and creatively educating them and creatively caring for them. I think that he's talked about a lot of stuff. Um. You know, there's some politicians

you can't help but admire. Elizabeth Warren. In terms of some of them, I think she's the only politician I'll tell you a big tech is nervous about the idea of Vice President Elizabeth Warren has got them wedding because you know, she's she's super thoughtful about what we need to do, and she's been talking about this issue for the plight of workers and the average person for a

long time. Um. And even even the Medicare for All debate, like that may not be like all of a sudden like oh yeah, maybe so um And you know not everyone's going to get this not you know that. I do see the push pull of people wanting to get back to work. Of course they think I like not having stores closed, the people like not working. I just think it's this push pull of what average citizens have to realize they have to sacrifice, and it's something Americans,

the twitchy American electric doesn't like to do. When we come back, Kara Swisher finds a positive note for us to end on. Thank Goodness. Here's another podcast you should add to your listen list, All Worth Financials Money Matters. Every week, host Scott Hansen and Pat mc claim answer calls about investing, social security benefits and retirement with straight talk that's straight up entertaining. Everyone worries, well I have

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You're listening to Back to Biz with Katie and Boats. And before we finished our conversation with Kara, we asked her for the inside scoop on what tech innovations were really impressing her right now. Well, I think two areas are really big and I've written about them. One is climate change tech. I think there's some This is an area we're going to have talk about the next crisis we're gonna face. Climate change is an ongoing crisis that we have to figure out, and technology has to play

a big part in it. Not just getting rid of the carbon in the atmosphere, because that's just cleaning trash, right, that's just so what how can we make food? Like some of the food tech stuff is really interesting, you know, how we make food available, healthy food with less a tax on the planet. Some of the autonomous car stuff is really great. I visited a couple of companies right before this actually that I was really heartened by, like some of the stuff that's happening there and the idea

of of saving energy in that way. Um, some of the stuff around energy is cool. Like how we can build homes, Like the way we build homes right now is artisanal. It's ridiculous waste of of of all kinds of them that it contributes enormous amounts to greenhouse gases construction does so, Or what are we gonna do with if we're not going to have cars like I talked about not cars, or if we're not going to have so many commercial office businesses, maybe we could turn them

into homes so people could live more affordably. Like there's all kinds of like Like there's a great book by Brad Smith, he's the president of Microsoft, of all people Microsoft used to which used to be sort of the evil Empire. He's written amazing book called Tools and Weapons and the same thing. It's about tech. But it can neither be a it's like a knife. It can be a tool or a weapon. Which one do we want

to use it for? And I think that's like there's all these kind of stuff that we can take and start to think about and what's a better way of doing it? And I have to say all and if you want out a positive I think young people really do get this. What younger people do. My son is my son like he calms me down so much. He gets it, he understands it. I don't think he's particularly one way. He's just like, just take a second, like we can figure this out. Like they're much more. They don't.

They're not cynical, and yet they they do. I think I think they're frustrated with all them We've given them a terrible future with all this debt we've just piled on right now. Um, there's no choice here, unfortunately. But but I think and there's who can say viruses a virus, like there's nothing to be done about something like this. Um. But I think they feels that they're much more I don't want to say hopeful, but they're more pragmatic about things.

And I feel like, whenever I talk to young people, I feel much better about the world because I think they've grown up in this tech environment. They see it for what it is, and they're not fool the way we are. And and that doesn't panick them. It isn't you know, it doesn't upset them quite as much. And they're not afraid, I think to give their opinions sometimes I have to say without portfolio. But I think they they feel very liberated to to say what's wrong too.

Sometimes our embarrassment because I feel like we have done a really shitty job and a lot of departments. But I love the fact that they they care so much and they let you know they care and what they're going to do about it. And I think it's really

refreshing to do. You find that bows as well? Yeah, I mean I think that there's so much to be said for this coming sort of generation right there, innovating in a way that we never had to or generations before them really haven't had to innovate in this way. Certainly there have been, you know, terrible moments in history where generations have had to overcome what their parents did. But you know, even talking about Karay, your son, you know, going off to college and then coming out of it,

you know, what work is he going to do? How is he going to do it? If he's not stressed that about it, he's feeling hopeful about what will become. I just think it's a very positive way to look at the future because although we've saddled them with perhaps what is a really detrimental, horrible burden. Uh, if he's hopeful, that makes me hopeful. Well, also, you have to have a historical perspective. And I think I just did a great podcast John met Jim, who has written lots of

loves of people. He's amazing and one of the things that I think we have lost historical sense in the way our society is built so so tech forward and so digital forward, and that like someone the other day was, you know, this is just terrible. I'm like, well, slavery was terrible, the Civil War was terrible, the Whiskey Rebellion was terrible, McCarthyism was terrible, Salem which trouser. Like, we

have an ability to overcome things. It's just my only worry is that because we're so jacked into the tech system that it's taken over our brains in that addictive way. And it's really the communications platforms are so invasive and toxic that it may be the things that's pushed us over the edge. But we've overcome so much horrible history and for for lots of people and reached for some

really big goals like them. I was watching for some reason, I was watching the speech that Kennedy gave about the moon landing, and I was like, oh, remember that was great, Like there we can the minute we have a leader that's like that, I think it appeals to our best nature and it pulls us away from from all of this. Well, maybe we just need to get out of the way, Yeah, or just just let people. I'll end on. I'll end you a happy note. I live in this neighborhood in

DC right now with my kids in Shaw. And one thing that's great. If you walk around a city at least I don't know what it's like in the suburbs. Everyone's on their porches talking to each other. It's really people are sick of the screens, like they've gotten outside. They and and this. You just go by and meet. I've met. I know all my neighbors now, which is incredible, which I which I've moved into a new house, but I did, I would have taken me forever, would have

been closed inside. And there was this family across right on the owner for me, and they were all outside doing the electric slide of all things. And I was like the electric slide that these kids were loving it. There's little kids in name of course, Like I was like, this is an awful dance, but it's not. It's not. It's a great dance. And you know, and they moved to the macarena and it was like it was just a lovely night and I was like, oh, okay, you

can be like this, you know what I mean? There was a there was a real sense of community that was had been lost and I'd forgotten about. And I thought that was I hope you. I hope you have video of yourself doing the macarina. I did not. I was socially distanced and I am I could not do the electric slide to this day, I tried. I can't, No, I can't talk. I think I want some try to teach you to do the body roll. So we made I was, well, we're going to be successful in electric slide. No,

that's not happening. I can I will do it so badly. You'll be like I cannot believe someone dances quite so bad. It's really depressed. And I have to learn to dance because I'm getting married again. I think about hope over experience, um and uh, and it's a triumph of hope over. And my my girlfriend is an amazing UM. She does tango and she's like, if you know, dance on our freaking wedding. I'm going to divorce you right afterwards, and I was like, how, I've got to learn to dance.

So I'm going to get onto YouTube and learn how to dance. It's all right, but we can. We can do a zoom and bow and I teach you because I'm a pret I've seen you. You get down, Katie Couric, you pat down, blow like I saw one picture of you. I was like, girl, what's happened there? Jesus stripes? I drop like it's hot, drop it like it's what? Oh it is hot, Katie? What can you say? It was hot to start with, it remains hot. It will always be with Katie Kirk. Kara, thank you for doing that. Yeah,

who's who's next? Who are you having up? What is what is this? What do you try to do? Find hope? Right? We're just we're just talking too smart forward looking people who were you know, thoughtful and interesting and fun to talk to you? But I would tell you, but then I'd have to kill you. Carol. Well, good, that's a good discussion to have because we can we can change things for the better and get rid of the shooty things for sure. Like that. Thanks Kara, thank you, thank well.

That was it the very first episode Back to Biz with Me, Katie and Me so Bose, what did you think? Oh my goodness, I'm about to pop the champagne. That was fun and we're gonna do ten. So there's a lot more to come. We'll be talking to CEOs, entrepreneurs, political leaders, cultural trailblazers, gosh and so many more. So stay tuned, everybody. The next one will be coming the first week of June, and new episodes land every Thursday

after that. You can find Back to Biz episodes in the next Question feed or by searching Apple Podcast, the I Heart Radio app, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. And if you like what you've heard, spread the word. Let us know. Come find us on social media. We're on Instagram and Twitter and TikTok. What do you think bows, are you going to do it? Oh? Hell no, I'm not getting on TikTok. They can find you on TikTok.

I might do TikTok. I'm an early adapter woman, so you might find me doing a few very strange dances. So tell Layel your daughter, she's got to join me and follow me at least on TikTok. So I have somebody following me this all right, Well, the next show will be Katie and Lael. Okay. Meanwhile, I'm Katie Kuric and I'm Boa St John And this is Back to Biz with Katie and Bows. Thanks for listening, everybody, Okay bye. Back to Biz with Katie and Bows is a production

of I Heart Radio and Katie Currik Media. The executive producers are Katie Currk, bozmas St John, and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. The associate producers are Derek Clements, Eliza Costas and Emily Pinto. Editing by Derek Clements and Lauren Hansen, Mixing by Derrek Clements. Special thanks to Adriana Fasio. For more information about today's episode, go to Katie Kirk dot com. You can also follow Katie

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