Back to Biz with Katie and Boz: Stacey Abrams

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for for your download in the up stores. Atter dot ai. That's O T T E R dot ai. Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curic and I'm Bozma st John and this is back to biz with Katie and Bose Bose. I don't know about you, but I'm super psyched today because Stacy Abrams is such a rock star. And I'm sure you probably agree. Oh yes, I certainly agree. She has that black girl magic. It can't be bottled. Hers is coming out of her ears, out of her toes everywhere. Gosh,

that magic. She's got it. Now, if you guys have heard of Stacy Abrams, who probably know about her historic run for governor of Georgia two years ago in two thousand eighteen, she narrowly lost to Brian Kemp, who was then the Secretary of State. And we'll be talking about that obviously, bows right, and Stacy was the first black woman in the US to win the nomination for governor period. I'm talking first black woman. Did you did you hear me? They did? Okay? Ever in the US like ever? Okay, Well,

I'm just saying she's history making. She was born in Madison, Wisconsin, raised in Gulfport, Mississippi, and her family moved to Atlanta, where both her parents got graduate degrees and became Methodist ministers. So she's also a p K, otherwise known as as Preacher's kid. That's oh, that's a new one for me, Thank you. Bows. Yeah, and I know that her family

really focused on education and it showed with Stacy. She graduated Magnicum Laudie from Spellman and then she got her law degree from Yale, so she's quite the smarty pants. She then served in the Georgia House of Representatives for ten years. She's been an activist her whole life, fighting particularly for voting rights. And she's got a new book out Bows called Our Time Is Now. It's perfect for

this moment and this movement. It's a call to action, to protest, but also to participate and vote during this age of transformational change. That's right, this is perfect And I'm so excited to have her on this show. You know, not only do we share being p k's, but she's also a fellow Trekky prosper baby, you know what. I'm

more of a Picard person. So we'll see where she is. Um, we'll talk to her about her book, about November and about all that has been happening in her home state, from Georgia's primary debacle to the death of Ray Schard Brooks in Atlanta. But first we want to get to know her a little bit, so let's get to it. Okay, So now here's the big question. Of course, are you under the tutelage of Captain Kirk or Captain Picard? The card? See, I knew, I knew it. I knew it all along.

I knew that we were sisters. I knew it. But before you fall too deeply in love, I think that Captain Picard is the archetype of a Star Trek captain. But I think Captain Janeway had the hardest mission and did the best work, you know what. Say, so let

me tell you something. Okay, we we are. I think we're meant to be because the way I'm feeling about Jane Way, I just wish that she had more of an audience, you know, But that could also speak to our issues anyway, exactly right, which is why she she was. I love the card. He will always be the archetype. But look, it's it's it is much harder to be a captain when you are stranded and have to hold your values with no one else holding you accountable. You

know what. This could just start off the entire conversation. Well, except I feel very left out, ladies, because I don't watch Star Trek I will say that. Just think about it this way. In a pantheon of men who get credit for everything, this was a woman who had the heart, was sent away from everything, no resources, and still managed to be just a badass. Yes, tell it. And I feel like everything we need to know about life in

society we could learn on Star Trek. I'm gonna I'm gonna have to start watching it, ladies, so I can be part of this conversation. Welcome you into the cult, Thank you, thank you, Live long and prosper. Right there you go. Earlier I said, may the Force be with you, and Bo said no, no, no, that's Star Wars, completely different universe. Anyway, Well, we want to talk about your universe, Stacy Abrams, because it's so fascinating. We have so much to cover, and we wanted to start with learning a

little more about you as a person. I know that you share a memory in your new book called Our Time Is Now that kind of tells us a lot about what you were like as a child that informed who you became as an adult. And that was when you were six years old and you got into your only schoolyard fight. Wait for it, everyone over the nineteen eighty election between Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan. I love that you got into a fight at six about politics.

Can you take us back to what you were fighting about and what it tells us about who you were as a kid. I grew up in Gulfport, Mississippi, which was one of the more liberal places in the state of Mississippi, but still fairly conservative. I went to elementary school that was integrated, but I tended to end up in classes. My classroom was predominantly white, and there was a young woman in the class who she and I

actually became friends. But she we had this mock election, and she called Jimmy Carter a communist and said that he had destroyed America. And in our family, we grew up watching morning news, we watched evening news like we were steeped in politics. Not in a overwhelming way, but it was what was playing. And when she called him a communist, I told her to take it back. She wouldn't.

I challenged her to defend her accusations. I told her that that Ronald Reagan was a fascist because I heard that terminology used as well, and she threw a book at me. I also, I'm the second of six kids. So I was raised to understand that if you were ever in an you know, in a confrontation, you should use overwhelming force to end it as quickly as possible. She threw a book, I shoved a desk atter. I won harder lost, but you know I stood in my

I just threw in my ground. Wow, you really defended yourself and and were you that sort of committed and passionate throughout your childhood? I was? I mean, I'm not. I am not a high emotion person, but I am very goal oriented. I had four younger siblings and an older sister who was just incredibly kind to all of us. She was three years older than I am. But in our family, we were raised to believe that you're responsible for those who were weak, who are vulnerable, who are

related to you. But we were also raised to have strong opinions, not necessarily to be confrontational, but to believe. And if you believed something, you should know why you believed it. Yeah. Well, you also credit your parents with getting you where you are. Did the lessons that you learned in your upbringing or the insight about your parents that they help you despite all the obstacles that they faced. So my parents when I was growing up, my mom

and dad were both um. They work, They were working people. My mom was a college librarian. My dad was a shipyard worker. My father was dyslexic, and even though he had a college degree and is one of the smartest people I've ever met, because he couldn't read functionally until he was in his thirties, he couldn't get a job in an office. And so this bright man with this incredible mind, because he could not read and interact in the way they expected, he worked in a shipyard, not

really using his mind, more using his strength. My dad really was the first person who taught us about feminism, because he believed that gender did not prescribe or circumscribe what we were capable of. My mom was a college librarian who sometimes made less money than the janitor who cleaned the college, and she was raising six children with

my father. They were always struggling, but they always found time and the impetus to make certain that our world was broader than just the little house we lived in on South Street. And so as a child, what I internalized was this deep commitment to justice, a commitment to engagement. The fact that our circumstances were never going to constrain our capacity and our futures. And when they became ministers I was fifteen. I mean they preached us our whole lives,

but they formalized that when they were forty. And when they became ministers. My parents, who had raised us to believe the education was so critical, instead of simply saying, well, we are we have this calling, they applied to graduate school and at the age of forty were both admitted

to Emory University. Moved us to Georgia because they wanted us to watch them not only meet their calling, but practice what they preached, which is that if you're going to serve others, you've got to know what you're talking about. And even though they had both grown up in the church, they knew they needed their edition of the Seminary to make it stronger and to help them guide their parishioners.

And so what I learned from my family was just this constant live what you say from what my parents did. And I mean they had struggles and challenges, but they never allowed those things to overwhelm them, including poverty, including discrimination. You're listening to back to Biz with Katie and Bows. When we come back, Stacy Abram shares what we can do now to ensure a safe and fair election this November.

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Microsoft Teams, and Google meet. Sign up for free at auto dot ai or download the app for free auto dot ai. That's O T T E R dot Ai. Let's return to our conversation with Stacy Abrams. It's interesting to me that in your book you said thinking back to your election back in that it still made you angry today, by the way, makes me angry to f y,

I makes me angry to right. All of us are angry. Um. And even though you know you must have been livid, uh when and excuse my language because you know we both come from preacher parents, but I'm just gonna have to say it. The ship hit the fan. You know language is important, Okay, exactly? Um? But how how, how how can Georgia be back in this place? Again quite frankly the entire nation, but obviously Georgia where you are. How can it be back in this in this place again,

what do you think happened and what is happening? What happened in was the culmination of almost a decade of voter suppression architecture, and the new Secretary State had no interest in dismantling it. We filed a lawsuit in two thousand and nineteen that articulated almost every one of the challenges that people saw in real time last Tuesday. But part of the issue was that when we told our story,

a lot of folks didn't believe us. They thought that I was just, you know, espousing salary grapes, that I was trying to explain away the result. And as I've always said, I didn't contest the outcome of the election. I could have filed a contest, I could have tried to relitigate it, and I may or may not have been successful. But the point for me in what I didn't concede was to say that it's not about one politician or one race. This is about an infrastructure that's

supposed to serve citizens, and it's not. It is stealing their voices and denying their choices, and that is wrong. But the problem we had was that there were tiny fixes. I think galvanized out of either embarrassment or the lawsuits we filed. But there was no structural determination that what was what was a rye needed to be fixed until it started hurting people other than the folks that wanted

to vote for me. What was so devastating on Tuesday was that it showed the broken machinery of democracy can spread everywhere. It's not just those you target. When you break the machinery, you break it for everyone. And that's why Republicans were standing in long lines. The Speaker of the House, a conservative Republican, He had multiple counties in his district that had to get court orders to extend the lines because of the incompetence and the deliberate indifference

of the Secretary of State. You can't fix a problem you don't acknowledge. We shake our heads at the terrible nous of our elections, We shake our heads at the stories of disentranchisement and voter suppression. But as politicians, we were taught you don't say anything about it, because if you do, you'll depress the turnout and people won't trust

the system. My point is, how can you trust a system that doesn't trust you, that doesn't trust that your citizenship is a sufficient reason for you to be able to participate, which is why my response was not to concede. I conceded the I acknowledge the legal sufficiency, but I will not concede that the system is right. And what I'm proud of is the fact that in this election cycle, every single major candidate for the Democratic nomination talked about

voter suppression, talked about the attacks on our democracy. We didn't simply whisper it in corners, but we called it aloud, and that's allowing people to finally see it's not their fault. Because the last piece I'll say is this voter suppression is the most insidious when it convinces you that you're the problem, that you should have known, you should have done. You were in a long line because you didn't think

about it, or because people are so enthusiastic. No, you're in a long line because people under people in charge, under resourced your precinct and did not value your vote. And that is not right. I still can't get over the fact Brian Kent, your opponent, ultimately declared the winner, was the Secretary of State and in charge of the electoral process. How messed up? Is that I just don't

get it. How can that be? I I gave a talk to a group of foreign ministers UM at an event last year, and when I described what happened, the just look of just people were aghast. They were absolutely stunned. Then the United States, the person who is in charge of the elections got to be the contestant, the referee, and the scorekeeper. It's like Tom Brady being allowed to be the rest at his own super Bowl. He gets

to inflate the bole. I don't maybe don't want to go down that, Maybe don't go into that, but it is it is. It is that grotesque that we would have a system that permitted the person responsible for making sure people could vote, we allowed him to cherry pick who would get to vote. And the reality is even Chris Kobak, who has been cited by federal courts for his aggressive voter suppression, even he had the grace to step down and not oversee his own election, has that

changed at all? I mean, is there any hope that there is going to be some forward movement? My belief is that we have to set a baseline that says, no matter where you live in America. This is the basic guarantee of democracy in our elections. Number one, that you can register and stay on the roles in America,

so automatic registration and then same day registration. We are one of the few industrialized, democratized nations that puts the responsibility on every single person to learn the election laws of the state they move into. I'm a lawyer, I'm a well trained lawyer. You're a Yale lawyer. I have to spend a lot of time writing a book, and I still can't tell you all the rules. And so

we need that baseline. The Heroes Act, which is currently pending before the Senate passed the House bipartisan It says we have to invest three point six billion dollars into making sure our elections happen in November, because states are going to see as we saw in Georgia, as we saw in Pennsylvania, in Maryland, in South Carolina and North and Nevada, we are seeing a massive increase in the

use of absentee ballots because people don't want to die. Uh. The states are hemorrhaging money because of quarantine, because of shelter in place. The federal government's purpose is that it's supposed to be the backstop in the moment of crisis to assist our states and counties and our local elections officials. So give them the money so they can scale the elections.

But the reason this matters is that it also puts in place guardrails that says, at least for the pandemic, everyone who wants to vote by mail can do so you don't have to have an excuse. Alabama, for example, says that you you must either be disabled over sixty five, but having covid being exposed to covid ien is not a valid excuse. The Attorney General and the governor of Texas are fighting tooth and nail to make sure everyone

has to vote in person. And let's not forget that in their February primary they'd shut down more than four hundred precincts, which led to eight our lines in the Democratic presidential primary. The reason they don't want absentee ballots is that they don't want people to vote. And people remember those lines from February, and if they get away with it, you will see the competitive races and Texas suddenly fall into the hands of Republicans because voters are

scared out of voting. M hm, well, speaking of fear, I mean, I'm very nervous about November, and maybe very nervous is putting it lightly. I'm sure given all you said, you might have some fears as well. Um, what are your your concerns about November? So the reason I wrote Our Time Is Now is to articulate the fears, which is that voter suppression is real, it's operational, and its strongest protection is the ignorance of the voter. If you

don't know what you're facing, you can't beat it. And so I wanted to write it down and really explain so that people could understand that it's not you. Voter suppression is the most effective when it convinces us it's not worth five eating, because it's so inevitable that the harm is done. I don't want people to be defeated. I want them to be angry. I want them to be energized. I want them to say, you're not gonna

take my vote for me. I may not want to use it, but it's gonna be my choice, not yours. But my hope is born of the fact that not not only did I write this book, but I launched an organization called Fair Fight that's working in eighteen states, working to make certain that we can guarantee access to the ballot and we can't guarantee it, but we can

mitigate the harm of voter suppression. We can increase the number of volunteers willing to help, we can provide hotlines, we can work in concert with those who are filing

lawsuits to knock down some of these barriers. And so my hopefulness comes from the fact that we now that we know what's happening, Now that we know what the Republicans intend to do with their voter intimidation tactics, Now that we understand that they're going to spend sixty million dollars and raise an army of fifty thousand whole observers to intimidate voters of color. Now that we know that

we can fight back. Because in every other election, we just hope that people would follow the Marquis of Queensbury rules, and if they didn't then we'd sue. We can't wait for the harm to happen. We've got to interfere and interceed now. And I'm proud of the fact that we're part of a national coalition of organizations dedicated to expanding access to the right to vote and protecting it from mayor. You're listening to Back to Biz with Katie and Bows. When we come back, Stacy Abrams on how we can

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You can find jobs with the work life balance and salary you want, plus, build a resume and apply to multiple jobs in just one click. Start your search at career builder dot com. Welcome back to Back to Biz with Katie and Bows. We're talking with Stacey Abram's inspiring activists, politician and author. Let's get back to our conversation. We're talking about voter suppression and the elections and all of this,

but and COVID and all kinds of things. But it's also with the additional stories, uh that continue, I mean, thirty years ago, the Rodney King verdict unleashed you know more unrest, right, I mean you're you're an activist of course, and you protested. Then how are you viewing this moment of our unrest? I I don't call it deja vous, but it is the repeat of history that we've always been warned about. You know, we know the history will repeat itself. The question is what do we do when

it comes again? And what happened in nine two is eerily similar to what's happening today. You had a man who faced recorded and recorded episode of police brutality, and what set off the demonstrations was the exoneration of that officer, the refusal to take action in a way that was meaningful. In fact, it was the tacit acceptance that this black man deserves to be beaten because of something they couldn't have possibly known at that moment when they used their

force to harm him. It was the dehumanization of blackness that we saw play out there, and it's what we see today. But here's the difference in when it happened, we heard lots of chiding, lots of dismissal of the concerns. You had a few promises, but in an election year for president, you did not hear the president the nomin prepare himself and declare that he was going to do something about it. That didn't happen. And I have a great deal of respect for um President Clinton and what

he was able to do. But that was a failure, and that was a missed opportunity that cemented for another generation the legitimacy of that behavior. What we see in this moment is a more instant response, of actual solution building, of actual attempts to address the challenge. And what is even more important is the persistence of those protesters. We protested for a few days, and I was proud of those protests. I was proud of the work I did

through the student organizations I was a part of. I tried to tackle the issue of gang violence, of youth poverty. I did a lot of my work, but I was one person who was at the very bottom of any totem polar power. In fact, I was like the sand underneath it. We got kicked around. But what we see

today is that the protesters are actually driving change. When Donald Trump came out yesterday with his you know, very merely police reform, which basically was He's going to create an Excel spreadsheet to try to solve the problem, even that is a it's an analysis that says I recognize that this is an issue and that I'm going to be held accountable. But what's even more important to me is that Joe Biden has met this moment almost every single day by trying to offer both listening and solutions.

That we have people at every level of government who are engaged and reacting, And that's what's so important, because we can't disconnect this moment from voting. Voting is the medicine we take to cure the disease of systemic racism, of systemic injustice, the police brutality, because we're gonna be electing local officials, mayors who are gonna be hiring these

police chiefs. We're gonna be electing the state legislators who can finally start to mitigate some of these things like the citizen arrest laws that allowed a mod Arebrey to be murdered. And we're gonna be electing senators and congressmen and women who can make the decision that qualified immunity is wrong and for the first time take it back and say that you have to be held accountable, that you cannot murder citizens under the color of saying that

you were just doing your job. Those are things that can happen in this moment that we never had a conversation about before and it all has to do with voting. And you know the sustained crescendo of these protests Stacy had, it's been so powerful, and you're right, people are trying to figure out real solutions. But Joe Biden himself, for example, said he was against defunding police, which I think needs a rebranding. To be honest with you, because defunding, I

think is quite misleading. I think it really means to my understanding and correct me if I'm wrong, Please, is reallocating resources and re examining these huge budgets that go into police departments all over the country. Um, where do

you stand on defunding police, abolishing police, reforming police? So, defund the police is a phrase that is being used by activists as their rally and cry, and as someone who was an activist, I do not feel it is my place to critique the language that they used to describe the urgency, the exigency, and the anguish that they feel. As someone who is in policy making, it's my responsibility to understand the substance of that vision, and I describe

it for myself as reformation and transformation. We have to reform the behaviors and practices that oversee the the distribution of public safety in our society. That doesn't permit Ray Shard Brooks to be murdered because he stole a taser. That is what we need to see. We need no knock warrants to be outlawed so that Brianna Taylor does not that she becomes the last black woman to die in her bed because they didn't have to announce that they had made a mistake. So there's that first piece.

There's the reformation of practices and policies, and then to your point, it is the trans formation of how we fund society, how much money we put into what we call policing versus what we should call public safety, because part of public safety is making the safe, making the public safe to be who they are and to give them opportunity to thrive, and that means investing in education and health care and community diversion programs and community building programs.

It's also about making sure people can bank, because if you're in a black community, you're the least likely to have access to banking. It's making certain that the reallocation of resources speak to our values and that the budget decisions that we make are actually the right ones. And if that means taking some money away from programs that militarize the police and putting those dollars instead and making sure that kids have full and whole education, then I'm

absolutely a fan of that transformation. But what I don't want to see get caught up in is this false dynamic that says that it's one or the other, that you can either reform or you can transform. It is a both and conversation, and it's a both and imperative. Do you think that it might hurt the Democrats at all in the fall if some of these things aren't clearly enumerated and kind of explain. Because I hear you

about not questioning language, but let's face it. You know language can be misleading and people can become misguided, and that's one thing I wonder about. I'm not saying you don't question language. I'm saying I'm not going to question the rallying prize used by the activist because I remind folks that the Tea Party had some fairly strong invective and some fairly outlandish ideas in two thousand ten, and

it worked. They were able to take over Congress. And so this notion, if what galvanizes people to action, what drives them to the polls is the fact that they believe that they could hire people to accomplish their vision. I don't think people care what you call it. They care what you do. And what Democrats have to be willing to do is speak to the policies they are willing to fight for. If they don't like the language that's used to describe but within the activist community, I

I don't. I don't hold them accountable for that. But I do think we have to hold them accountable for the policies they propose and for how they intend to meet this moment. You know what say, See, let me tell you something. Should you be the vice president candidate, I would vote for you. So can we can we talk about that a little bit, because obviously it's it's refreshing to think of you in that role. Can you

give us your pitch for for the job? Well, I want to be clear, you can't pitch for the job of VP. That is Joe Biden's decision. What I've said consistently since March of is that if called, I will answer, and when asked if I'm qualified, I say, absolutely I am, and that's my responsibility. But it's our responsibility to ensure that no matter who he picks, that that person, that

woman is going to be supported in her work. Because the job of the vice president is to be the chief lieutenant to the President of the United States to living out that vision, I believe that we can tackle these challenges. I have a whole section dedicate chapter dedicated to the census, because that's how we get the economic and political power we need and we so often ignore.

I have a whole section dedicated to identity politics because I Am not going to let anyone tell me that my experiences as a black woman do not have relevance and how I make selections about for whom I'm going to vote. And just as we saw yesterday or I think it was two days ago with the Supreme Court decision, identity matters. It tells us who we are and who we can become, and it tells us about the barriers

to success. And the fact that it took till two thousand and twenty for the voting for the Civil Rights Act of nineteen sixty four to acknowledge the sexual orientation and gender identity deserve protection is a perfect example of why identity politics matter. So my belief is that we can win if we fall all of the playbook that says we treat every voter, every American, every person in our country as human having value and worth, and if

we're willing to invest in their success. And that's what I hope the next Vice president will bring to the ticket, and it's why I'm so excited to be a part of the conversation. But I know it's Joe Biden's decision. How important is it to you symbolically, policy wise, taking into account everything that it is a person of color in that role. I've said this before. I think we cannot presume to know what Joe Biden needs as a partner in this campaign or in his administration, because about

the country needs no. No, I'm getting it. He's he's the only person who has held this job, and I trust him to make the decision that's right. I think that having a woman of color as his running mate is an incredibly powerful signal that shows that the face of leadership can can continue to evolve and transform and

include more people. But I do not believe that Joe Biden will take any community for granted, and if his choice is not the choice I would have made, I am not going to disparage that choice because we are making advances in every single moment, including the fact that he is willing to make a woman his vice presidential nominee. But more than that, I want to know what the president of the United States intends to do about my

community and about the issues that matter to me. And that's got to be the fundamental point that I look at. That said, as I said before, I think it's an important signal, and I think it could be a very critical and credible way to talk about the future of our nation. Stacy Abrahams, it's such a pleasure to just have this conversation with you and to hear your point of view so brilliantly stated in every way. Uh, both Bose and I admire you deeply and I can't thank

you enough for for being on our podcast. Thank you so much. Thank you, And as we began, Live Long and prosper thank you, thank you. Yes we will. I'm really glad we had that conversation, and I feel very energized and motivated to do what I can to help get out the vote and make sure that everybody has an opportunity to have their voices heard. Agreed. Agreed couldn't be more of a perfect title. Right, Our time is now. That's right, that's the title of Stacy Abram's new book.

That does it. For this episode of Back to Biz with Kadie and Bows Now, if you're not already, you can subscribe to the podcast on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows and a personal plea for me and Bows, please subscribe to our podcast and you can find more about all the cool people were talking to, as well as our favorite moments from these episodes on our Instagram feeds and stories.

Until next time, I'm Katie Couric and I'm Bozma St. John and this is Back to Biz with Katie and Bows. Thank you all so much for listening. Back to Biz with Katie and Bows is a production of I Heart Radio and Katie Currik Media. The executive producers are Katie Currik, Bozma St John, and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. The associate producers are Derek Clements, Eliza Costas, and Emily Pinto, Editing by Derrek Clements and Lauren Hansen,

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