Back to Biz with Katie and Boz: Judd Apatow

Hate me? Hate me? Do you want to treat? You want to treat? You knew it was time for something new. Let's job it up. At career builder. You can find jobs with the work life balance and salary you want, Plus build a resume and apply to multiple jobs in just one click. Start your search at career builder com. Still living in manually taking notes, there is a better way to start the new year with auto dot ai automatically get meeting notes. Auto dot ai works for virtual

meetings like Zoom, Microsoft Teams, and Google Meet. Sign up on the web for free or download in the app stores auto dot ai. That's O T T E R dot Ai. Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curict and I'm Bomas st John and this is Back to Biz with Katie and Bose Bose. This week, we have a bit of a departure. You know. When you and I decided we wanted to do this podcast together, we were really talking about getting back to biz or how businesses would change

in light of the pandemic. But of course everything has changed because of this huge cultural moment we're witnessing with Black Lives Matter. Yes, that's right, Katie. I mean, right now, we're finding that there are so many narratives being told, not just about the pandemic, but you're right about Black Lives Matter, and about so many things that are concerning us in our society, and so really interesting to talk to someone who is at the center of creating narratives

and stories that we're all paying attention to. Absolutely, and Judd Apatow is just that, a writer, producer, director. He's got a new movie out called The King of Staten Island starring Pete Davidson. It's really semi autobiographical because it's about Pete's own challenges and journey of losing his father. His mom is played by Marissa Tomay, and his little sister is actually played by Judd's daughter maud Right, except

even the little sisters leaving the nest. She set it off to college, and she's leaving her twenties something year old brother behind. You gonna be okay without me here? You don't think I could five here without you? Okay, Just don't be a dick. Okay, it would be nice to mom. Okay, don't give her a hard time. She deserves a break. I always give her a break. When's what am I gonna get my break? Like? What are you talking about? All? Anyone ever does this worry about you?

I was ignored my entire childhood because of you. Yeah, I forgot that my childhood was so dandy. Okay, you don't get that crazy your whole life just because dad died. Okay, at least you've got to know him. Well, you're lucky you didn't get to know him, Okay, because that's why you're almost normal. If you got to know me, would have known that he was like the coolest guy ever, and that wouldn't ruin the rest of your life. Okay,

But what are you gonna do? Or are you gonna get a job, or are you going to leave the house? I don't know I'm gonna open that tattoo restaurant. Well, I don't know if that tattoo restaurant is the real winner. We know about business and that's not it. I don't think so either, right, But there really is so much to unpack in this movie. I mean, it's also dealing with trauma and mental health in a way that feels

really direct and refreshing. I was really impressed with this movie Bows, But of course it was done a while ago, and we'll be talking to jud about the future not only of movie making but movie going. But we want to check in first with the present. How he's doing months into this pandemic hold up at home, one man among many women, his lovely wife Leslie Man, and his nearly grown daughters Iris and Maud. That might have been one of my favorite parts about the whole conversation, how

he got the takeover. So let's start there, old Gramont and Iris. Now, Jud, there are twenty two and seventeen, and that's not the age where you want to hang out with your parents a lot. You know, that's the moment when you leave and you're so happy to get away from your parents. So it's a very weird moment for us all to be stuck together, because now we're

not like a family, We are like weird roommates. Because when you spend this much time together and they're that old, I mean, Iris will be eighteen in October, you can't really even give them advice or tell them what to do. You can't ground them because we're all grounded together. And I think all people were five minutes from doing mushrooms together at this point. Well, the family dynamics are very interesting during these strange times. But we're all lucky and

we're all surviving. And uh, I keep thinking about how fortunate I am because there's so many people who are really really hurting, so jud we have so much ground to cover. You've been so busy, and we're excited to talk to you about your new movie. But first I just want to go back in time quickly, because you were a bit of a late bloomer. You didn't direct your first movie until you were thirty five years old, because you had a hard time convincing studio executives that

your ideas had potential. What was it about your form of comedy or your brand of comedy, Judd that studio had Studio exact same thanks, but no thanks. It's hard to know. I think that you know, for like Freaks and Geek, which was about high school kids, but it was you know, it was the weirdos. It was the potheads and the geeks, and there wasn't a lot of

those on television, especially in the lead roles. Back then, it used to be that everyone was gorgeous and it was like a soap opera and it was very you know, Dawson's Creek style. And someone that wrote an article and they said, well, this is like independent film on television. And at that time, you know, before streaming, before cable, when in that direction we just seemed weird. I mean, freaksing Geeks right now would totally fit in on television.

It might even be corny compared to what everyone is watching at this point. But back then it just seemed very odd to show the problems of teenagers where it didn't get solved, where it was just painful, and then sometimes things would go terribly wrong and then the episode would end and you realize, oh, this is about that.

Sometimes it's just hard, and sometimes you lean on your friends and it doesn't work out and you don't get the girl and you don't get the good position in in sports, and you're kind of humiliated by everyone, and you're just trying to hold it together to survive high school. And so I think some of the ideas I like that maybe they were they were so truthful that the culture wasn't doing a lot of that at the time.

But then suddenly with everything that HBO was doing and uh whatever, all the all the shows, what what the Sopranos did and Leana done him? Did it? The culture changed. You have a new movie, The King of Staten Island, and it had to be released on demand instead of in theaters for obvious reasons, as we've been discussing, but you also said that you feel this movie somehow was destined to be seen right now. Why why is that?

Why does it need to be seen right now? I think the movie is about, uh, you know, a family struggle to get over the death of the father who was a firefighter and in real life, Pete Davidson's father lost his life in nine eleven. In the movie, it's you know, it's a fabricated situation, but it's about a family who's frozen in their grief. They haven't really moved

forward the way they should, in a healthy way. And only when Pete's character's mother starts dating another fireman played by Bill Burr his mom's played by Maarissa Tomay, does it force them to confront everything that has held them back, all the trauma that's prevented them from moving forward. And I felt like the movie is about sudden loss, it's about grief, it's about the ways it can impede our lives, and it's also about firefighters and heroes and nurses and

first responders. So when I was asked, you know when you put it out on video on demand now versus releasing it in a year, I thought, well, this is kind of the subject that we're all dealing with. How do we deal with change and loss and grief and how do people come together and help each other and heal? So maybe it's supposed to come out right now. It felt weird to hold onto it to say that's his way to year so it can be in theaters, Like, why do I need it in theaters? Is that an

ego trip for me? Is because I need the experience of the of the audience, or did I make the movie to make people happy to help them go through something emotionally that I think might be helpful. And then I thought, maybe it's supposed to come out now, maybe that's what it was destined to do. Yeah, but you're right. I feel like movies content in general is sort of a therapy, right. This probably brought up a lot of difficult, unresolved issues for Pete. Did you find that did Did

it bring up anything even for yourself? It definitely did for for all of us. In terms of Pete, we sat around for years talking NonStop about how it felt to, you know, to lose a parent, and to lose a parent at seven when you don't even really understand what's going on. And then there's this added dimension, which is your father dies in nine eleven, and the entire world is talking about nine eleven for the rest of your life.

It doesn't really go away. And so I would what I would say to Pete is, you know, my mother died of cancer in two thousand and eight, and it was very traumatic, and how it happened was very traumatic, but no one talks about it. So I can go years and no one will mention my mother other than my sister, and and so in some ways it gives me some separation. It allows me to heal, It allows me to develop, you know, this life after losing her.

For him, people talk to him about it every day of his life, multiple times a day, and it's connected to their grief and their loss, and so in a way, he's he's in a groundhog Day loop about it, and he has his own private grief. He just misses his dad. I mean, at the core of it, he just misses his dad. He and he missed out on a relationship that he really grieves for. How we don't really talk about it much fun Yeah I missed it. Oh yeah, let me too. And uh, I'm sorry that I been

so difficult to deal with. I'll try and get it together. I'm just sorry, I think it. I mean, I talked a lot with Pete about how when he was a kid he was having a lot of mental health struggles and he used to listen to kids and Kid Cutty had all this amazing music about his anxiety and depression. And Pete said, that really got me through it. And in the last few years, a lot of what we've

been working on is content about mental health. And Pete wanted to make a movie that was about his story, so that if you were home depressed or suicidal or had anxiety, you might watch this movie and relate to Pete and and see some hope in how he got better. Well, I think it's just so remarkable that, um, we can use art in this way to find healing, you know, for a number of different things that happen in our lives.

But I also think it's remarkable that you're able to sort of nurture that kind of storytelling, you know, and with talent that sometimes maybe would get lost otherwise. Um, and we know that you certainly mentored a lot of young talent and provided vehicles for people like Amy Schumer and Kristin Wigg and Seth Rogan. What is it that you see in town like that you know in their in their own storytelling, or how to nurture that type

of vulnerability? I mean, I think that clearly through Gary Shandon, who I worked with the Larry Sander Show, I learned a lot about mining your life for your art. And I think as a fan of music, I always was drawn to people who would tell stories that were clearly from their lives. It could be James Taylor, could be the Beatles, you love those songs that you knew were real. I think as a kid that was very important to me.

And then I think Richard Tryer in a way taught me, oh, you would just work it out on stage like he just told He told the stories of his life. Here's the things I've done, here's the thing things I've done which are terrible, Here's the mistakes I've made, Here's what I've learned. And there were a lot of artists like that, Nirvana, just just all these people where you thought, oh, they're not kidding, They're really showing you the raw, real stuff.

And I learned with Gary that you could take your life as the raw materials for storytelling, and they blur the line. Some of it's totally made up, some of it is actually very close to the truth. And a writer's room at a TV show, everyone tells their stories. And then that led to me writing Knocked Up and Fortyal Virgin and um Photo Virgin with Steve and this is forty. And then I started trying to mind my stuff, which is always a combination of made up and and

true things that you're thinking about. And then when I met Pete, I mean, that was as close to the bone as you can get. But he was as brave as anyone I've ever met in terms of I'm willing to go all the way, Jedd, There's no aspect of this that I'm going to hold back. Most people hold back something like no, I can't go that far, that's too darker, that that will make me look weird. And Pete's like, let's just show all of them when we

come back. Jed Apatel on how to make colle at a more diverse, welcoming place for all storytellers, whether your event needed one room or an entire conference center, hoppin has revolutionized the way people come together. With hoppin, you can host a fully fledged digital meet up, complete with one on one meetings, hands on sessions, and expo booths.

And because everything is hosted in a single, easy to use platform, it can be as big or small as you want, remain convenient for anyone who wants to attend, and give you access to data you never would have known otherwise. Visit hoppin dot com to learn more and get started. Here's another podcast you should add to your listen list. All Worth Financials Money Matters every week host Scott Hansen and Pat McLean answer calls about investing, social

Security benefits and retirement with straight talk. That's straight up entertaining everyone worried, well I have enough to retire. That's why thousands have called into All Worth Money Matters for advice on their financial future and found the smart next steps to keep their retirement plan on track. There's a reason Money Matters is one of the longest running financial

talk shows in the country. It's Scott and Pat's entertaining experience knowledge, whether it's how to deal with tomorrow's inflation or the big costs of healthcare in retirement. They've got action steps you can start taking every episode to ensure you reach your financial goals. Do your retirement a favor and add these guys to your production playlist. You'll find

all worse Money Matters everywhere there are. Podcasts provide personalized assessments of the key areas you need to consider and master, deliver next steps to take action and keep your retirement plan on track. The moment you realized you were mistaking your kids for co workers, okay, team, I'm taking my fifteen now. What was the moment you knew it was

time to get back to work. Let's drop it up at career Builder are simple, customizable search tool lets you search for part time, full time, and even work from home jobs so you can find a job that fits your lifestyle. Get started now at career builder dot com. You're listening to Back to Biz with Katie and Bows and we're talking with Judd Apatow, who as I'm sure you're aware, a comedy powerhouse in Hollywood, but what about

the responsibility that comes with that power. Here we are in a moment of national reckoning on race, so we wanted to explore what leaders like Judd can do to be the change that we want Hollywood to be. And it's interesting because Judd has actually faced criticism about the lack of diversity in his own work, So we started there asking him where his head was at with all of this and what he can do to better elevate black stories. You know, Yeah, it's and it's an ever

evolving thing. You know, for me, princes with freaks and geeks. When I went to high school, there was one black person in thirteen years of high school on Long Island where I grew up. So if I did a high school show, and I said, well, let's make that you can do that, and I think in this era you would do that. But at the time, we just wrote about what our high schools looked like and that was not that uh, and maybe that was completely wrong at the time, but you know, we came from places that

we're not diverse. Then when I worked with Lena Dunham on Girls, at the time, there weren't shows with female showrunners who were the lead and the producer and the director. And that became something that I think really was a game changer for women running their shows. And it led to shows like Fleabag and all these other programs where women could create a show for themselves and start it

and direct it and produce it. And then some people were like, well, that should be more diverse, and you're like, okay, I I can see that that we need to keep broadening it. We're all figuring out like, well, what is truthful?

How would you do it? And what I feel like the solution to it is it's like what we did with The Big Sick, which is I met fremail nine Johnny and Emily Gordon, and they wanted to write this story about how they met, and a lot of it was about, you know, a family of people from Pakistan and their experience in America and how their family worked. And I'll tell you, no one wants it to make it. You know, it doesn't matter how successful I've been, I

couldn't sell that script. Uh and Emily and Kamil had an amazing story and they're brilliant, and Camail is an incredible actor and he's on television. No One, So we just developed it for years for free. No one paid them. And then we got film Nation to give us five million dollars to make the movie. Right, So we get

five million dollars to make the movie. Now, normally my movies cost about thirty million dollars, So right there, you can say there's almost a systemic racism in the budget, right because there's a belief that no one will want to see a kid from Pakistan as the lead in a comedy in America. So the movie gets made. Film Nation stands behind us and gives it. They give us the money. They're great, but none of the studios did

We show it at Sundance. It's a big hit. They sell it for a lot of money to Amazon and then lions Gate distributes it, and now you've got the corporations behind it because we've proven it's good, and then it makes a ton of money, right, it makes a ton of money, and it basically becomes an example that the racism which makes it hard to make this movie is all bullshit. It's completely unfair and it's not even accurate to what the audience wants. The audience wanted that movie.

There's no reason why it should have been a five million dollar movie. It's could have been a thirty million dollar movie. And and that's how I've learned to deal with this, which is, can I give opportunities to diverse people to tell their stories and maybe I could use my wisdom to help them, And you know, that seems to be the best way forward. And the truth is, and you you always sound lame saying it. I can't tell you how many projects I've tried to make that

didn't work, where we couldn't get the script right. You know, I did a pilot with Kevin Hart in two thousand and two. I was like the first guy to go. I think Kevin Hart's gonna be the biggest start in the world. And it took a long time after that for him to figure it out. But we were on that on that train from day one, like he was on undeclared he's in the four ye Old Virgin. But I personally was never good enough to crack the script

to help Kevin make it. You know, he did that in his own work that had nothing to do with me. And so we try and sometimes we we just fail. Also, I think the brilliant thing, um that you just said was about even the example of your high school, right, and that if you were to write something about your high school experience, you would write about this big class with this one kid in it. And that is the that is the middle of the issue, right. It's not

so much about having white people right black stories. It's about having black people right black stories, diversifying the storytelling. And so I think it's it's really quite important, and there's a responsibility of those who have the door open to find ways to extend it so that our storytelling can become more diverse too, because I also think it's about systemic racism, like why is Judd going to a school or me for that matter, where there's like a

handful of black kids in the entire school. But I think that's a reflection of you know, so many issues that created this de facto segregation that Judd and I and Bose you to a certain extent too, even though you're a little younger than we are, and well I'm the old one of the group. We're all about ten years apart um. But I think it's it's a reflection of what was happening in society when jud and I

were growing up. But one thing I wanted to ask you, Judd, to to build on something you said, why are these network executives or these studio executives so clueless? I think, what's so interesting? You said, they weren't reflecting what the audience wanted, right, you know, so they're saying no, and yet the audience is saying yes. So why is there such a disconnect? Is it because of the people who hold these positions of power to green light a project.

I think that there's a lot of theories that are just wrong, and it's not. It's it's about every aspect of diversity. When we made Bridesmaids, I didn't think we were doing anything to help women. I mean, I grew up on Gilder Radner and Tody Fields and Lucy Ball. There was never any part of me that thought that men were funnier than women. If anything, I think that my greatest heroes were women. So I just wanted to make a movie with Kristin Wig. I didn't think that

this was symbolic. I didn't think it was about helping women prove they could be, you know, the leads of movies or female driven comedies. I just thought christ And Wiggs a genius. Let's make a movie with her. And then people started saying, you know, if the movie does well, maybe it'll help the studios realized they should make more movies with female comedic leads. I never thought of it as a test case, and then it turned out it did very well, and it did lead to a bunch

of other movies happening for different people. But that was a theory, like the studios were not pursuing women to be the leads of comedies in the way they should have. It would happen here and there, but you know, they'd be a Goldie Hawn movie, or you know, every once in a while someone would get a shot. But it was still way less than man. And so for me, I've just tried to be more aware of it. I

like being in terrain where no one is. So one of the reasons why I do certain things, that's just because, oh this this community isn't getting a movie. It's fun to try to make a great one because it's not something that everyone has burnt out. But I realized I just need partners. I need to partner up with with these people. And we have a lot of projects that we hope get done. We're doing a gay romantic comedy with Billy Eichner, and there hasn't been a big studio

romantic comedy like that. It's it's if it's been done. It's been done maybe once or twice ever. But he's got the big budget. He doesn't have the big sick budget. He's got the real budget from Universal Studios, and he wrote a hysterical script and it's And the truth is, it's kind of sad that it's a big deal to get it. It's very sad. But that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to tell great stories and partner up with people that we believe in, and hopefully that's

the way we could make a big difference. We're going to take a short break, but when we come back, Jed tells us how he thinks the pandemic will change the movie industry. Perhaps were good still living in manually taking notes. Start the new year with auto dot ai to generate automatic notes for meetings, interviews, or lectures. With auto dot ai, you can search the meeting notes, insert images, playback the audio, and share them with your friends or coworkers.

You can capture action items, remember meeting details, and keep everyone informed. Auto dot ai works for in person or virtual meetings like Zoom, Microsoft Teams, and Google meet. Sign up for free at auto dot ai or download the app for free auto dot ai. That's O T T E R dot ai. That time you got home from a week of double shifts and your dog didn't recognize you. He hates me? Hates me? Do you want to treat? You? Want to treat? You knew it was time for something new.

Let's drop it up at career builder. You can find jobs with the work life balance and salary you want, plus build a resume and apply to multiple jobs in just one click. Start your search at career builder dot com.

You're listening to Back to Biz with Katie and Bows and as we wrap up with Judd Apataw, we asked him about the future of moviemaking, and if he's going to be one of the people dipping his toe back into filming in the middle of a pandemic, I know, I'm very scared, and I will be among the last people to say let's go, because I I really would

never want to put anyone in danger. I know when when this time passes and things are safe, everyone will run back to the movie theaters, just like they're trying to run back to everything now before they should. But there's going to be a very painful pause for the industry. A lot of movie theaters are closing though. I mean, some people say saying this is just accelerating a trend that we were already witnessing, and and that is kind of the demise of movie theaters, which would really make

me sad. But do you think that movie watching is going to come back? I do. I do, because people might just miss it. They can come back bigger because people are tired of being in their homes binging, and maybe it will make them appreciate the experience. I think it will always be there. The question is what will we make for the theater and what will we make for home viewing? So everyone wants to see spectacle, right, we want to see explosions and superheroes in a movie theater.

People aren't really going to the theater to see what used to be the mid price drama. You don't see the studios spending million dollars on a drama the way they used to make a Meryl Street movie. Uh, there's less of that happening. It's still happening, it's but it's kind of lower budgeted and going straight to streaming a fair amount of the time. And so I think what's

going to change is what goes in the theater. And it's hard to know, you know, what to make of that, because they're making some great movies that are meant for streaming, and maybe an independent filmmaker that used to make a movie for two million dollars in a theater might get ten million dollars to make it for Netflix, and so there's all sorts of trade offs. Yeah, well, we're seeing good Lord, we're seeing a lot of drama in our in our regular lives, right, not even in the theater.

And clearly the election is oooming. Lord help us, all um. We just had this great conversation with Stacy Abrahams last week, who is just so impressive. I I really admire her um and I know that you share her concern about voter suppression in this country. What initially sparked your activism around this issue in particular, I mean generally, My act activism was set off by the fact that when Donald

Trump started birtherism, I was just really disgusted. I wrote some jokes for the President for the Correspondence dinner that made fun of Trump. Now, I know that he's taken some flat lately, but no one is happier. No one is prouder to put this birth certificate matter to rest than the Donalds. And that's because he can finally get back to focusing on the issues that matter, like we fake the moon landing? What really happened in Roswell? And

where are Biggie and Tupac. The reason why some of those jokes were harsh was because I was so annoyed and scared about his looming presence, and I even said to everybody, I think we should go harder at him. And this is a real destructive force in our country. And my worst nightmares have come true about what could happen, And I think the only way he stays in office

is through voter suppression. That's the only way he does it is by setting up rules and working with local, uh you know, state governments to make it harder for people to vote in areas where he might not you know, be in favor. And that is something that is going to be handled in the courts. Obviously, I've always supported the A C l U because they do a lot of work fighting voter suppression. He's already saying that voting by mail will be filled with fraud when there is

no fraud at all. There's no history of it. But that's why Stacy pointed out Judd Stacy pointed out that there is very little voter fraud and that is so misleading, and that's what they always fall back on when it comes to making voting more accessible to more people. Well, also, I don't know if people talk about it enough. When Donald Trump ran to president in two thousand and sixteen, he was saying it was rigged before he won. So this is his playbook, which is to set him itself

up to always win. Even when he loses. He says it's unfair before it happens. They should pull out all the clips of him saying this in two thousand and sixteen, and it's happening while he's colluding with Russia. It's happening while he's doing all sorts of things which are unethical or illegal. So he sets himself up to have a

grievance and to get people worked up. And then he's putting a lot of judges and he hopes that he could say the elections unfair and then maybe the Supreme Court supports some bizarre ruling that keeps him in office, or maybe there has to be a second election. And you know, it sounds crazy, but there are people on that court that are going to support anything that he says. And luckily, but we saw what happened with daka Uh.

You know this week he's not winning everything at the Supreme Court, but he's certainly gambling on it with this election. I would assume. I mean, you're in such a great position, judge. You have so much influence and power in Hollywood, and I'm curious how you plan to use it or what you're what you're thinking about and looking at in terms of projects right now, in terms of you know, my company,

where we do a lot of development. I feel good because we were in this mindset for a while, you know, we we we have been looking to do diverse projects. We've been looking to do things which are more political. I feel like in all areas. It's not just you know, it's diversity of thought as well. There are so many things that we don't talk about, and when we do talk about it and people feel seen and less alone, it really helps them in their lives and inspires them

in so many ways. So I hope that that's what comes of this this time. And kindness. You know, we need more kindness. We need to lift each other up and take care of each other and make that our our focus. That was Judd Apataw and his latest movie is The King of Staten Island available on demand. That does it. For this episode of Back to Biz with Katie and Bows and you know what's crazy, we're nearly at the halfway mark of this series. So are you having fun doing this? Bo No, I'm not. This is

a lot of pressure. Well, you're doing a great job and I love having you as my partner. Well, thank you, Katie. No, I really I do love you and I'm having a blast. And of course, I mean we've been so inspired and I've been so inspired by our guests t D. Jake's Opal to, Matty, Mary Barro, Stacy Abrams. I mean, come on, Stacy Abrams, all of these goals. I mean, it's just been awesome. I know, we've been really lucky that we've gotten so many people to talk with us, especially during

this critically important time really in our nation's history. But we want to hear from you, dear listeners, So let us know what you think of our conversations and who you'd like us to speak with on one of these podcasts. You can leave a voicemail for back to Biz at eight four four or seven nine seven eight eight three. That's eight four four or seven nine seven eight eight three, or you can email us at info at Katie correct dot com. Just put back to Biz in the subject line.

And you can also go straight to Apple Podcasts and leave us a review. Katie, you know what, we already have one review. Really, Oh gosh, I hope it's nice. Bows, It's it's all right, it's good, it's good. Don't worry. In the meantime, keep up with the show on Apple podcast the I Heart Radio Apple, wherever you listen to your favorite shows and don't forget to follow us on social media, where you'll find clips of our favorite moments

from the interviews until next time. I'm Bozema St. John and I'm Katie Curic and this is Back to Biz with Katie and Bows. Thanks so much for listening, guys. Back to Biz with Katie and Bows is a production of I Heart Radio and Katie Currik Media. The executive producers are Katie Current, Bozema St. John, and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. The associate producers are Derrek Clements, Eliza Costas, and Emily Pinto. Editing by Derrek

Clements and Lauren Hansen, Mixing by Derek Klemon. It's special thanks to Adriana Fasio. For more information about today's episode, go to Katie Kirk dot com. You can also follow Katie Kirk and Bosmas St John on Twitter and Instagram. For more podcasts for My Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. My name is Hannah, I'm Dan, I'm Ben,

and we are Group Love. If you're dealing with stress or anxiety, or just need some help, cal Hope is here for all Californians with free mental health resources to help you navigate this uncertain time. Go to cal hope dot org to live chat with one of their incredible listeners, or call their warmline at one eight three three three one seven Hope. That's one eight three three three one seven h O P. E. Hope lives here in California.