Amanda Seyfried on becoming the unknowable Elizabeth Holmes

we crashed about We Work founder Adam Newman. What do you think when I say to the dropout about Thereinos founder Elizabeth Holmes? The world works in certain ways until a new, great idea comes along and changes everything. We just can't seem to look away from the heart pounding rise and the inevitable gut punching fall of these brilliant, young, white, mostly male, and very rich moguls. For me, it's all about Elizabeth Holmes. She fascinates me. The voice, the look,

the burning ambition. A healthcare pioneer is being compared to visionaries like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. She is the youngest person to ever get the Horatio Alger Award. Every time you create something new, there should be questions and to me, that's a sign that you've actually done something that it's transformatives in At just thirty years old, Elizabeth was one of the youngest self made billionaires thanks to

her blood testing technology and her biotech startup Paraus. By January, Elizabeth was found guilty on four out of eleven federal charges. After seven full days of deliberations, the verdicts are in. Elizabeth Holmes has been found guilty in this fraud trial. Guilty of conspiracy to defraud Paras investors, not guilty of conspiracy to defraud the patients. So at one time she was compared to Steve Jobs, and now she's a convicted felon who was facing up to twenty years behind bars.

She'll be sentenced this fall. But even after a four month trial in which Elizabeth herself took the stand, it's still not clear how this woman was such promise, fell from grace and massive success in such dramatic fashion. Today we find out what it was like to become Elizabeth, to embody that enigma. I'm talking to the star of the new Hulu series The Dropout, Amanda Cipher. It you have to do it. I mean this podcast for crying

out loud so you have to do it. Well, um, it's really hard to get down, but it's actually easier is to do the accent, which is it's really just an effect, but it's just really the way her mouth moves. The thirty six year old after is a familiar face, having worked in the movie business since she was fifteen, after a decade of coasting through silly but beloved comedies from Mean Girls, So here from Africa. Why are you white? Oh my god, Karen, you can't just ask people why

they're white? To Mama Mia, honey, honey, how he thrills me? Amanda has become somewhat of a dramatic dark horse, wowing critics and David Fincher's film Bank My Exit, what I already made My exit and now transforming into Elizabeth Holmes for the dropout. Here at theirs, we are developing new technology. Here at theres new You're developing new technology. New technology is inspiring. Step forward, forward, forward forward, This is inspiring, step forward, and she does it all outside of the

Hollywood spotlight. We should explain, by the way, where you are right now, where we're doing this podcast. Yeah, so we are thousands of miles apart um I am upstate at my main residence before I have to go back into the grind of the city, New York City, which is two hours away, And um, I do as much

as I can from here. Why not? Why not? And did you guys sort of take up residence there during the pandemic or were you always pretty much living most of your life for as much as possibly you possibly could there that this was way before the pandemic, We just, um, we happened to already live full time, and um, my daughter already was in school up here, so it was it was kind of a everybody seemed to join us during the pandemic, so our life was already kind of settled,

so we didn't. It's not like we missed anything when we didn't move up here during the pandemic and missed the city. I never missed the city. Are you you're a country girl, Yeah, but I was a suberb I grew up in suburbia. I don't know. I don't know what it is. I think it's just control over a space maybe that I didn't have growing up. I am

so loving this show. You do such a phenomenal job of of actually occupying Elizabeth Holmes body and her psyche um and I know that you consumed everything that was out there about this woman. Tell me first how you prepared for the role. I started studying those deposition tapes, because when you have that many hours of footage of somebody's static with on camera just staring at them, you don't miss a thing. I mean, we have all that footage. When she's doing her ted talk, I believe the individual

is the answer to the challenges of healthcare. And when she's on stage with Maria Schriber for the Vanity fair thing, are you a disruptor? Are you a transformer? Revolutionary? When it comes to healthcare? We have a vision and a dream for early detection and prevention, and we want to change our system in such a way in which early detection and prevention can become reality. There's just so many interviews, but there's something so like rich in those deposition hours

that you couldn't get in her performative presence. For you the decision maker on behalf of fairness? And did you sign the Walgreens contract or the amendment? I did. I signed many of the Walgreens rooms. I don't know if I signed all of them. Time and yes, I mean I'm I'm the CEO and the ultimate decision maker for the company. Well, let's get back to Elizabeth, because I was wondering, Amanda with the deposition tapes, if you saw a different Elizabeth Holmes, as you said, it wasn't as

performative as you know she was in most arenas. But I really enjoyed watching you acting as her during the deposition without the red lipstick, kind of much more vulnerable. But tell me about the differences between how she appeared there versus so many of the other things that you watched. There's an innate defensiveness when you're being questioned, when you're um choices are being questioned. And I still feel like there was a part of her that might have been

playing a part. I tried to imagine myself in that position, and I'm always my my first pogative is to make sure that people feel comfortable with me, and that I'm not making anyone uncomfortable. And I'll tell the truth, and I'll say everything. I I'll give all the information that

I can give. And I wondered what I'd be like in that position, and and and so I thought, you know, I could be totally wrong because I'm not in her head and I never got to speak to her about this, but I do feel like there were levels of there was still some maneuvering she was doing. I mean, she was still negotiating her way around the questions and and it's also a legal environment. I mean, she's got her lawyers and she's got these prosecutors, and I just imagine

it was just really tricky for her. So watching her negotiate her way around the questions and her own whatever she might have been feeling, and the defensiveness that comes along with it for anybody, It's just like it was just rich and uncomfortable, and there was just so many hours worth that I could just soak get in every day watching something new. I mean I can practically quote it because I had two and a half months too,

you know, prepare. And during the deposition, did she cast aside some of these affectations that she adopted in order to move in the world that she was trying to be successful? In other words, did did her voice uh you know, did it change a little bit? And was it less um kind of BARITONEI ish when she was doing the deposition. Oh, that isn't really good. It's a real feat to get that low for me, Like, I don't like you have a pretty like average sitting like females.

I mean, I guess you could go either way, like you're pretty, I have a pretty I think I have a I don't know. I think I have a pretty low voice. I guess, I guess maybe maybe I would love to know what your measurement is. There's a measurement, and I don't remember if it's like frequency desciples. I

don't know what it is. But someone told me at a body language expert told me that Elizabeth her what her deepest she was at like a one eighties something, and I sit at a two thirty three, and apparently like two thirty is an average female where average female voice sits. And at her lowest she was one eighty. But I think for the deposition, so I think she was already I imagine, like muscle memory, I was speaking more like her. I'm better at it now because I

did it for so long. It's muscle memory. And I think for her she adapted. I think she adapted to that lower register and it was more natural for her than it is for me. So I think during the Deposition era that's like two thousand seventeen. She was already she had already adopted that that baritone that I don't think she's ever gonna be rid of. I can't imagine. But she didn't put in terms of body language, she was much less commanding. I mean, she wasn't she wasn't

trying to change anyone's mind. She was there was a some moments feebleness to her and vulnerability, like you said, like and and and it was also really uh, it was also easier to relate to her and to feel compassion for her in that setting, um, because she does seem like she's like kind of stripped of all that and you know that the charisma was all just go on.

I actually met with her when I dropped my daughter off at Stanford, and it was sort of at the height of her celebrity status, when she was on the cover of so many magazines. And when I went to visit her in Palo Alto. I went to her office and she sat in a in a room with me, and she got tears in her eyes when she told

me how she need to help people with cancer. Of course, I think she knew that my husband had died of cancer, and I've done so much cancer advocacy work, but she seemed to care so deeply, and maybe again that was performative for me. But UM, you know she actually I thought she was going to start crying and it kind of made me get kind of teary. And so do you think that was real well or do you think that was just playing to an audience? Yet again, I don't know. I want to believe. I just always want

to believe the good no matter what. Um, much like she wanted to believe that it was the tech was working. UM, I want to believe that she was there with you, But I am skeptical because you know, she's powerful. She's powerful and she knows it. She's very smart. She's really really smart. It's amazing. UM. I don't know. I have to ask you about the voice. M you got rid of that pretty quickly, but you have to do it. I mean this podcast, we're crying out loud, so you

have to do it. Well. UM, it's really hard to get down. But it's more it's it's actually easier is to do the accent, which is it's really just an effect, but it's just really the way her mouth moves and it's hard to get back down there. Um, I had a better time. I had an easier time doing it after when I was doing a d R, after I had COVID for the second time after Christmas, I was coughing so much. Then my register was actually much deeper,

even though it's not great for my vocal cords. It was like it was really low, like I can't even get there right now. But but it's it's mainly about the placement more and which you know you talk. But then again, like I'm thinking of you sitting in rooms with her, which I never got to do. I would have loved to. I would have connected with her. I know I would have. I mean it. It would have been hard not to, and I I'm so glad I didn't because I don't think I would have been able

to play her. I would have felt bad. Well, let's talk about her, because how much license did the writer take in terms of her relationship with Sunny, the way she interacted with her employees, Um, how much about did they have to create to fill in the blank spaces? Well, the blank spaces were all very for us. Just when she's alone, when she's making these decisions, when she's developing the voice like that's all just imagined reality Liz Meriweather's genius,

sparking brain. Um, we enriched so much of the Sunny Elizabeth relationship because I will say it wasn't until halfway through we were filming that we got the dump of text messages between them, and thank god they said what they did, because we were already on that path. Like their relationship was um very uh confusing to people and kind of fascinating because you knew they were they were tight. You knew they had a very special bond um and

nobody really understood it. So we tried to understand it. So that's all imagined. Um. But in terms of the goal person, posts were really were set. I mean there were lots of conversations that were really truly had the way she spoke to her employees, her engineers, that that was true. It's it's more truthful than um that I that I wanted to be and and there were moments where I was just like, I can't believe this was said out loud, um, like what behave this way? Like

the way she fired Ian. He was the chief chemist. For people who haven't watched the series yet, he was the chief chemist Um he's also a cancer patient at the time, devoted to what Elizabeth was trying to do. The first engineer on the ground with her really believed in her. The the things she had said to Anna Aariola and Ave Tavanian, who were worked with apples, she took them, they were on her board, they were helping her out, and the things that she said to them

about the technology. It was hard to play certain things because I knew how real they were, and I didn't want to stop believing in her because as an actor, when you when you play somebody that you might not agree with, you still have to find the humanity. And that's the whole point of the show, really to show the humanity but not condoned. Anything she did was tricky, but sadly it's mostly true. More with Amanda right after this,

what is your assessment, Amanda, of Elizabeth Holmes? I mean, if someone said, who is Elizabeth Holmes in your view and you know what is she all about? What would you say? I would say, Elizabeth Holmes is an incredibly smart, incredibly passionate woman who it was in over her head. I think she you know, her belief led her down. This path. You know, she she became very powerful because she really believed in something and she was trying to

make it work. And I think that, um, she just ended up making the wrong decisions halfway down the road. I think there's definitely there's as incorrect and correct ways clear black and white at this point, at the point where I'm talking about the fork in the road, and she took the wrong way and and she doubled down.

And I don't know if that's because she believed that it was still gonna work and she wanted she would do it at any get it done at any cost, with you know, lives and then in the balance and lies or she just you know, says we don't have it, give me some time, and and you know, I I feel like a lot of people would be like, why didn't you just say you didn't have it? And I can't say what I would I can say what I would have done, but it probably would have been harder

at that point that she was at. I really believe she had the best of intentions and do do And with this show, it gives us a lot of context, like maybe these things really did happen. She wasn't great socially. She her dad lost his job at Enron, which is huge for their family. I mean, she claims she was actually assaulted in college. I mean that's not an excuse, but that can really that can traumatize somebody in ways

that make it harder to to function. And the very least and where I stand now with hers that like she really she really had the best intentions, and she made the wrong decision and she made choices that I I wish she hadn't for the sake of a lot of people. I mean, just being irresponsible with health health care.

It's just you can't. And if this is a if this is a lesson, like a cautionary tale for anybody who wants to, you know, take the shortcut developing health care technology thing again like science, That's why I love in this show. What is episode three or I think episode four, Elizabeth says to Ian, her head engineer, where she's firing him. She says, um, you don't understand the business, and he says, you don't understand the science. And it's

just like there, it isn't a nutshell. She didn't understand the science. But I also think when you look at the origin story of theopness, which I think the series does really well. You know, it's not as if, at least how it's portrayed. It's not as if she came up with this idea and said, you know, the blood industry needs to be disrupted, we need to have a better way, We need to make it easier to diagnose the whole host of diseases. It's almost as if it

was the means to an end. You know, she wanted to be this hugely successful entrepreneur. It seems like she retrofitted this desire to be of female Steve jobs, perhaps because her father had lost her job, perhaps because you know, she was looking to find her place in the world. But the idea didn't come first. The goal came first. It's so funny. I never looked at it that way, but it is exactly how we are we're telling the

story as well. It's just like, yeah, it came she was looking for the next idea, and for whatever reason, it was going to be in healthcare because she was really into micro fluid I. She was taking course she you know, she was still in school, and we actually show our version of her life. We show her studying and trying to come up the next idea. And and it is true that she came up with a blood with a patch that would um dispense a lot of

like medicines to make it easier to get medicine. And it and it, and it wasn't like Phyllis Gardner at Stanford said, it's not actually possible. Try something else. And she she kept trying, and she found something else that was totally viable. Um, maybe not right now still, but I think she was inspired by somebody changing the world. And Liz Meryweather wrote a line in the first episode where she's telling William H. Macy's character Richard that she

just wants to be a billionaire someday. And and and it is interesting that like that did that gold did come first? It did. How was Elizabeth Holmes able to convince, persuade, manipulate super intelligent, experienced people like George Schultz and Henry Kissinger and General Maddis to invest in her company? I mean that to me is just astounding. You know, it was interesting to watch George Schault's played by Sam Waterston,

you know, just get all googly eyed around her. You know, she clearly bamboozled him by you know, thank you for sharing that story with me. Um that that was really profound or whatever she said to him, you know, and and to see him sort of fall for her. Ah. But it was weird because it was not over sexuality. I don't know what it was what how did how did she do it? And why why did they do it? I'm still I don't think I'll ever understand that. I feel like there's got to be a level of fomo. Yeah,

you know, they're they're they're they're so much older. They're not in the tech world like she All of her investors weren't tech investors. They weren't Silicon Valley investors. Nobody, no VC wanted to go with her because they know better. Um. And it's because it's because health care is really hard. I mean when she says Mark Zuckerberg said move fast

and break things. Yeah, that that totally um works when you're in the tech but not but io tech, I mean, like not human human beings like health She was using certain templates in the wrong places. In her template. It was get a lot of very powerful people in government to to invest, and then the rest will follow. And that's exactly what happened. I mean that's another thing, you know. I was I was watching. UM. Michael Showalter directed the

first four episodes of The Dropout. He also directed Tammy Fit The Eyes of Tammy Faye wish God willing Jessica Chestion wear her oscar for this year UM, and I was curious. I actually looked over at my husband we were watching it. When Andrew Garfield drives up in the car with his new car, She's like, we can't afford this car and he's like, fake, do you make it?

And sorry? But like her whole trajectory was faking it until she made it, getting security guards just for that that aura, just if you know, people would say she has all the security. I mean they must be protecting something real, and it's actually no. You build up around you and then people will believe whatever you tell them. I think it automatically, psychologically makes you think, well, there's got to be some there there if all of this is around her. And I think she was brilliant at

at appearances. But it's interesting that you say fomo because I think that is so perceptive because George Saltz said, I'm ninety years old, and she says, what a vibrant ninety year old he is or something. And I think it is this clash of old, established business practices and success coming up against this brash, new generation of entrepreneurs. And I think that makes people feel old, entrenched and

as my daughter would say, choogy. And I think it's it's so well illustrated with the Walgreens guy, right, you have the I guess chief medical Operator or whatever he was, and he's played so brilliantly by the guy from Ferris Bueller. What's his name, Amanda Allan Ruck, Alan Ruck. And it's so clear that that this character, this man was going through kind of almost a professional midlife crisis, if you will. Listening to Katie Perry, you know, singing that song what

is that UK? You know, this guy just wants to be a part of the action. He wants to be where business is going. And you know, I think with all these business pressures that some of these people saw her as this almost messionic figure who was going to try transform industry for the better and not really necessarily you know, thinking about improving healthcare, but improving the bottom line. Right, I do wonder if that's is this how things get done?

I mean, I thought it was necessary for me to be an audience member watching the show because I wanted to know what it could have been like inside of her head um, and then like being able to play her, I really really cared, Like I really wanted there to be something good in there. Um, What is good about Elizabeth Holmes? Oh? I mean I don't know. People say, you know, so what do you think about her? And

I'm like, I don't really know her. I spent you know, seven months of my life playing a version of her, my version of her, But the she's a real human being and she's out there walking around with a baby and a family, and I'm like, I have no idea what she could possibly be thinking. Because of all the things that she's done, all the things she put into play that are really hard to watch and really hard to understand and really hard to excuse. You know, she's

also a real person. So I think what's good about her is that she was very disciplined, and I don't know she was passionate. I guess that's a good. Well, what do you do with it when you have that passion? Like, it's it's all about what you do with it, It's all about the journey but it's also what motivates that passion, right, and that to me is still a gigantic question mark. That's the thing, Like what was she afraid of? That's it, I think are in our story. She cared about her

parents and she was afraid of failing them. I was able to relate to her because she's also like a contemporary of mine. We you know, we're a little socially offered to the school. We were on the dance team. We you know, listened to probably some of the same music. Like that was the easy step to to to relate to. But the rest of it, you know, as it is, it as more stuff came to light, it's just so hard to think about the things that are good. But I think she there's got to be something right or

is that just what I want to believe? We'll be right back. I'm wonder if Elizabeth will ever tell her own story. So much has been written about her. She should like she should, and also like will she see the dropout? I don't know she I don't think she should watch the show. I really don't. I mean, it's there's we made up. We made up. A lot of it is imagined reality. It's a TV show. I think she should. I mean, everybody deserves to have a a

chance to speak their minds, right. Um, maybe she's waiting to write a memoir, you know, like wouldn't we all love to know from her perspective? I mean, we're trying to get some perspective here on the show for fans of her story. But um, and some of the motivations behind her choices, like what she could have been thinking. But I want to I want to read that book. I want her to be the narrator of her own book. But do you think we'll ever hear the real story

if it's from her perspective? Or she'll continue to manipulate an audience? You know, Will we ever get to know the real Elizabeth Holmes? I guess is the question? Maybe we're not meant to. Maybe that's just one of life's like questions. I can tell you for sure, she's inventing something new right now. I don't think you can stop her, and so maybe we'll never understand that kind of drive.

You know. I got to go to work every day and play this enigma, and then I got to go home and my family, you know, So it was it's interesting to walk around in her shoes for a minute, and I, you know, I don't endy her, and I hope she comes up with something that does save the world, because we all have to come back, don't we. That was Amanda Seyfrid. By the way, you can watch the Dropout on Hulu now and it's based on the podcast of the same name, which is also excellent, So go

catch up. The finale airs on April seven, and it's great. Next Question with Katie Kurik is a production of I Heart Media and Katie Kurik Media. The executive producers are Me, Katie Curic, and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements and Adriana Fasio. The show is edited and mixed by Derrick Clements. For more information about today's episode, or to sign up for my morning newsletter,

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